Yahoo Forum Archive

This is an archive of the MEFA Yahoo Group, which was shut down by Yahoo in 2019. The archive can be sorted by month and by topic ID. You can use your browser to search by keyword within the month or topic you have open.

JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec
2004---18210426558925263362316285
20051895610753834744697276194358565136
200623166277611713912756676615979
200720257-297299143318583103
2008561335424014127477516090106
2009283-39194101722722153624
201067-14103138129321316330
20111-172625906132758
201230---812276-----
2013------------
2014---------1-2
2015------------
2016------------
2017------------
2018------------
2019---------1--

Msg# 2941

Point Totals and Tie Breaker databases are now posted. Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 9:29:45 Topic ID# 2941
I copied these straight from the MEFAStaff group, using the Export and
Import Data options. Note, because they export and import with a comma
delimiter, all commas in titles or authors were replaced with semicolons so
that they would import into the right columns.

An interesting note, almost all of the ties came down to total number of
characters to break. One was even decided by the count of just 1 character!


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2942

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 9:40:14 Topic ID# 2940
> So, here's a topic: Author comments. They're not as easy to write
as story
> comments, especially when there are multiple nominations for teh
same
> author. Now, if we continue to include author comments, I wouldn't
want to
> limit them because how one writes humor is different from how one
writes
> drama, etc.
>
> So, any suggestions? Should we take them out? Should we leave them
in?
> What should we do?
>

I agree, authors' comments are a problem. I think I wrote over a
hundred story reviews but certainly less than ten author reviews. It's
particularly hard in two scenariors: when the ame author had pieces in
several categories (Zimraphel and Lindelea jump to mind, though I'm
sure there were others). I could really like such authors but not be
able to give them as many votes in each category because I would have
to write twice or however many times as much.

It's also hard to write where an author just has one entry in a
category. I know I found myself not sure what to say about an author
because I had already said it in my story review.

My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it
once. (This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose;
I think a lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would
have probably reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category
to review them in and so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I
know, but I think having all the authors together would really help.

Marta

Msg# 2943

PostMortem Database created Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 9:46:24 Topic ID# 2943
I have posted a 2004 PostMortem database. It has only three fields.
Members can add records, but they cannot edit or delte them.

If you have a topic you'd like discussed (mainly for changes. What did work
can just be posted to the list as it probably won't require any changes),
add a record by filling out the first field: Topic in a nutshell.

Then make a post here. I'll check on the database every once in awhile and
if we don't have any decision on a topic, I'll bring it back up.

So, I've already brought up Author Comments.

I also want to bring up this proposed change: Next year, when we get author
approvals, we also ask THEM to catagorieze their story. Then they can
decide where their story fits.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2944

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 9:51:33 Topic ID# 2940
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:40 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise


>I agree, authors' comments are a problem. I think I wrote over a hundred
story reviews but certainly less than ten author reviews. It's particularly
hard in two scenariors: when the ame author had pieces in several categories
(Zimraphel and Lindelea jump to mind, though I'm sure there were others). I
could really like such authors but not be able to give them as many votes in
each category because I would have to write twice or however many times as
much.

>It's also hard to write where an author just has one entry in a category. I
know I found myself not sure what to say about an author because I had
already said it in my story review.

Yeah a lot of my author reviews ended up sounding like story reviews,
especially if they had only one story in that category. They are definitely
more difficult. Would anyone be interested in me posting a few author
comments from the ASC Awards to see how they were done successfully for so
many years?

>My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it once.
(This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose; I think a
lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would have probably
reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category to review them in and
so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I know, but I think having
all the authors together would really help.

While I acknowledge that difficulty, I still have to say No to this one.
Two reasons: 1) Because as I said before, how one writes drama is different
than how one writes humor. How do you say a poet is better than a novella
author? You can't really compare them. And 2) what you propose would come
down to an Overall Best Author category. That was tried one year with ASC
and it was thrown out in the post-mortem. It is too elitist and far too
inaccruate because of reason #1.

What about allowing copied comments? In other words, I could choose to copy
the same comment that I gave for Dwim in AuthorDrama for AuthorLOTR. I
wouldn't necessarily always choose to do that and could tweak it where I
could (for poetry or drabble or humor, something that is definitely
distinct), but it wouldn't be required that I tweak it.

But only for authors, of course, not sor stories.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2945

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 11:50:58 Topic ID# 2940
<snip>
>Would anyone be interested in me posting a few author
> comments from the ASC Awards to see how they were done successfully
for so
> many years?
>

That would be good.

Ainae, correct me if I'm wrong, but ASC is divided into ENT/TOS/TNG/
DS9/VOY, right? And not subdivided along multiple ways (like we have:
source material, race, genre)? You've spent more time in the Trek
fandom than I have, but it was my impression that most people tend to
write within one show. So I imagine the overlap between characters
isn't quite as great.

That doesn't fix our problem, but it is something to consider.

> >My suggestion? Create an "authors" category.
<snip>
> While I acknowledge that difficulty, I still have to say No to this
one.
> Two reasons: 1) Because as I said before, how one writes drama is
different
> than how one writes humor. How do you say a poet is better than a
novella
> author? You can't really compare them.

Fair enough. I write multiple genres and races and everything, but I
think I write it in basically the same way, the story just molds my
basic technique into one way or a not. So I could easily review all my
stories (Drama, Action, and Romance, Men and Hobbits) stories
together. But that's me. I can see how ot might create problems for
other authors.

> And 2) what you propose would come
> down to an Overall Best Author category. That was tried one year
with ASC
> and it was thrown out in the post-mortem. It is too elitist and far
too
> inaccruate because of reason #1.
>

I can understand that. You're right, this idea wouldn't work very
well.

> What about allowing copied comments? In other words, I could choose
to copy
> the same comment that I gave for Dwim in AuthorDrama for AuthorLOTR.
I
> wouldn't necessarily always choose to do that and could tweak it
where I
> could (for poetry or drabble or humor, something that is definitely
> distinct), but it wouldn't be required that I tweak it.
>
> But only for authors, of course, not sor stories.
>

I like this idea much better. Provided it was properly publicized
(like you did for "Voting ahead" during reading season, so people knew
they could do this), I'd be fine with this idea.

Marta

Msg# 2946

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 13:11:46 Topic ID# 2940
I think this is a good suggestion. One overall authors category would be good
and I'd write more author comments too.

Larian


--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

>
> My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
> however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it
> once. (This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose;
> I think a lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would
> have probably reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category
> to review them in and so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I
> know, but I think having all the authors together would really help.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
>

Msg# 2947

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Viv December 01, 2004 - 13:24:51 Topic ID# 2940
I agree. Perhaps, to avoid that elitist Best Author
thing, there could be Author(Poetry), Author(Drabble),
Author(WIP), etc for each writing *form*, rather for
each individual subcategory. After all, if someone
writes hobbit poetry and orc poetry, it's the same
poet and the style and quality is usually consistent
across subject matter.

That would also cut down on the sheer number of things
to vote on, which was a problem for some folks.

viv


--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think this is a good suggestion. One overall
> authors category would be good
> and I'd write more author comments too.
>
> Larian
>
>
> --- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This
> way people can write
> > however much they want to about an author, and
> only have to write it
> > once. (This also allows them to review more
> authors if they so choose;
> > I think a lot of people were pressed for time at
> the end.) I would
> > have probably reviewed some authors, but was not
> sure which category
> > to review them in and so did not review them in
> any. :-/ My problem, I
> > know, but I think having all the authors together
> would really help.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

Msg# 2948

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by CC December 01, 2004 - 13:25:36 Topic ID# 2940
I agree with this. I know that it is not easy to
categorize authors because some write poetry, some
write drama and some write humor, but maybe we could
have *few* sub-categories inside the authors' one?

I was here shortly while you were discussing all this,
so I am aware I have not read all the reasons given
for so many categories, but simplicity, when it's
possible, is a good thing.

CC

--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I think this is a good suggestion. One overall
> authors category would be good
> and I'd write more author comments too.
>
> Larian
>
>
> --- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This
> way people can write
> > however much they want to about an author, and
> only have to write it
> > once. (This also allows them to review more
> authors if they so choose;
> > I think a lot of people were pressed for time at
> the end.) I would
> > have probably reviewed some authors, but was not
> sure which category
> > to review them in and so did not review them in
> any. :-/ My problem, I
> > know, but I think having all the authors together
> would really help.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Msg# 2949

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 13:27:59 Topic ID# 2940
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]

>
> >My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
> however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it once.
> (This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose; I think a
> lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would have probably
> reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category to review them in and
> so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I know, but I think having
> all the authors together would really help.
>
> While I acknowledge that difficulty, I still have to say No to this one.
> Two reasons: 1) Because as I said before, how one writes drama is different
> than how one writes humor. How do you say a poet is better than a novella
> author? You can't really compare them. And 2) what you propose would come
> down to an Overall Best Author category. That was tried one year with ASC
> and it was thrown out in the post-mortem. It is too elitist and far too
> inaccruate because of reason #1.

I thought a separate authors category was a good idea, but I can see the point
about the different categories. Couldn't you just have subcategories then?
This probably doesn't sound a lot different than what we did this year, except
that there wouldn't be a story and author category for every main category.
Just one authors category with sub-categories for different things like humor,
drama, etc?






>
> What about allowing copied comments? In other words, I could choose to copy
> the same comment that I gave for Dwim in AuthorDrama for AuthorLOTR. I
> wouldn't necessarily always choose to do that and could tweak it where I
> could (for poetry or drabble or humor, something that is definitely
> distinct), but it wouldn't be required that I tweak it.
>
> But only for authors, of course, not sor stories.

This is a good compromise too, copied comments would work well, I'd think.



>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Msg# 2950

Re: Authors categorizing their own stories Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 13:46:17 Topic ID# 2950
I think that's an excellent idea. I ended up asking several of the authors I
nominated which category they thought would work best.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:


>
> I also want to bring up this proposed change: Next year, when we get author
> approvals, we also ask THEM to catagorieze their story. Then they can
> decide where their story fits.
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 2951

Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer distribution. Posted by Larian December 01, 2004 - 14:12:43 Topic ID# 2951
I know Ainae said only three discussions at a time, but I added more
than that to the database so they were up there...a couple of them are
short anyway, and won't require much discussion, I don't think.


I realize we had to make decisions regarding categories, but I thought
it put a few types of stories at a disadvantage, because they had a
lot more competition. For instance, there was a Men category, a Rohan
category, and a Numenor category. A lot of stories could have fit
into Men-or-Rohan, or Men-or-Numenor. On the other hand ALL the
Hobbit and Elves stories were lumped together. I know that the elves,
at least, had sub-categories, but I thought the Men category could
have held Rohan, Numenor, Gondor categories as well, and reduced the
number of main categories. Either that, or have Elves, then
Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, etc categories. The hobbits could
have been split up too, I'm sure, though I'm not familiar enough with
them to suggest other categories.

I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor category?)

Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits,
Men, Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or
Numenor.

Larian

Msg# 2952

Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories Posted by Larian December 01, 2004 - 14:25:59 Topic ID# 2952
I know we needed to get in as much of the fandom as possible this
year, and maybe next year as well, but I was disappointed to find
stories by authors who have not written (or updated wips) in a couple
of years. The ones that were in progress were the ones that really
annoyed me, to be honest. I know real life interrupts, but if a story
hasn't been updated in 2 years, I really have my doubts that it will
be finished, ever, and I regretted the time it took me to read and
vote on some of those.

Anyway, my suggestion is that we have a cutoff date of some
kind...that the wips have been updated within the last 12 months.

Then as the awards continue, they could be limited to stories
published within the last year or so, although that's probably not
realistic just yet...


Larian

Msg# 2953

Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Larian December 01, 2004 - 14:34:47 Topic ID# 2953
I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as
well. I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on
day 1 of the voting season, and all the categories could be voted on
throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking
that if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave
all the categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize
the time the counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need
for an amnesty day.

(I know, the counters were supposed to get breaks and what not, but I
think the six weeks actually made the problem worse, since some of
them ended up disappearing partway through. This way, it's a bit more
concentrated and the end more easily seen.)

My suggestion: Cut the voting season down to two full weeks, and have
all the categories open for the duration.

Msg# 2954

Re: Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 15:01:48 Topic ID# 2952
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:24 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories


>I know we needed to get in as much of the fandom as possible this year, and
maybe next year as well, but I was disappointed to find stories by authors
who have not written (or updated wips) in a couple of years. The ones that
were in progress were the ones that really annoyed me, to be honest. I know
real life interrupts, but if a story hasn't been updated in 2 years, I
really have my doubts that it will be finished, ever, and I regretted the
time it took me to read and vote on some of those.

Well--and I'm saying this as a reminder to everyone--you never need to read
a story you don't want to read. It's great if people read stories they
hadn't planned. That's one of the added benefits of these awards, but I
also know some felt intimidated by the number and didn't they could read
them all and so didn't vote. You don't have to read them all. You can vote
on the ones that you read that you thought deserved it. And if you read a
story and decided it didn't deserve it, you don't have to vote on it at all.


>Anyway, my suggestion is that we have a cutoff date of some kind...that the
wips have been updated within the last 12 months.

I think that is a great idea for WIPs (and I've edited the topic in the
database to say WIPs). Personally, I don't like reading WIPs. Particularly
when it's a long time between updates (because I'll have forgotten what
happened before) and it's particularly unpleasant to find a good WIP given
up on. When I started in this fandom, I got sucked into some WIPs. I still
have a few out there that I'm reading. But now that my infamous spreadsheet
of stories has over 500 complete stories that I'd like to give a shot to,
I'm rather glad to not have to start any new WIPs. I've got plenty of
completed stories to keep me more than busy.

Discuss if you want, otherwise, we'll have a poll on this one soon.

>Then as the awards continue, they could be limited to stories published
within the last year or so, although that's probably not realistic just
yet...

I'm not sure when that will ever be realistic. With ASC, we have one place
where stories are posted, and thus we know exactly what was posted in the
one year time period. With the MEFAs, unless we were to set up an archive
(and I don't particularly want to do that myself), we have to pull from any
and every archive out there (except TolkienOnline) and with 33000+ (I
haven't been there in a few weeks) LOTR stories on ff.net, there's really no
way we can limit the completed stories to those posted in the last year.
You may go out there and find the best LOTR fanfic ever written and find it
was posted in 1976! You'd want it to be elligible, right?

So elligibility on completed stories and WIPS that ARE being updated,
should still be wide open.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2955

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 15:24:03 Topic ID# 2951
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:12 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.



>I know Ainae said only three discussions at a time, but I added more than
that to the database so they were up there...a couple of them are short
anyway, and won't require much discussion, I don't think.

Well, as long as my brain doesn't scramble, and my other bits of life come
to a halt, we should be okay. I just also don't want topics to get lost in
the shuffle.

Oh, and let's remember to edit our subject lines for easier identification.
(I thought of that just after I sent my last reply). This one works because
it identifies the topic and Post-Mortem. But the ones that are just replies
from my original post should be edited. I'll be getting back to them soon.

>I realize we had to make decisions regarding categories, but I thought it
put a few types of stories at a disadvantage, because they had a lot more
competition. For instance, there was a Men category, a Rohan category, and
a Numenor category. A lot of stories could have fit into Men-or-Rohan, or
Men-or-Numenor. On the other hand ALL the Hobbit and Elves stories were
lumped together. I know that the elves, at least, had sub-categories, but I
thought the Men category could have held Rohan, Numenor, Gondor categories
as well, and reduced the number of main categories. Either that, or have
Elves, then Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, etc categories. The hobbits
could have been split up too, I'm sure, though I'm not familiar enough with
them to suggest other categories.

>I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend on
the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan got a bit
more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor category?)

Gondor was a surprise. Who knew it would, have 27 stories?! That's the
thing. The main categories did just sort of happen. Only Mystery and Orcs
were added from those shadow975 and I brainstormed before starting this
whole rigamaroll. ;-) So, this opens up an even bigger can of worms.
Categorization may need a complete overhaul.


>Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits, Men,
Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or Numenor.

First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:

3 topics:
Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit their
intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is a genuine
interest breakup.

Genres, because this is more traditional. Drama, Romance, Humor, etc.
These are also valid. I don't read Romances for instances. Not even Elf
romances.

Time/Books, because like Trek being devided into series, this is a valid
division in the Middle-Earth fandom. And a good fallback if you can't
decide where else to put a story. You can almost always set one in time.

The categories within the topics:
Men, Elves, Hobbits, were obvious choices. Orc was a surprise but it
actually turned out well. Why Rohan and Numenor? Because I thought there
were enough Rohan and Numenor stories out there to make them worthwhile. I
really had no idea Gondor would turn out like it did. So Gondor is
definitely a cadidate for a category of its own. And there was a thought
about a Villains category, too, so that other baddies besides Orcs could
have their spot.

Genres are still pretty self-explantory.

As are Time/Books.

But what about the number? Is it better or worse to have more or less
categories? Ah, that is a big debate still at ASC. Some find a category
with more than 50 stories too intimidating. While others find the explosion
in number of categories ridiculous and wiping out all sense in having awards
to begin with. (What is special about a Best___ Award, when there are 600
Best ___ Awards?)

ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

1. Categorization shall be based on the headers that the
Author provides. The Awards Coordinator may also chose
to catagorize works by other criteria.
2. The lower bound on the categories this year shall require
that all categories contain at least 8 works by at least
2 different authors.
A. The Coordinator will combine categories that are too
small to qualify under the "8x2" rule, with the goal
of fostering meaningful competition between similar
types of works.
B. Any category with 50 or more stories in it will prompt
the coordinator or their designates to look for a division

We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower bound,
though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3 authors
for authors.

Let the debate at MEFA begin....

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2956

Re: Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories Posted by sulriel December 01, 2004 - 15:29:25 Topic ID# 2952
it looks like some great ideas and discussion going on. I'll try to
throw out my 2 cents in a coherent manner.

cutoff dates:
I'm not concerned about how old a story is. I see something of a
problem in the fandom, in that it seems like (for the most part) only
the newer stories get much attention. I like the way the archives
tend to have the newest on top, but many times, once you're off the
front page, your readership drops dramatically. I love see those old
forgotten favorites get another chance in the light.

instead of a 'completed by' cutoff date, I'd rather leave that open
and instead say that a story can only be nominated one time ever.

in regards to WIPs. ...I used to read some, I don't (much) any more
for a couple of reasons. Mainly the aggravation of waiting on
updates, and especially those that you realize, over a long period,
are likely not to be finished. I'm ducking because my own 'longfic'
took me about 18 months to write and I'm **extremely** grateful for
the readers who encouraged me along the way. But I think, especially
for a contest, if it's worth reading, it's worth reading all of it.
I'd prefer not to allow WIPs at all. Once they're finished, they'll
be eligible in their regular category.


(added)===> another thought here, in order to encourage authors who
haven't finished their work ... what about submitting only the
prologue and first chapter, or two chapters of a WIP, (regardless of
how much of it is written only that much would be voted on). ...
that would allow feedback on the characterization and setting up the
plot, etc, without bogging down the readers in 100k words of an
unfinished story.author votes:


I read Aina's posting nixing the idea, but I'm not convinced it
wouldn't be a good idea to only have one author competition. Every
author listed one time no matter how many stories they had nominated,
but I'd recommend placing many more than three. Maybe list the top
three or five in order, and the top 25 as a group. .. something along
those lines. ... My thoughts are this, that regardless of style or
genre, the author speaks to people or they don't. characterization,
plotting, pace and flow ... the same elements are in place
regardless that they are used differently in poetry than they are in
romance or action/adventure.

Sulriel

Msg# 2957

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all Posted by elanor of aquitania December 01, 2004 - 15:33:24 Topic ID# 2953
> I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as
> well. I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on
> day 1 of the voting season, and all the categories could be voted on
> throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

My heartfelt agreement to that !

>
> The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
> suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking
> that if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave
> all the categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize
> the time the counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need
> for an amnesty day.

I agree also to that.

I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on
one of my favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim
because it was categorized as Drama and for my mind it belonged
to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me undistinguished categorization
in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I forgot to vote for a
story I had printed, read, and commented on the print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched
through the e-mails for my comment to remind
Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)

>
> (I know, the counters were supposed to get breaks and what not, but I
> think the six weeks actually made the problem worse, since some of
> them ended up disappearing partway through. This way, it's a bit more
> concentrated and the end more easily seen.)

More agreement ;-)
Though I would make it three weeks or even more for voting,
please think of the Real Life constraints of the voters.

I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time
and then let the counters work for two weeks in the end
_after_ the voting. In this case quite a few voters
would happily help with the counting as I did, presumably.
During voting season I simply had not enough time to set aside
for counting as I struggled to read and to write votes.

For me too it seems easier to shepherd the counters
to do through what they are supposed to do during a short period
then to account for all the Real Life problems of the counters
they are accosted by through such a lengthy time.

In my impression quite a few counters had a problem
with the counting of Amnesty Day votes
which were not updated in the Data base.

>
> My suggestion: Cut the voting season down to two full weeks, and have
> all the categories open for the duration.

My expanded suggestion:
Voting season of 4 weeks or more,
have all categories open for the duration,
and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks
(and as long as is needed).

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 2958

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer distribution. Posted by sulriel December 01, 2004 - 15:33:53 Topic ID# 2951
(trying to be succinct) I agree with the below. to start with some
basics and expand once the numbers reach a max, keeping the smaller
ones above a minimum. I understand and agree (to a point) with the
thought that two many categories can diminish the award, but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine
or twelve people walk away with all the goodies.

***pasted below***
ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

1. Categorization shall be based on the headers that the
Author provides. The Awards Coordinator may also chose
to catagorize works by other criteria.
2. The lower bound on the categories this year shall require
that all categories contain at least 8 works by at least
2 different authors.
A. The Coordinator will combine categories that are too
small to qualify under the "8x2" rule, with the goal
of fostering meaningful competition between similar
types of works.
B. Any category with 50 or more stories in it will prompt
the coordinator or their designates to look for a division

We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower
bound,though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at
least 3 authorsfor authors.

Let the debate at MEFA begin....
**end paste**

Msg# 2959

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing Posted by zafiro\_v December 01, 2004 - 15:35:40 Topic ID# 2951
> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the
lower bound,
> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3
authors
> for authors.
>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>
Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been
here for a while...

CC

Msg# 2960

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 15:39:37 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories



>I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

This one is up for debate, too, I think. I, personally, wouldn't want to
have to vote on them all at once. Having them run in different periods
actually helped me. I didn't use Reading Season well. I was still in Elves
(the first category I started reading) when Voting Season started. Having
Elves and Men stop in 10 days, gave me incentive to hurry up and get to some
other categories. When Hobbits and Orcs ended, I was again prompted to get
over to Rohan and Numenor (which I still managed to miss entirely until
Amnesty Day). I will also say that this is the way ASC does it and that's
why we do it here. We don't have to follow everything they do though. But
it was certainly easier on me to pick up from where they were and just tweak
what needed tweaking.

And yes, there is the bit about faciliatating counting, and yes, you are
right that some did disappear and we had to scramble to count at the end. I
think I ended up counting 16 categories. (Thank you everyone who picked up
the slack! We still had our required 3 different counters per comment!) I
personally liked having 5 days off here and there. I think we could
definitely combine author & story for the same counter though. (I just
finalized that one.) That might keep them around. And if we keep the
catgories running at different times, we could spell it out what time period
the counters are counting for.

>The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking that
if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave all the
categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize the time the
counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need for an amnesty day.


There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all catgories at the same time
and 2) shorten Voting Season.

I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2. I don't think so. I
would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted on. And there was a
poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was too long, too, short, or
just right. The vote was "just right".

I could have used more time! But was glad for a deadline because, hey, I do
have a life. ;-)

Discuss on this one (change the subject line accordingly) and it will go to
poll soon.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2961

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 15:45:36 Topic ID# 2951
-----Original Message-----
From: zafiro_v [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing



> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the
lower bound,
> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3
authors
> for authors.
>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>
Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here for a
while...

CC

Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to provide
them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead Week" for our
Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening of the week. And I
onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to one of my cats becoming
overly aggressive toward another of them.

Thanks, if you would, Larian.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2962

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Viv December 01, 2004 - 15:51:25 Topic ID# 2953
I was out of town for the entire Elves voting season,
and (unexpectedly) on Amnesty day. The voting
schedule, which overlapped and didn't seem to be in
any particular order, was also very confusing. I had
to put the chart on my computer desktop so I'd know
which categories were up for votes on a given day!

I talked to several people who just got frustrated and
gave up.

So, I'm in the the shorter-voting-time + all
categories open camp.

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all
> catgories at the same time
> and 2) shorten Voting Season.
>
> I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2.
> I don't think so. I
> would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted
> on. And there was a
> poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was
> too long, too, short, or
> just right. The vote was "just right".
>
> I could have used more time! But was glad for a
> deadline because, hey, I do
> have a life. ;-)
>
> Discuss on this one (change the subject line
> accordingly) and it will go to
> poll soon.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
> Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that."
> --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth
> Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

Msg# 2963

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer distr Posted by elanor of aquitania December 01, 2004 - 15:54:32 Topic ID# 2951
> I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
> on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
> got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor
> category?)

Heya, this fan of Gondorians supports this question ;-)
Why not a Gondorian category if there is a Rohirrim one?

>
> Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
> troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits,
> Men, Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or
> Numenor.

I understood, Ainaechoiriel wanted as many awards as possible,
other wise I would not understand poetry, drabbles, WIP,
Rohan, Drama etc.

Thus I support a category Gondor.

Drama or Horror, on the other hand, are for me
misleading categories.
I missed one of my favourite Men-LoTR stories
because it was in the category Drama,
and in Horror I read more Silmarillion stories
than Horror stories.

Thus I support a categorization along the main races
and make under categories for Gondor, Rohan,
Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.

I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a under category
for Men, Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line
more along Second age, Early Third Age, Pre-War-of-the-Ring,
War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.

Thus we would have for example
"Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
"Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
If the subcategories have not enough stories
they would be subsumed into one category higher.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 2964

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer d Posted by CC December 01, 2004 - 15:57:25 Topic ID# 2951
> Thus I support a categorization along the main races
> and make under categories for Gondor, Rohan,
> Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.
>
> I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a
> under category
> for Men, Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line
> more along Second age, Early Third Age,
> Pre-War-of-the-Ring,
> War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.
>
> Thus we would have for example
> "Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
> "Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
> If the subcategories have not enough stories
> they would be subsumed into one category higher.
>
I think this is a very good idea.

CC

=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Msg# 2965

Re: Post Mortem topic - length of voting season, / ballot availabil Posted by sulriel December 01, 2004 - 15:57:28 Topic ID# 2965
I read some beforehand and wrote some comments, lost them. wrote
more comments. .. pasted them in the wrong cells. read more, wrote
more. .... pasted those comments in a the document that was 'wanna
read' instead of the 'did read' .... I was thinking for awhile that
maybe I should up the meds. .. *sigh*

once I got the ballots, I had h.e.double-hocky-sticks trying to find
all my earlier comments in their various docs and get them in the
right ballots, but after that it was easy.

I pasted the ballot in an email and saved it in draft. I could click
on the link, read the story, open the draft mail and write my vote,
then close the mail with a 'save changes'. The ones that I decided
not to read (for whatever reason) I simply deleted from the ballot as
I went down the list. When I got to the bottom, I pasted the whole
thing to the yahoo mail and sent. It couldn't have been easier.

