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I had thought about changing the awards titles for the Elves category
because it would be difficult to make the banners. So I opened the poll.

6 of you voted to change them.

But then Tinni did make some banners for these guys. Nine of them.

I'd hate for her banners to go to waste by changing the names.

That said, I can make 6 or 7 banners if I do change them.

So, let's hold the poll and open some discussion on the matter.

I'm torn.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
> I had thought about changing the awards titles for the Elves

category

> because it would be difficult to make the banners. So I opened the

poll.

>
> 6 of you voted to change them.
>
> But then Tinni did make some banners for these guys. Nine of them.
>
> I'd hate for her banners to go to waste by changing the names.
>
> That said, I can make 6 or 7 banners if I do change them.
>
> So, let's hold the poll and open some discussion on the matter.
>
> I'm torn.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel

I actually agree with Tinni about doing the Noldar, Vanyar, and
Teleri Kindreds. All other kindreds of Elves sprang from these three
groups except for the Avari, whom we never hear of after Tolkien
tells us they stayed behind.

*looks around sheepieshly* Actually Ainaechoiriel the final banner
count is as follows,

Ingwe Awards: 2

Elu Thingol Awards: 6

Turgon Awards: 6

I changed some of the Elu Thingol Awards since I wasn't hundred
percent happy with them. I'll stop now and let you guys get on with
deciding what to do.

My two cents on the topic. If you use the names you are proposing
than people can use images from the movie. That is the only benefit
I can see. Will that get more people making banners.... I think that
if you muses decided to co-operate than it doesn't matter the amount
of resources you have to play with.

My initial problem with the award names where that my brain said I
have to include Ingwe, Thingol and Turgon. Which is not easy to do.
Than I just got inspired and I have made 14 banners. I think it's
just a matter of when inspiration hits. Of course the thing with me
was that I knew where to go to get hold of some pretty fantasy
pictures.

-Tinni

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
> I had thought about changing the awards titles for the Elves

category

> because it would be difficult to make the banners. So I opened

the poll.

>
> 6 of you voted to change them.
>
> But then Tinni did make some banners for these guys. Nine of them.
>
> I'd hate for her banners to go to waste by changing the names.
>
> That said, I can make 6 or 7 banners if I do change them.
>
> So, let's hold the poll and open some discussion on the matter.
>
> I'm torn.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond

said, "for

> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- gwathyg <me_elf6226@charter.net> wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I had thought about changing the awards titles for the Elves
> category
> > because it would be difficult to make the banners. So I opened the
> poll.
> >
> > 6 of you voted to change them.

I voted to change them because I thought it would be easier for banner-makers
to get artwork for more well known places/people. Tinni's suggestion was good,
but I also liked Lothlorien, etc. *grin* Maybe instead of poll to just change
them, put up the actual name suggestions to vote on?

>--- gwathyg <me_elf6226@charter.net> wrote:
>> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I had thought about changing the awards titles for the Elves
>> category
>> > because it would be difficult to make the banners. So I opened the
>> poll.
>> >
>> > 6 of you voted to change them.
>
>I voted to change them because I thought it would be easier for banner-makers
>to get artwork for more well known places/people. Tinni's
>suggestion was good,
>but I also liked Lothlorien, etc. *grin* Maybe instead of poll to just change
>them, put up the actual name suggestions to vote on?
>

I voted to change them to give the artists more artwork to use.
However, using the space pictures is a creative touch. It depends on
what the awards are mean to convey: the elves or their kingdoms. If
kingdoms then which Age?

Antoinette

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- antoinette_brenion@eee.org wrote:

> I voted to change them to give the artists more artwork to use.
> However, using the space pictures is a creative touch. It depends on
> what the awards are mean to convey: the elves or their kingdoms. If
> kingdoms then which Age?
>
> Antoinette

What about First Age for First Place, Second Age for Second? etc...?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gwathyg [mailto:me_elf6226@charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:18 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> Titles. Please discuss.

I'm digesting together all the posts on this thus far.

> I actually agree with Tinni about doing the Noldar, Vanyar,
> and Teleri Kindreds. All other kindreds of Elves sprang from
> these three groups except for the Avari, whom we never hear
> of after Tolkien tells us they stayed behind.

Well, if I do with that, then I'm going to do with the kings and their
kingdoms. I just don't like short names. ;-) The Morgoth Award is bothering
me. Doesn't that guy have some kind of title I can tack on? At least I
could put "son of Earendil" onto poor Elros. "The Elros Award" is just far
too bland.

Tinni said:

> *looks around sheepieshly* Actually Ainaechoiriel the final
> banner count is as follows,
>
> Ingwe Awards: 2
>
> Elu Thingol Awards: 6
>
> Turgon Awards: 6

Whew, okay, I think I got them all this time.

> I changed some of the Elu Thingol Awards since I wasn't
> hundred percent happy with them. I'll stop now and let you
> guys get on with deciding what to do.

And I think I've got all that straight.

> My two cents on the topic. If you use the names you are
> proposing than people can use images from the movie. That is
> the only benefit I can see. Will that get more people making
> banners.... I think that if you muses decided to co-operate
> than it doesn't matter the amount of resources you have to play with.

Yes, that was my reason for changing the names. And I admit that I found
about four good picks I could use for Lothlorien and two for Imladris.

> My initial problem with the award names where that my brain
> said I have to include Ingwe, Thingol and Turgon. Which is
> not easy to do.
> Than I just got inspired and I have made 14 banners. I think
> it's just a matter of when inspiration hits. Of course the
> thing with me was that I knew where to go to get hold of some
> pretty fantasy pictures.

Right. It'd be great if we got some great artists to draw these guys. They'd
have to be original, of course, because no one has filmed them. I suppose
one could always take Unnamed Elf in the Corner from a pic and call him
Turgon or Thingol, etc. But yeah, otherwise, you have to get in spired to
use something else.

Otherwise we're left with people who can manage to throw two pics together
on the computer an call it a banner. That's me. I think I made some pretty
good looking banners, but it is limited to what was filmed. Or, like you
said, knowing where to go to get some pretty fantasy pictures.

Larian Elensar said:

> I voted to change them because I thought it would be easier
> for banner-makers to get artwork for more well known
> places/people. Tinni's suggestion was good, but I also liked
> Lothlorien, etc. *grin* Maybe instead of poll to just change
> them, put up the actual name suggestions to vote on?

Me, too! Found some pretty pics! Eryn Lasgalen would have been harder.

Well, I would still only go with those two groupings of names thus far.

Antoinette said:

> I voted to change them to give the artists more artwork to use.
> However, using the space pictures is a creative touch. It
> depends on what the awards are mean to convey: the elves or
> their kingdoms. If kingdoms then which Age?

They're just meant to convey awards. Don't read too much into them. They
are just titles. I do, however, as I said above, like lofty sounding ones.
I don't like the short, short names.

As to which age?

Well, if we go with kingdoms and we are trying to hit the three main
branches of Elvendom...then we kind of have to go with 1st. For the Vanyar,
we have Ingwe because they're mostly all off in Valinor. For the
Teleri/Sindar, we have Elu Thingol and Doriath. For the Noldor, yeah there
were several, but I think I like Turgon the best. I do carry my anti-Feanor
and lesser anti-Noldor prejudice into the making of awards titles. Like I
said, the only way Feanor gets to be on any award is for an award for bad
guys! I'm really not on good terms with his kids (hold 'em back, Tinni, we
don't want another Kinslaying on our hands). The others (Finrod, Turgon,
etc.) were just not bad guys so much but they were under the Curse. Turgon
had a nice thing going up there in Goldolin. My buddy Voronwe (my favorite
Noldor) was sent out by him. The whole Tuor finds the helmet, etc.,
prophecy thing leads back to Gondolin. He sort of kept himself out of the
fray most of the time. So, to make that long, rambly story short, of all
the Noldor kings, I'd take him.

Who do we have in the 2nd Age? Well, one could figure Ingwe's still there.
Who is the Teleri/Sindar king at this time? Oropher? Late 2nd perhaps.
Gil-Galad for the Noldor?

3rd: Ingwe is a long-lasting fellow. Gil-Galad, alas is not. But we do
have Galadriel in Lothlorien, though if that was an award, she'd have to
share with Celeborn. (And are they really king and queen?) And then
Thranduil for the Teleri/Sindar.

1st is just much more cut & dry. Ingwe may have been around all that time,
but he's really only mentioned, noted, etc. in the 1st. Everybody off in
Valinor gets sort of left behind by the camera, so to speak.

Larian also said:

>What about First Age for First Place, Second Age for Second? etc...?

Well, Ingwe gets the first by default. But who for Teleri/Sindar in the
second? Third, the only King mentioned is Thranduil. Galadriel and Celeborn
are the Lord and Lady of Lothlorien but are they king and queen? Elrond
would take issue with being called King, I think. So there is a difference.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

>
> Well, if we go with kingdoms and we are trying to hit the three

main

> branches of Elvendom...then we kind of have to go with 1st. For

the Vanyar,

> we have Ingwe because they're mostly all off in Valinor. For the
> Teleri/Sindar, we have Elu Thingol and Doriath. For the Noldor,

yeah there

> were several, but I think I like Turgon the best. I do carry my

anti-Feanor

> and lesser anti-Noldor prejudice into the making of awards

titles. Like I

> said, the only way Feanor gets to be on any award is for an award

for bad

> guys! I'm really not on good terms with his kids (hold 'em back,

Tinni, we

> don't want another Kinslaying on our hands). The others (Finrod,

Turgon,

> etc.) were just not bad guys so much but they were under the

Curse. Turgon

> had a nice thing going up there in Goldolin. My buddy Voronwe (my

favorite

> Noldor) was sent out by him. The whole Tuor finds the helmet,

etc.,

> prophecy thing leads back to Gondolin. He sort of kept himself

out of the

> fray most of the time. So, to make that long, rambly story short,

of all

> the Noldor kings, I'd take him.
>

Well here are my suggestions for award names,

1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award
2. Finwe first king of the Noldor award
3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award

or

1. The Vanyan award for creativity
2. The Teleri award for inspiration
3. The Noldor award for ingeunity

-Tinni who had a very hard time containing Maglor from doing some
serious damage :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@fanfiction.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> Titles. Please discuss.
>
>
> Well here are my suggestions for award names,
>
> 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first king
> of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award

These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind in Valinor?