So the main thing for me (regardless of the length of voting season)
would be to have the ballots available as early as possible. I would
*like* to have them at the start of reading season, then the voting
season could be an open two weeks, (or four weeks) and it wouldn't
matter as much.

Msg# 2966

note: added to post-mortem database Posted by viv December 01, 2004 - 16:07:09 Topic ID# 2966
I added three items to the post-mortem database. We don't have to
talk about those things until we're done talking with the current
topics, but if I'd waited to add them, I would for-sure have
forgotten.

Those items were things suggested to me when I was pimping the MEFAs
on my livejournal a month or so ago, so the ideas actually originated
from several people.


viv

Msg# 2967

Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:15:04 Topic ID# 2967
I'm still quite against an overall. (I think you'll find as you get to know
me, I'm democratic sometimes but sometimes dictatorial.)

Here are some of the suggestions and my thoughts:

Overall but with more than 3 winners: This is still elitist and comes down
to a popularlity contest, as many have called it. Popular authors will get
votes. Lesser-knowns are less likely. The more categoreis there are, the
better chances for a better spread of awards.

Just a few categories, such as drabble, vignette, and poetry: I can't write
a humor story to save my life. I was surprised to find that I could write a
decent horror fic. I know I can write drama. And you can't convince me
that just because I'm a good writer in one, I'm a good writer in all of
them. And in the same way, somey way, I'm not sure I'd be a very good
Hobbit writer. I love Elves though,a nd men, well, they're human, and I've
been writing about humans (and occasionally Vulcans, Klingons, bajorans,
Founders, etc.) for a long time now. Someone may be an excellent Hobbit
writer and then find that they're not so good at writing Elves. Being good
at one does not automatically make you good at the other.

Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories I've ever read were from
Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I don't think she wrote
the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best humor. But I wouldn't want
her to miss being recognized for Numenor.

I'm presently sticking with my compromise of allowing copied comments for
authors.

Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable. Just stubborn.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2968

Re: note: added to post-mortem database Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:24:06 Topic ID# 2966
-----Original Message-----
From: viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] note: added to post-mortem database



>I added three items to the post-mortem database. We don't have to talk
about those things until we're done talking with the current topics, but if
I'd waited to add them, I would for-sure have forgotten.

I have a text file somehwere where I noted down my suggested changes. The
ones I've posted so far came from my memory. I need to find that file.

>Those items were things suggested to me when I was pimping the MEFAs on my
livejournal a month or so ago, so the ideas actually originated from several
people.

That's fine, but only members count when making these decisions. The
democratic ones anyway. ;-) Non-members have no voting rights and no say in
how we run things. That said, anyone who joins does!

Just a PS or warning, not to Viv but to everyone: One reason I'm a little
reticient about changing things from the ASC way is the fear the suggestion
of comment-based awards found when I first brought them up in the LOTR
fandom. That was in the discussions at Hennth-Annun that eventually led to
the separate group that led to the foundation of the Mithrils. That fear
led people to shoot them down before they ever got started. I will NOT
change these awards so much that the basic philosophy changes. Feedback
will ALWAYS be the prioirty, competition only secondary. Comments will
ALWAYS be the method of voting. And we will ALWAYS strive to stay away from
elitism. This isn't a popularity contest. Though, certainly, it can be
manipulated by less sincere hearts, getting feedback takes merit. So
stories win based on merit, not just being popular.

And that reminded me (because my brain is weird that way) about a comment I
wanted to put up on the Author comments thing.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2969

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:25:08 Topic ID# 2967
P.S. I had wanted to mention, but forgot, that ASC did try this overal
author thing and it was a horrid flop. It was hated, to put it bluntly. I
very much don't want to see it happen here.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:16 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments


I'm still quite against an overall. (I think you'll find as you get to know
me, I'm democratic sometimes but sometimes dictatorial.)

Here are some of the suggestions and my thoughts:

Overall but with more than 3 winners: This is still elitist and comes down
to a popularlity contest, as many have called it. Popular authors will get
votes. Lesser-knowns are less likely. The more categoreis there are, the
better chances for a better spread of awards.

Just a few categories, such as drabble, vignette, and poetry: I can't write
a humor story to save my life. I was surprised to find that I could write a
decent horror fic. I know I can write drama. And you can't convince me
that just because I'm a good writer in one, I'm a good writer in all of
them. And in the same way, somey way, I'm not sure I'd be a very good
Hobbit writer. I love Elves though,a nd men, well, they're human, and I've
been writing about humans (and occasionally Vulcans, Klingons, bajorans,
Founders, etc.) for a long time now. Someone may be an excellent Hobbit
writer and then find that they're not so good at writing Elves. Being good
at one does not automatically make you good at the other.

Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories I've ever read were from
Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I don't think she wrote
the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best humor. But I wouldn't want
her to miss being recognized for Numenor.

I'm presently sticking with my compromise of allowing copied comments for
authors.

Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable. Just stubborn.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 2970

AW: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by elanor of aquitania December 01, 2004 - 16:31:20 Topic ID# 2970
> I'm still quite against an overall.

<snip>

> Someone may be an
> excellent Hobbit
> writer and then find that they're not so good at writing
> Elves. Being good
> at one does not automatically make you good at the other.
>
> Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories I've ever
> read were from
> Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I don't
> think she wrote
> the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best humor. But I
> wouldn't want
> her to miss being recognized for Numenor.
>
> I'm presently sticking with my compromise of allowing copied
> comments for
> authors.
>
> Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable. Just stubborn.

I fully agree with Ainaechoiriel,
nobody is good in all categories,
and I had no problem to write author comments
within the various categories.
Though I had some problems to vary my words
with respect to the story vote ;-)
Yet taking the hint "vote on how the author succeeds
with respect to the allotted category" helped quite a bit.

But copied comments will definitely lighten the voter's load ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 2971

Post Mortem: Limit nominations per author Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:32:28 Topic ID# 2971
Another dictatorial decision: No.

Look at it this way, if all their stories were nominated this year, they
won't have anything to be nominated next year.

Another way to look at it: I nominted some Altariel stories. Someone else
nominated some Altariel stories. Someone else nominated some Altariel
stories. Not all multiple nominates came from the same person. If an
author nominated all her own stories, there's no guarantee they will be
read, or that they will be good enough to get votes. (They certainly may,
but it's not guaranteed. Remember, I nominated all my own stories, so don't
think I'm trying to make self-nominators feel bad. that's just realism. If
someone else nominates a story, it is more likely to get at least one
comment...by the nominator.)

Another way: Since we are based on ASC..Remember that there any story posted
during the year is automatically nominated. So if one author writes 26
drabbles (one for each ENT episode, for example), all 26 are nominated. Or
the author may choose to put them into one series and have all 26 run as one
nomination. But that is up to the author.

yet another way: One thing that really irks me about another awards program
out there is the limit of 1 story per catgory limit.

But sorry, this one is a No. There will be no limit on nominations.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2972

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by CC December 01, 2004 - 16:34:20 Topic ID# 2967
We are not suggesting an overall author thing but an
author category with sub-categories. That way we
wouldn't have an overall best author and there would
be less risk of a popularity contest.

I never participate in contests becaus emost of them
are that precisely, a popularity thing. This awards
are different so I would never suggest to turn it into
what most other awards are.

Having the authors in one category would be simpler. I
know I would not vote authors if I had to copy and
paste... I'm not even certain if I would vote authors.
It is a complicated matter for me because as many are
my friends it would be difficult to be objective. So
my suggestion, and I am aware it is your decision what
tgo do in the end, doesn't have to do with my voting
intentions for next year (smile)

CC


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> P.S. I had wanted to mention, but forgot, that ASC
> did try this overal
> author thing and it was a horrid flop. It was
> hated, to put it bluntly. I
> very much don't want to see it happen here.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
> Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that."
> --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth
> Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:16 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments
>
>
> I'm still quite against an overall. (I think you'll
> find as you get to know
> me, I'm democratic sometimes but sometimes
> dictatorial.)
>
> Here are some of the suggestions and my thoughts:
>
> Overall but with more than 3 winners: This is still
> elitist and comes down
> to a popularlity contest, as many have called it.
> Popular authors will get
> votes. Lesser-knowns are less likely. The more
> categoreis there are, the
> better chances for a better spread of awards.
>
> Just a few categories, such as drabble, vignette,
> and poetry: I can't write
> a humor story to save my life. I was surprised to
> find that I could write a
> decent horror fic. I know I can write drama. And
> you can't convince me
> that just because I'm a good writer in one, I'm a
> good writer in all of
> them. And in the same way, somey way, I'm not sure
> I'd be a very good
> Hobbit writer. I love Elves though,a nd men, well,
> they're human, and I've
> been writing about humans (and occasionally Vulcans,
> Klingons, bajorans,
> Founders, etc.) for a long time now. Someone may be
> an excellent Hobbit
> writer and then find that they're not so good at
> writing Elves. Being good
> at one does not automatically make you good at the
> other.
>
> Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories
> I've ever read were from
> Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I
> don't think she wrote
> the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best
> humor. But I wouldn't want
> her to miss being recognized for Numenor.
>
> I'm presently sticking with my compromise of
> allowing copied comments for
> authors.
>
> Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable.
> Just stubborn.
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
> Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that."
> --H.F.
>
> <http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
> Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
> http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion
> Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Msg# 2973

Post-Mortem: Vote as you go, no separate seasons Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:37:13 Topic ID# 2973
Playing dictator again: No.

Why? Because where would the cut-off be? The MEFAs already took 6 months!
Heaven forbid they go on all year long! No. And heaven forbid the poor
counters who have to count a years' worth of comments. No.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2974

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:42:43 Topic ID# 2967
-----Original Message-----
From: CC [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:34 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments


>We are not suggesting an overall author thing but an author category with
sub-categories. That way we wouldn't have an overall best author and there
would be less risk of a popularity contest.

Some were. Just reiterating my nay-saying of it. So subcategories....

Could be a simply rewording. Instead of LOTR/Author, we have Author/LOTR.
Same number of nominations.

>I never participate in contests becaus emost of them are that precisely, a
popularity thing. This awards are different so I would never suggest to turn
it into what most other awards are.

That's the way I feel, too. Thanks CC.

>Having the authors in one category would be simpler. I know I would not
vote authors if I had to copy and paste... I'm not even certain if I would
vote authors.
It is a complicated matter for me because as many are my friends it would be
difficult to be objective. So my suggestion, and I am aware it is your
decision what tgo do in the end, doesn't have to do with my voting
intentions for next year (smile)

Ah, but the trouble still remains. Am I not worthy of being considered for
a drama award for writing Immortal? But then do eschew my chance at a
Horror award with Lure of the Darkness? And next year, my drabbles and filk
will be elligible. Who limits me there?

I generally don't like limits. Limits on WIPs I understand. On their
updated status anyway, not on the number of them. By the way, I'm going to
add the WIP suggestion to the dtabase, about just posting the first few
chapters.... (I kind of like it, BTW).
--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2975

Re: Authors categorizing their own stories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:45:06 Topic ID# 2950
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 1:46 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards]Authors categorizing their own stories


>I think that's an excellent idea. I ended up asking several of the authors
I nominated which category they thought would work best.

Yeah, I don't see this one getting a lot of argument.

Though if someone has a good argument, let's hear it.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2976

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:48:48 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories



>I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

The surprise would be my fault. Or my stress-adled memory's. Anyway, that
is the way it's done at ASC, and since I borrowed so heavily from ASC, that
is the way it was done. I also prefer it that way, but that doesn't mean
I'm being dictatorial on this one. I'm still open for persuasion and it may
even go to poll.

BTW: I'm leaving work in about 10 minutes and may or may not be on again
until tomorrow.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2977

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by CC December 01, 2004 - 16:52:43 Topic ID# 2967
> Could be a simply rewording. Instead of
> LOTR/Author, we have Author/LOTR.
> Same number of nominations.
>
Yes. The only value of the suggestion would be
simplicity, but maybe it's just me who sees it that
way...

> >I never participate in contests becaus emost of
> them are that precisely, a
> popularity thing. This awards are different so I
> would never suggest to turn
> it into what most other awards are.
>
> That's the way I feel, too. Thanks CC.
>
Welcome.

> Ah, but the trouble still remains. Am I not worthy
> of being considered for
> a drama award for writing Immortal? But then do
> eschew my chance at a
> Horror award with Lure of the Darkness? And next
> year, my drabbles and filk
> will be elligible. Who limits me there?
>
You know... Maybe it's just that I don't take these
things at heart. I don't even think I'm good so
winning an award means that people liked my stories.
Only that.

> I generally don't like limits. Limits on WIPs I
> understand. On their
> updated status anyway, not on the number of them.
> By the way, I'm going to
> add the WIP suggestion to the dtabase, about just
> posting the first few
> chapters.... (I kind of like it, BTW).

Yeah, I guess some people would feel limited and we
don't want anyone to feel like that (smile).

CC

=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

Msg# 2978

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:56:50 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:36 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


>I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was categorized as
Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me
undistinguished categorization in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I
forgot to vote for a story I had printed, read, and commented on the
print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched through the
e-mails for my comment to remind Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)

Where stories are put will be up to authors in the future, I believe.
Though for the 2004's you would first have to blame the nominators, then the
staff for trying to make sure all stories were in viable categories.

>I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time and then
let the counters work for two weeks in the end _after_ the voting. In this
case quite a few voters would happily help with the counting as I did,
presumably.
During voting season I simply had not enough time to set aside for counting
as I struggled to read and to write votes.

This is more a decision for Staff next year than the post-mortem as it
doesn't really affect how the awards are run. It's more just logistics. I'm
not against it. But then I'm also somewhat obsessive/compulsive and
impatient. I'd be counting votes from day one and still worrying about the
other counters getting their totals in on time.....

>In my impression quite a few counters had a problem with the counting of
Amnesty Day votes which were not updated in the Data base.

Yes, though that comment is counter to the one above. One day, then all the
counting doen in the two weeks after. And yet we lost some of the counters
we had.

>My expanded suggestion:
Voting season of 4 weeks or more,

It's presently 6.

>have all categories open for the duration,

Still up for debate. I've posted my views on that one.

>and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks (and as long as is
needed).

No on the as long as needed. No, we need to have a promised date for the
results. If I hadn't had that this year, we might still be waiting on real
life to let up for some of the counters. Instead, we fished out their counts
to others who were available and the totals came in on time.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2979

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 17:05:21 Topic ID# 2953
Probably my last post before I run out of here.

-----Original Message-----
From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


>I was out of town for the entire Elves voting season, and (unexpectedly) on
Amnesty day. The voting schedule, which overlapped and didn't seem to be in
any particular order, was also very confusing. I had to put the chart on my
computer desktop so I'd know which categories were up for votes on a given
day!

The order was the same order as in the FAQ and everything else listing the
categories when not sorted by Yahoo or Excel. Men, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs,
Rohan, Numenor, Humor, Adventure, Drama, Romance, Horror, Mystery, The Silm,
The Hobbit, and LOTR. And I just did that from memory. I may have swapped
one or two but the pairs are the same and they were put on the calendar as
simply as I could do them in a 6 week frame. Two at a time, 10 days, each,
overlapping by 5. And I put all those in the calendar on the yahoo site so
you could see when any of the categories ran.

>I talked to several people who just got frustrated and gave up.

I'm sorry, but I have to put that on them. The information was out there. I
promoted "early voting" quite hard right from the start, and even told
everyone how they could have their e-mail program send it for them on a
specified date. I even put all the ballots in the Files section when
someone asked. So they were there from the beginning of Voting Season.

Debating whether the season will be open or run in segments is still open.
Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to all the info out there
is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there. They only had to look.
Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two people vote-by-proxy
and posted their votes for them.

>So, I'm in the the shorter-voting-time + all categories open camp.
Is there anyone else who thought having the categories run at different
times was helpful?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2980

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all Posted by elanor of aquitania December 01, 2004 - 17:32:51 Topic ID# 2953
>>In my impression quite a few counters had a problem with the
>> counting of
>> Amnesty Day votes which were not updated in the Data base.
>
> Yes, though that comment is counter to the one above. One
> day, then all the
> counting doen in the two weeks after. And yet we lost some
> of the counters
> we had.

Hmm, for me this is not counter to the counting after an open season.
I thought more along these lines: the counters counted early,
then found no more time for counting further
(there were some counters who had only a few stories counted)
or found no time on Amnesty day.

If the counting were done in one rush after the voting
I think it would be easier to guide the team
up to the target: publication date.

But this really belongs into the staff discussion
if these arguments bear no impact for the
voting season open in all categories
which I support ;-)

Best wishes from Elanor
who has to go to bed now :-)

Msg# 2981

Catagories Posted by Amy Miller December 01, 2004 - 17:44:59 Topic ID# 2952
Don't know that I really have a say in all this, since I was unable to participate in any of the reading, voting, etc. BUUUT, I would like to see a catagory added for next year.

Crossovers are included, why not AUs? Many, many, MANY wonderful AUs out there and they should be recognized.

And, since I am sticking my nose in things, shouldn't those stories published in the previous calendar year be the only ones eligible? Close of 2004 to nominating season 2005, i.e.

Also, IMHO, WIP should be in a separate catagory, regardless of topic. Only finished pieces should be included in the other awards.

I'll go back to the corner now.


RubyG



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2982

PM: Author discussion Posted by bljean@aol.com December 01, 2004 - 17:50:14 Topic ID# 2982
I know I got tongue-tied when I got to the "Author" category, in writing
comments. I found it easy to comment on a story, specifically, but Authors was too
much generalisation for me, I think.

So I'll go along with what clearer heads have to say!

Thanks!
Lin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2983

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 17:50:57 Topic ID# 2951
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:
>
> 3 topics:
> Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit their
> intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is a genuine
> interest breakup.

I agree, natural categories for races. It's the places I'm wondering about.

>
> Genres, because this is more traditional. Drama, Romance, Humor, etc.
> These are also valid. I don't read Romances for instances. Not even Elf
> romances.

Again, total agreement from me here.

>
> Time/Books, because like Trek being devided into series, this is a valid
> division in the Middle-Earth fandom. And a good fallback if you can't
> decide where else to put a story. You can almost always set one in time.

More agreement.

>
> The categories within the topics:
> Men, Elves, Hobbits, were obvious choices. Orc was a surprise but it
> actually turned out well. Why Rohan and Numenor? Because I thought there
> were enough Rohan and Numenor stories out there to make them worthwhile. I
> really had no idea Gondor would turn out like it did. So Gondor is
> definitely a cadidate for a category of its own. And there was a thought
> about a Villains category, too, so that other baddies besides Orcs could
> have their spot.

I guess my point is that if Rohan and Numenor were singled out, why not
Lothlorien? Or The Shire? Or Rivendell? Etc... If you choose one place, it
doesn't seem fair not to choose others, to at least see if they're viable
categories. (I know Romance had a Rivendell category, so that could have been
broken out into a place and other stories in the elves could have too, I'm
sure)


>
> Genres are still pretty self-explantory.
>
> As are Time/Books.
>
> But what about the number? Is it better or worse to have more or less
> categories? Ah, that is a big debate still at ASC. Some find a category
> with more than 50 stories too intimidating. While others find the explosion
> in number of categories ridiculous and wiping out all sense in having awards
> to begin with. (What is special about a Best___ Award, when there are 600
> Best ___ Awards?)


I agree too, too many categories dilutes the purpose, and in actuality, that's
what it felt like when Rohan and Numenor were accorded special categories,
though they could have easily stayed in Men. I mean, it was tough to get
Numenor viable as it was, right?

Fifty stories feels about right to me for a top limit.

>
> ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

I snipped here because those all looked logical to me...it cuts down on the
number of stories per category, without getting ridiculous.

>
> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower bound,
> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3 authors
> for authors.

Now that we have a better idea of the spread we might get, maybe we should
raise that to 7x2 stories and (left at) 3 for authors.

>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder



=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 2984

Re: Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 17:54:28 Topic ID# 2952
--- sulriel <Sulriel@htcomp.net> wrote:

>
> it looks like some great ideas and discussion going on. I'll try to
> throw out my 2 cents in a coherent manner.
>
> cutoff dates:
> I'm not concerned about how old a story is. I see something of a
> problem in the fandom, in that it seems like (for the most part) only
> the newer stories get much attention. I like the way the archives
> tend to have the newest on top, but many times, once you're off the
> front page, your readership drops dramatically. I love see those old
> forgotten favorites get another chance in the light.

That's a good point. I guess I was a little concerned with some older stories
whose authors (I'd heard) had left the fandom and were pursuing other
interests. Didn't seem quite right to give them too much of my time and
attention, but that's just me maybe...


>
> instead of a 'completed by' cutoff date, I'd rather leave that open
> and instead say that a story can only be nominated one time ever.

That seems reasonable to me.

>
> in regards to WIPs. ...I used to read some, I don't (much) any more
> for a couple of reasons. Mainly the aggravation of waiting on
> updates, and especially those that you realize, over a long period,
> are likely not to be finished. I'm ducking because my own 'longfic'
> took me about 18 months to write and I'm **extremely** grateful for
> the readers who encouraged me along the way. But I think, especially
> for a contest, if it's worth reading, it's worth reading all of it.
> I'd prefer not to allow WIPs at all. Once they're finished, they'll
> be eligible in their regular category.
>
>
> (added)===> another thought here, in order to encourage authors who
> haven't finished their work ... what about submitting only the
> prologue and first chapter, or two chapters of a WIP, (regardless of
> how much of it is written only that much would be voted on). ...
> that would allow feedback on the characterization and setting up the
> plot, etc, without bogging down the readers in 100k words of an
> unfinished story.author votes:

That's a good idea. I like it.


> Sulriel

Msg# 2985

PM Categorisation Posted by bljean@aol.com December 01, 2004 - 17:56:23 Topic ID# 2985
I found this too. I had stories I'd commented on, or thought I'd commented
on, but they weren't in the category where I wrote most (or all?) my comments,
and so when I came around to Amnesty Day I don't know if I actually transmitted
all my comments.

Though there was one phantom story that wasn't even in the competition! (And
I wrote comments on it, LOL)

Lin


In a message dated 12/1/2004 2:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on
one of my favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim
because it was categorized as Drama and for my mind it belonged
to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me undistinguished categorization
in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I forgot to vote for a
story I had printed, read, and commented on the print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched
through the e-mails for my comment to remind
Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2986

PM: I don't know what you'd call the topic Posted by bljean@aol.com December 01, 2004 - 18:03:30 Topic ID# 2986
Does this (what I quoted below) imply limiting the number of entries by an
author somehow? I know I felt chagrined to have so many entries, when I looked
at the lists later--this was because most of them I submitted myself. I was
going thru a bad patch, and looking for feedback at the time, and so submitted a
bunch of my own stuff since I figured nobody else would.

Insecurity raises its head... (dh read one of my stories aloud to the kiddos
last night, and what I had thought so charming on paper or monitor sounded,
read aloud, boring and impossibly dull. And so I look at my positive comments
once more and bless those who took the time to read and leave encouraging words,
while again resisting the compulsion to chuck the writing in the dustbin)

Aargh. Sorry.
Lin

In a message dated 12/1/2004 2:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine
or twelve people walk away with all the goodies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 2987

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 18:06:44 Topic ID# 2953
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
> categories
>
>
>
> >I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
> I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
> voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
> assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.
>
> This one is up for debate, too, I think. I, personally, wouldn't want to
> have to vote on them all at once. Having them run in different periods
> actually helped me. I didn't use Reading Season well.

I tried to use reading season, and I did for a lot of the categories.


>
> And yes, there is the bit about faciliatating counting, and yes, you are
> right that some did disappear and we had to scramble to count at the end. I
> think I ended up counting 16 categories. (Thank you everyone who picked up
> the slack! We still had our required 3 different counters per comment!) I
> personally liked having 5 days off here and there. I think we could
> definitely combine author & story for the same counter though. (I just
> finalized that one.) That might keep them around. And if we keep the
> catgories running at different times, we could spell it out what time period
> the counters are counting for.

My only comment on that then, if you're going to specify counting periods, then
you do not offer an Amnesty Day. For one thing, that drags out the counting so
that the original counter feels obligated to stay and count it, or it makes it
difficult for someone new to step in and collect the ballots and count them.
Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified, we still had
a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.

I was thinking a 2 week voting season would keep the counters interested for
the whole thing, plus give a little time if RL issues cropped up.

Either way, I think the suggestion about having the ballots ready to go or made
available to fill out ahead was a good one too.


>
> >The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
> suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking that
> if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave all the
> categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize the time the
> counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need for an amnesty day.
>
>
> There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all catgories at the same time
> and 2) shorten Voting Season.
>
> I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2. I don't think so. I
> would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted on. And there was a
> poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was too long, too, short, or
> just right. The vote was "just right".

Yes, I voted for six weeks when I was under the impression that we could vote
for any category at all during that time. Having staggered them I'd say 6 weeks
was too long.


>
> I could have used more time! But was glad for a deadline because, hey, I do
> have a life. ;-)

Ditto. But concentrating it all into 2 weeks seems like it would take less
time, not more. And maybe this way, you don't have to scramble for more
counters at the last minute, if they know up front that their time is limited
to these two weeks, and we won't lose people who just...don't show up.

>
> Discuss on this one (change the subject line accordingly) and it will go to
> poll soon.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

>
>
>

Msg# 2988

Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categorization problems Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 18:11:10 Topic ID# 2988
Hi again,

<snip>
> >I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
> favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was
categorized as
> Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR.

I think Jodancingtree had a hard time finding where her story "The
Queen's Orc" was placed as well. And I think Lindelea was unsure
whether Thundera's "The Ring Goes South" (or something like that).
This might have a simple solution. We have on the website a listing of
nominations by category. Would it be feasible to have a table of
nominations sorted by title, that also listed the category (and
subcategory where applicable)? That way, if someone is unsure if a
story has been nominated or where it is nominated, they could take a
quick look at the table.

<snip>
> >I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time
and then
> let the counters work for two weeks in the end _after_ the voting.

<further snippage>
> This is more a decision for Staff next year than the post-mortem as
it
> doesn't really affect how the awards are run. It's more just
logistics. I'm
> not against it. But then I'm also somewhat obsessive/compulsive and
> impatient. I'd be counting votes from day one and still worrying
about the
> other counters getting their totals in on time.....
>

Another thing to consider: some people (like me) work well with
deadlines. I know a lot of people said they didn't use reading season
well. If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
*more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much close
at once.

<snip>
> >and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks (and as
long as is
> needed).
>
> No on the as long as needed.

Just to weigh in - I agree with Ainae here. See my above comment about
deadlines - this applies to the staff as well. I'm sure there are some
people counting votes who work better knowing they have a deadline.

One further comment - there's been a lot of talk about categorization.
I know the categories make sense, and I don't want to have just one
class (Races, Source Material, or Genre). But I think most stories can
be categorized as one race *and* one source *and* one genre. We might
need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
each in the three divisions I mentioned above.

To give an example: Thundera's "A Fool's Hope". (This is just the
first story that jumps to mind.) This is a scene between two elves, so
it could fit there. It is a drama piece, so it could go there as well.
And it is clearly LotR, where it was categorized. So it would be
eligible in each of these three categories.