> 1. The Vanyan award for creativity
> 2. The Teleri award for inspiration
> 3. The Noldor award for ingeunity

These are not. Because they are each "for" something, and thus would need
to be judged individually with each reader looking for those things as they
read each story. Nope. The only thing these winners have to be are Elf
stories. The best Elf stories as judged by the readers writing why they
liked them. The quantity of what they write making the difference.

> -Tinni who had a very hard time containing Maglor from doing
> some serious damage :)

Well, Legolas and Mablung are both very good with a bow. But they really
don't want to be involved in any Kinslaying.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> > Titles. Please discuss.
> >
> >
> > Well here are my suggestions for award names,
> >
> > 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first king
> > of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award
>
> These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind in

Valinor?

Finwë went to Valinor, came back, and then brought the Noldorin
people back to Valinor where her ruled for roughly 9,000 years. He is
the first king of the Noldor. But my issue here is with Elwë (who
*is* Elu Thingol). He never even went to Valinor, he fell in love
with Melian in Beleriand. His younger brother Olwë took what remained
of the "Teleri" (who weren't Teleri until they finally came to
Valinor) and brought them across the Sea to Alqualondë in Valinor. If
there is going to be a lord of the Teleri award, it should go to
Olwë, not Elwë/Thingol.

Oops! Elwe was one of the three, along with Finwe and Ingwe, and he
brought the Teleri back to Beleriand, and that is when he fell in
love with Melian. His people waited, but couldn't find him and that
is when Olwe took some of the Teleri over. He eventually came back
out of the woods to what was left of his people and founded Doriath.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...> wrote:
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> > > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> > > Titles. Please discuss.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well here are my suggestions for award names,
> > >
> > > 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first king
> > > of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award
> >
> > These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind in
> Valinor?
>
> Finwë went to Valinor, came back, and then brought the Noldorin
> people back to Valinor where her ruled for roughly 9,000 years. He
is
> the first king of the Noldor. But my issue here is with Elwë (who
> *is* Elu Thingol). He never even went to Valinor, he fell in love
> with Melian in Beleriand. His younger brother Olwë took what
remained
> of the "Teleri" (who weren't Teleri until they finally came to
> Valinor) and brought them across the Sea to Alqualondë in Valinor.
If
> there is going to be a lord of the Teleri award, it should go to
> Olwë, not Elwë/Thingol.

I thought that's what I said. ??? The point was that both of the
others went to Valinor, but Thingol never went there.

> Oops! Elwe was one of the three, along with Finwe and Ingwe, and

he

> brought the Teleri back to Beleriand, and that is when he fell in
> love with Melian. His people waited, but couldn't find him and

that

> is when Olwe took some of the Teleri over. He eventually came back
> out of the woods to what was left of his people and founded Doriath.
>
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...> wrote:
> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel"

<mefaadmin@e...>

> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> > > > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> > > > Titles. Please discuss.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well here are my suggestions for award names,
> > > >
> > > > 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first king
> > > > of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award
> > >
> > > These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind

in

> > Valinor?
> >
> > Finwë went to Valinor, came back, and then brought the Noldorin
> > people back to Valinor where her ruled for roughly 9,000 years.

He

> is
> > the first king of the Noldor. But my issue here is with Elwë (who
> > *is* Elu Thingol). He never even went to Valinor, he fell in love
> > with Melian in Beleriand. His younger brother Olwë took what
> remained
> > of the "Teleri" (who weren't Teleri until they finally came to
> > Valinor) and brought them across the Sea to Alqualondë in

Valinor.

> If
> > there is going to be a lord of the Teleri award, it should go to
> > Olwë, not Elwë/Thingol.

ok - I think I see what you are saying. Elwe/Thingol did go and come
back, but didn't go back. He brought the Sindar/Teleri up from
Cuivienen, but then didn't lead them oversea. He stayed and was lord
of the Sindar, his brother Olwe completed the journey and was lord of
the Teleri in Aman.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...> wrote:
> I thought that's what I said. ??? The point was that both of the
> others went to Valinor, but Thingol never went there.
>
> > Oops! Elwe was one of the three, along with Finwe and Ingwe,
and
> he
> > brought the Teleri back to Beleriand, and that is when he fell in
> > love with Melian. His people waited, but couldn't find him and
> that
> > is when Olwe took some of the Teleri over. He eventually came
back
> > out of the woods to what was left of his people and founded
Doriath.
> >
> >
> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...>
wrote:
> > > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel"
> <mefaadmin@e...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> > > > > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category
Award
> > > > > Titles. Please discuss.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well here are my suggestions for award names,
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first
king
> > > > > of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award
> > > >
> > > > These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind
> in
> > > Valinor?
> > >
> > > Finwë went to Valinor, came back, and then brought the Noldorin
> > > people back to Valinor where her ruled for roughly 9,000 years.
> He
> > is
> > > the first king of the Noldor. But my issue here is with Elwë
(who
> > > *is* Elu Thingol). He never even went to Valinor, he fell in
love
> > > with Melian in Beleriand. His younger brother Olwë took what
> > remained
> > > of the "Teleri" (who weren't Teleri until they finally came to
> > > Valinor) and brought them across the Sea to Alqualondë in
> Valinor.
> > If
> > > there is going to be a lord of the Teleri award, it should go
to
> > > Olwë, not Elwë/Thingol.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...> wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> > > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> > > Titles. Please discuss.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well here are my suggestions for award names,
> > >
> > > 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first king
> > > of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award
> >
> > These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind in
> Valinor?
>
> Finwë went to Valinor, came back, and then brought the Noldorin
> people back to Valinor where her ruled for roughly 9,000 years. He

is

Orome chose Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe to come to valinor and go back and
convince their respective people to come to valinor. They did. Elwe
say the light of the two trees at the same time as Ingwe and Finwe.
Elwe was appointed king of all Teleri by the Valar when the march
started. Of course during the march the Teleri kept breaking off,
thus becoming Nandor under the leadership of Lenwe, going to aman
under the leadership of Olwe and remaining in middle-earth under the
lordship of Elwe and Melian. This having been said, if anyone has a
claim to the title of the king of all teleri it's Elwe Elu Thingol.

-Tinni

> the first king of the Noldor. But my issue here is with Elwë (who
> *is* Elu Thingol). He never even went to Valinor, he fell in love
> with Melian in Beleriand. His younger brother Olwë took what

remained

> of the "Teleri" (who weren't Teleri until they finally came to
> Valinor) and brought them across the Sea to Alqualondë in Valinor.

If

> there is going to be a lord of the Teleri award, it should go to
> Olwë, not Elwë/Thingol.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Tinni" <tinni@f...> wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...> wrote:
> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel"

<mefaadmin@e...>

> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 5:50 PM
> > > > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> > > > Titles. Please discuss.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well here are my suggestions for award names,
> > > >
> > > > 1. Ingwe high king of all the Eldar award 2. Finwe first king
> > > > of the Noldor award 3. Elwe high king of all Teleri award
> > >
> > > These are a possibility. Was Finwe the one who stayed behind

in

> > Valinor?
> >
> > Finwë went to Valinor, came back, and then brought the Noldorin
> > people back to Valinor where her ruled for roughly 9,000 years.

He

> is
>
> Orome chose Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe to come to valinor and go back

and

> convince their respective people to come to valinor. They did. Elwe
> say the light of the two trees at the same time as Ingwe and Finwe.
> Elwe was appointed king of all Teleri by the Valar when the march
> started. Of course during the march the Teleri kept breaking off,
> thus becoming Nandor under the leadership of Lenwe, going to aman
> under the leadership of Olwe and remaining in middle-earth under

the

> lordship of Elwe and Melian. This having been said, if anyone has a
> claim to the title of the king of all teleri it's Elwe Elu Thingol.
>
> -Tinni

However, Thingol never returned to Valinor, so in Valinor the High
King of the Teleri was Olwë. Why should we have two Kings from
Valinor and one from Middle-earth? It doesn't make sense to me.
*creases brow*

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gwathyg [mailto:me_elf6226@charter.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:07 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> Titles. Please discuss.
>
>
> However, Thingol never returned to Valinor, so in Valinor the
> High King of the Teleri was Olwë. Why should we have two
> Kings from Valinor and one from Middle-earth? It doesn't make
> sense to me.
> *creases brow*

Yep. Which is another reason why the names should change to the thre places
Elves still remained in Middle Earth at the time of LOTR.

I like the kings and the kingdoms but there are more than 3. Which makes
things complicated. Why Elwe and not Olwe? Why all Valinorian Elves? Why
all Middle-Earth Elves? Why this one and that one. Why not Legolas?

Down girl. He's all over your office walls. Leave it at that.

Sorry, got a bit carried away there.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gwathyg [mailto:me_elf6226@c...]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:07 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> > Titles. Please discuss.
> >
> >
> > However, Thingol never returned to Valinor, so in Valinor the
> > High King of the Teleri was Olwë. Why should we have two
> > Kings from Valinor and one from Middle-earth? It doesn't make
> > sense to me.
> > *creases brow*
>
> Yep. Which is another reason why the names should change to the

three places

> Elves still remained in Middle Earth at the time of LOTR.