With this year's awards, I saw some what I consider artificial
differences in the categories. For example, there was Romance, but
there was also Silmarillion/Romance and (I think?) Elves/Romance.
There was Silmarillion, but then also (I think?) Elves/Silmarillion.
So the Silmarillion winners do not necessarily represent the best
Silmarillion-centric stories nominated - they did not compete with
stories in Elves/Silmarillion.

If we had multiple categories it would also decrease the pressure to
make categories viable. Say a story is nominated in Drama/Incomplete,
Hobbit/Incomplete, and Men/Incomplete. Drama/Incomplete and Men/
Incomplete are viable, but Hobbit/Incomplete is not. But you would not
have to find a new home for all the stories in Hobbit/Incomplete -
just let them run in the other categories they are in.

I recognize there are some logistical questions to consider, and it
probably needs more discussion on my part. But I wanted to know your
general feeling. Would you be willing to consider this? I think it
would help a lot, but it's a pretty considerable change.

Marta

Msg# 2989

Re: Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 18:16:28 Topic ID# 2952
Back for a bit before I head off to choir....

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:54 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible
stories



--- sulriel <Sulriel@htcomp.net> wrote:

>That's a good point. I guess I was a little concerned with some older
stories whose authors (I'd heard) had left the fandom and were pursuing
other interests. Didn't seem quite right to give them too much of my time
and attention, but that's just me maybe...

Oh, I still love getting comments about my Angel/Buffy stories. Only two
and only written a few years ago.



> instead of a 'completed by' cutoff date, I'd rather leave that open
> and instead say that a story can only be nominated one time ever.

That seems reasonable to me.

That already is the case, except for WIPs, which may run once as incomplete
and once as complete.

>
> (added)===> another thought here, in order to encourage authors who
> haven't finished their work ... what about submitting only the
> prologue and first chapter, or two chapters of a WIP, (regardless of
> how much of it is written only that much would be voted on). ...
> that would allow feedback on the characterization and setting up the
> plot, etc, without bogging down the readers in 100k words of an
> unfinished story.author votes:

>That's a good idea. I like it.


So do I, but I thought of a snag....We don't post stories. We just nominate
them. They are housed elsewhere.

So, is it plausible to just say somewhere: "You only need to read the first
chapter of any WIP to vote on it"

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2990

Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categorization problems Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 18:32:55 Topic ID# 2988
Still have a few minutes

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:10 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems



Hi again,

<snip>
> >I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
> favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was
categorized as
> Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR.

>I think Jodancingtree had a hard time finding where her story "The Queen's
Orc" was placed as well. And I think Lindelea was unsure whether Thundera's
"The Ring Goes South" (or something like that).
This might have a simple solution. We have on the website a listing of
nominations by category. Would it be feasible to have a table of nominations
sorted by title, that also listed the category (and subcategory where
applicable)? That way, if someone is unsure if a story has been nominated or
where it is nominated, they could take a quick look at the table.

Since authors will (most likely) categorize their own stuff, it won't be a
problem for authos, but it is possible that I could do that.

>Another thing to consider: some people (like me) work well with
deadlines. I know a lot of people said they didn't use reading season
well. If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
*more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much close
at once.

That's where I am. Voting Season and the following counting of votes
actually sucked up more of my life than any other part of these Awards. And
without some very serious juggling, I would have had overdrafts. I really,
really put things on hold for this. I'm happy to do it, but I don't want to
make it any harder on myself. I wouldn't go to bed without counting all the
Elves votes for the night.

>> No on the as long as needed.

>Just to weigh in - I agree with Ainae here. See my above comment about
deadlines - this applies to the staff as well. I'm sure there are some
people counting votes who work better knowing they have a deadline.

That one won't change.

>One further comment - there's been a lot of talk about categorization.
I know the categories make sense, and I don't want to have just one
class (Races, Source Material, or Genre). But I think most stories can
be categorized as one race *and* one source *and* one genre. We might
need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
each in the three divisions I mentioned above.

Yes, they can often fit in two or three categories. But no, they will not
run in more than one. The author (most likely--still haven't seen anyone
against that one) will decide which one category they want their story in.
It just wouldn't be anywhere near fair for the same story to win three
categories, and it would make it just as hard to comment on that story three
times as it is to comment on an author three times.

>To give an example: Thundera's "A Fool's Hope". (This is just the
first story that jumps to mind.) This is a scene between two elves, so
it could fit there. It is a drama piece, so it could go there as well.
And it is clearly LotR, where it was categorized. So it would be
eligible in each of these three categories.

Elligible for, yes, but finally landing in three, no.

>With this year's awards, I saw some what I consider artificial
differences in the categories. For example, there was Romance, but
there was also Silmarillion/Romance and (I think?) Elves/Romance.
There was Silmarillion, but then also (I think?) Elves/Silmarillion.
So the Silmarillion winners do not necessarily represent the best
Silmarillion-centric stories nominated - they did not compete with
stories in Elves/Silmarillion.

That would all be fixed by authors choosing their categories. Subcategories
were just considered by grouping like stories togther within the main
categories. Where we could find them. They are not even listed in the FAQ.
Even if authors choose their category, they will likely have to suggest a
subcategory or two, or the staff will still end up putting them in
subcategories, especially if we go with the 50 stories per category rule
from ASC.

>If we had multiple categories it would also decrease the pressure to
make categories viable. Say a story is nominated in Drama/Incomplete,
Hobbit/Incomplete, and Men/Incomplete. Drama/Incomplete and Men/
Incomplete are viable, but Hobbit/Incomplete is not. But you would not
have to find a new home for all the stories in Hobbit/Incomplete -
just let them run in the other categories they are in.

They could simply be in the other category they are elligible for. But
those doing the categorizing this year may not have read the story. They
wouldn't know if that Hobbit/Incomplete was dramatic or humorous. If
authors categorize their own stuff, that point is moot.

>I recognize there are some logistical questions to consider, and it
probably needs more discussion on my part. But I wanted to know your
general feeling. Would you be willing to consider this? I think it
would help a lot, but it's a pretty considerable change.

Thanks for the suggestion but no. No one complete story will ever win more
than one award. If any one complete story is in more than one category,
that can't be guaranteed. Having authors categorize will take much of the
problem out of this one.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2991

Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categorization problems Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 19:07:36 Topic ID# 2988
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> Still have a few minutes
>

I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>

<snip>
> Would it be feasible to have a table of nominations
> sorted by title, that also listed the category (and subcategory
where
> applicable)?

<snip>
> Since authors will (most likely) categorize their own stuff, it
won't be a
> problem for authos, but it is possible that I could do that.
>

This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
available in the files section during reading season.

<snip>
> If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
> specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
> *more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much
close
> at once.
>
> That's where I am.

Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading season
up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
announce the results.

>Voting Season and the following counting of votes
> actually sucked up more of my life than any other part of these
Awards.

Ainae, I know I've said it before, but thank you. Thank you, all the
vote coutners, categorizers, and everyone else. But especially thanks
to Ainae. I was a Mithrils judge and I know how much time that took.
So I do have *some* idea of how tough it was for you - and I know you
did much more than I did as a judge. So hear, hear! for Ainae & Co.

<snip>
> We might
> need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
> each in the three divisions I mentioned above.
>
> Yes, they can often fit in two or three categories. But no, they
will not
> run in more than one. The author (most likely--still haven't seen
anyone
> against that one) will decide which one category they want their
story in.


Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of my
suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for veto
by you.

One suggestion - if the authors are choosing the categories, could we
have them choose the subcategories as well? I think this year there
were some stories that would fit a certain subcategory but the
categorizers just didn't know it. I think if we had some predefined
subcategories and asked the authors to note if they wanted their story
to run in a subcategory, it would make things a lot more consisten.

> It just wouldn't be anywhere near fair for the same story to win
three
> categories, and it would make it just as hard to comment on that
story three
> times as it is to comment on an author three times.
>

Both of these are part of the logistical issues I had thought of, but
that I didn't want to write out if you weren't interested in the idea.
I think the multiple cateogires idea could work, but after seeing your
reply, I don't think it's necessary. You've answered all the issues I
had.

Marta

Msg# 2992

PM - fanart Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 19:14:43 Topic ID# 2992
I know there were some comments earlier (before this PM) about the
banners. I think a lot of people not involved in the awards do not
know what "The Lothlorien Award" means - "Elves - First Prize" makes a
lot more sense.

So maybe the banners could say "Elves - First Place" instead of "The
Lothlorien Award"? The entries for first place should still be
Lothlorien themeed and people could even describe the award they won
as "the Lothlorien Award" if they liked. But the banner space should
be dedicated to the phrase that people will most easily recognize, I
think.

Marta

Msg# 2993

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 19:14:50 Topic ID# 2993
> Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
> Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here for a
> while...
>
> CC
>
> Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to provide
> them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead Week" for our
> Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening of the week. And I
> onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to one of my cats becoming
> overly aggressive toward another of them.
>
> Thanks, if you would, Larian.


Just me doing this pretty fast, but it should be pretty accurate.

Adventure - 23
Crossover - oops, didn't count these
Drama - 107
Elves - 63
Hobbits - 55
Horror - 10
Humor - 31
LOTR - 60
Men - 57
Mystery - 10
Numenor - 7
Orcs - 10
Rohan - 12
Romance - 61
Silm - 36
TheHobbit - 7
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder



=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 2994

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 19:31:04 Topic ID# 2967
My issue with author comments stemmed from the fact that it was rather
confusing, until I saw some other author votes. We're just not used to voting
for authors separate from the stories, I think. We might have to do a bit of
education, but it was easy once I got the hang of it. (Though I still didn't
write many)

It probably doesn't make much difference if we keep the authors with each main
category, or make one main author category with humor/drama/poetry/etc
sub-categories. But really, (and I can't remember who mentioned this before) I
agree that it takes the same tools to write humor as it does to write drama,
when you get down to basics. Maybe a case could be made for splitting out
poetry or drabbles, but it might be less confusing for the voters if the
authors had their own category. If it's less confusing, more might vote.

I would agree though, that there shouldn't be an 'overall' author award.


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 2995

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Viv December 01, 2004 - 19:52:16 Topic ID# 2953
I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to sound overly critical.
I've been a huge cheerleader for these awards and
think very highly of them. Maybe I can get my foot out
of my mouth if I yank on it hard enough. ;)

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Debating whether the season will be open or run in
> segments is still open.
> Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to
> all the info out there
> is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there.
> They only had to look.
> Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two
> people vote-by-proxy
> and posted their votes for them.


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

Msg# 2996

Re: PM - fanart Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 21:40:51 Topic ID# 2992
No. It's still the Lothlorien Award. Viv did a big, big job adding a bar
under each banner telling what category and what place it was. And
subcategory! So not only will a The Lothlorien Award banner mean
Elves--First Place, but Elves--Drabble--First Place, or whatever. Thanks,
Viv!

How we can do that in the future? Either we need another volunteer with the
know-how or we need the winners to add that. Hmm...but I liked that the bar
was uniform even though I don't want the banners to be.

I'm not sure what to do there. It would be asking a lot for artists to make
seventeen of each banner. Especially when we don't know the subcategories
until after Nomination Season is over.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:14 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM - fanart



I know there were some comments earlier (before this PM) about the banners.
I think a lot of people not involved in the awards do not know what "The
Lothlorien Award" means - "Elves - First Prize" makes a lot more sense.

So maybe the banners could say "Elves - First Place" instead of "The
Lothlorien Award"? The entries for first place should still be Lothlorien
themeed and people could even describe the award they won as "the Lothlorien
Award" if they liked. But the banner space should be dedicated to the phrase
that people will most easily recognize, I think.

Marta





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 2997

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 21:42:55 Topic ID# 2993
Crossovers had 8.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:15 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Re: Stories per Main Category




> Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
> Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here
> for a while...
>
> CC
>
> Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to
> provide them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead
> Week" for our Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening
> of the week. And I onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to
> one of my cats becoming overly aggressive toward another of them.
>
> Thanks, if you would, Larian.


Just me doing this pretty fast, but it should be pretty accurate.

Adventure - 23
Crossover - oops, didn't count these
Drama - 107
Elves - 63
Hobbits - 55
Horror - 10
Humor - 31
LOTR - 60
Men - 57
Mystery - 10
Numenor - 7
Orcs - 10
Rohan - 12
Romance - 61
Silm - 36
TheHobbit - 7
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder



=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
archive@ofelvesandmen.com


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 2998

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by zafiro\_v December 01, 2004 - 21:46:31 Topic ID# 2993
Thank you for the info. Was there a minimn number of stories per
category? When did you decide it was a good idea to split
categories? If we had a rule about that it would need less
discussion...

CC

Msg# 2999

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 21:49:22 Topic ID# 2967
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:31 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments


>My issue with author comments stemmed from the fact that it was rather
confusing, until I saw some other author votes. We're just not used to
voting for authors separate from the stories, I think. We might have to do
a bit of education, but it was easy once I got the hang of it. (Though I
still didn't write many)

I've done it for years with ASC, and it was still hard for me. Of course, I
also have the hindrance of occassional aphasia now.

>It probably doesn't make much difference if we keep the authors with each
main category, or make one main author category with humor/drama/poetry/etc
sub-categories. But really, (and I can't remember who mentioned this
before) I agree that it takes the same tools to write humor as it does to
write drama, when you get down to basics.

I couldn't disagree more! I've written dramatic stories for over a decade.
I have necer written a humorous story and am afraid to try. Not everyone
who writes historical fiction can write science fiction. A person who
writes a romance novel cannot necessarily write mainstream drama. It's
absolutely not the same. Some really great humor writers can only write
really crappy dramatic stories.

> Maybe a case could be made for splitting out poetry or drabbles, but it
might be less confusing for the voters if the authors had their own
category. If it's less confusing, more might vote.

I still don't see how Author/LOTR and LOTR/Author are any different.
Besides, this conflicts with another suggested change that no one has
nay-sayed yet: the low bound. 50 stories per category (as ASC has it).
There were more than 50 author nominations.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com




=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
archive@ofelvesandmen.com


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3000

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer distribution. Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 21:51:49 Topic ID# 2951
-----Original Message-----
From: sulriel [mailto:Sulriel@htcomp.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:34 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.




>(trying to be succinct) I agree with the below. to start with some basics
and expand once the numbers reach a max, keeping the smaller ones above a
minimum. I understand and agree (to a point) with the thought that two many
categories can diminish the award, but this is also supposed to be fun, and
it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine or twelve people walk away with all
the goodies.

Agreed, but we had way more than 12 winners as it was, didn't we? But this
compromise has worked for ASC. I havent' seen this particular debate there
for a year or so.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3001

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 21:56:54 Topic ID# 2993
From what I remember, I wasn't in on the categorizing at the beginning, but I
know that each category and sub-category needed to have 5 stories by at least 2
different authors. Once the nominations closed, the nominations staff grouped
them into logical subcategories, sometimes they had to move stories that could
fit into two categories into a different place so we'd have more viable
categories.

So yes, there was a minimum number of stories.


--- zafiro_v <zafiro_v@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Thank you for the info. Was there a minimn number of stories per
> category? When did you decide it was a good idea to split
> categories? If we had a rule about that it would need less
> discussion...
>
> CC
>
>
>
>
>
>

Msg# 3002

Re: PM - fanart Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 21:59:51 Topic ID# 2992
> No. It's still the Lothlorien Award. Viv did a big, big job adding
a bar
> under each banner telling what category and what place it was. And
> subcategory! So not only will a The Lothlorien Award banner mean
> Elves--First Place, but Elves--Drabble--First Place, or whatever.
Thanks,
> Viv!

Thanks, Viv, from me, too. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I was suggesting
this for *next* year. (I'll try to be clearer in the future, but all
my suggestions are for next year, not this year.)

> How we can do that in the future? Either we need another volunteer
with the
> know-how or we need the winners to add that. Hmm...but I liked that
the bar
> was uniform even though I don't want the banners to be.
>

Well, I'm sufficiently reluctant not to volunteer a year in advance. ;
-) Beside,s, I don't know how to do it (though I suppose I could
learn.

Having "Elves - First Place" would be a good failsafe (IMO) in case we
didn't have someone to add the bar. Also, it would make less work for
Viv or whomever - s/he would not have to add any bars to the main
category banners, only the subcategory ones.

Marta

Msg# 3003

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by CC December 01, 2004 - 22:00:36 Topic ID# 2993
I see... makes sense...

CC


--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> From what I remember, I wasn't in on the
> categorizing at the beginning, but I
> know that each category and sub-category needed to
> have 5 stories by at least 2
> different authors. Once the nominations closed, the
> nominations staff grouped
> them into logical subcategories, sometimes they had
> to move stories that could
> fit into two categories into a different place so
> we'd have more viable
> categories.
>
> So yes, there was a minimum number of stories.
>


=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Msg# 3004

Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 22:22:29 Topic ID# 2940
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:51 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise



<snip>
>Would anyone be interested in me posting a few author comments from
>the ASC Awards to see how they were done successfully
for so
> many years?
>

>That would be good.

I'm not sure Trekiverse has comments archived, but I have, of course, kept
mine. Let me find a few:

From Valerie, 2001 ASC Awards:

I've read everything Gabrielle writes (even if she thinks mine are too
grim) and enjoy her style very much. As one who writes and rewrites until
you get it right, I am amazed that she doesn't. She writes grim stuff, but
always has that touch of hope there to balance it. Not all of us do that,
but she is excellent at balancing the good with the bad without having to
have a cheeze "happy" ending.

From Seema (can't remember which year):

It was good to see Gabrielle back this year. No one writes
Julian the way she does. Good luck with finishing "Faith."

From RabbbleRouser 2001:

Lawson is a very strong writer in terms of her narrative gift and
the pacing, description, style, and characterizations are all nicely in
place in her stories; as is a solid plot with an interesting sci-fi based
mystery at its center in "Faith: Forgiveness." Her Bashir is very
interesting.

This is one of my favorites. Meghan missed the deadline, so this vote did
not count, but she sent it to me, and I treasure it. Would have been for
the 2003 Awards:

Gabrielle is one fo those authors that you wonder why they aren't writing
professionally (maybe cause you write too much!). Her stories are so
complex and developed that you forget you're not reading a best selling
author (maybe that's redundant). The characters are true to life and
although she may disagree, her description is so compelling. Sometimes,
after reading one of her stories, I remember a scene that was so vivid that
I don't know if I read it or saw it on television. Her stories grab you
from the first sentence and don't let go until after you've finished. Some
like Oswiecim don't let go at all. Gabrielle is a truely talented writer
and I look forward to more from her.

(See why I treasure it? And Oswiecim was the Best DS9 General Story winner
for 1998!)

>Ainae, correct me if I'm wrong, but ASC is divided into ENT/TOS/TNG/
DS9/VOY, right? And not subdivided along multiple ways (like we have:
source material, race, genre)? You've spent more time in the Trek fandom
than I have, but it was my impression that most people tend to write within
one show. So I imagine the overlap between characters isn't quite as great.

They are first broken into the series. ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and MIS
(Mis being Miscellaneous, which includes cobined series and crossovers and
original crews). From there, the series are broken down. I won Best DS9
Story in 1996. That just meant it was not a subcategory. Someone else won
Best DS9 Romance, and that might even break down into pairings or "Featuring
Sisko". In 1998 and 2000 I won Best DS9 General Story and Best MIS
Combined. DS9 General meaning no subcategory though they did exist and MIS
Combined being a mix of two series, in that case TNG and DS9. So yes, they
have subcategories.

>That doesn't fix our problem, but it is something to consider.

Info and answers above for consideration. :-)

>Fair enough. I write multiple genres and races and everything, but I think
I write it in basically the same way, the story just molds my basic
technique into one way or a not. So I could easily review all my stories
(Drama, Action, and Romance, Men and Hobbits) stories together. But that's
me. I can see how ot might create problems for other authors.

Good for you! I only recently took the leap in trying to write a drabble
and shocked myself to find out that I could write a filk parody! I had no
idea I could do either of those and I don't think I write them in the same
way at all. I write DS9 differently than I do LOTR. Ask Julian Bashir.
He's probably jealous of Legolas. I've not put Legolas in Auschwitz.
Yet.... ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3005

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by Marta December 01, 2004 - 22:23:12 Topic ID# 2993
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@y...>
wrote:
> From what I remember, I wasn't in on the categorizing at the
beginning, but I
> know that each category and sub-category needed to have 5 stories by
at least 2
> different authors.

Just to verify (as I was in on categorizing at the beginning),
Larian's right. From the FAQ:

IV. Categorization
B. Any suggested category must have at least 5 stories (or poems) by
at least 2 authors to be a viable category
.....1. Author categories must have at least 3 authors to be viable.

(http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/Awards%20FAQ.html)

Marta

Msg# 3006

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer distribution. Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 22:31:55 Topic ID# 2951
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.


> I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
> on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
> got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor
> category?)

>Heya, this fan of Gondorians supports this question ;-) Why not a Gondorian
category if there is a Rohirrim one?

As I said before, we had no idea there would be 27 Gondor stories (and
that's just in Men!) I thought there would be more Rohan and Numenor
stories. As for Elves, I just didn't think there would be enough say,
Mirkwood or Rivendell stories to make a category. In hindsight...


>I understood, Ainaechoiriel wanted as many awards as possible, other wise I
would not understand poetry, drabbles, WIP, Rohan, Drama etc.

>Thus I support a category Gondor.

>Drama or Horror, on the other hand, are for me misleading categories.

Why? There are Drama movies and horror movies. Friday the 13th would not be
in the same category as The Pianist.

>I missed one of my favourite Men-LoTR stories because it was in the
category Drama, and in Horror I read more Silmarillion stories than Horror
stories.

Again, having the authors pick their category will make this easier. Then
an author can decide if their scary Silm story should be in Horror or The
Silm.

>Thus I support a categorization along the main races and make under
categories for Gondor, Rohan, Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.

I doubt there would be enough out there for a Moriquendi category. As for
Sindar and Noldor, possible, but they get mixed together an awful lot.

>I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a under category for Men,
Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line more along Second age, Early
Third Age, Pre-War-of-the-Ring, War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.

Again, I do think it's good and makes sense to have the Time/Books
categories there for their own sakes and also as backups. Some stories are
easy to categorize. Others are not. So putting it in Silm because it's set
in the Second Age might be a good thing. As it was, there were some Second
Age subcategories and such other there when we could find a group of five or
more to fit them.

>Thus we would have for example
"Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
"Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
If the subcategories have not enough stories they would be subsumed into one
category higher.
I'm all for only delinneating main categories and having suggestions for
subcategories. Because we won't know what we have until all the
Nominations are in.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3007

Re: Post Mortem topic - length of voting season, / ballot availabil Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 22:40:41 Topic ID# 2965
-----Original Message-----
From: sulriel [mailto:Sulriel@htcomp.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - length of voting season, /
ballot availability


>So the main thing for me (regardless of the length of voting season) would
be to have the ballots available as early as possible. I would
*like* to have them at the start of reading season, then the voting season
could be an open two weeks, (or four weeks) and it wouldn't matter as much.

That wouldn't be a problem. In fact, anyone could have had a ballot before
Reading Season: Just save the last check ballot! There were few errors by
then and probably just typos. The corrected check ballots were changed into
ballots only by changing the header and footer.

Putting ballots up after the last Check Ballot is no problem at all.

Anyone opposed?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3008

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 22:44:59 Topic ID# 2967
-----Original Message-----
From: CC [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments



> Ah, but the trouble still remains. Am I not worthy of being
> considered for a drama award for writing Immortal? But then do eschew
> my chance at a Horror award with Lure of the Darkness? And next year,
> my drabbles and filk will be elligible. Who limits me there?
>
>You know... Maybe it's just that I don't take these things at heart. I
don't even think I'm good so winning an award means that people liked my
stories.
Only that.

Some people do, some people don't. That's one reason I like this type of
awards. There is competition for those who want it, but it's secondary to
something everyone wants: feedback.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3009

Re: Catagories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 22:56:49 Topic ID# 2952
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Miller [mailto:amy_j12000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:44 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagories


>Don't know that I really have a say in all this, since I was unable to
participate in any of the reading, voting, etc. BUUUT, I would like to see a
catagory added for next year.

If you're a member you have a say. If you're new as of after Voting Season,
though, you may not have much to go on. You still have a say in any changes
we suggest.

>Crossovers are included, why not AUs? Many, many, MANY wonderful AUs out
there and they should be recognized.

We had quite a few AU's recognized, I think, just not a main category. Are
you suggesting it? Well, put it in the database. It's certainly worth
consideration.

>And, since I am sticking my nose in things, shouldn't those stories
published in the previous calendar year be the only ones eligible? Close of
2004 to nominating season 2005, i.e.

No, it's not feasible because of the hugeness of the fandom. We can maybe
see on ff.net when a story was posted, but not on all sites. An old story
could easily be reposted elsewhere and look "new". And besides, there might
be a gazillion wonderful stories written before we started the MEFAs. And a
trillion that were but we just didn't find 'em. At ASC, maybe a few hundred
stories get posted in a year. Here, thousands! Tens of thousands!

>Also, IMHO, WIP should be in a separate catagory, regardless of topic. Only
finished pieces should be included in the other awards.

I'd put that one to a poll, perhaps, but I think it's the same as for
completed stories. A drama is not a humor piece is not a horror story, etc.

>I'll go back to the corner now.

No reason to hide. Stick around.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3010

Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 23:09:17 Topic ID# 2951
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing



--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:
>
> 3 topics:
> Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit
> their intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is
> a genuine interest breakup.

>I agree, natural categories for races. It's the places I'm wondering about.

See below.

>I guess my point is that if Rohan and Numenor were singled out, why not
Lothlorien? Or The Shire? Or Rivendell? Etc... If you choose one place, it
doesn't seem fair not to choose others, to at least see if they're viable
categories. (I know Romance had a Rivendell category, so that could have
been broken out into a place and other stories in the elves could have too,
I'm
sure)

It wasn't about fair or unfair. It was more of a guess at what was out
during a brainstorming session over IM with Shadow975. Why her? She was
there and she agreed to help.

BTW: If you want to catch me on IM, I'm Ainaechoiriel. Just be sure to
identify yourself right away. I get a little spooked by IMs from strangers.
In fact, the first thing I usually say to strangers who IM me is: Identify
yourself. So just IM me and say "Hi, I'm so and so from the MEFAs" and I
won't be spooked.


>I agree too, too many categories dilutes the purpose, and in actuality,
that's what it felt like when Rohan and Numenor were accorded special
categories, though they could have easily stayed in Men. I mean, it was
tough to get Numenor viable as it was, right?

See above, just a arbitrary brainstorm of what might be out there. Mystery
and Orcs were added by an as yet not codified process before Nomination
Season began. No new categoreis were added once Nomination Season began. I
think that is a good rule to keep. Once Nomination Season starts, main
categories are set.

But we should probably come up with a precedure for adding or changing
categories.

>Fifty stories feels about right to me for a top limit.

It works at ASC. Any other comments on the limit of 50?

>
>I snipped here because those all looked logical to me...it cuts down on the
number of stories per category, without getting ridiculous.

That's why it seems to have kept the peace at ASC.

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower
> bound, though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at
> least 3 authors for authors.

>Now that we have a better idea of the spread we might get, maybe we should
raise that to 7x2 stories and (left at) 3 for authors.