Wow. Hey ladies? I think I have determined Ainae is brilliant.

>
> I like the kings and the kingdoms but there are more than 3. Which

makes

> things complicated. Why Elwe and not Olwe? Why all Valinorian

Elves? Why

> all Middle-Earth Elves? Why this one and that one. Why not

Legolas?

>
> Down girl. He's all over your office walls. Leave it at that.
>
> Sorry, got a bit carried away there.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel

Hee hee. You've pegged me. I don't even know you! *is freaked out*
How about we make things complicated and do Arwen, Legolas and
Galadriel? j/k

>
> However, Thingol never returned to Valinor, so in Valinor the High
> King of the Teleri was Olwë. Why should we have two Kings from
> Valinor and one from Middle-earth? It doesn't make sense to me.
> *creases brow*

Why can't we have two kings from Valinor and one from Middle-earth?
Why look at it that way at all? Why not think of it as using the
names of the original kings of the three races? That's how I was
looking at it.

Look if we are going to nit-pick on every little details we might as
well cancel the awards because nothing is going to get done. I mean
with the current names I can ask why only silmarillion elves? With
the proposed names changes I can ask why only later day kingdoms
when the hayday of the elves was the really before the second age
i.e. long before the founding of Greenwood the great, Imladris and
Lothlorien. I don't think there is an end to this arguement.

I think in the end you have to pick elves that the majority of the
people like and KNOW and represent what elves are all about, the
good, the bad and the ugly. Elves who inspire people to put in the
effort to make something. And I think that's the problem. Ingwe,
Turgon and Elu Thingol are not the most popular elves out there. I
know people will disagree with me, specially on Turgon and Thingol,
but if you compare them to elves like Glorfindel, Legolas, Maedhros,
Fingon, Feanor, Ecthelion, Maglor and the likes you'll agree for one
reason or another Ingwe, Turgon and Thingol just don't inspire
people as much as others.

Places are a different again. Gondolin, Imladris, Mirkwood are the
most popular setting for fanfiction. As is Lothlorien and Doriath.
But how would you differenciate between them? Who would be first,
who would be second or third. These places were all very successful
in their own way and if you really want to pick on something you
can. I mean I wouldn't put Gondolin in front of Mirkwood but other's
would turn their noise up at the rustic dwelling of the simple
woodelves and go for the gleaming white towers of Gondolin.

I mean... basically I think you go for names that inspire people not
what allows for movie images to be used or be too hung-up on all of
them being from the first age or third age or all the elves living
in the same place or whatever. -Tinni

> Yep. Which is another reason why the names should change to the
>thre places
> Elves still remained in Middle Earth at the time of LOTR.
>
> I like the kings and the kingdoms but there are more than 3.
>Which makes
> things complicated. Why Elwe and not Olwe? Why all Valinorian
>Elves? Why
> all Middle-Earth Elves? Why this one and that one. Why not
>Legolas?
>
> Down girl. He's all over your office walls. Leave it at that.
>
> Sorry, got a bit carried away there.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>

Glorfindel: I have a suggestion.

Tinni: We are listening.

Glorfindel: Well how about "Glorfindel of the Golden flower/Gondolin
Award" for first prize. See I have golden hair and you mortals give
gold for first place.

Tinni: Interesting go on.

Glorfindel: We can have "Elu Thingol Greycloke of Doriath Award" or
the "Celeborn of Lothlorien Award" for second prize since they have
silver hair and it makes sense to give silver of second place.

Tinni: Okay.

Glorfindel: Lastly, "Maedhros Lord of Himring Award" for third prize
since he has bronzy hair.

Tinni: Well Ainaechoiriel what do you think? I know you don't like
Feanor and his sons but a lot of people do and Maedhros is by far
the most popular Feanorian around, not to mention one of the most
popular elves around. I am willing to bet that more people will make
banner for Maedhros than any other elf (except maybe Legolas).

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Tinni" <tinni@f...> wrote:

> >
> > However, Thingol never returned to Valinor, so in Valinor the

High

> > King of the Teleri was Olwë. Why should we have two Kings from
> > Valinor and one from Middle-earth? It doesn't make sense to me.
> > *creases brow*
>
> Why can't we have two kings from Valinor and one from Middle-earth?
> Why look at it that way at all? Why not think of it as using the
> names of the original kings of the three races? That's how I was
> looking at it.
>
> Look if we are going to nit-pick on every little details we might

as

> well cancel the awards because nothing is going to get done. I mean
> with the current names I can ask why only silmarillion elves? With
> the proposed names changes I can ask why only later day kingdoms
> when the hayday of the elves was the really before the second age
> i.e. long before the founding of Greenwood the great, Imladris and
> Lothlorien. I don't think there is an end to this arguement.
>
> I think in the end you have to pick elves that the majority of the
> people like and KNOW and represent what elves are all about, the
> good, the bad and the ugly. Elves who inspire people to put in the
> effort to make something. And I think that's the problem. Ingwe,
> Turgon and Elu Thingol are not the most popular elves out there. I
> know people will disagree with me, specially on Turgon and Thingol,
> but if you compare them to elves like Glorfindel, Legolas,

Maedhros,

> Fingon, Feanor, Ecthelion, Maglor and the likes you'll agree for

one

> reason or another Ingwe, Turgon and Thingol just don't inspire
> people as much as others.
>
> Places are a different again. Gondolin, Imladris, Mirkwood are the
> most popular setting for fanfiction. As is Lothlorien and Doriath.
> But how would you differenciate between them? Who would be first,
> who would be second or third. These places were all very successful
> in their own way and if you really want to pick on something you
> can. I mean I wouldn't put Gondolin in front of Mirkwood but

other's

> would turn their noise up at the rustic dwelling of the simple
> woodelves and go for the gleaming white towers of Gondolin.
>
> I mean... basically I think you go for names that inspire people

not

> what allows for movie images to be used or be too hung-up on all of
> them being from the first age or third age or all the elves living
> in the same place or whatever. -Tinni

If that's the case we should quit the whole argument and do whatever
it is that Ainae wants. I don't find any of those first Elves very
inspiring, but in the end it's her decision. I think if I were her
(and I'm gonna say this as if I were posting under this subject for
the first time) I would do Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri. It's familiar
to casual readers, it's passable, and with the size these banners
need to be, perhaps shorter titles are a good thing. :)

>
> If that's the case we should quit the whole argument and do

whatever

> it is that Ainae wants. I don't find any of those first Elves very
> inspiring, but in the end it's her decision. I think if I were her
> (and I'm gonna say this as if I were posting under this subject

for

> the first time) I would do Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri. It's

familiar

> to casual readers, it's passable, and with the size these banners
> need to be, perhaps shorter titles are a good thing. :)

Well my last contribution to this discussion,

1. Vanyarant - The most beautiful of the elves Award

2. Noldorant - The most skilled of the elves Award

3. Teleriant - The most musical of the elves Award

In case you are wondering Vanyarant roughly means Gift of the Vanya,
Noldorant roughly means Gift of the Noldor and the Teleriant roughy
means Gift of the Teleri. -Tinni

It looks like this is something you'll probably end up having to make
an executive decision on, Ainae. For what it's worth, my opinion is
that we should go with places. Why? Because firstly, you'll never get
everyone to agree on which Elves to use for the awards. Everyone has
their favorites, including me, and we could all more than likely come
up with different reasons why any of the various Elves would be
suitable.

Secondly, because once you take the focus down to an individual Elf,
it's going to narrow the scope as far as what banners can be made.
Even if you go with the main Elven groups, it's going to narrow the
scope. 'Cause I'm sitting here thinking how difficult that's going to
be to come up with a variety of appropriate pictures to signify those
groups.

If we go with places, it's going to be more likely to give us both a
bigger variety and larger amount of banner entries. In my opinion, it
should basically come down to which choices are going to offer a
bigger creative scope for people to make banners with. And for
places, I like the Lothlorien and Imladris categories but might
suggest the Gray Havens as an option as well since Mirkwood/Eryn
Lasgalen is already represented and because the Gray Havens was
always a fairly important Elvish place and there are a fair amount of
pictures and representations of it.

I'm also having the same problems with making banners for the Numenor
categories. I've had a few ideas for the banners, but those are
difficult people to find visual representations for, which is
probably why there haven't been any entries on them so far. Although
I haven't been able to think of any other viable suggestions for
Numenor so far. It's a tough one.

Anna




--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
> I had thought about changing the awards titles for the Elves

category

> because it would be difficult to make the banners. So I opened the

poll.

>
> 6 of you voted to change them.
>
> But then Tinni did make some banners for these guys. Nine of them.
>
> I'd hate for her banners to go to waste by changing the names.
>
> That said, I can make 6 or 7 banners if I do change them.
>
> So, let's hold the poll and open some discussion on the matter.
>
> I'm torn.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond

said, "for

> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andreth/Anna [mailto:tawmt@cimtel.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:47 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> Titles. Please discuss.
>
> It looks like this is something you'll probably end up having
> to make an executive decision on, Ainae. For what it's worth,
> my opinion is that we should go with places. Why? Because
> firstly, you'll never get everyone to agree on which Elves to
> use for the awards. Everyone has their favorites, including
> me, and we could all more than likely come up with different
> reasons why any of the various Elves would be suitable.

Yes, that does seem to be the case. At least, if I do have to make an
Executive Decision, it'll be over a less controversial topic this time.
Just your usual "Which-Elf-Is-Best-Bickering. Which is just a little bit
too fun to stop just yet. Gotta tease Tinni just a bit more.