Put that up as a new topic and let's see if there are other suggestions or
comments on that number. I'm okay with 7. Or 8. I'm, believe it or not,
rather indecisive. ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3011

Re: PM: I don't know what you'd call the topic Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 23:12:33 Topic ID# 2986
I'm not sure if you're against limits on entries by an author or for them.
But either way, there won't be any.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: bljean@aol.com [mailto:bljean@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:03 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: I don't know what you'd call the topic


Does this (what I quoted below) imply limiting the number of entries by an
author somehow? I know I felt chagrined to have so many entries, when I
looked at the lists later--this was because most of them I submitted myself.
I was going thru a bad patch, and looking for feedback at the time, and so
submitted a bunch of my own stuff since I figured nobody else would.

Insecurity raises its head... (dh read one of my stories aloud to the kiddos
last night, and what I had thought so charming on paper or monitor sounded,
read aloud, boring and impossibly dull. And so I look at my positive
comments once more and bless those who took the time to read and leave
encouraging words, while again resisting the compulsion to chuck the writing
in the dustbin)

Aargh. Sorry.
Lin

In a message dated 12/1/2004 2:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine or
twelve people walk away with all the goodies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3012

OT: Just in case you thought church was boring.... Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 23:38:28 Topic ID# 2988
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems


>I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>

Rehearsals are fun. When the chicken was supposed to crow, we had an
explosion. When we needed and explosions, we had a chicken. And the Roman
soldiers were wearing Poodle skirts. Yes, Poodle skirts.

Sigh, but only on the first day. There were other silly things the next
day. Tomorrow is a dress rehearsal and the last day for silliness.

>This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
available in the files section during reading season.

These aren't really FAQ things. So you guys may have to remind me when the
time comes. Relying on my memory is not a wise thing.

>Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading season
up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
announce the results.

Does any other Awards program out there do this? Do the Oscars, Emmies, or
Grammies? No, I don't think so.

>Ainae, I know I've said it before, but thank you. Thank you, all the
vote coutners, categorizers, and everyone else. But especially thanks
to Ainae. I was a Mithrils judge and I know how much time that took.
So I do have *some* idea of how tough it was for you - and I know you
did much more than I did as a judge. So hear, hear! for Ainae & Co.

Thanks. I actually would appreciate delegating some more this next year.
Six months is what this took. I'm supposed to be a writer, too....


>Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of my
suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for veto
by you.

So does anyone object to having authors categorize? I haven't seen any. Do
we call this one final or do we give it more time?

>One suggestion - if the authors are choosing the categories, could we
have them choose the subcategories as well? I think this year there
were some stories that would fit a certain subcategory but the
categorizers just didn't know it. I think if we had some predefined
subcategories and asked the authors to note if they wanted their story
to run in a subcategory, it would make things a lot more consisten.

I'm thinking it will work like this:

When asking for permission, we give the author a mulitple chose of all the
categories. They suggest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. They give a few
suggestions for subcategories. Because yes, they do know their stories
best.

>Both of these are part of the logistical issues I had thought of, but
that I didn't want to write out if you weren't interested in the idea.
I think the multiple cateogires idea could work, but after seeing your
reply, I don't think it's necessary. You've answered all the issues I
had.

Great. I'm thinking eventually we will have an Awards committee rather than
just myself that helps run the post-mortem and such. It may not be this
next year, but maybe the next after that. We just have to be sure that we
know what the MEFAs are and what needs to always remain.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3013

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 23:39:08 Topic ID# 2953
Don't be so hard on yourself! At least your word order makes sense. (Mine
doesn't always!) :-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to sound overly critical.
I've been a huge cheerleader for these awards and think very highly of them.
Maybe I can get my foot out of my mouth if I yank on it hard enough. ;)

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Debating whether the season will be open or run in segments is still
> open.
> Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to all the info out
> there is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there.
> They only had to look.
> Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two people
> vote-by-proxy and posted their votes for them.


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3014

Re: Stories per Main Category Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 23:44:27 Topic ID# 2993
Yes, it's in the FAQ. The present limit is 5 stories by 2 authors for
viability. For Authors, it was 3 authors. To subcategorize, we just tried
to group them based on what we knew (mainly through subcategory suggestions,
pairings, etc.). Again the 5x2 rule existed. There needed to be five poems
by at least 2 authors to make a Poetry subcategory.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: zafiro_v [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:45 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Stories per Main Category



Thank you for the info. Was there a minimn number of stories per category?
When did you decide it was a good idea to split categories? If we had a rule
about that it would need less discussion...

CC









Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3015

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 0:27:19 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:07 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


>My only comment on that then, if you're going to specify counting periods,
then you do not offer an Amnesty Day. For one thing, that drags out the
counting so that the original counter feels obligated to stay and count it,
or it makes it difficult for someone new to step in and collect the ballots
and count them.
Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified, we still
had a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.

Yes we did. Amnesty Day was actually a selfish wish that a lot of other
people decided was a good idea. There doesn't have to be one next year.
I'm not going to say I wish I didn't have one this year though. I'm glad I
did. But next year, I hope I don't need it. I'd like to use Reading Season
better and make Voting Season easier on myself.

>I was thinking a 2 week voting season would keep the counters interested
for the whole thing, plus give a little time if RL issues cropped up.

I don't know if it would make it easier or not to keep the counters around.
I don't think it would give any time for RL issues to come up. Let's get
some suggestions (2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 3 weeks) and we'll put them in
a poll.

>--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3016

PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Marta December 02, 2004 - 0:28:58 Topic ID# 3016
The categories and awards for 2004 were:

Adventure (Black Gate / Pelennor / Helm's Deep)
Crossover (PotC / Hidalgo / Indiana Jones)
Drama (Turin / Frodo Baggins / Nimrodel & Amroth)
Elves (Lothlorien / Imladris / Grey Havens)
Hobbits (Mayor of Hobbiton / Master of Buckland / Thain of Great
Smials)
Horror (Morgoth Bauglir / Eye of Sauron / Witch-King of Angmar)
Humor (Tom Bombadil / Bilbo Baggins / Barliman Butterbur)
Lord of the Rings (FotR / TTT / RotK)
Men(Faithful / Kings / Stewards)
Mystery (Cuivienen / Pukelmen / Barrow-Wight)
Numenor (Elros / Tar-Palantir / Tar-Miriel)
Orcs (Barad-dur / Minas Morgul / Orthanc)
Rohan (Theoden / Eomer / Eowyn)
Romance (Luthien and Beren / Tuor and Idril / Aragorn and Arwen)
The Hobbit (Shire / Mirkwood / Lonely Mountain)
The Silmarillion (Ainulindale / Valaquenta / Akallabeth)

I think these are good, but I can see room for tweaking. These are my
suggestions for next year, and they are quite possibly the result of a
finals-addled brain. Feel free to reject or offer your own
suggestions.

* Drama - There are too few pictures of Turin and Nimrodel & Amroth. I
would suggest we choose different titles, but I don't have very good
suggestions. Thinking practically, it might help to choose three LotR
characters with a fair amount of drama in their story. Eowyn and
Denethor jump to mind. Oh, please, let me make Denethor banners...

* Elves - Thinking practically, again, we might want to rethink the
Grey Havens. Why not make the third prize award Mirkwood (I have a
suggestion for The Hobbit to avoid that title there, but I'll go into
that in a minute). I suggest this because there are many illustrations
of Mirkwood from the books and I'm sure in fanart, where as I don't
think as many for The Grey Havens.

* Hobbits - The order of the awards always seemed odd to me. Perhaps
I'm the only one bothered by this kind of thing... but the Thain is
the oldest and most prestigious office ("But in that war the North
Kingdom ended; and then the Hobbits took the land for their own, and
they chose from their own chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the
king that was gone.", Prologue). The Master is also an important
position: "the authority of the Master of the Hall (as the head of the
Brandybuck family was called) was still acknowledged by the farmers
between Stock and Rushey. ", "A Conspiracy Unmasked". And the
mayoralty is of course an office, but a rather unimportant one: "As
mayor almost his only duty was to preside at banquets, given on the
Shire-holidays, which occurred at frequent intervals.", "Prologue". In
light of this, I suggest Thain=first, Master=second, and Mayor=third.
(Sorry for the ramble!)

* Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed under Men as
subcategories. The awards could then be Numenor, Gondor, and Rohan
(or, if you prefer the main Ring War powers, perhaps Gondor, Rohan,
and Harad? Think of the potential for great desert banners!)

* Mystery - I want the Entwives! This is one of the greatest mysteries
in all Tolkien (IMHO), and thanks to the movies we have lots of
pictures of Ents that could be used. I leave it up to you which place
to put it in, but I think this would be a great award. (Added: I
requested Pukel-men below for Drabbles. Maybe substitute Entwives for
that one here?)

Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest changing the name
to somehow include all pieces about forces of evil, not just orcs. I
know Werecat has a great piece on Tevildo, a servant of Morgoth, that
I wanted to nominate but which did not seem appropriate for this
category. Also, I am proposing a new category below that I would like
Orthanc for. Can we use Moria here instead?

* Romance - For practical reasons (because there's so little art out
there to work with) you might want to consider changing Luthien and
Beren, and Tuor and Idril. Maybe the three major canonical romances in
LotR? (Aragorn and Arwen, Faramir and Eowyn, Sam and Rosie)

* The Hobbit - if you go with my suggestion to use Mirkwood for Elves,
you could change this Mirkwood Award to The Misty Mountains Award or
The Laketown Award.

Now, for my additions. (I know, I know... almost done here.) I would
like to request three additions to the genres:

1. Poetry
* First: "The Road Goes Ever On" Award
* Second: The "Where Now the Rider" Award
* Third: "Eärendil was a Mariner" Award
(The three poems I most associate with hobbits, men, and elves; these
are completely negotiable)

2. Drabbles
* First: The Hobbits Award
* Second: The Dwarves Award
* Third: The Pukel-men Award
(Get it? They're short...)

3. Nonfiction
* First: The Rivendell Award
* Second: The Minas Tirith Award
* Third: The Orthanc Award
(major centres of scholarship at end of TA)

And that's it. Sorry this was so long.

Marta

Msg# 3017

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Marta December 02, 2004 - 0:42:39 Topic ID# 2953
> Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified,
we still
> had a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.
>
> Yes we did. Amnesty Day was actually a selfish wish that a lot of
other
> people decided was a good idea. There doesn't have to be one next
year.
> I'm not going to say I wish I didn't have one this year though. I'm
glad I
> did. But next year, I hope I don't need it. I'd like to use
Reading Season
> better and make Voting Season easier on myself.
>

For what it's worth, I really appreciated amnesty day, and I know some
other people did, too. Of course I did not have to count the votes,
but I think if voting stays by category, keeping amnesty day is a very
good idea.

Is there any other way we can make amnesty day counting smoother,
short of removing the day entirely? I don't know what the problems
were behind the scenes, so I can't even begin to speculate.

Marta

Msg# 3018

Re: OT: Just in case you thought church was boring.... Posted by Marta December 02, 2004 - 0:59:32 Topic ID# 2988
>
> >I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
> Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
> have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>
>
> Rehearsals are fun. When the chicken was supposed to crow, we had
an
> explosion. When we needed and explosions, we had a chicken. And the
Roman
> soldiers were wearing Poodle skirts. Yes, Poodle skirts.
>

Pshaw, that's nothing. At last year's dress rehearsal we had four
sheep (one of those in power ranger costume), three wise men, two
shepherds, and a spaceman and a cowboy who were supposed to be
shepherds (and were by opening night. But there costumes were being
mended, and since everyone else were in costume, they insisted on
wearing their costumes - from Halloween).

> >This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
> available in the files section during reading season.
>
> These aren't really FAQ things. So you guys may have to remind me
when the
> time comes. Relying on my memory is not a wise thing.
>

Not that mine's any better, but I'll try to remember to remind you.

> >Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading
season
> up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks
or
> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
> announce the results.
>
> Does any other Awards program out there do this? Do the Oscars,
Emmies, or
> Grammies? No, I don't think so.
>

It was only a suggestion. I was just trying to think of ways to help
people make better use of reading day. But it's probably not
necessary.

<snip>
> >Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
> satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of
my
> suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for
veto
> by you.
>
> So does anyone object to having authors categorize? I haven't seen
any. Do
> we call this one final or do we give it more time?
>

I say give it a little time. 48 hours, maybe? I remember back before
nomination season, there was some issue or other that people didn't
think we gave enough discussion time, for people on the other side of
the world who were asleep while we Americans were doing all the
discussing.

<snip>
> When asking for permission, we give the author a mulitple chose of
all the
> categories. They suggest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. They give a few
> suggestions for subcategories. Because yes, they do know their
stories
> best.
>

Yes. But I think we need a list of suggested subcategories as well.

Btw, while I'm thinking about it - can we add "novel" to the required
subcategories (just like poetry and drabble were in their own
subcategory)? I was thinking about this the other day, and longer
works (say, over 40,000 words) really shouldn't compete with shorter
ones. They have more time to draw a readership and there's more to
comment on.

<snip>
> I'm thinking eventually we will have an Awards committee rather than
> just myself that helps run the post-mortem and such. It may not be
this
> next year, but maybe the next after that.

That's probably a good idea. Give you some backup and some people to
hash out ideas with.

Not that I'm volunteering, of course. ;-)

Marta

Msg# 3019

An offer from my husband Posted by angelabrooks@yahoo.com December 02, 2004 - 1:39:11 Topic ID# 3019
I was talking with my husband Anthony about these awards, and
specifically the vote counting process. He has designed websites
before and enjoys doing it as a hobby. Last year he created a website
for online registration to a conference held by a nonprofit
organization I volunteer for, which was a big sucess. We both agreed
that a website designed specifically for voting would save huge
amounts of work and hassle when it came to counting votes.

Our idea, which is just preliminary based on a little bit of
discussion, and could be tweaked however necessary, would be a website
where voters would go, enter their votes on a form, and the website
would perform the necessary calculations of characters without spaces.

If desired, the site could automatically post to the group once each
day all the votes cast that day. Or all votes could be posted to a
database on the site. It would also be possible to allow nominators
to nominate directly on the site. Lots of different things would be
possible, and Anthony would want to have extensive discussion with
Ainae and the rest of the group to make sure it was just the way we
wanted it.

Anthony is willing to do the work involved. I know Ainae has server
space, so hopefully she would be able to host it.

The major benefit I see to this is cutting down the workload for Ainae
and all the staff. It would be a fair bit of work building it, but
once finished it would automatically take care of most of the tasks
that took so much time and effort this year. I know as one of the
counters, that pretty much all the errors came from human mistakes
such as typing a vote score onto the wrong line in a spreadsheet, or
making an error in transferring a total from spreadsheet to database.
We are already relying on a computer tally of the votes (throught the
Word character counting function), this would just eliminate all the
middle steps where the errors creep in. And if any questions arose
about the accuracy of the counts, we could always go in and hand count
as a backup.

So, Ainae, if you are interested in pursuing this idea as a
possibility, let me know, and I can have Anthony sub to the list and
talk to you directly about what he can and can't do.

Elana

Msg# 3020

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Naresha December 02, 2004 - 5:36:05 Topic ID# 2953
--- Larian <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------

> I was under the mistaken impression that voting
> would open on day 1 of the voting season, and
> all the categories could be voted on
> throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read
> during voting season.

Same here. In the end I couldn't vote because I
wasn't sure what would be when and my RL schedule
is so variable that I knew that everything would
just get too messy if I tried to do it all - even
with the amnesty day.

I know that if I knew I had a set period of
however long, then I could probably sort out
things I wanted to read and review a lot better.

Naresha.

=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3021

Re: Post-Mortem: Author Comments Posted by CC December 02, 2004 - 6:59:37 Topic ID# 2967
> >You know... Maybe it's just that I don't take these
> things at heart. I
> don't even think I'm good so winning an award means
> that people liked my
> stories.
> Only that.
>
> Some people do, some people don't. That's one
> reason I like this type of
> awards. There is competition for those who want it,
> but it's secondary to
> something everyone wants: feedback.
>
That's right, and for those to like competition there
are enough awards so their chances of getting one
increases. I still think too many categories is no
real competition, and quite complicated to vote but
that's my opinion.

CC

=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Msg# 3022

Re: PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 10:59:29 Topic ID# 3016
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 12:28 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories

>I think these are good, but I can see room for tweaking. These are my
suggestions for next year, and they are quite possibly the result of a
finals-addled brain. Feel free to reject or offer your own suggestions.

I had at least one of my own. Maybe more.

>* Drama - There are too few pictures of Turin and Nimrodel & Amroth. I
would suggest we choose different titles, but I don't have very good
suggestions. Thinking practically, it might help to choose three LotR
characters with a fair amount of drama in their story. Eowyn and Denethor
jump to mind. Oh, please, let me make Denethor banners...

We already have an Eowyn (thus far). I've been thinking Faramir is quite an
angsty guy. However, and I think this is worth nothing, most of the banners
that won, WEREN'T screen captured. So does it really matter that there
aren't pictures?

>* Elves - Thinking practically, again, we might want to rethink the Grey
Havens. Why not make the third prize award Mirkwood (I have a suggestion for
The Hobbit to avoid that title there, but I'll go into that in a minute). I
suggest this because there are many illustrations of Mirkwood from the books
and I'm sure in fanart, where as I don't think as many for The Grey Havens.

The problem with pictures from books is copyright. I've stated on the site
that the MEFAs aren't responsible for getting permission. The artist making
the banner is. If anyone comes to me saying they have a problem with a
banner because of copyright material, I'm going to send them back to whoever
made the banner. Screencaps, then, are not such a problem. But like I
said, most of the banners that won weren't screen captured. Anyway, there
were a lot of screen caps for the Gray Havens and none of Mirkwood. Just
thrown out there for info purposes.

And the problem with Mirkwood besides is that we had very few submissions
for it.

>* Hobbits - The order of the awards always seemed odd to me. Perhaps I'm
the only one bothered by this kind of thing... but the Thain is the oldest
and most prestigious office ("But in that war the North Kingdom ended; and
then the Hobbits took the land for their own, and they chose from their own
chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the king that was gone.", Prologue).
The Master is also an important
position: "the authority of the Master of the Hall (as the head of the
Brandybuck family was called) was still acknowledged by the farmers between
Stock and Rushey. ", "A Conspiracy Unmasked". And the mayoralty is of course
an office, but a rather unimportant one: "As mayor almost his only duty was
to preside at banquets, given on the Shire-holidays, which occurred at
frequent intervals.", "Prologue". In light of this, I suggest Thain=first,
Master=second, and Mayor=third.
(Sorry for the ramble!)

The order wasn't anything particular. And I doubt most non-Hobbit fans
remember this much about the history. The first place award was Frodo at
first "The Ring-Bearer". Because he is the most prominent of the four
Hobbits in the Fellowship. Merry was next as Master... Because he and Pip
were the other two that had titles, and he was the next oldest. Pip was the
youngest so he came third. The first was later changed to Sam, who did have
a title: Mayor, but also because Frodo was used elsewhere.

>* Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed under Men as subcategories.
The awards could then be Numenor, Gondor, and Rohan (or, if you prefer the
main Ring War powers, perhaps Gondor, Rohan, and Harad? Think of the
potential for great desert banners!)

Subcategories don't get their own banners.

* Mystery - I want the Entwives! This is one of the greatest mysteries in
all Tolkien (IMHO), and thanks to the movies we have lots of pictures of
Ents that could be used. I leave it up to you which place to put it in, but
I think this would be a great award. (Added: I requested Pukel-men below for
Drabbles. Maybe substitute Entwives for that one here?)

Ooh, I want the Dead Marshes!

>Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest changing the name to
somehow include all pieces about forces of evil, not just orcs. I know
Werecat has a great piece on Tevildo, a servant of Morgoth, that I wanted to
nominate but which did not seem appropriate for this category. Also, I am
proposing a new category below that I would like Orthanc for. Can we use
Moria here instead?

No, I think we're going to go with Villians. That was a suggested change
that just hasn't been brought up Post-Mortem yet. Villains broadens that
out to include all baddies.

>* Romance - For practical reasons (because there's so little art out there
to work with) you might want to consider changing Luthien and Beren, and
Tuor and Idril. Maybe the three major canonical romances in LotR? (Aragorn
and Arwen, Faramir and Eowyn, Sam and Rosie)

Actually, I had picked the three main Elf-Man unions. And the artwork
warning goes out here, too. (Why? Just because it needs to be said
multiple times to avoid lawsuits and such). For screen-cappers those would
be great. We can get pics of them. But that's just for screen-cappers.
But remember we want to not have duplication so using Sam and Rosie here
would mean we shouldn't use him for Hobbits, likewise Faramir and Eowyn for
Drama or Rohan.

>* The Hobbit - if you go with my suggestion to use Mirkwood for Elves, you
could change this Mirkwood Award to The Misty Mountains Award or The
Laketown Award.

Why did I choose Mirkwood and not the Misty Mountains or Laketown even when
Mirkwood is hard to get submissions for? Because I'm a die-hard Legolas
fan! And there's no Legolas Award. There's no Thranduil Award (he's his
daddy, after all). Nothing. Sigh. I just had to have something to represent
my guy in some small way.

Can we find a place for a Legolas Thranduilion Award somewhere?

>Now, for my additions. (I know, I know... almost done here.) I would like
to request three additions to the genres:

>1. Poetry
* First: "The Road Goes Ever On" Award
* Second: The "Where Now the Rider" Award
* Third: "Eärendil was a Mariner" Award (The three poems I most
associate with hobbits, men, and elves; these are completely negotiable)

I'd put that one to a vote. It sounds good, but is it workable. Just might
be.

>2. Drabbles
* First: The Hobbits Award
* Second: The Dwarves Award
* Third: The Pukel-men Award
(Get it? They're short...)

I don't know about pulling the Drabbles out as their own category. They're
so short anyway. Vote on that one, too?

>3. Nonfiction
* First: The Rivendell Award
* Second: The Minas Tirith Award
* Third: The Orthanc Award
(major centres of scholarship at end of TA)

The only problem is that I don't think it would be viable. Especially if we
raise the limit from 5 to 7 or 8.

>And that's it. Sorry this was so long.

No problem. Do remember to separate these out and put them in the database.
I WILL get confused if having to rely on my memory and my humungous inbox.

We WILL have some category and award titles polls out eventually. But I
want to wait on those until we sort out some more stuff, like how many
stories makes a category viable, etc.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3023

Re: An offer from my husband Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 11:07:46 Topic ID# 3019
How loud should I shout it? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just a) didn't have the know-how, and b) don't have any money to pay
someone who does. Didn't want to ask and burden anyone, but if anyone
offers......I'd love it!

And yes, I have space to host it. (Though today that computer is being
obstinately offline, so banners are not available--as they are the only
thing presently hosted there exclusively. Didn't know it was offline 'til I
got to work, so can't fix it 'til I get home.

I'd have one concern: fraud. Does Anhtony know how we can better guarantee
that people aren't stacking the vote? There have been a lot of very smart
web developers at ASC working on making their awards secure when voting
online. It *could* be an issue.

Oh, and one other thing, which ASC does and we would want: votes done online
would also be forwarded onto the list. Is that workable?

Would Anthony like to join our group here? Find me on IM? Or join the Staff
group?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 1:39 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] An offer from my husband



I was talking with my husband Anthony about these awards, and specifically
the vote counting process. He has designed websites before and enjoys doing
it as a hobby. Last year he created a website for online registration to a
conference held by a nonprofit organization I volunteer for, which was a big
sucess. We both agreed that a website designed specifically for voting
would save huge amounts of work and hassle when it came to counting votes.

Our idea, which is just preliminary based on a little bit of discussion, and
could be tweaked however necessary, would be a website where voters would
go, enter their votes on a form, and the website would perform the necessary
calculations of characters without spaces.

If desired, the site could automatically post to the group once each day all
the votes cast that day. Or all votes could be posted to a database on the
site. It would also be possible to allow nominators to nominate directly on
the site. Lots of different things would be possible, and Anthony would
want to have extensive discussion with Ainae and the rest of the group to
make sure it was just the way we wanted it.

Anthony is willing to do the work involved. I know Ainae has server space,
so hopefully she would be able to host it.

The major benefit I see to this is cutting down the workload for Ainae and
all the staff. It would be a fair bit of work building it, but once
finished it would automatically take care of most of the tasks that took so
much time and effort this year. I know as one of the counters, that pretty
much all the errors came from human mistakes such as typing a vote score
onto the wrong line in a spreadsheet, or making an error in transferring a
total from spreadsheet to database.
We are already relying on a computer tally of the votes (throught the Word
character counting function), this would just eliminate all the middle
steps where the errors creep in. And if any questions arose about the
accuracy of the counts, we could always go in and hand count as a backup.

So, Ainae, if you are interested in pursuing this idea as a possibility, let
me know, and I can have Anthony sub to the list and talk to you directly
about what he can and can't do.

Elana





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3024

New poll for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 02, 2004 - 11:14:56 Topic ID# 3
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

PM Suggestion: Do not allow WIPs that
have not been updated in longer than
one year.

o Disallow them
o Allow them


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1530386

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Msg# 3025

New poll for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 02, 2004 - 11:21:27 Topic ID# 3
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

PM Suggestion: Voting Season should be
a) broken up so that categories run in
separate periods with deadlines or b)
should be one open block for all
categories.

o a) catgories in periods
o b) all categories in one block


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1530405

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Msg# 3026

Re: New poll for MEFAwards Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 11:22:49 Topic ID# 3
As of today, we have 175 members. I don't want to see these polls decided
but just 10-15 people. I know every group has lurkers. I lurk on some
myself. But let's do one thing this year's elections (US) did right: get
out the vote!

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:14 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] New poll for MEFAwards




Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the MEFAwards group:

PM Suggestion: Do not allow WIPs that
have not been updated in longer than
one year.

o Disallow them
o Allow them


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1530386

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!












Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3027

Re: Catagories Posted by Dawn Martinez-Byrne December 02, 2004 - 15:05:13 Topic ID# 2952
>And, since I am sticking my nose in things, shouldn't those stories
published in the previous calendar year be the only ones eligible? Close of
2004 to nominating season 2005, i.e.

No, it's not feasible because of the hugeness of the fandom. We can maybe
see on ff.net when a story was posted, but not on all sites. An old story
could easily be reposted elsewhere and look "new". And besides, there might
be a gazillion wonderful stories written before we started the MEFAs. And a
trillion that were but we just didn't find 'em. At ASC, maybe a few hundred
stories get posted in a year. Here, thousands! Tens of thousands!

This is a tricky one, because while some sites have dates, others don't.
And a story may have been first at ff, buried for a couple of years, then
moved to OSA--where a new publication date is assigned.

I personally like limiting it to the last year, eliminating all those that
were nominated last year(minus the WIP). But it is tough to check.

khazar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3028

Re: PM: I don't know what you'd call the topic Posted by Dawn Martinez-Byrne December 02, 2004 - 15:09:30 Topic ID# 2986
Part of the original post seems to have vanished, but it looks like someone is worried about a
handful of people reaping the wins. Am I correct?

This is an unfortunately common complaint. The more prolific writers are often singled out,
because their output makes the chances of success better. And there are also a handful of
writers whose work is so clearly superior that to "handicap" them by limiting wins seems unfair.
But there is also a legit argument that seeing the same people win several categories makes the
whole thing look somewhat biased.

I haven't yet found a good solution to this--and I'd love to hear some.

khazar
I'm not sure if you're against limits on entries by an author or for them.
But either way, there won't be any.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3029

Re: PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 02, 2004 - 16:00:29 Topic ID# 3016
>* Hobbits - The order of the awards always seemed odd to me. Perhaps I'm
the only one bothered by this kind of thing...

I too was confused at the order here. I am a hobbit person, and to me the order of the awards was illogical. To my mind it should be 1st - Thain, 2nd - Master, and 3rd - Mayor.

Marigold

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

Msg# 3030

Re: Catagories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 16:20:23 Topic ID# 2952
-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn Martinez-Byrne [mailto:dlmbyrne@gte.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 3:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Catagories


>This is a tricky one, because while some sites have dates, others don't.
And a story may have been first at ff, buried for a couple of years, then
moved to OSA--where a new publication date is assigned.

Exactly. There's no way to police the published dates unless we do open
ourselves up as an archive. Personally, I've already got enough on my
plate, and not money to pay someone to do this.

>I personally like limiting it to the last year, eliminating all those that
were nominated last year(minus the WIP). But it is tough to check.

The first isn't feasible but the second has been the case since the
beginning. In fact, I'm working on our 2004 Nominations database. I'm
trying to get the WIPs out right now. Then all that will be left is title
and author. That's where we can see what was previously nominated and is
not elligible again. I'm going to put the WIPs in a new database. They are
elligible only once more...when they are finished.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3031

Re: PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Marta December 02, 2004 - 18:41:32 Topic ID# 3016
Hi Ainae,

<snip>
>> * Drama - There are too few pictures of Turin and Nimrodel &
Amroth. I
>> would suggest we choose different titles, but I don't have very
good
>> suggestions. Thinking practically, it might help to choose three
LotR
>> characters with a fair amount of drama in their story. Eowyn and
Denethor
>>jump to mind. Oh, please, let me make Denethor banners...

> We already have an Eowyn (thus far).

Right, but under the current scheme she's a Rohan award. I'm
suggesting making Rohan a subcategory of Men, so there would be no
need for an Eowyn Award. If we go with my suggestion for Romance, then
she's used there (unless you'd be willing to allow both a
Faramir&Eowyn Award, and an Eowyn Award? The titles aren't identical,
which I think would be the main source of confusion).

> I've been thinking Faramir is quite an
> angsty guy.

He is also out if we use Faramir&Eowyn for Romance/Second. Other
possibilities that spring to mind are Theoden, Boromir, and Gollum
(all of which strike me as pretty dramatic characters). Of course, if
we keep Rohan separately Theoden's out. I'm open to suggestions.

> However, and I think this is worth nothing, most of the banners
> that won, WEREN'T screen captured. So does it really matter that
there
> aren't pictures?

I tried to go look at the banners ... is this true of the categories
where it was possible to use screencaps as well?

I don't know how much it matters. I am not a huge fan of the Silm, and
I don't want to knock it, but personally I would identify more with
characters whose stories I was more familiar with.

>> * Elves
<snip>
> The problem with pictures from books is copyright.

Good point; I hadn't thought of that.

<snip>
>> Hobbits
<snip>
>> In light of this, I suggest Thain=first,
>> Master=second, and Mayor=third.

> The order wasn't anything particular. And I doubt most non-Hobbit
fans
> remember this much about the history.

Hey, I'm not a huge hobbit fan. I write mostly Men. ;-) But I am
pedantic and enjoy researching the halflings.

You may be right. But given it's the hobbit authors who will most
likely be entering this category, and the hobbit readers who will be
seeing the banners, shouldn't their opinion be important in this
category?

> The first place award was Frodo at
> first "The Ring-Bearer". Because he is the most prominent of the
four
> Hobbits in the Fellowship. Merry was next as Master... Because he
and Pip
> were the other two that had titles, and he was the next oldest. Pip
was the
> youngest so he came third. The first was later changed to Sam, who
did have
> a title: Mayor, but also because Frodo was used elsewhere.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with your reasoning for
why they were in that order this year. But if nothing was meant by the
order could we redo it for next year? I don't think the titles are
necessarily tied to Sam, Merry, and Pippin, though many of the banners
did feature them.

>> * Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed under Men as
>> subcategories.
>> The awards could then be Numenor, Gondor, and Rohan

<snip>
> Subcategories don't get their own banners.

Right. I'm not suggesting that they do here. Sorry if I'm not being
clear.

As it stands right now most of the races have their own category -
Elves, Hobbits, Orcs (or Villains). But Men are split among three
categories: Men, Numenor, Rohan. I suggest making Numenor and Rohan
subcategories under Men, just like Gondor was for this year. Then the
awards for *all* of men could be The Numenor Award = first, The Gondor
Award = second, The Rohan Award = third.

> * Mystery - I want the Entwives! This is one of the greatest
mysteries in
> all Tolkien (IMHO), and thanks to the movies we have lots of
pictures of
> Ents that could be used.

<snip>
> Ooh, I want the Dead Marshes!

Ooh, that would be good, too. You know, there's nothing to say we
can't have *both* Entwives and Dead Marshes... *g* Personally I'm most
in favor of Entwives - Dead Marshes - Barrow-wights, but I'd also
accept Cuivienen instead of Barrow-wights (see my aforementioned Third
Age bias over Silm... I'm not saying Ring War is best, just that
that's where my thinking lies.)

> Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest changing the name
to
> somehow include all pieces about forces of evil, not just orcs.

<snip>
> No, I think we're going to go with Villians.

Sorry, I'm not clear what you're disagreeing with. I agree with the
name Villains. Or were you disagreeing with my suggestion of Moria
over Orthanc?

>> * Romance
<snip>
>>Maybe the three major canonical romances in LotR? (Aragorn
>>and Arwen, Faramir and Eowyn, Sam and Rosie)

> Actually, I had picked the three main Elf-Man unions.

Which makes sense in its own way. I'm just suggesting that the pairs
I've suggested might be more familiar to more people. I know about
Beren and Luthien (though I don't have as strong of a connection to
them as I do to F/E, A/A, and S/R). Tuor and Idril I had heard of but
really barely knew who they were.

<snip>
> For screen-cappers those would
> be great. We can get pics of them. But that's just for screen-
cappers.

True. But I'd guess there's at least as much fanart out there of
Faramir and Eowyn as of Tuor and Idril, or even Beren and Luthien (of
course people would still have to get permission, or create their own)
.

> But remember we want to not have duplication so using Sam and Rosie
here
> would mean we shouldn't use him for Hobbits,

Right. As it is right now, we aren't. We're using Mayor of Hobbiton -
which could include pictures of Sam, but also of Frodo or Will
Whitfoot (I think there's some fanart of him?), or just of Hobbiton in
general.

> likewise Faramir and Eowyn for
> Drama or Rohan.

Agreed. I've made alternate suggestions above.

>> The Hobbit
<snip>
> Why did I choose Mirkwood and not the Misty Mountains or Laketown
even when
> Mirkwood is hard to get submissions for? Because I'm a die-hard
Legolas
> fan! And there's no Legolas award. There's no Thranduil Award
(he's his
> daddy, after all). Nothing.

I *do* understand. (Notice my shameless begging for a Denethor award
above...) But I think people will associate Legolas with Mirkwood more
under Elves than under TH. Legolas never appears (by name) in TH.

> Can we find a place for a Legolas Thranduilion Award somewhere?

I was actually going to suggest that we consider having a movieverse
award. Movieverse stories would not be *restricted* to this category,
but there are some fabulous stories that make good use of the changes
in the movies, or explain some troubling parts of the movies, or just
make good use of movie imagery. If you're interested in this, I
suggest the three following awards:

1. The Legolas Award
2. The Haldir Award
3. The Figwit Award

>> Now, for my additions.
<snip>
>> 1. Poetry

> I'd put that one to a vote. It sounds good, but is it workable.
Just might
> be.

I think it would be. There's a lot of poetry about, and I think it
takes a very specific skill to write a poem; they should be allowed to
compete together as a genre.

>> 2. Drabbles

> I don't know about pulling the Drabbles out as their own category.
They're
> so short anyway. Vote on that one, too?

As a drabble writer, it takes a *very* unique skill to write a
drabble. We've discussed how different a skill is required to write,
say, humour and drama. Well, for me, there's an even bigger difference
in how I write my drabbles and longer pieces, from how I write humour
and drama (or any other two genres that are closer to the same length)
. There are lots of them out there, and they generated a lot of
comments this time around. I would really like to see them compete
against each other instead of being so spread out.

>> 3. Nonfiction

> The only problem is that I don't think it would be viable.
Especially if we
> raise the limit from 5 to 7 or 8.

You leave it to me to find these research articles. One of my greatest
joys is finding a new Tolkien article (I *told* you I'm a research
article). I can think of eight articles that I would have nominated,
without even thinking for very long. But because this is the Middle-
earth Fan*FICTION* Awards I assumed that nonfiction was ineligible.

>> And that's it. Sorry this was so long.

> No problem. Do remember to separate these out and put them in the
database.

I understand. I'll break this up, but probably tomorrow.

Marta

Msg# 3032

Re: PM - fanart Posted by erin\_hobbit\_ofbt December 02, 2004 - 21:57:27 Topic ID# 2992
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
>
> > How we can do that in the future? Either we need another
volunteer with the know-how or we need the winners to add that.
Hmm...but I liked that the bar was uniform even though I don't want
the banners to be.
> >



Greetings all ~

Please pardon me sticking my nose in out of lurkage, but I thunk a
wee thought. As someone who occasionally tinkers in image graphics
on her handy, dandy Paint Shop Pro, I wondered ... When accepting
next year's banner contestant entries, could it be specified somehow
that each banner should have a blank bar left at the bottom? Then
when winners are selected and banners need to be tailored for
specific awards, the artists themselves could add the wording.
Organizers could even specify what font would be used, picking a
common font type that most image-manip programs would have.

Or perhaps just have each entrant include the aforesaid blank strip
at the bottom, and 'hire' someone to go through, afterwards, and put
on the appropriate label for each award. Or 'hire' a couple
someones ...

*scratches head* Dang, that sounds like work, no matter how I twist
it. Anywho, I mainly wondered if requesting entrants to make their
banner entries with a blank place for the lettering might at least
cut down on a little of the work ...

Think I'll slink away now, in hopes someone else can pluck something
of use from my mumbling! :-D
Cheers ~

Erin

Msg# 3033

Re: PM - fanart Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 22:43:12 Topic ID# 2992
Good idea. Now if I could just figure out why my other computer (the one
that is my web server) won't get on the network anymore.....

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: erin_hobbit_ofbt [mailto:tgatwater@gbis.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: PM - fanart



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
>
> > How we can do that in the future? Either we need another
volunteer with the know-how or we need the winners to add that.
Hmm...but I liked that the bar was uniform even though I don't want the
banners to be.
> >



Greetings all ~

Please pardon me sticking my nose in out of lurkage, but I thunk a
wee thought. As someone who occasionally tinkers in image graphics
on her handy, dandy Paint Shop Pro, I wondered ... When accepting
next year's banner contestant entries, could it be specified somehow
that each banner should have a blank bar left at the bottom? Then
when winners are selected and banners need to be tailored for
specific awards, the artists themselves could add the wording.
Organizers could even specify what font would be used, picking a
common font type that most image-manip programs would have.

Or perhaps just have each entrant include the aforesaid blank strip
at the bottom, and 'hire' someone to go through, afterwards, and put
on the appropriate label for each award. Or 'hire' a couple
someones ...

*scratches head* Dang, that sounds like work, no matter how I twist
it. Anywho, I mainly wondered if requesting entrants to make their
banner entries with a blank place for the lettering might at least
cut down on a little of the work ...

Think I'll slink away now, in hopes someone else can pluck something
of use from my mumbling! :-D
Cheers ~

Erin









Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3034

Re: PM - fanart Posted by erin\_hobbit\_ofbt December 02, 2004 - 22:54:24 Topic ID# 2992
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> Good idea. Now if I could just figure out why my other computer
(the one that is my web server) won't get on the network anymore.....
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder



Does that have something to do with why I can't get the banners page
to come up?
http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html
"Cannot find server - The page cannot be displayed"

I know you are incredibly busy and have about a thousand other things
tugging at you - and that's just in regards to the MEFAs! But I
wondered if I missed the banners being moved or some other notice.
Please forgive me being a pain ... You have done SO much incredible
work on this whole awards, and I can truthfully say the success of it
did wonders towards making me feel good about fandom contests
again! :-)

*slinks back into lurkage*

~ Erin

Msg# 3035

OT: Ainaechoiriel's weird computer tip of the day... Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 23:24:29 Topic ID# 3035
Never throw out a network card.

The network card that is presently in DS9 (my web server) is one that
stopped working oh, 4 years ago or so.

Apparently the one I'd had in it previously stopped working late last night.
So at 11pm, I had to perform computer surgery. Not something I enjoy unless
I'm in the mood. So I go down to the basement to find all my extra network
cards, and hope they work.

I've got 3. Two are ISA. One is PCI. It's the one that stopped working 4
years ago, but it's my only option, as that computer doesn't have any ISA
slots. So I put it in and voila, it works.

So, never throw out a network card. (Unless it catches fire or something.)
It just may magically start working again.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3036

Re: PM - fanart Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 23:36:21 Topic ID# 2992
Yep, that was why. Should be back up in a few minutes.

That "never throw a network card out" thing has saved me twice now.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: erin_hobbit_ofbt [mailto:tgatwater@gbis.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:54 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: PM - fanart



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> Good idea. Now if I could just figure out why my other computer
(the one that is my web server) won't get on the network anymore.....
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder



Does that have something to do with why I can't get the banners page to come
up?
http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html
"Cannot find server - The page cannot be displayed"

I know you are incredibly busy and have about a thousand other things
tugging at you - and that's just in regards to the MEFAs! But I wondered if
I missed the banners being moved or some other notice.
Please forgive me being a pain ... You have done SO much incredible work on
this whole awards, and I can truthfully say the success of it did wonders
towards making me feel good about fandom contests again! :-)

*slinks back into lurkage*

~ Erin







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3037

PM - Author Comments for Co-authored stories Posted by Marta December 03, 2004 - 18:38:08 Topic ID# 3037
I had one comment about the Author awards that I forgot to mention
earlier.

Often some authors will write something with other authors, but also
by themselves. For example, I believe Altariel and Isabeau both wrote
individual pieces in the LotR category but they also wrote "Horses and
Verses" together. Therefore LotR/Authors had three entries: Altariel,
Isabeau, and Altariel&Isabeau. Comments made for A&I counted toward
neither A nor I.

Could an author request that they don't have a joint listing? I.e.,
Altariel and Isabeau could decide to have "Horses and Verses" listed
under both of their names (and so no A&I entry), or to have cowritten
stories listed under a collective name. Here are the two options, as I
see it:

*****
Option 1:

A1. Altariel:
[stories written alone]
"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Isabeau)

A2. Isabeau:
[stories written alone]
"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Altariel)

*****
Option 2:
A1. Altariel:
[stories written alone]

A2. Isabeau:
[stories written alone

A3. Altariel and Isabeau:
"Horses and Verses"

*****

I think many authors might prefer option 1. I know I would have, and
would want it even more if reviewers were allow to post the same
author comment in more than one category.

Maybe we could have the default be option 1, but if writers *only* or
*mainly* write as a pair (i.e., Cassia and Siobhan) they could ask to
be listed together. (We could remind authors of this when we're
writing them to ask how they want their stories categorized.)

What do you think?

Marta

Msg# 3038

Re: PM - Author Comments for Co-authored stories Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 03, 2004 - 19:08:11 Topic ID# 3037
My opinion would be that the authors should be commented upon as individuals for the stories they wrote alone, and commented upon as a team for stories they wrote together.

After all, when you are judging their skill as authors, a large part of what you are judging in a co-author situation is how well the two authors write *together* - that's a totally separate thing from how they write as individuals. Co-authors have to meld their personal writing styles so that their story doesn't read as if two people wrote it (unless that is their intention with a specific piece)- both of them need to be able to mesh their own style so that the transition from one author to another is not noticable. It is a shame when it's evident in an otherwise decent story that Author A wrote this paragraph, and Author B wrote the next.

Marigold

>
>
>I had one comment about the Author awards that I forgot to mention
>earlier.
>
>Often some authors will write something with other authors, but also
>by themselves. For example, I believe Altariel and Isabeau both wrote
>individual pieces in the LotR category but they also wrote "Horses and
>Verses" together. Therefore LotR/Authors had three entries: Altariel,
>Isabeau, and Altariel&Isabeau. Comments made for A&I counted toward
>neither A nor I.
>
>Could an author request that they don't have a joint listing? I.e.,
>Altariel and Isabeau could decide to have "Horses and Verses" listed
>under both of their names (and so no A&I entry), or to have cowritten
>stories listed under a collective name. Here are the two options, as I
>see it:
>
>*****
>Option 1:
>
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Isabeau)
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Altariel)
>
>*****
>Option 2:
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone
>
>A3. Altariel and Isabeau:
>"Horses and Verses"
>
>*****
>
>I think many authors might prefer option 1. I know I would have, and
>would want it even more if reviewers were allow to post the same
>author comment in more than one category.
>
>Maybe we could have the default be option 1, but if writers *only* or
>*mainly* write as a pair (i.e., Cassia and Siobhan) they could ask to
>be listed together. (We could remind authors of this when we're
>writing them to ask how they want their stories categorized.)
>
>What do you think?
>
>Marta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

Msg# 3039

Re: PM - Author Comments for Co-authored stories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 03, 2004 - 21:21:32 Topic ID# 3037
I agree with Marigold. When reviewing an individual author, you are
reviewing that author. But when you are reviewing co-authors, you are
reviewing the team.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: MarigoldCotton@aol.com [mailto:MarigoldCotton@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:08 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM - Author Comments for Co-authored stories


My opinion would be that the authors should be commented upon as individuals
for the stories they wrote alone, and commented upon as a team for stories
they wrote together.

After all, when you are judging their skill as authors, a large part of what
you are judging in a co-author situation is how well the two authors write
*together* - that's a totally separate thing from how they write as
individuals. Co-authors have to meld their personal writing styles so that
their story doesn't read as if two people wrote it (unless that is their
intention with a specific piece)- both of them need to be able to mesh their
own style so that the transition from one author to another is not
noticable. It is a shame when it's evident in an otherwise decent story that
Author A wrote this paragraph, and Author B wrote the next.

Marigold

>
>
>I had one comment about the Author awards that I forgot to mention
>earlier.
>
>Often some authors will write something with other authors, but also by
>themselves. For example, I believe Altariel and Isabeau both wrote
>individual pieces in the LotR category but they also wrote "Horses and
>Verses" together. Therefore LotR/Authors had three entries: Altariel,
>Isabeau, and Altariel&Isabeau. Comments made for A&I counted toward
>neither A nor I.
>
>Could an author request that they don't have a joint listing? I.e.,
>Altariel and Isabeau could decide to have "Horses and Verses" listed
>under both of their names (and so no A&I entry), or to have cowritten
>stories listed under a collective name. Here are the two options, as I
>see it:
>
>*****
>Option 1:
>
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Isabeau)
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Altariel)
>
>*****
>Option 2:
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone
>
>A3. Altariel and Isabeau:
>"Horses and Verses"
>
>*****
>
>I think many authors might prefer option 1. I know I would have, and
>would want it even more if reviewers were allow to post the same author
>comment in more than one category.
>
>Maybe we could have the default be option 1, but if writers *only* or
>*mainly* write as a pair (i.e., Cassia and Siobhan) they could ask to
>be listed together. (We could remind authors of this when we're writing
>them to ask how they want their stories categorized.)
>
>What do you think?
>
>Marta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the
mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote
his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to
him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the
end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high
beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3040

Re: PM - Author Comments for Co-authored stories Posted by Marta December 03, 2004 - 22:43:54 Topic ID# 3037
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> I agree with Marigold. When reviewing an individual author, you are
> reviewing that author. But when you are reviewing co-authors, you
are
> reviewing the team.
>

After reading Marigold's post, I agree with her as well. Consider me
convinced. :-)

(Does that mean I don't have more suggestions? Heck no... )

Marta

Msg# 3041

PM - honourable mention Posted by Marta December 04, 2004 - 14:25:38 Topic ID# 3041
I was looking thorugh the databases and notice how many ties there
were and how close some of the categories were. I know there can only
be three winners (except where ties occur, and even there not much
more than three) and I don't want to take away from the people who won
awards. But it seems like there should be one way to give some of the
really good stories a bit more positive publicity.

Maybe next year we could award an honourable mention to people who got
a certain number of votes (say, 15?) but didn't place in the top three
positions. Or who placed within a certain number of votes of the third
place winner. At the very least, I think those who tied with the third
place should be honoured in some way.

We don't have to give them a banner like we do for first, second, and
third. But we could display the titles of the "honourable mentions" on
the web page (on a separate page from the winners, I think?), and they
could mention that their story won an "MEFA Honourable Mention" in
their story summers.

What do you think? I know in a lot of categories (Men jumps to mind)
some very good stories got a lot of votes, but because the category
was so competitive they did not place in the top three spots.

Marta

Msg# 3042

Re: PM - honourable mention Posted by Nerwen Calaelen December 07, 2004 - 4:41:43 Topic ID# 3041
I agree with Marta that this sounds like a very good
idea. I think it works best saying any stories within
x marks of 3rd place.

Nerwen

--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---------------------------------

I was looking thorugh the databases and notice how
many ties there
were and how close some of the categories were. I know
there can only
be three winners (except where ties occur, and even
there not much
more than three) and I don't want to take away from
the people who won
awards. But it seems like there should be one way to
give some of the
really good stories a bit more positive publicity.

Maybe next year we could award an honourable mention
to people who got
a certain number of votes (say, 15?) but didn't place
in the top three
positions. Or who placed within a certain number of
votes of the third
place winner. At the very least, I think those who
tied with the third
place should be honoured in some way.

We don't have to give them a banner like we do for
first, second, and
third. But we could display the titles of the
"honourable mentions" on
the web page (on a separate page from the winners, I
think?), and they
could mention that their story won an "MEFA Honourable
Mention" in
their story summers.

What do you think? I know in a lot of categories (Men
jumps to mind)
some very good stories got a lot of votes, but because
the category
was so competitive they did not place in the top three
spots.

Marta




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.






___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Msg# 3043

Re: PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Nerwen Calaelen December 07, 2004 - 5:00:08 Topic ID# 3016
--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:


> * Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed
under > Men as
> subcategories.

I think this is a good idea as well because the
decision that these had catogories seemed very
arbitary.

> Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest
> changing the name
> to somehow include all pieces about forces of evil,
> not just orcs.

Could this be done in a way that it focuses on those
characters whio are percieved as evil, without
requiring them to be actually evil?


Aditional catoriries
> 1. Poetry
This would make sense and ease the problems with
trying to get poetry subcatogories viable.

> 2. Drabbles
In the same way I think this is a good idea.



My other comment on catogories would be that it seemed
very confusing to have the three different types of
overall catogory and it seemed that some of them were
so large amnd others so small that the awards were not
actually equal in merit.

Nerwen





___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Msg# 3044

AW: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 6:56:53 Topic ID# 3016
> My other comment on categories would be that it seemed
> very confusing to have the three different types of
> overall catogory and it seemed that some of them were
> so large amnd others so small that the awards were not
> actually equal in merit.
>
> Nerwen

I had the same feeling.

I personally would take only either the time-line
or the race as main category
and make all other things subcategory
or sub-subcategories.

For example, I did not understand why
"Father and sons" by Dwim is
categorized as a drama
while "In his brother's shadow"
by Celandine Brandybuck
is categorized as "Men".
OK, second categorization was mine ;-)
and I did it as I understood the manual.

Why is the darker story by Dwim more a drama
than the lighter story by Cel?
Both render the Gondorian brothers "Mir".

Why is a story about men categorized
as adventure and not as men?
I had my difficulties the whole time
with this many tiered categorization.

Why is a story categorized as Horror
while it is about Elves, time First Age?
I would find it easier if the whole
categorization were only one tree
and not many trees.
So this story would have been
in case of time as first category:
First Age, Elves, Drama, Horror.
I can understand why Ainaechoiriel
introduced the category Horror,
because in the one-tree categorization
First Age, Elves, Horror would
possibly not become viable.
But subsuming Horror into Drama
would solve this problem.

Though I can understand the various
tiers of categorization,
and Ainaechoiriel proposed to let
the authors decide,
I have still problems with such a
variation in categorization.

So, my proposed tree would be:
a) Poetry, Drabble, short story, novel
b) First Age,
Second Age,
Third Age I (Pre-War, includes Hobbit),
Third Age II (War of the Ring - LoTR),
Forth Age
Multi-age
c) Elves (Noldor, Sindar, Avari, else),
Men (Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, else) , Hobbits, Dwarves,
Orks and other creatures, Multi-race
d) drama, love, humour, essay
e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery, crossover, society, philosophy,
techniques

I would put the story type first because this is
for me the largest difference concerning writing skills.

Then comes the time or the races.
I personally prefer time, because many stories
involve various races, while multi-age is seldom.

Depending on the number of nominated stories
Elves and Men should be subdivided
as to achieve that the various sections in the end
contain within limits an evenly distributed
number of fics.

My proposal should be seen only as a draft.
Feel free to tear it asunder, to reassemble, or to add ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3045

Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categorization problems Posted by Nerwen Calaelen December 07, 2004 - 7:04:33 Topic ID# 2988
--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---

> Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could
> split reading season
> up? Have a month reading season for races & places,
> then two weeks or
> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for
> Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third
> month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the
> end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the
> votes, then you
> announce the results.

I really like this suggestion for two reasons; 1) I
did not have time to vote this year as all my
availible time during the voting season went to trying
to keep up with counting (thus even the story comments
I had written earlier did not get sent) and 2) It
gives more clear time usage. However, I know that
Aenae has already vetoed this, so I have another
suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
Have all the catogories open from the start of the
reading season to mid October. THen close the vote
and count it. This has the advantage that the
counting is not done at the same time as the voting
(also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging)
and allows more time to vote and has less confusion
about dstes.

Nerwen



___________________________________________________________
Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.
Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k

Msg# 3046

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Nerwen Calaelen December 07, 2004 - 7:17:55 Topic ID# 3016
--- elanor of aquitania <elanor@codacode.net> wrote:

> So, my proposed tree would be:
> a) Poetry, Drabble, short story, novel
> b) First Age,
> Second Age,
> Third Age I (Pre-War, includes Hobbit),
> Third Age II (War of the Ring - LoTR),
> Forth Age
> Multi-age
> c) Elves (Noldor, Sindar, Avari, else),
> Men (Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, else) , Hobbits,
> Dwarves,
> Orks and other creatures, Multi-race
> d) drama, love, humour, essay
> e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery,
> crossover, society, philosophy,
> techniques

I really like this idea, but a few nitpicks. The
first being where would the line between short story
and novel go?
The second is that many stories do cross over the line
between the 3rd and 4th ages. However this need not
be a problem, but I think it needs thinking about. I
think your level d) is confusing, I'm not quite sure
what the purpose of it is. As I see it e) could just
as well lead directly on from c), but I may be missing
something. :)
The real advantage of this is that it is very clear
exactly where a story should go and has fewer overall
catogories and a more comprehensive scheme.
Like I said, I really like this, just think that it
needs a bit more thinking through. :)

Nerwen



___________________________________________________________
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Msg# 3047

AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categor Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 10:26:12 Topic ID# 2988
> suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
> Have all the catogories open from the start of the
> reading season to mid October. THen close the vote
> and count it. This has the advantage that the
> counting is not done at the same time as the voting
> (also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging)
> and allows more time to vote and has less confusion
> about dstes.
>
> Nerwen


Very good, I would support this:
a long time for reading and voting
and a separate time afterwards for counting.