So I'll skip to her e-mail and then come back to you:

Tinni (and Glorfindel) said:

>Glorfindel: Lastly, "Maedhros Lord of Himring Award" for third prize since

he has bronzy hair.

Um, I thought third place was Bronze. Got any bronze haired guys?

>Tinni: Well Ainaechoiriel what do you think? I know you don't like Feanor

Yep.

> and his sons

Yep again.

>but a lot of people do and Maedhros is by far the most popular Feanorian

around, not to mention one of the most popular elves around. I am willing to
bet that more people will make banner for Maedhros than any other elf
(except maybe Legolas).

Yep, big except there. But let's get back to Maedhros for a moment. There I
was reading the Silmarillion and I think of all the brothers (Feanor's
bunch) he was the best. He didn't want his dad to burn the ships and
such.... But then, as time goes on.... It's Maedhros who turns all warmonger
and Maglor ends up being the one campaigning for Not-Another-Kinslaying....

What made Maedhros change? I thought he was a pretty good guy until that
switch.

Okay, back to Anna for a bit.

> Secondly, because once you take the focus down to an
> individual Elf, it's going to narrow the scope as far as what
> banners can be made.

True. Though Tinni has shown that if one is creative enough, it can still
work. Like an award given by that Elf. That was a cool idea.

> Even if you go with the main Elven groups, it's going to
> narrow the scope. 'Cause I'm sitting here thinking how
> difficult that's going to be to come up with a variety of
> appropriate pictures to signify those groups.

Yes, and they'd be short names.

> If we go with places, it's going to be more likely to give us
> both a bigger variety and larger amount of banner entries. In
> my opinion, it should basically come down to which choices
> are going to offer a bigger creative scope for people to make
> banners with. And for places, I like the Lothlorien and
> Imladris categories but might suggest the Gray Havens as an
> option as well since Mirkwood/Eryn Lasgalen is already
> represented and because the Gray Havens was always a fairly
> important Elvish place and there are a fair amount of
> pictures and representations of it.

Aw gee, leaving out Legolas's homeland.... What about Ithilien? Darn it, I
can't find a way to get him on even one single Award banner. And I have
this utterly squeakable picture of him during Aragorn's coronation....which
is why he's on a button for the whole darn MEFAs. Sigh. You have a point.
But I might put that third location to a poll.

> I'm also having the same problems with making banners for the
> Numenor categories. I've had a few ideas for the banners, but
> those are difficult people to find visual representations
> for, which is probably why there haven't been any entries on
> them so far. Although I haven't been able to think of any
> other viable suggestions for Numenor so far. It's a tough one.

I know. Categorizers? Does it look like we're likely to have enough Numenor
stories to make the category viable? Are there any three places or events
that stand out in the stories of Numenor?

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@fanfiction.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:43 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Hold the poll! Elves Category Award
> Titles. Please discuss.

> Why can't we have two kings from Valinor and one from Middle-earth?
> Why look at it that way at all? Why not think of it as using
> the names of the original kings of the three races? That's
> how I was looking at it.
>
> Look if we are going to nit-pick on every little details we
> might as well cancel the awards because nothing is going to
> get done. I mean with the current names I can ask why only
> silmarillion elves? With the proposed names changes I can ask
> why only later day kingdoms when the hayday of the elves was
> the really before the second age i.e. long before the
> founding of Greenwood the great, Imladris and Lothlorien. I
> don't think there is an end to this arguement.

(Snippage)

> I mean... basically I think you go for names that inspire
> people not what allows for movie images to be used or be too
> hung-up on all of them being from the first age or third age
> or all the elves living in the same place or whatever. -Tinni

You're right about the nit-picking That's one reason I started these awards
myself and didn't go with a committee. Sometimes committees are great.
Other times they just bog things down in endless debate. I don't like being
a dictator, so I open some things up for debate, but yes, there are times
when I just have to say "This is how it is."

So, I think thanks to you and Anna mostly, I've come up with a decision
about this:

We're going with places. Two of them will be Lothlorien and
Imladris/Rivendell (which way?). The third is up for nominations for the
next twenty four hours. At midnight tomorrow night, I'll put up a poll with
those nominations. The poll will be open for two days. The winner becomes
the third spot.

Then I'll put up another poll to determine the order.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Okay, I'm going to delete the original poll. The new poll will come into
existance tomorrow. What needs to happen between now and then is
nominations:

Two of the three Elf awards will be Rivendell/Imladris and Lothlorien.

What will the other one be. (Must be a place)

I'll take the first 6 suggestions and put them into a poll.

And yes, I just have to nominate Greenwood the Great. Not just because it
is Legolas's hometown. But because it is a significant location, playing a
part in both The Hobbit and LOTR. Sauron thought Thranduil had a ring
because he was the only one who managed to stand against him for so long.
Yet Thranduil, we know, had no ring. I think he doesn't get enough respect.
This is the kingdom that lost two thirds of its fighting force to the siege
of Mordo and yet still held Sauron off for many years. Even after Dol Goldur
was torn down and the woods again grew dark, Thranduil's realm held the
darkness at bay. And in the end, we know from the Silm, there was much
fighting under those trees and Thranduil stood victorious in the end.
Greenwood the Great had become Mirkwood but emerged Eryn Lasgalen. I say
that one of those names should be on an Elf award. Mirkwood is out because
it's a The Hobbit, but that leaves two worthy names to go.