Though Ainaechoiriel tried to explain why it is better
to count during the voting time I only understood,
that it was organized like that and fixed with the counters.

But if the counters know beforehand
when the all-categories-counting is scheduled
they can opt in or out
according their real life schedule.
Moreover, I think one would get more volunteers
for a time after voting season.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3048

AW: AW: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 11:08:09 Topic ID# 3016
> > d) drama, love, humour, essay
> > e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery,
> > crossover, society, philosophy,
> > techniques
>
> I really like this idea, but a few nitpicks. The
> first being where would the line between short story
> and novel go?

Hi Nerwen,

yes, this a point of discussion.
I think one should define a certain number of characters
to draw the line.
Any suggestions ?

Lets count "Father and sons" by Dwim which is 294656
or "Messages" by Shakes which 566655 characters
without spaces.
"Messages" is for me definitely a novel
and "Father and sons" I would count also as a novel
but this might be arguable.

Thus I would set the line at 250000 characters.
Others might prefer another number.

> The second is that many stories do cross over the line
> between the 3rd and 4th ages. However this need not
> be a problem, but I think it needs thinking about.

That would be Multi-age either or the author should decide,
which age is more important for the story.

> I think your level d) is confusing, I'm not quite sure
> what the purpose of it is. As I see it e) could just
> as well lead directly on from c), but I may be missing
> something. :)

Hmm, I simply thought of perhaps non-viable categories
as drabble - third age I - orcs - drama - horror
which would be subsumed into drama.
And if therein are not enough drabbles nominated
then one level higher
drabble - third age I - orcs
and so on.


But if there are many nominations then
another subcategory (as for Men or Elves) might be useful:
short story - Forth Age - Men - Rohan - humour - romance
(into this I would count Tanaqui's "A Knight's service")
or
short story - Forth Age - Men - Rohan - love - sex
(into this I would count Tanaqui's "Later" and
"Influence of Kindred Desires")

As it was "A Knight's service/ Later" was nominated as one
and thus I would account both together
into the latter category.

I personally would prefer if each segment has
about 5-15 fics (rule IV B says
5 stories by two authors make the category viable).
To achieve an homogeneous distribution I would
even prefer a limit of 10 fics per segment.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3049

Re: PM - honourable mention Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 11:34:34 Topic ID# 3041
That's what I was thinking as soon as I read the subject line. We could
give Honorable mention for any stories within X (5 points?) of 3rd.

A reminder: Please put these suggestions, individually, in the database.
Why? Because my brain gets addled quite easily. I'm a victim of megaStress.
It's hard to concentrate, hard to keep things organized in my head, hard to
remember things. This is all becoming very chaotic to me. I can't keep
track of it all. Please help me in this regard. Please put these in the
database. That's one place that I can go back to and look at what's been
suggested, what's decided and what hasn't. Don't leave me at the mercy of
my inbox and my unreliable memory.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Nerwen Calaelen [mailto:nerwen_calaelen@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:41 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM - honourable mention


I agree with Marta that this sounds like a very good idea. I think it works
best saying any stories within x marks of 3rd place.

Nerwen

--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---------------------------------

I was looking thorugh the databases and notice how many ties there were and
how close some of the categories were. I know there can only be three
winners (except where ties occur, and even there not much more than three)
and I don't want to take away from the people who won awards. But it seems
like there should be one way to give some of the really good stories a bit
more positive publicity.

Maybe next year we could award an honourable mention to people who got a
certain number of votes (say, 15?) but didn't place in the top three
positions. Or who placed within a certain number of votes of the third place
winner. At the very least, I think those who tied with the third place
should be honoured in some way.

We don't have to give them a banner like we do for first, second, and third.
But we could display the titles of the "honourable mentions" on the web page
(on a separate page from the winners, I think?), and they could mention that
their story won an "MEFA Honourable Mention" in their story summers.

What do you think? I know in a lot of categories (Men jumps to mind) some
very good stories got a lot of votes, but because the category was so
competitive they did not place in the top three spots.

Marta




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.






___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com




Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3050

Re: PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 11:53:34 Topic ID# 3016
No to probably all of it.

Why? Because this is part of my vision. Sort of a dream and to change it
so drastically would make it not my dream, not my vision anymore. Part of
the fun was the award names. The more main categoreis, the more award
names. The reason for having three different ways of categorizing stories
was so that there was more of a spread, more award names and a CHOICE for
where to put a story because many stories can fit more than one category.

And since authors will categorize their own stories next year, all of
Elanor's why did this story go there and this story go here questions are
nullified. The answer this year is because the nominators and then the
categorizing staff did the best we could based on the three suggestions for
categories. Next year the answer will be because that's where the author
wanted it and the categorizing staff could best place it based on the
author's three suggestions for categories.

Part of this may seem frivilous, but can you at least wait until I give up
being the admin of this before you completely overhaul it?

On categories this will be my law: The more main categories the better so
long as they are viable. Men/Gondor, for example, this year had 27 stories.
Gondor should probably be its own category so long as it has ample stories
again. Maybe 15 could be our lower bound. If Rohan can put together enough
stories to reach our (democratically set) lower bound, then it should be a
main category, too.

As for overall categories, I think the less the better as we get into
problem areas with those. I'm willing to put up a poll to see if Poetry
should be it's own main category. That could make sense as it is, in some
respects, its own genre. Drabbles are not a genre. They are, yes, a
different kind of story, with their own skillsets needed to write them. But
they are stories. Poems are not stories, per se. So I don't see main
categories for drabbles or vignettes. Sub-categoreis, yes. Main, no.
Novel and short story have the same problem. They are not genres. They are
possible subcategories, but we do run into the where-do-we-draw-the-line
problem.

I will not limit categories to just time or genre. Let the authors choose
how they want them to be categorized. This fandom does work well for
dividing along Men stories, Elves, stories, and Hobbits stories. Some
people only read Hobbits stories. Some only read Elves stories. Regardless
of time or genre, or time or genre only being a secondary consideration. I,
for example, mainly read Legolas and Faramir. So I look for Elves stories,
non-romances, and I look for Faramir stories (not Men, just Faramir),
non-romances.

Maybe we need to turn ourselves around to look at the What Worked? side of
the Post Mortem for a little while.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:57 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories


> My other comment on categories would be that it seemed very confusing
> to have the three different types of overall catogory and it seemed
> that some of them were so large amnd others so small that the awards
> were not actually equal in merit.
>
> Nerwen

I had the same feeling.

I personally would take only either the time-line or the race as main
category and make all other things subcategory or sub-subcategories.

For example, I did not understand why
"Father and sons" by Dwim is
categorized as a drama
while "In his brother's shadow"
by Celandine Brandybuck
is categorized as "Men".
OK, second categorization was mine ;-)
and I did it as I understood the manual.

Why is the darker story by Dwim more a drama than the lighter story by Cel?
Both render the Gondorian brothers "Mir".

Why is a story about men categorized
as adventure and not as men?
I had my difficulties the whole time
with this many tiered categorization.

Why is a story categorized as Horror
while it is about Elves, time First Age?
I would find it easier if the whole
categorization were only one tree
and not many trees.
So this story would have been
in case of time as first category:
First Age, Elves, Drama, Horror.
I can understand why Ainaechoiriel
introduced the category Horror,
because in the one-tree categorization
First Age, Elves, Horror would
possibly not become viable.
But subsuming Horror into Drama
would solve this problem.

Though I can understand the various
tiers of categorization,
and Ainaechoiriel proposed to let
the authors decide,
I have still problems with such a
variation in categorization.

So, my proposed tree would be:
a) Poetry, Drabble, short story, novel
b) First Age,
Second Age,
Third Age I (Pre-War, includes Hobbit),
Third Age II (War of the Ring - LoTR),
Forth Age
Multi-age
c) Elves (Noldor, Sindar, Avari, else),
Men (Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, else) , Hobbits, Dwarves,
Orks and other creatures, Multi-race
d) drama, love, humour, essay
e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery, crossover, society, philosophy,
techniques

I would put the story type first because this is for me the largest
difference concerning writing skills.

Then comes the time or the races.
I personally prefer time, because many stories involve various races, while
multi-age is seldom.

Depending on the number of nominated stories Elves and Men should be
subdivided as to achieve that the various sections in the end contain within
limits an evenly distributed number of fics.

My proposal should be seen only as a draft.
Feel free to tear it asunder, to reassemble, or to add ;-)

Best wishes Elanor




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3051

Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categorization problems Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 12:10:00 Topic ID# 2988
I'm not opening Voting Season up for three or more months. I have given
plenty of options for those who were busy during voting season (not
including counting). Voting early was something I touted from the start and
still advise everyone to do. And I also told people how to have their
e-mail client deliver the message on an assigned date. Some even sent me
their votes and had me post them by proxy.

There is already a poll on whether we will just have one block during voting
season or split voting season up as it was this year. The length of voting
season may be changed as well (though it was voted on before), but there is
a limit to it. 3 months is way over that limit. Most people (non-lurkers)
have wanted it to be shorter. We can't have it both ways anyway.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com





-----Original Message-----
From: Nerwen Calaelen [mailto:nerwen_calaelen@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 7:04 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems


--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---

> Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could
> split reading season
> up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the
> votes, then you
> announce the results.

I really like this suggestion for two reasons; 1) I did not have time to
vote this year as all my availible time during the voting season went to
trying to keep up with counting (thus even the story comments I had written
earlier did not get sent) and 2) It gives more clear time usage. However,
I know that Aenae has already vetoed this, so I have another suggestion -
combine the reading and voting seasons.
Have all the catogories open from the start of the reading season to mid
October. THen close the vote and count it. This has the advantage that the
counting is not done at the same time as the voting (also minimuising the
opportunities for vote rigging) and allows more time to vote and has less
confusion about dstes.

Nerwen



___________________________________________________________
Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail
to make your dream a reality.
Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k




Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3052

Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on categorization problems Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 12:11:28 Topic ID# 2988
As already said, I don't like it. And if we have a computerized counting
process, the counting of the votes won't be a factor anyway. We'd only need
administratoris to make sure there are no discrepancies by the computer.
Counters would only count to fix discrepancies.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:29 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems


> suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
> Have all the catogories open from the start of the reading season to
> mid October. THen close the vote and count it. This has the
> advantage that the counting is not done at the same time as the voting
> (also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging) and allows more
> time to vote and has less confusion about dstes.
>
> Nerwen


Very good, I would support this:
a long time for reading and voting
and a separate time afterwards for counting.

Though Ainaechoiriel tried to explain why it is better to count during the
voting time I only understood, that it was organized like that and fixed
with the counters.

But if the counters know beforehand
when the all-categories-counting is scheduled they can opt in or out
according their real life schedule.
Moreover, I think one would get more volunteers for a time after voting
season.

Best wishes Elanor




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3053

Re: PM: Tweaks to Current Categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 12:32:58 Topic ID# 3016
This was not meant to be a jumping down Elanor's throat so much as a general
plea. Suggestions for making it better, not a complete overhaul. If you
(general you) really don't like the way the awards are done beyond the
comment-based-ness, go make your rules and run your own. There is plenty of
space out here in the internet. Which is what I proved when I was
disappointed with another award program. I made my own.

As I have said before, I will be dictatorial on some things, and democratic
on some things. I will protect the main structure of these awards. Yes, no
one has suggested going off the comment-based concept, but still some really
big changes have been suggested and, quite frankly, it either hurts or gets
stuck in my craw.

Let me give you a little history:

I got fed up with that other awards program and decided that I would make my
own. But what would I call them? How would I set them apart? Yes, they'd
be comment-based, borrow heavily from ASC, but what name would they have?
What would make the Awards themselves special? When I couldn't come up with
a great name that I liked (the "Mathoms" for example was a suggested name
back when the Mitrils were first discussed). I finally hit on the idea of
putting the special name on the awards themselves. Not the overall program,
but the awards titles. I brainstormed with shadow975 because she was on IM
and available at the time. We came up with some likely categories (all the
2004 categories except Orcs and Mystery) and three appropriate awards titles
for each. That was the fun part. Some of those titles changed, but the fun
didn't.

So, the heart of the awards is the comment-based program, but the fun part,
the gimick, if you wish, is the awards titles. I'd rather have Rohan,
Gondor, Numenor, Arnor and whatever, than have 27 subcategories under Men.
Subcategories use the same titles. The banner contest even made it more
fun. Sure, we could have just called them the Middle Earth Fanfiction
Awards and passed out the first place Men/Gondor MEFA. But I liked it
better handing out the Kings of Gondor and Arnor Award for 1st place in
Men/Gondor. And if we have 27 Gondor stories again, than I'll love handing
out the Elessar Telcontar Award for 1st Place Gondor story next year.

And if we ever finish our surprise, you'll see why again it's more fun to
have different awards titles. All those subcategories lead to a lot of
repetition.

Okay, so now we know what I won't change in regards to categoies:
3 main topics/ways of categorzing (Races/Places, Genre, Time/books)
No overalls
(That's all I can remember right now)

So what am I willing to change?
The exact categories within those three main topics (adding Gondor, Poetry,
and Villians, for example, removing Rohan or Orcs if need be)
Author awards....not sure how yet.
The Awards titles thenselves (I generally prefer longer titles over one word
titles)
Some categories are optional (such as the places) and will not be final if
not viable)
New optional categories can be added (based on the number of nominations.
Gondor would have been a candidate this year.)
Other suggestions that don't run into the things I won't change.

Does that help the discussion?

And remember "fairness" of any category relies on YOU, the nominating
members of the group. If you don't think it's fair that Numenor only has 8
stories while Gondor has 27, go out and find some good* Numenor stories and
nominate them.

*Don't nominate less-than-good stories just to fill a category.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:54 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories


No to probably all of it.

Why? Because this is part of my vision. Sort of a dream and to change it
so drastically would make it not my dream, not my vision anymore. Part of
the fun was the award names. The more main categoreis, the more award
names. The reason for having three different ways of categorizing stories
was so that there was more of a spread, more award names and a CHOICE for
where to put a story because many stories can fit more than one category.

And since authors will categorize their own stories next year, all of
Elanor's why did this story go there and this story go here questions are
nullified. The answer this year is because the nominators and then the
categorizing staff did the best we could based on the three suggestions for
categories. Next year the answer will be because that's where the author
wanted it and the categorizing staff could best place it based on the
author's three suggestions for categories.

Part of this may seem frivilous, but can you at least wait until I give up
being the admin of this before you completely overhaul it?

On categories this will be my law: The more main categories the better so
long as they are viable. Men/Gondor, for example, this year had 27 stories.
Gondor should probably be its own category so long as it has ample stories
again. Maybe 15 could be our lower bound. If Rohan can put together enough
stories to reach our (democratically set) lower bound, then it should be a
main category, too.

As for overall categories, I think the less the better as we get into
problem areas with those. I'm willing to put up a poll to see if Poetry
should be it's own main category. That could make sense as it is, in some
respects, its own genre. Drabbles are not a genre. They are, yes, a
different kind of story, with their own skillsets needed to write them. But
they are stories. Poems are not stories, per se. So I don't see main
categories for drabbles or vignettes. Sub-categoreis, yes. Main, no.
Novel and short story have the same problem. They are not genres. They are
possible subcategories, but we do run into the where-do-we-draw-the-line
problem.

I will not limit categories to just time or genre. Let the authors choose
how they want them to be categorized. This fandom does work well for
dividing along Men stories, Elves, stories, and Hobbits stories. Some
people only read Hobbits stories. Some only read Elves stories. Regardless
of time or genre, or time or genre only being a secondary consideration. I,
for example, mainly read Legolas and Faramir. So I look for Elves stories,
non-romances, and I look for Faramir stories (not Men, just Faramir),
non-romances.

Maybe we need to turn ourselves around to look at the What Worked? side of
the Post Mortem for a little while.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:57 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories


> My other comment on categories would be that it seemed very confusing
> to have the three different types of overall catogory and it seemed
> that some of them were so large amnd others so small that the awards
> were not actually equal in merit.
>
> Nerwen

I had the same feeling.

I personally would take only either the time-line or the race as main
category and make all other things subcategory or sub-subcategories.

For example, I did not understand why
"Father and sons" by Dwim is
categorized as a drama
while "In his brother's shadow"
by Celandine Brandybuck
is categorized as "Men".
OK, second categorization was mine ;-)
and I did it as I understood the manual.

Why is the darker story by Dwim more a drama than the lighter story by Cel?
Both render the Gondorian brothers "Mir".

Why is a story about men categorized
as adventure and not as men?
I had my difficulties the whole time
with this many tiered categorization.

Why is a story categorized as Horror
while it is about Elves, time First Age?
I would find it easier if the whole
categorization were only one tree
and not many trees.
So this story would have been
in case of time as first category:
First Age, Elves, Drama, Horror.
I can understand why Ainaechoiriel
introduced the category Horror,
because in the one-tree categorization
First Age, Elves, Horror would
possibly not become viable.
But subsuming Horror into Drama
would solve this problem.

Though I can understand the various
tiers of categorization,
and Ainaechoiriel proposed to let
the authors decide,
I have still problems with such a
variation in categorization.

So, my proposed tree would be:
a) Poetry, Drabble, short story, novel
b) First Age,
Second Age,
Third Age I (Pre-War, includes Hobbit),
Third Age II (War of the Ring - LoTR),
Forth Age
Multi-age
c) Elves (Noldor, Sindar, Avari, else),
Men (Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, else) , Hobbits, Dwarves,
Orks and other creatures, Multi-race
d) drama, love, humour, essay
e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery, crossover, society, philosophy,
techniques

I would put the story type first because this is for me the largest
difference concerning writing skills.

Then comes the time or the races.
I personally prefer time, because many stories involve various races, while
multi-age is seldom.

Depending on the number of nominated stories Elves and Men should be
subdivided as to achieve that the various sections in the end contain within
limits an evenly distributed number of fics.

My proposal should be seen only as a draft.
Feel free to tear it asunder, to reassemble, or to add ;-)

Best wishes Elanor




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links













Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3054

Awards Mistake. Oh dear... Posted by ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 14:56:21 Topic ID# 3054
Now the question is what do we do about it?

We mistakenly gave SilvermoonLady the 3rd place Award for Hobbits
(General), when it should have gone to Ariel for "Of Dwarvish Ale and
the Fairer Sex."

The lattter had 23 points while SilvermoonLady's had 21. Somehow we
overlooked it. Or rather, I did. Either way, I'm very sorry.

So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner
for it. But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady? Do we tell her she
must give it up? Or do we let them both keep them? The latter
wouldn't really be fair because it tied with another story and the
other story wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was
broken).

SilvermoonLady, Ariel (if you're out there?) What do you want to do?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3055

New poll for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 07, 2004 - 15:04:31 Topic ID# 3
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

Voting Season...

o ...needs to be longer
o ...needs to be shorter
o ...is jsut right.


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1538854

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Msg# 3056

Re: Awards Mistake.  Oh dear... Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 07, 2004 - 15:18:13 Topic ID# 3056
Hmmm...I would say that it wouldn't be right at all to take away SilverMoonLady's award because of an administrative error that was caught this far after the announcement of the winners.

You say that the tie for third place was broken, so that she ultimately was given the prize at the time...so should that other story really be brought into this at all at this point? But I am actually a bit confused as to how the tie would actually have been broken, as wouldn't SilverMoonLady and the person she tied with both have got the award?

Anyway, my tuppance would be to give the award to both SilverMoonLady and Ariel at this late stage. It's perfectly reasonable that there be an error or two with something that is this much work, but neither author should be penalised by something that was an administrative error.

Marigold

>
>
>Now the question is what do we do about it?
>
>We mistakenly gave SilvermoonLady the 3rd place Award for Hobbits
>(General), when it should have gone to Ariel for "Of Dwarvish Ale and
>the Fairer Sex."
>
>The lattter had 23 points while SilvermoonLady's had 21.  Somehow we
>overlooked it.  Or rather, I did.  Either way, I'm very sorry.
>
>So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner
>for it.  But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady?  Do we tell her she
>must give it up?  Or do we let them both keep them?  The latter
>wouldn't really be fair because it tied with another story and the
>other story wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was
>broken).
>
>SilvermoonLady, Ariel (if you're out there?) What do you want to do?
>
>--Ainaechoiriel
>MEFA Admin and Founder
>
>"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
>said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
>http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
>Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

Msg# 3057

PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-) Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 15:31:01 Topic ID# 3057
> This was not meant to be a jumping down Elanor's throat so
> much as a general
> plea. Suggestions for making it better, not a complete
> overhaul.

Hi Ainaechoiriel,

I do not feel jumped on my throat ;-)

I think these awards are your brain child.
Nevertheless you made this post mortem
to hear what your participants thought right and what not.
That I did, and will do further, as long as I am allowed ;-)

I am neither the organisator of MEFA nor will I organize
another award, it is much too much work for me.

What worked I think we all saw.

You managed the MEFAwards from the beginning
until the projected end, that in itself is such a
awe inspiring performance that I am left quite
breathless.
I think you could just repeat this next year.

But I think we were all invited by you to write
what each participant thinks could be improved.
What is not thought about and not written about
can never be improved.

So better write down also thoughts
that do not agree with the organizer's wishes
than to leave out also those thoughts
that you did not have
but that you might like to install.

I think it is in the mind of the beholder
what each thinks is a "complete overhaul".
Those persons not so much involved
in the organization see many things
not as important as you feel them
dear to yourself.

So please bear with us
and take from our nitpicking
what you want ;-)

I think nobody will leave MEFAwards
only because the nits picked at
are not reworked as wished by the nitpicker.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3058

RE: [MEFAwards] Awards Mistake.  Oh dear... Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 15:34:07 Topic ID# 3056
Thanks. Ties are broken according to the FAQ, first by number of comments,
then by total number of characters. And you can see the breakdown in the
Tie Breaker database. Here is is for those two stories in question:

Hob6 Moonlight on Summer Leaves 21 4 1897
Hob8 Recollections 21 4 1987

Since the other story didn't receive an award in the first place, do we let
it go? Nothing to take away?

I'd like to get SilvermoonLady's and Ariel's opinion on this. I'm with you
that neither should be penalized because of adminstrative mistakes.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: MarigoldCotton@aol.com [mailto:MarigoldCotton@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:18 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Awards Mistake. Oh dear...


Hmmm...I would say that it wouldn't be right at all to take away
SilverMoonLady's award because of an administrative error that was caught
this far after the announcement of the winners.

You say that the tie for third place was broken, so that she ultimately was
given the prize at the time...so should that other story really be brought
into this at all at this point? But I am actually a bit confused as to how
the tie would actually have been broken, as wouldn't SilverMoonLady and the
person she tied with both have got the award?

Anyway, my tuppance would be to give the award to both SilverMoonLady and
Ariel at this late stage. It's perfectly reasonable that there be an error
or two with something that is this much work, but neither author should be
penalised by something that was an administrative error.

Marigold

>
>
>Now the question is what do we do about it?
>
>We mistakenly gave SilvermoonLady the 3rd place Award for Hobbits
>(General), when it should have gone to Ariel for "Of Dwarvish Ale and
>the Fairer Sex."
>
>The lattter had 23 points while SilvermoonLady's had 21.  Somehow we
>overlooked it.  Or rather, I did.  Either way, I'm very sorry.
>
>So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner for
>it.  But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady?  Do we tell her she must
>give it up?  Or do we let them both keep them?  The latter wouldn't
>really be fair because it tied with another story and the other story
>wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was broken).
>
>SilvermoonLady, Ariel (if you're out there?) What do you want to do?
>
>--Ainaechoiriel
>MEFA Admin and Founder
>
>"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said,
>"for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
>http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
>Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the
mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote
his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to
him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the
end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high
beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK





Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3059

Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 15:38:58 Topic ID# 3059
I didn't mean to kill discussion though it appears that I did. I really
didn't mean to do that. I will never please everyone with these awards. But
if I'd asked for volunteers to set up a committee to discuss how to do them
1) It would have taken months to set up and 2) it would have changed from my
dream again. That's what happened with the Mithrils. I put forth the idea
of comment-based and it seemed to scare people.

Now, I know we're not arguing about the comment-based, and I'm glad. It
seems to have won people over. The recategorization thing is getting to me
though. Which you saw in my last couple of posts. Sometimes its hard for
me to articulate what I really think. Sometims it's hard for me to
straighten out what I really think. I hope I did better in the latter post
on the subject. While the comments are the heart, the award titles are the
gimick. And though a gimick may not be important in the big scheme of
things, it is often what sets something apart. I don't want to lose that
gimmick. I'd rather have new categories and have to come up with award
titles for them. Without going overboard, of course. Thus the lower and
upper bounds.

Anyway, on to other things. These are issues in the database or that I can
remember that aren't in the database. These have not been decided. These
are not yet into polls. These are open for discussion.

!) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?
It has been suggested by some to put Authors as a main category with Poetry,
Drabble, and Vignette, etc., underneath. came up with a why not just today:
That whole hting about only a few people getting all the awards. Think
about it. I f you're reading a story and you like it and you rmember to
write up a comment on it while you still remember it, but you don't write up
a comment about the author because you may read more stories by that same
author. Voting Season comes around and you post your story comments, then
you get to your author comments and realize that you can't remember what to
say about that author. You write comments on your favorite authors that you
do remember. Easier to write your comment when you read the story by the
author, just like when you write the story comment. It's the so-called
popular or prolific or big name authors who will win. Not much chance for
the new guy with only one short story.

Also if we don't break up Author also by genre, time, or race/place, we end
up with only three awards for all Author General authors. Ouch.

2) Honorable Mention
The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What qualifies? So
far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X points below
3rd place.

So what would X be? 5, 10, 15? Any other options, or should I put those
three numbers in a poll?

3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs. one-off
stories)
I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it? Word-count may
not be available at every archive. Neither is chapter at easy glance
always. I used to post all my stories on one page at ff.net (when ff.net
started, there wasn't a chaptering feature). Of course that was before I
write as Ainaechoiriel, and I've not written anything longer than a chapter
as Ainaechoiriel, but the possibility still exists.

Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel? If so, how
do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene generally. But what
about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a novella
compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite line? No more
than X characters?

5) Changing/Adding/Removing categories.
It's own can of worms.

6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
Good idea, but logistically problematic. We don't archive stories, so how
would we police that? The only thing I can think of is that we make a
suggestion to voters that they don't have to read more than the first two
chapters or some such.

Well, I couldn't remember any others that weren't in the database. Thus,
it's important to put them in the database.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3060

Re: PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-) Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 15:44:07 Topic ID# 3057
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:33 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-)


> This was not meant to be a jumping down Elanor's throat so much as a
> general plea. Suggestions for making it better, not a complete
> overhaul.