Okay, that's my bid. Five more, and state your case! You may sway voters
for the poll. The poll will run for two days. Then we'll decide the order.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

>
> We're going with places. Two of them will be Lothlorien and
> Imladris/Rivendell (which way?). The third is up for nominations

for the

> next twenty four hours. At midnight tomorrow night, I'll put up a

poll with

> those nominations. The poll will be open for two days. The winner

becomes

> the third spot.
>
> Then I'll put up another poll to determine the order.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>

I nominate Beleriand. Why?

1. It includes Doriath, Gondolin, Himring and the Falas. So
basically all the major elven kingdoms this side of the sundering
seas.

2. Broad range with plenty of scope for creativity.

3. Okay I admit it all my banner except the two for Ingwe can be
stay. Selfish reason I know.

4. Lastly, come on what can be cooler than Beleriand.

-Tinni

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
> Okay, I'm going to delete the original poll. The new poll will

come into

> existance tomorrow. What needs to happen between now and then is
> nominations:
>
> Two of the three Elf awards will be Rivendell/Imladris and

Lothlorien.

>
> What will the other one be. (Must be a place)
>
> I'll take the first 6 suggestions and put them into a poll.
>
> And yes, I just have to nominate Greenwood the Great. Not just

because it

> is Legolas's hometown. But because it is a significant location,

playing a

> part in both The Hobbit and LOTR. Sauron thought Thranduil had a

ring

> because he was the only one who managed to stand against him for so

long.

> Yet Thranduil, we know, had no ring. I think he doesn't get enough

respect.

> This is the kingdom that lost two thirds of its fighting force to

the siege

> of Mordo and yet still held Sauron off for many years. Even after

Dol Goldur

> was torn down and the woods again grew dark, Thranduil's realm held

the

> darkness at bay. And in the end, we know from the Silm, there was

much

> fighting under those trees and Thranduil stood victorious in the

end.

> Greenwood the Great had become Mirkwood but emerged Eryn Lasgalen.

I say

> that one of those names should be on an Elf award. Mirkwood is out

because

> it's a The Hobbit, but that leaves two worthy names to go.
>
> Okay, that's my bid. Five more, and state your case! You may sway

voters

> for the poll. The poll will run for two days. Then we'll decide

the order.

>
> --Ainaechoiriel

I would have to say Mithlond (the Grey Havens). It wasn't a very
large kingdom, but to depart Middle-earth forever most Elves went
there so it had quite a bit of significance. Plus you already picked
Eryn Lasgalen...:)

Okay, I'm in agreement with gwathyg about the Grey Havens, but I have
a few more arguments to go with it.

My main point I have to say here is that the elves really do give you
a nice little group of three - "Three for the elven kings under the
sky". I know you've already picked places to be the award titles (and
I agree with this), so Vilya, Nenya and Narya are out of the
question, as are their three bearers.

However, Vilya was given to Elrond by Gil-Galad, so there's your
Rivendell. Galadriel has Nenya, so there you have Lothlorien. Even
though Gandalf has Narya, it was given to him by Cirdan the
Shipwright...who resides at the Grey Havens!

So maybe that's a bit of a round-about way of getting to my decision,
but that's what went through my head last night :P Plus, PJ filmed
the Grey Havens, so that would make banners relatively easy to make :D

- Pervinca

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "gwathyg" <me_elf6226@c...> wrote:
> I would have to say Mithlond (the Grey Havens). It wasn't a very
> large kingdom, but to depart Middle-earth forever most Elves went
> there so it had quite a bit of significance. Plus you already
picked
> Eryn Lasgalen...:)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kate [mailto:bra_chan90@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 5:25 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Elf awards, the new campaign!
>
> Okay, I'm in agreement with gwathyg about the Grey Havens,
> but I have a few more arguments to go with it.
>
> My main point I have to say here is that the elves really do
> give you a nice little group of three - "Three for the elven
> kings under the sky". I know you've already picked places to
> be the award titles (and I agree with this), so Vilya, Nenya
> and Narya are out of the question, as are their three bearers.
>
> However, Vilya was given to Elrond by Gil-Galad, so there's
> your Rivendell. Galadriel has Nenya, so there you have
> Lothlorien. Even though Gandalf has Narya, it was given to
> him by Cirdan the Shipwright...who resides at the Grey Havens!
>
> So maybe that's a bit of a round-about way of getting to my
> decision, but that's what went through my head last night :P
> Plus, PJ filmed the Grey Havens, so that would make banners
> relatively easy to make :D

I was wondering why gwathy left out the fact that it was filmed.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com