>Hi Ainaechoiriel,

>I do not feel jumped on my throat ;-)

Thanks. I'm glad you didn't. I was away from this for most of the weekend
and coming back it was just too much, I think. It was easier when I saw it
every day.

>I think these awards are your brain child.
Nevertheless you made this post mortem
to hear what your participants thought right and what not.
That I did, and will do further, as long as I am allowed ;-)

>I am neither the organisator of MEFA nor will I organize another award, it
is much too much work for me.

It *is* a lot of work, I'll give you that. And perhaps more than my brain
can best manage. I have seriously some problems with my brain due to
massive amounts of stress. The neurologists are stumped as they can find no
"hardware" reason for it. So nothing to fix. I'm stumped, too, and a
little depressed. Taking on the MEFAs was perhaps more than I should have,
but I loved it anyway.

>What worked I think we all saw.

>You managed the MEFAwards from the beginning until the projected end, that
in itself is such a awe inspiring performance that I am left quite
breathless.
I think you could just repeat this next year.

Thank you. I needed that little boost. ;-)

Those serious brain proble

But I think we were all invited by you to write what each participant thinks
could be improved.
What is not thought about and not written about can never be improved.

So better write down also thoughts
that do not agree with the organizer's wishes than to leave out also those
thoughts that you did not have but that you might like to install.

I think it is in the mind of the beholder what each thinks is a "complete
overhaul".
Those persons not so much involved
in the organization see many things
not as important as you feel them
dear to yourself.

So please bear with us
and take from our nitpicking
what you want ;-)

I think nobody will leave MEFAwards
only because the nits picked at
are not reworked as wished by the nitpicker.

Best wishes Elanor




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3061

PM: as many different minds and opinions as persons Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 15:57:00 Topic ID# 3061
> Voting early was something I touted
> from the start and
> still advise everyone to do.

You did !
But this person here is one hunted by real life dates
that I always do first what is most pressing ;-)

So probably I will behave again badly
and postpone reading and voting until
the very last hour ;-)
Sorry about that, but so is my mind's organization.
I think Nerwen has a similar problem
as she counted to fulfil her promises
and did not send her votes because she
accounted this as a little bit less pressing.

There might be more personalities
like ours ;-)

> And I also told people how to
> have their
> e-mail client deliver the message on an assigned date.

Yes, you did !
But then I thought, my PC has to be at least
powered and my e-mail program started
to send the message. In this case
I would have to be at home on amnesty date
or any other decisive voting time.
And then there is no need any more to
set the e-mail client to an assigned date.
Because I wrote the votes into an prepared e-mail
anyhow stored on the hard disk.

My problem is to have the e-mail client working
in the decisive phases.
This _is_ easier during a week of voting
but was not on amnesty day which was
on a weekend if I remember rightly.

Maybe you thought on the provider client ?
I have never tested this as well.
Maybe I will have tested this until next year.

> Some
> even sent me
> their votes and had me post them by proxy.

I will consider this next time ;-)

>
> There is already a poll on whether we will just have one
> block during voting
> season or split voting season up as it was this year. The
> length of voting
> season may be changed as well (though it was voted on
> before), but there is
> a limit to it.

Yes, I voted :-)

> 3 months is way over that limit. Most people
> (non-lurkers) have wanted it to be shorter.
> We can't have it both ways anyway.

Sigh, there are so many different minds and opinions
as there are persons !

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3062

FW: [MEFAwards] PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-) Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 15:59:29 Topic ID# 3062
I HATE it when I accidentally send before I'm ready because my fingers get
tied up on the keyboard and punch in the wrong sequence of buttons....

Continued below from where I left off.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:45 PM
To: 'MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-)



-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:33 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-)


> This was not meant to be a jumping down Elanor's throat so much as a
> general plea. Suggestions for making it better, not a complete
> overhaul.

>Hi Ainaechoiriel,

>I do not feel jumped on my throat ;-)

Thanks. I'm glad you didn't. I was away from this for most of the weekend
and coming back it was just too much, I think. It was easier when I saw it
every day.

>I think these awards are your brain child.
Nevertheless you made this post mortem
to hear what your participants thought right and what not.
That I did, and will do further, as long as I am allowed ;-)

>I am neither the organisator of MEFA nor will I organize another award, it
is much too much work for me.

It *is* a lot of work, I'll give you that. And perhaps more than my brain
can best manage. I have seriously some problems with my brain due to
massive amounts of stress. The neurologists are stumped as they can find no
"hardware" reason for it. So nothing to fix. I'm stumped, too, and a
little depressed. Taking on the MEFAs was perhaps more than I should have,
but I loved it anyway.

>What worked I think we all saw.

>You managed the MEFAwards from the beginning until the projected end, that
in itself is such a awe inspiring performance that I am left quite
breathless.
I think you could just repeat this next year.

Thank you. I needed that little boost. ;-)

Those serious brain problems keep me from fully understanding, or even
really reading what you've written below. It's an aphasic symptom. I see the
words and most of them don't register any meaning with me. It's not a
problem of your writing. It's a problem of me reading and it's very
annoying. It's why I've been seeing a neurologist.

So, I will try to glean the gist of what you've said and make an intelligent
response if I can.

>But I think we were all invited by you to write what each participant
thinks could be improved.
What is not thought about and not written about can never be improved.

>So better write down also thoughts
that do not agree with the organizer's wishes than to leave out also those
thoughts that you did not have but that you might like to install.

I think you are saying it's better to bring things up and risk being told No
than to not say anything. You'd be right.

>I think it is in the mind of the beholder what each thinks is a "complete
overhaul".
Those persons not so much involved
in the organization see many things
not as important as you feel them
dear to yourself.

I think you are saying here that what I feel is important may not be felt to
be important by others and they can't know until I say something. You'd be
right again. I just have to say that my brain does not always cooperate. It
wsn't until this came up that I *felt* the suggestion of a complete overhaul
that I was able to organize the thought that why that category structure is
important to me. I'm getting a better handle on it as we go along. Maybe
I'll have something concrete by next years post-mortem that says: this will
not change, this is negotiable, and that sort of thing.

>So please bear with us
and take from our nitpicking
what you want ;-)

Thanks. I will and thank you for bearing with me! Brain-addled as I am.

>I think nobody will leave MEFAwards
only because the nits picked at
are not reworked as wished by the nitpicker.

Well, someone did leave though I can't say for sure this was why.

Thanks, Elanor!

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3063

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem recap Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 17:15:25 Topic ID# 3063
>!) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

I have no strong opinion on Author comments.
I like them, I would leave them as before in their
respective categories. No changes needed for this person.

Suggestion: Poll

> 2) Honorable Mention
> The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What
> qualifies? So
> far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving
> X points below
> 3rd place.
>
> So what would X be? 5, 10, 15? Any other options, or should
> I put those
> three numbers in a poll?

I think it should not be a number.
IMO those losing the tie break should get a mention
and the places 4 and 5 if there are more than
10 nominations in the segment.

>
> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories
> vs. one-off
> stories)
> I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?
> Word-count may
> not be available at every archive.

The nominator should count the words or characters
via a program like Word.

>
> Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella,
> novel? If so, how
> do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene
> generally. But what
> about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a novella
> compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

As I wrote for me 500000 characters is definitely a novel.
250000 might be a novella.

>
> 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
> The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite
> line? No more
> than X characters?

I think, after my experiences as the offender,
the quote should not change the points
allotted to the story.
But this is difficult to administrate and to police.

So I would vote for "favourite lines"
with less than 200 characters
because 250 characters is
roughly the segmentation
between Points 5, 7, and 9

But I am in favour of quoting,
there might be persons who set the limit at
100 characters.

The voter should add the number of quoted characters
to facilitate policing via spot checks.

And quotes have to be included into quotation marks.
I didn't do it sometimes, because it was clear
through the formatting in the vote.
But the formatting got lost in the procedure.

> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
> Good idea, but logistically problematic. We don't archive
> stories, so how
> would we police that? The only thing I can think of is that we make a
> suggestion to voters that they don't have to read more than
> the first two
> chapters or some such.

Umh, I nominated a WIP of novel length
so that it should be read in whole.

And I have the feeling the whole WIP should be
taken into consideration for voting.
But this is my personal feeling.

Why ?
"Captain, my Captain" by Isabeau
in the first chapters
for me is gorgeous but I cannot follow
the heroine into the second part.

So if I had read only the first chapters
I would have written a 10 points comment.
But for my taste the story develops
into a direction I cannot follow,
so the 10 points comment is out.

Others might see it just in opposite
(in this or another fic),
they do not like the beginning but
are hooked after a few chapters.


>
> Well, I couldn't remember any others that weren't in the
> database. Thus,
> it's important to put them in the database.

Hmm, somehow I do not feel able to put
my thoughts into the database
(aside of the quotation memos).
My thoughts are too long and too many
of my opinions are aside of the mainstream ;-)
I believe I would inundate the database with my suggestions.

If you really want my suggestions in the database
please repeat your request
(the one tree categorization scheme would be one
of them though already nixed).

Until now I had the impression that only things
already discussed but still undecided by you
should go into the database.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3064

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Laura December 07, 2004 - 17:31:57 Topic ID# 3059
*bouncing along to send in her own two cents*

Hey all! I think I may have a few coherent thoughts, so I'm wandering
in to share them. And I'm working off the recaps, so I hope you can
still follow me.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
>> !) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

I agree with Ainae about the style contrasts and breaking up the
authors by categories. I can think of two or three exceptional
authors who won in their categories but only had a single short story
in all the awards. I don't think they would have won if the author
category included ALL novels or ALL drabbles. So I like the fact that
the authors were separated into categories.

On the other hand, there were not a lot of author votes as a general
rule. That's not a very democratic way to hand out author awards. So
in that light, something does need to change. Maybe we just need to
encourage author votes. Maybe even make it a requirement that on the
submitted ballots, people include at least one author vote, even if
they don't want to comment on the rest. I hesitate to do that and I
can't think of a good way to enforce it, but maybe someone else can
make something of it.

>> 2) Honorable Mention
>> The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What
qualifies? So
>> far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X
points below
>> 3rd place.

I'd put the numbers in a poll. My own vote would be for 5 points as
the honorable mention cutoff, but that's me. Others might feel
differently.

>> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.
one-off
>> stories)
>> I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?

I'm a little curious as to WHY we would do it, actually. The only
thing I can think of is to save time for those who are really busy
and can't read the longer stories. Which I understand completely, but
that raises another issue: Would this bias the awards against the
long stories? But I'll get to that later, actually. It comes in on
Number 5.

>> Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel?
If so, how
>> do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene
generally. But what
>> about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a
novella
>> compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

We'd probably have to do it with either a chapter or a word count.
Word count would be more impartial as authors differ wildly as far as
length of chapters is concerned. Chapter count might be easier,
though, because most archives can tell you how many chapters even if
they don't give you a word count.

But as for that vignette thing... Yes, they're typically defined as a
single scene, but I can think of a story or two that is one long
scene over the course of several chapters. Does that still count as a
vignette? If we label things, we'd probably have to do it as word or
chapter count across the board.

(I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to
highlight a few issues that might come up if we start separating
things out like this.)

>> 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
>> The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite line?
No more
>> than X characters?

I'd limit it to a favorite line per vote (line meaning sentence or
equivelent). I think limiting it to a certain number of characters
would feel arbitrary. But if we go with character count, I'd limit it
to no more than 75 characters. Maybe even less.

>> 5) Changing/Adding/Removing categories.
>> It's own can of worms.

And it's a big can, too. ;) But I think we need to look at this for a
couple reasons.

1) Gondor, Rohan, and Numenor - Gondor had far more stories in it
than either Rohan or Numenor did, yet Gondor was a subcategory and
Rohan and Numenor were both full categories. That seems a little
strange to me. I would have voted for putting them all under Men as
subcategories.

2) Long stories and short stories - This gets problematic as I
mentioned before, but I noticed in my ballot counting that longer
stories received far fewer votes than shorter stories. The reason is
simple: people have time to read and comment on short stories. Long
stories don't always get read because of the simple fact that they're
long. The result of this is that long stories are at a disadvantage
when they're competing against short stories. I would definitely be
in favor of splitting up the novels and the vignettes provided we can
agree on a way to do it. It's finding that way that's the problem.

3) Multiple categories apply - There were a few stories that could
have fit into upwards of seven different categories, and that makes
them hard to place. I like the idea of authors categorizing their own
stories. After all, authors know the work better than anyone else. I
also liked the idea that either Elana or Marta came up with. (Can't
remember who it was now.) But the idea involved having a system
where stories are first categorized by race, then time, then book,
then feel, etc. I like the separate categories of Horror, Drama,
etc., but a lot of those stories would have done well competing in
categories like Rohan or Elves. And I can think of a few stories in
Men that would have done well in Drama or Mystery.

Maybe we should confine categories to races (elves and men and
hobbits) and time periods (or books) for the that cover several
races. Then within these categories, there can be subcategories for
horror, mystery, drama, Gondor, Rohan, etc.

I also like the idea of having a separate AU category. Maybe we could
combine it with the Crossover? Or have crossover as a subcategory
within AU?

>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this and
then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

Thundera

Msg# 3065

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Laura December 07, 2004 - 17:38:03 Topic ID# 3059
Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the
vote (provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some
reasons why, so I won't reiterate.


> >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
> logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this
and
> then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

Msg# 3066

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Laura December 07, 2004 - 17:38:22 Topic ID# 3059
Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the
vote (provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some
reasons why, so I won't reiterate.


> >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
> logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this
and
> then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

Msg# 3067

wanted: Beta-reader Posted by pipkinsweetgrass December 07, 2004 - 17:42:07 Topic ID# 3067
One of the reasons I joined this group was to help me become a better
writer. I adore JRRT fan fic, and writing it has been such a help to
me. I wrote a monster of a story, one of my first, called The Bee
Charmer. It needs a beta read something awful. If anyone is interested
in helping me out with this please let me know.

What I need in a beta reader is someone who loves Boromir and his
relationship with Merry and Pippin, and who has a sense of spiritual
values, as this story deals heavily with self-redemption and a
familial love shared between my favorite Gondorian and his two
favorite hobbits. It also deals heavily with the afterlife, and is
unashamedly non-canon. Boromir goes through a lot of changes, but the
story explains how he traverses this inner journey.

Someone please have mercy on this poor hack and help me with
this...it's too good a story to not be beta-ed. I hate the first
couple of chapters. If you can beta this I would be eternally
grateful. Puncuation nazis are more than welcome, as I hate bad
punctuation, but a sense of humor is a plus as well.

Anyone interested may contact me by e mail at pipkinsweetgrass@yahoo.com.

I'm learning a good bit just by visiting this place and look forward
to getting to know you all.

Thanks for setting all this up. The workload must be awesome and I'm
sure the pay is lousy. ; D

Msg# 3068

AW: [MEFAwards] PM: Thoughts and Wishes clashing ;-) Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 17:43:12 Topic ID# 3068
> >So better write down also thoughts
> that do not agree with the organizer's wishes than to leave
> out also those
> thoughts that you did not have but that you might like to install.
>
> I think you are saying it's better to bring things up and
> risk being told No
> than to not say anything. You'd be right.

Hi Ainaechoiriel,
you did understand my words as I meant them :-)

I am sorry that I write not as understandable as others
but English is my second language and thus I can only
try to be understandable. My first language will ever
colour my sentence building.

>
> >I think it is in the mind of the beholder what each thinks
> is a "complete
> overhaul".
> Those persons not so much involved
> in the organization see many things
> not as important as you feel them
> dear to yourself.
>
> I think you are saying here that what I feel is important may
> not be felt to
> be important by others and they can't know until I say
> something. You'd be right again.

Yes, that was my meaning :-)

> just have to say that my brain does not
> always cooperate. It
> wsn't until this came up that I *felt* the suggestion of a
> complete overhaul
> that I was able to organize the thought that why that
> category structure is
> important to me. I'm getting a better handle on it as we go
> along. Maybe
> I'll have something concrete by next years post-mortem that
> says: this will
> not change, this is negotiable, and that sort of thing.

That would be good. But please take into account
that things already nixed might be so important
to a participant that this person forgets or
represses your nixing.
So it might occur that you have to repeat your
decision to an obstinate participant
(one of them would be probably me).

We live all in our own minds,
so feel not rankled if some suggestions
come up again and again.

>
> >So please bear with us
> and take from our nitpicking
> what you want ;-)
>
> Thanks. I will and thank you for bearing with me!
> Brain-addled as I am.

I admire you for your dedication.
But perhaps the MEFA stress also
adds to you life.
As MEFA decides not on your income
and the paying of your bills
(at least I hope so for you)
I wish for you that can detach yourself enough
to relax sometimes.

This person here would prefer
if you would relax and take it easy.

We need you !

I think it is more important that
the MEFAwards would be repeated unchanged
as that you are brooding about changes
and forget to relax.

>
> >I think nobody will leave MEFAwards
> only because the nits picked at
> are not reworked as wished by the nitpicker.
>
> Well, someone did leave though I can't say for sure this was why.

OK, I see what you mean.
This was again my own view on things.
It depends probably on how important
the nitpicker sees her opinions.

For me MEFA itself is far more important than any improvements.

Best wishes Elanor
And do take some time off !

Msg# 3069

AW: [MEFAwards] wanted: Beta-reader Posted by elanor of aquitania December 07, 2004 - 17:48:20 Topic ID# 3067
> What I need in a beta reader is someone who loves Boromir and his
> relationship with Merry and Pippin, and who has a sense of spiritual
> values, as this story deals heavily with self-redemption and a
> familial love shared between my favorite Gondorian and his two
> favorite hobbits. It also deals heavily with the afterlife, and is
> unashamedly non-canon. Boromir goes through a lot of changes, but the
> story explains how he traverses this inner journey.

I would recommend that you ask Aeneid at HASA,
she is writing herself an AU-"Boromir lives" fic
with allusions to Greek mythology.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3070

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] wanted: Beta-reader Posted by Antoinette Brenion December 07, 2004 - 18:08:05 Topic ID# 3067
If you are willing to wait until after the holidays, I would be honored to
beta for you. Unfortunately, I have several items to beta, a son coming
home from college on the 17th and the typical insanity that is December.

RiverOtter

Msg# 3071

Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear... Posted by Dawn Martinez-Byrne December 07, 2004 - 18:25:07 Topic ID# 3054
So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner
for it. But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady? Do we tell her she
must give it up? Or do we let them both keep them? The latter
wouldn't really be fair because it tied with another story and the
other story wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was
broken).


The best thing to do is let her keep it. Makes for happy people all around.

khazar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3072

Catagorizing stories by length Posted by angelabrooks@yahoo.com December 07, 2004 - 21:37:52 Topic ID# 3072
I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing
against each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being
able to read more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the
advantage of being able to have much more complicated and fully
developed plot and characterization. In general, I think it would be
more fair to compare works of similar lenght to each other, whether as
main categories or subcategories.

I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
successfully. The word lengths of the established categories reflect
the commonly used definitions in the publishing world. Here it is
quoted from the Nebula site:

Awards will be made in the following categories:

1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a
novella-length work published individually, rather than as part of a
collection or an anthology, shall appear in the novel category.


These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
problem.

Elana

Msg# 3073

Re: PM: Author comments Posted by bljean@aol.com December 07, 2004 - 22:25:58 Topic ID# 3073
Encourage such votes, yes, and perhaps I will even write one, though it goes
against the grain. I tried to write author comments this time around and my
brain just froze at trying to generalise. Perhaps it's because I wrote such
extensive comments in the stories, and didn't want to appear to be vote-stacking
(or whatever the term might be) by repeating myself.

But after reading a great many Author Votes, now that it's all over, I have
an idea of what to do. Hurrah.

Might I make a suggestion about such? (This might even have been done this
year, I don't know, I've been pretty out of the loop due to various issues.
Barely got the reading and voting done in one category. Hoping for better next
year.)

How about having sample "votes" for a make-believe story and make-believe
author vote?

Something like this: (disclaimer: if this is a real author, or if these are
real titles, well, I've never heard of them!)

Sample vote:

Better and Better by NotJRRT

Absolutely fantastic story! From the first sentence, the author pulls you
into an amazing journey through the length and breadth of Middle-earth. The
characterisations were spot-on. Hits you right in the gut with a surprise ending
that I don't want to give away, if you haven't read it yet. And all this in just
the length of a drabble!

Sample Author Vote:

NotJrRT (Better and Better, Like a Hot Knife through Butterbur, Death! Death!
Death!)
This author is new to me; I've never read anything quite like the drabbles in
this category. An amazing sweep of imagination in a marvellous economy of
carefully-chosen words. I'm looking forward to future endeavors!

Thanks,
Lin

In a message dated 12/7/2004 3:45:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
On the other hand, there were not a lot of author votes as a general
rule. That's not a very democratic way to hand out author awards. So
in that light, something does need to change. Maybe we just need to
encourage author votes. Maybe even make it a requirement that on the
submitted ballots, people include at least one author vote, even if
they don't want to comment on the rest. I hesitate to do that and I
can't think of a good way to enforce it, but maybe someone else can
make something of it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3074

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 23:20:16 Topic ID# 3063
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:18 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem recap


>!) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

>I have no strong opinion on Author comments.
I like them, I would leave them as before in their respective categories. No
changes needed for this person.

I like having them and have enjoyed receiving them for years from the ASC
awards. But I do recognize that they are harder to write, at least to write
well. And even at ASC there are less of them than there are story votes.

>Suggestion: Poll

Ah, but we don't yet have the different choices to put in the poll.

> 2) Honorable Mention
> The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What qualifies?
> So far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X
> points below 3rd place.
>
> So what would X be? 5, 10, 15? Any other options, or should I put
> those three numbers in a poll?

>I think it should not be a number.
IMO those losing the tie break should get a mention and the places 4 and 5
if there are more than 10 nominations in the segment.

I do like the idea of numbers. There was one tie broken by one character!
And some fourth places were very close even though there were less than 10
nominations. Hobbits/LOTR for example, the third place story had 21 points.
The fourth place had 18. There were only five nominations.


> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.
> one-off
> stories)
> I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?
> Word-count may
> not be available at every archive.

>The nominator should count the words or characters via a program like Word.

I think that would be too much work. And character counting should only be
for votes. It's not a normal way of counting stories. Word-count is what
publishers use. We only use it for vote counting to be more accurate, as
words can be different lengths.

>
> Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel? If
> so, how do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene
> generally. But what about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34
> pages. What's a novella compared to a novel? Where do we draw the
> line?

>As I wrote for me 500000 characters is definitely a novel.
250000 might be a novella.

Again, we need to look at word-count if we go that way.

> 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes The decision is yes,
> but to what do we limit it? Favorite line? No more than X
> characters?

>I think, after my experiences as the offender, the quote should not change
the points allotted to the story.
But this is difficult to administrate and to police.

It's hard to count the characters of the whole comment and then subtract out
the characters of the quotes. We need to make it as easy as possible for
vote counters. If we need vote counters at all. I'd love to have the count
be electronic. Then, it still couldn't discount the quote.

>So I would vote for "favourite lines"
with less than 200 characters
because 250 characters is
roughly the segmentation
between Points 5, 7, and 9

>But I am in favour of quoting,
there might be persons who set the limit at 100 characters.

>The voter should add the number of quoted characters to facilitate policing
via spot checks.

>And quotes have to be included into quotation marks.
I didn't do it sometimes, because it was clear through the formatting in the
vote.
But the formatting got lost in the procedure.

Formatting was really strange at times. You can't have a hard return in an
Excel spreadsheet. So my comments didn't. I copied them into the ballot and
then poof, the lines broke up. Go figure.

Anyway, I'm all for favorite line/lines with a limit on characters. Just not
sure where to set the limit.

> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered Good idea, but
> logistically problematic. We don't archive stories, so how would we
> police that? The only thing I can think of is that we make a
> suggestion to voters that they don't have to read more than the first
> two chapters or some such.

>Umh, I nominated a WIP of novel length
so that it should be read in whole.

>And I have the feeling the whole WIP should be taken into consideration for
voting.
But this is my personal feeling.

>Why ?
"Captain, my Captain" by Isabeau
in the first chapters
for me is gorgeous but I cannot follow
the heroine into the second part.

>So if I had read only the first chapters I would have written a 10 points
comment.
But for my taste the story develops
into a direction I cannot follow,
so the 10 points comment is out.

>Others might see it just in opposite
(in this or another fic),
they do not like the beginning but
are hooked after a few chapters.

Well, the thing is that very large WIPs may not be read. I know that when I
had limitted time left for reading and voting, I had to choose which stories
I was going to try to squeeze in. There was one WIP I have been wanting to
read. But when I saw it had 24 chapters, I let it go, reasoning that I'll
have another chance when it runs as complete.

Large WIPs are daunting. And many people prefer not to read WIPs at all.
That's why a suggestion that the voter only needs to read the first one or
two chapters might encourage people to read at least those first two
chapters of a story they may have foregone if they had to read the first 24.
Then if they are hooked by those first two chapters, they can always read
more if they choose to.

> Well, I couldn't remember any others that weren't in the
> database. Thus,
> it's important to put them in the database.

>Hmm, somehow I do not feel able to put
my thoughts into the database
(aside of the quotation memos).
My thoughts are too long and too many
of my opinions are aside of the mainstream ;-)
I believe I would inundate the database with my suggestions.

>If you really want my suggestions in the database
please repeat your request
(the one tree categorization scheme would be one
of them though already nixed).

Yes, I do want them in the database (boil them down to a statement)

>Until now I had the impression that only things
already discussed but still undecided by you
should go into the database.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. No, with my memory, if you don't want
it forgoten about, you should put it in the database. A piece of advice to
everyone when dealing with me: don't rely on my memory. It can be a great
memory. When it remembers anything.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3075

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 23:48:25 Topic ID# 3059
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura [mailto:swordofomens@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:32 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap



>*bouncing along to send in her own two cents*

Inflations hit. We'll need three more cents from you. ;-)

>Hey all! I think I may have a few coherent thoughts, so I'm wandering in to
share them. And I'm working off the recaps, so I hope you can still follow
me.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
>> !) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

>I agree with Ainae about the style contrasts and breaking up the
authors by categories. I can think of two or three exceptional
authors who won in their categories but only had a single short story
in all the awards. I don't think they would have won if the author
category included ALL novels or ALL drabbles. So I like the fact that
the authors were separated into categories.

Right.

>On the other hand, there were not a lot of author votes as a general
rule.

Right again.

>That's not a very democratic way to hand out author awards. So
in that light, something does need to change.

Not ideal, but it is democratic. Just like when we elect a president when
only 27% of the elligible population votes.

> Maybe we just need to
encourage author votes. Maybe even make it a requirement that on the
submitted ballots, people include at least one author vote, even if
they don't want to comment on the rest. I hesitate to do that and I
can't think of a good way to enforce it, but maybe someone else can
make something of it.

That's one option. How to enforce it, however.... I don't know either.

>> 2) Honorable Mention

>I'd put the numbers in a poll. My own vote would be for 5 points as
the honorable mention cutoff, but that's me. Others might feel
differently.

I think it should be close and since point count isn't character count, a
small number is best. So last chance for discussion. I feel like calling
this one at 5. Speak now or forever hold your piece on this topic.

>>> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.
one-off
>> stories)
>> I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?

>I'm a little curious as to WHY we would do it, actually. The only
thing I can think of is to save time for those who are really busy
and can't read the longer stories. Which I understand completely, but
that raises another issue: Would this bias the awards against the
long stories? But I'll get to that later, actually. It comes in on
Number 5.

Well, I do like knowing what I'm biting into when I start reading a story.
But I also don't want to bias readers against long stories. More on this
later.

>> Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel?
If so, how
>> do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene
generally. But what
>> about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a
novella
>> compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

>We'd probably have to do it with either a chapter or a word count.
Word count would be more impartial as authors differ wildly as far as
length of chapters is concerned. Chapter count might be easier,
though, because most archives can tell you how many chapters even if
they don't give you a word count.

Either way though, it puts more burden on the nominator if the archive
doesn't show either word count or chapter count. We could possibly use
something more vague: really short, short, fairly long, long, very long.

>But as for that vignette thing... Yes, they're typically defined as a
single scene, but I can think of a story or two that is one long
scene over the course of several chapters. Does that still count as a
vignette? If we label things, we'd probably have to do it as word or
chapter count across the board.

Well, I'd say one scene in one chapter if that's the case. A multiple
chapter one-scene story isn't a vignette as far as I know.

>(I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to
highlight a few issues that might come up if we start separating
things out like this.)

No problem. Understood.

>> 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
>> The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite line?
No more
>> than X characters?

>I'd limit it to a favorite line per vote (line meaning sentence or
equivelent). I think limiting it to a certain number of characters
would feel arbitrary. But if we go with character count, I'd limit it
to no more than 75 characters. Maybe even less.

I think my problem is that I can't visualize 75 characters or 200.

>> 5) Changing/Adding/Removing categories.
>> It's own can of worms.

>And it's a big can, too. ;) But I think we need to look at this for a
couple reasons.

>1) Gondor, Rohan, and Numenor - Gondor had far more stories in it
than either Rohan or Numenor did, yet Gondor was a subcategory and
Rohan and Numenor were both full categories. That seems a little
strange to me. I would have voted for putting them all under Men as
subcategories.

I say if they're big enough (we need to decide those limits) they become
their own main categories, not under Men. This year, no main categories
were added as soon as Nomination Season started. They were set. I'm open
to next year allowing for new main categories provided they fit the upper
bound. Gondor being a good example. Under this idea, Gondor would have
been created as a new main category. Rohan and Numenor might not have made
it.

>2) Long stories and short stories - This gets problematic as I
mentioned before, but I noticed in my ballot counting that longer
stories received far fewer votes than shorter stories. The reason is
simple: people have time to read and comment on short stories. Long
stories don't always get read because of the simple fact that they're
long. The result of this is that long stories are at a disadvantage
when they're competing against short stories. I would definitely be
in favor of splitting up the novels and the vignettes provided we can
agree on a way to do it. It's finding that way that's the problem.

Someone else pointed out the advantage long stories have, but I'll put it in
my own words: they get remembered. I get and did get way more comments on
Oswiecim (a nearly 600-page story) than I did on any of my short stories.
Oswiecim is still remembered while First Consideration may not be. Long
stories are more likely to get long votes, I think. Short stories are more
likely to be read in a time crunch. They might get more votes, but longer
stories may get longer ones. It sort of evens out.

>3) Multiple categories apply - There were a few stories that could
have fit into upwards of seven different categories, and that makes
them hard to place. I like the idea of authors categorizing their own
stories. After all, authors know the work better than anyone else. I
also liked the idea that either Elana or Marta came up with. (Can't
remember who it was now.) But the idea involved having a system
where stories are first categorized by race, then time, then book,
then feel, etc. I like the separate categories of Horror, Drama,
etc., but a lot of those stories would have done well competing in
categories like Rohan or Elves. And I can think of a few stories in
Men that would have done well in Drama or Mystery.

Again, I don't want to limit the categories. Yes, those stories could have
done well in Men, but they weren't put there. Next year it will be the
author to choose. I have four stories in the Awards. These are the possible
categories (from the 2004 awards) that those stories might have worked in:

1) Immortal: LoTR/Cross-Cultural, Drama, Elves
2) Myth and Memory: Rohan, Men, Elves, Drama, Adventure, LOTR
3) Namesake: LOTR, Men, Drama, Rohan
4) The Lure of the Darkness: Horror, Elves, Silm (for time)

Which would I choose them to go in, given the choice?

1) Immortal: Drama
2) Myth and Memory: Rohan
3) Namesake: Rohan
4) The Lure of the Darkness: Horror

That happens to be the categories they were in, but it might have been
different for other authors.

>Maybe we should confine categories to races (elves and men and
hobbits) and time periods (or books) for the that cover several
races. Then within these categories, there can be subcategories for
horror, mystery, drama, Gondor, Rohan, etc.

Nope, see above.

>I also like the idea of having a separate AU category. Maybe we could
combine it with the Crossover? Or have crossover as a subcategory
within AU?

It's tricky. Most fanfic stories can fall into the AU category. Even
gap-fillers depending on how you look at them. Some are obvious: Gollum
dies before leaving Mirkwood, Boromir lives. But others aren't. Myth and
Memory because it is movie-verse. Namesake because it deals with original
characters. Immortal because we don't know that Legolas met with Merry and
Pippin before they died. The Lure of the Darkness because we don't know for
sure if a spider would act that way or hey, I went along with the notion
that Legolas' mother is dead.

>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

>I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this and
then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

That's the best I've come up with so far.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3076

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 23:49:21 Topic ID# 3059
See my recent post on it. I don't think we could or even would want to
force readers to only read the first chapter or two. But it might encourage
them to read if we said they didn't have to read more than the first chapter
or two.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Laura [mailto:swordofomens@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:37 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap



Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the vote
(provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some reasons why,
so I won't reiterate.


> >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but logistically
> problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this
and
> then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3077

Re: Catagorizing stories by length Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 07, 2004 - 23:55:38 Topic ID# 3072
I smiled when I read this. This same suggestion came up at ASC. I think in
the end, ASC decided not to categorize by length. But what made me smile is
that most of my stories (the Trek ones and some of the other non-LOTR ones)
are epics by those definitions. Oswiecim had 170,000 words by my count
(over 300,000 by ff.net's). I call it a novel. Pain of Memory had about
half that. It call it a novella. But this says it's still a very large
novel.

I think most of my short stories are longer than 7,500, too.

What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but how
do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and what kind
of word count do they have?

Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I should
try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised and said I'd
try for midnight.)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length



I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing against
each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being able to read
more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the advantage of being
able to have much more complicated and fully developed plot and
characterization. In general, I think it would be more fair to compare
works of similar lenght to each other, whether as main categories or
subcategories.

I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
Both sets of awards have been running for many years very successfully. The
word lengths of the established categories reflect the commonly used
definitions in the publishing world. Here it is quoted from the Nebula
site:

Awards will be made in the following categories:

1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a novella-length
work published individually, rather than as part of a collection or an
anthology, shall appear in the novel category.


These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
problem.

Elana







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3078

Re: Post Mortem recap - long stories and Wips Posted by Larian Elensar December 08, 2004 - 0:25:08 Topic ID# 3078
I read several WIPs, and several long stories, but the way I decided to
continue reading them was to read the first five chapters (if the summary
interested me first). Then, if the writer had me, I'd finish it. You'd never
be able to enforce a rule about commenting only on the first two chapters, but
maybe by suggesting it, it would do like you said, Ainae and encourage everyone
to read more of them. And if they read 2 or more chapters, they could probably
still write appropriate comments without slogging through 50 chapters too...



--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> See my recent post on it. I don't think we could or even would want to
> force readers to only read the first chapter or two. But it might encourage
> them to read if we said they didn't have to read more than the first chapter
> or two.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laura [mailto:swordofomens@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:37 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap
>
>
>
> Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
> I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the vote
> (provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some reasons why,
> so I won't reiterate.
>
>
> > >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
> >
> > I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but logistically
> > problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this
> and
> > then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
> a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 3079

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Larian Elensar December 08, 2004 - 0:32:19 Topic ID# 3079
I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For one thing
you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts. Defining the
lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a few sites
post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to count the
number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.

I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of the stories
linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I can make the
decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just don't think it's
a necessary extra administrative step.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but how
> do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and what kind
> of word count do they have?
>
> Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I should
> try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised and said I'd
> try for midnight.)
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length
>
>
>
> I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing against
> each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being able to read
> more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the advantage of being
> able to have much more complicated and fully developed plot and
> characterization. In general, I think it would be more fair to compare
> works of similar lenght to each other, whether as main categories or
> subcategories.
>
> I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
> Both sets of awards have been running for many years very successfully. The
> word lengths of the established categories reflect the commonly used
> definitions in the publishing world. Here it is quoted from the Nebula
> site:
>
> Awards will be made in the following categories:
>
> 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a novella-length
> work published individually, rather than as part of a collection or an
> anthology, shall appear in the novel category.
>
>
> These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
> fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
> problem.
>
> Elana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 3080

AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap concerning WIP Posted by elanor of aquitania December 08, 2004 - 4:07:46 Topic ID# 3080
> See my recent post on it. I don't think we could or even
> would want to
> force readers to only read the first chapter or two. But it
> might encourage
> them to read if we said they didn't have to read more than
> the first chapter
> or two.
>

Next question,
why then would you apply this rule only to WIPs
and not to novellas ?

It is the same problem: a long story has to be read
before voting with an informed background.

I see no difference between a long WIP
and a novel-length completed fic.

As I said before,
also a WIP could change so much from the first chapter
that one would change ones views on the WIP
if one reads on as intended by the author.

And I have read many a fic
that changed so much along the story line
that only the complete story or WIP should be voted at.

Best wishes from Elanor
who is being obstinate, she knows

Msg# 3081

AW: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I would support it Posted by elanor of aquitania December 08, 2004 - 4:47:12 Topic ID# 3079
Larian wrote:
> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length.
> For one thing
> you have to define the length, then you have to get word
> counts. Defining the
> lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know
> only a few sites
> post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd
> want to count the
> number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.

I would do it but I see that others would not like to do it.

For me it is more problematic to write
why a story needs parental guidance
than to copy the story into word and count it ;-)
Though to copy 50 chapters is tedious work, I agree.

> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this.
> Most of the stories
> linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there
> were. I can make the
> decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just
> don't think it's
> a necessary extra administrative step.

I agree that chapters might be an appropriate choice.

I do not agree,
that the distinction concerning length is not needed
because for me quite different writing skills
are needed for the various lengths.

In my very personal opinion novel length stories
are much harder to write convincingly and enjoyable
than short stories.

Thus, agreeing with Ainaechoiriel
that those are the most memorable stories,
for me well written novel-length stories
are the crowning achievement in fanfiction.
I sit in awe before such stories
which for me show the possibility
that the author could make the transition
to write publishable original stories.

> --- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas
> use them, but how
> > do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or
> short, and what kind
> > of word count do they have?

See below: those stories that for me are long stories
are novels according to Nebula rules.

> >
> > From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]

> > I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and
> Nebula Awards.
> > Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
> successfully. The
> > word lengths of the established categories reflect the commonly used
> > definitions in the publishing world. Here it is quoted
> from the Nebula
> > site:
> >
> > Awards will be made in the following categories:
> >
> > 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> > 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> > 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> > 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request,
> a novella-length
> > work published individually, rather than as part of a
> collection or an
> > anthology, shall appear in the novel category.

My example stories:

"Father and sons" by Dwim (for me a long story) has
64757 words in 16 chapters (about 4050 words per chapter)
so that already agrees with a Nebula-novel.
In my three columns, Arial 8 formatting
it has 42 Letter-format pages.

"Messages" a WIP with the length of a small book has
127081 words in 21 chapters (about 6050 words per chapter)
In my three columns, Arial 8 formatting
it has 88 Letter-format pages.

So if we go by chapters I would propose to say:
more than 10 chapters define a novel.

The problem is that there exist fics with just a page per chapter
while other stories have many pages per chapter.

Thus I personally would prefer that the nominator should
copy the story into word and count the words ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3082

PM: WIP or not to WIP Posted by sulriel December 08, 2004 - 6:33:13 Topic ID# 3082
My original suggestion was not to allow WIPs at all. With the
thought that if it was worth reading, it was worth readying *all* of
it. ... and it could be nominated when it was finished.

Because the nature of this fandom seems to support WIPs, and because
of the positive author support, I suggested, as a compromise, that a
policy be in place that readers only read/comment on the first two
chapters.

The difference between a WIP and a completed longfic is that in the
WIP, you don't have fully developed, completed plot arcs, subplots,
character growth, plot resolution. That sort of thing. I think if
you start a long story and aren't compelled to finish it by the
interest the author creates in your mind for the characters and
plots, it may not deserve the votes. As Elanor said, the author has
to hold the plot and characters together throughout.

A WIP would be looked at for plot and character development,
what 'questions' are asked by the setting, what mysteries are set up,
what heartstring are pulled, are you drawn in, do you want to see
this finished? Have you been made to care about the character? The
readers could read and comment on the first two chapters and bookmark
it to come back later, and have more time for reading and voting on
finished works.

Sulriel


----- Original Message -----
From: elanor of aquitania


> See my recent post on it. I don't think we could or even
> would want to> force readers to only read the first chapter or
two. But it > might encourage> them to read if we said they didn't
have to read more than > the first chapter> or two.
>

Next question,
why then would you apply this rule only to WIPs
and not to novellas ?

It is the same problem: a long story has to be read
before voting with an informed background.

I see no difference between a long WIP
and a novel-length completed fic.

As I said before,
also a WIP could change so much from the first chapter
that one would change ones views on the WIP
if one reads on as intended by the author.

And I have read many a fic
that changed so much along the story line
that only the complete story or WIP should be voted at.

Best wishes from Elanor
who is being obstinate, she knows

Msg# 3083

AW: [MEFAwards] PM: WIP or not to WIP Posted by elanor of aquitania December 08, 2004 - 8:41:03 Topic ID# 3082
> A WIP would be looked at for plot and character development,
> what 'questions' are asked by the setting, what mysteries are set up,
> what heartstring are pulled, are you drawn in, do you want to see
> this finished? Have you been made to care about the character? The
> readers could read and comment on the first two chapters and bookmark
> it to come back later, and have more time for reading and voting on
> finished works.
>
> Sulriel

Hi Sulriel,
I see what you mean but I still disagree ;-)

For me WIPs are something like a many-volume-epic.
I often buy the first of a series of books
just enjoying it for itself and then
eagerly waiting for the next one.

Would you say one could not vote
on FoTR because you know not
the content of TTT and RotK ?

These all are published books !
Written in such a style that the reader is compelled
to buy the next volume.

I think, no one would nominate really unfinished WIPs
only such that have grown already so much as to become
at least comparable to the first volume of a series.

So I think, let's nominate WIPs and vote on them
as usual for completed fics.

Only difference here is that one has to allow
for unclosed story arcs because the WIP
is already in the second or third volume ;-)

And as with other long fics
it is the decision of the reader
if she wants to vote or not to vote on a long fic.
Surely you also cannot police the readers to read
the long complete fic before voting.
It is only an expectation placed in the voters
that they have read the whole fic.

I do not think that you should apply
the problem of limited reading time only to WIPs.

Moreover, if the fic is in a very unfinished state
it will get no comments.

I think the WIP is an important feature
of the internet writing culture
and we should value it as such !

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3084

Re: PM: Author comments Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 9:28:05 Topic ID# 3073
I could certainly add some sample votes (either made up or some of myvotes
from the ASCs) to the How to Vote texts. It'd take up a lot of space on the
ballot.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: bljean@aol.com [mailto:bljean@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:25 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: PM: Author comments


Encourage such votes, yes, and perhaps I will even write one, though it goes
against the grain. I tried to write author comments this time around and my
brain just froze at trying to generalise. Perhaps it's because I wrote such
extensive comments in the stories, and didn't want to appear to be
vote-stacking (or whatever the term might be) by repeating myself.

But after reading a great many Author Votes, now that it's all over, I have
an idea of what to do. Hurrah.

Might I make a suggestion about such? (This might even have been done this
year, I don't know, I've been pretty out of the loop due to various issues.
Barely got the reading and voting done in one category. Hoping for better
next
year.)

How about having sample "votes" for a make-believe story and make-believe
author vote?

Something like this: (disclaimer: if this is a real author, or if these are
real titles, well, I've never heard of them!)

Sample vote:

Better and Better by NotJRRT

Absolutely fantastic story! From the first sentence, the author pulls you
into an amazing journey through the length and breadth of Middle-earth. The
characterisations were spot-on. Hits you right in the gut with a surprise
ending that I don't want to give away, if you haven't read it yet. And all
this in just the length of a drabble!

Sample Author Vote:

NotJrRT (Better and Better, Like a Hot Knife through Butterbur, Death!
Death!
Death!)
This author is new to me; I've never read anything quite like the drabbles
in this category. An amazing sweep of imagination in a marvellous economy of
carefully-chosen words. I'm looking forward to future endeavors!

Thanks,
Lin

In a message dated 12/7/2004 3:45:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
On the other hand, there were not a lot of author votes as a general rule.
That's not a very democratic way to hand out author awards. So in that
light, something does need to change. Maybe we just need to encourage author
votes. Maybe even make it a requirement that on the submitted ballots,
people include at least one author vote, even if they don't want to comment
on the rest. I hesitate to do that and I can't think of a good way to
enforce it, but maybe someone else can make something of it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3085

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 9:34:52 Topic ID# 3079
I agree with Larian here. I like long stories. I like short stories. I
can make my own decisions once I see them on whether I want to read them.

That said, I did go down through the stories that caught my interest by
their summaries. I looked them up and then marked down how many chapters
there were. But that was only when I was crunched for time. I still took
time to read some very long ones even then.

But, bottom-line, we want to make this easier, not harder. We can't make it
harder on the nominator to look up the word count. Nor can we expect staff
to do this (or I'll find out that a lot of volunteers are suddenly
sufficiently reluctant to volunteer).

One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could we
ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking not
word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story. For
example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the Hugos say.
(Ff.net says it's 54000 words).


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:32 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed


I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For one thing
you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts. Defining
the lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a few
sites post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to
count the number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.

I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of the
stories linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I
can make the decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just
don't think it's a necessary extra administrative step.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but
> how do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and
> what kind of word count do they have?
>
> Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I
> should try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised
> and said I'd try for midnight.)
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length
>
>
>
> I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing
> against each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being
> able to read more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the
> advantage of being able to have much more complicated and fully
> developed plot and characterization. In general, I think it would be
> more fair to compare works of similar lenght to each other, whether as
> main categories or subcategories.
>
> I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
> Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
> successfully. The word lengths of the established categories reflect
> the commonly used definitions in the publishing world. Here it is
> quoted from the Nebula
> site:
>
> Awards will be made in the following categories:
>
> 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a
> novella-length work published individually, rather than as part of a
> collection or an anthology, shall appear in the novel category.
>
>
> These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
> fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
> problem.
>
> Elana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
archive@ofelvesandmen.com


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3086

Re: Post Mortem recap concerning WIP Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 9:49:55 Topic ID# 3080
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 4:08 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap concerning WIP


> See my recent post on it. I don't think we could or even would want
> to force readers to only read the first chapter or two. But it might
> encourage them to read if we said they didn't have to read more than
> the first chapter or two.
>

>Next question,
why then would you apply this rule only to WIPs and not to novellas ?

Because a lot of readers are already biased against WIPs. I know I am.
Though when I started reading LOTR fanfic, I got sucked into them.
Fortunately now I have such a deluge of interesting finished fics that I no
longer have to start reading a WIP. I prefer a finished story. If I saw a
completed 40-chapter story and a WIP at 10 chapters, I'd still pick reading
the 40-chapter completed story.

I have read, and am still reading, some WIPs, and even enjoyed them, but I'd
much rather rad a story that isn't going to leave me hanging.

That's why it's different.

>It is the same problem: a long story has to be read before voting with an
informed background.

A long completed story is complete. A long WIP is not.

>I see no difference between a long WIP
and a novel-length completed fic.

One has an ending, the other doesn't. The WIP may not even have a middle
yet.

>As I said before,
also a WIP could change so much from the first chapter that one would change
ones views on the WIP if one reads on as intended by the author.

That's true, but I'd argue that if a WIP changed that much from the first
chapter to the 10th, it's usually for the worse rather than the better.

>And I have read many a fic
that changed so much along the story line that only the complete story or
WIP should be voted at.

Commenting on the first couple of chapters could look like this:

While I haven't read all that is available here, the author presents and
interesting premise and believable characters. She caught me with the very
first page. What a hook! Even just two chapters in, I'm tied to these
characters. I want to know what will happen next. I'll definitely be coming
back to read this story. I hope the author finishes soon.

I don't think an in depth critique can be done on a WIP because an ending is
part of the story. If there's no ending, it's going to, at best, get a B
from me. But that is why WIPs have their own subcategories. So they don't
have to compete with completed stories. As far as WIPs go, I say "Let the
best B win." But when completed, they might get an A.

(Those are grades from school here in the US. A is best. F is failing. I
taught in the Czech Republic where 1 was best and 5 was failing, so I
realize that some may not be familiar with this grading system.)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3087

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Larian Elensar December 08, 2004 - 10:01:52 Topic ID# 3079
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> But, bottom-line, we want to make this easier, not harder. We can't make it
> harder on the nominator to look up the word count.

Exactly.

>
> One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could we
> ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking not
> word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story. For
> example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the Hugos say.
> (Ff.net says it's 54000 words).

I think if you're going to have authors to provide anything, word count would
be best. (If they have it) That way, then we apply the type based on the
definition we're using. (Like you said Ainae, if we define novella one way, and
the author another, there's no reason for us to waste time defining the
lengths, as the authors will have their own ideas anyway).


>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:32 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
> needed
>
>
> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For one thing
> you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts. Defining
> the lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a few
> sites post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to
> count the number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.
>
> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of the
> stories linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I
> can make the decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just
> don't think it's a necessary extra administrative step.
>
>
> --- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but
> > how do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and
> > what kind of word count do they have?
> >
> > Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I
> > should try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised
> > and said I'd try for midnight.)
> >
> > --Ainaechoiriel
> > MEFA Admin and Founder
> >
> > "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> > said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
> >
> > http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> > Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length
> >
> >
> >
> > I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing
> > against each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being
> > able to read more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the
> > advantage of being able to have much more complicated and fully
> > developed plot and characterization. In general, I think it would be
> > more fair to compare works of similar lenght to each other, whether as
> > main categories or subcategories.
> >
> > I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
> > Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
> > successfully. The word lengths of the established categories reflect
> > the commonly used definitions in the publishing world. Here it is
> > quoted from the Nebula
> > site:
> >
> > Awards will be made in the following categories:
> >
> > 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> > 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> > 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> > 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a
> > novella-length work published individually, rather than as part of a
> > collection or an anthology, shall appear in the novel category.
> >
> >
> > These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
> > fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
> > problem.
> >
> > Elana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~-->
> > $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Larian
> larian_elensar@yahoo.com
> Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
> Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
> archive@ofelvesandmen.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 3088

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I would support it Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 10:41:40 Topic ID# 3079
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 4:49 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I would support it


>I agree that chapters might be an appropriate choice.

>I do not agree,
that the distinction concerning length is not needed because for me quite
different writing skills are needed for the various lengths.

>In my very personal opinion novel length stories are much harder to write
convincingly and enjoyable than short stories.

:-) I disagree. I'm a writer of both and they each have their own
advantages and disadvantages.

Why is a short story easier than a novel? Because it's shorter. Filling 10
pages is a lot easier than filling 200.

Why is a novel easier than a short story? Because it's longer and reflects
life better. Not all our dramas in life can be solved in 10 pages. Finding
a novel-length story may actually be easier than finding a short one.

Why is it harder to write a novel? Because it takes longer. It could take
a year or more to write a novel. And filling it can be hard. Sure the
exciting scenes are there but they have to be linked together.

Why is it harder to write a short story? It's harder to find a story that is
so short. A novel can take place in a week, month, year... A short story
happens in a day, a few hours. It has to be a whole story still, but one in
a short period of time.

>Thus, agreeing with Ainaechoiriel
that those are the most memorable stories, for me well written novel-length
stories are the crowning achievement in fanfiction.
I sit in awe before such stories
which for me show the possibility
that the author could make the transition to write publishable original
stories.

Why judge long stories and short stories together then? Because they are
both stories with generally the same format. They have beginnings, middles,
and ends. Charactors, scenes, plots. In the reading, they mainly vary only
in size.

Why judge drabbles differently? Because they don't necessarily have the
same format as long and short stories. They are a moment, a snap shot.
They don't need an end or even a middle. Not enough so much a plot as just
a thought.

Vignettes are closer to long and short stories, but they too are different.
One scene. The plot is generally a light-weight one. Small. Not like a
villain trying to take over the world. Maybe (to use one of my examples)
just one character telling another about a mutual friend's death. There is
a beginning and and end, and a middle--though a very short one.

Whoa, I just had a thought. Short stories don't have chapters! In my mind,
that is one thing that separates a short story from a novella, regardless of
number of words. No chapters.

Anyway, those are my thoughts

>The problem is that there exist fics with just a page per chapter while
other stories have many pages per chapter.

Yep,t hat is a big problem. For me, my chapters used to average about 40
pages (12pt. Times New Roman, double-spaced). Sometimes they were as small
as 20. I think in Pain of Memory they were shorter, and that'swhy I didn't
call them Chapters, but Parts. But yes, I've seen some very short chapters
out there. Chapters will tell me their own lengths. And sometimes they are
and should be small. But not generally should they be only a page.

>Thus I personally would prefer that the nominator should copy the story
into word and count the words ;-)

But it's too much work. I think that IF we decide to do this, we have the
author do it.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3089

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 10:48:35 Topic ID# 3079
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:02 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed


> One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could
> we ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking
> not word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story.
> For example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the
Hugos say.
> (Ff.net says it's 54000 words).

>I think if you're going to have authors to provide anything, word count
would be best. (If they have it) That way, then we apply the type based on
the definition we're using. (Like you said Ainae, if we define novella one
way, and the author another, there's no reason for us to waste time defining
the lengths, as the authors will have their own ideas anyway).

That's the thing. I don't generally know the word count for my stories. I
know for Oswiecim because I had originally thought to try to submit it for
publication. But it was about 100,000 words more than they were willing to
chance on an unpublished author. Any of my others, and I have to look up
what it says on ff.net. But then ff.net says Oswiecim is 349,000 words,
when I only counted 170,000. And since my stories are filed in separate
chapters, it's not an easy thing to do a word count on the whole story. I'd
have to either do a word count on the individual chapters and then add them
together or copy and paste them all together and do a word count.

If I was to be the author that had to decide which category to put my story
in and note it's length, I'd rather say Oswiecim should be put in Drama or
General and it's a novel. For Pain of Memory, I'd say Drama or General and
it's a novella.

Word count would call them both novels (or gigantic epic monster-novel!, in
regard to Oswiecim).

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3090

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Marta December 08, 2004 - 12:57:57 Topic ID# 3059
Hi Ainae,

(Quotes are from Ainae except where indicated.)

> >!) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?
>

I like them. And for those of us who are more interested in the
feedback than whether we win an award, any feedback is an added bonus.
(I consider myself in the latter category; I was tickled pink at how
many people read and enjoyed my stuff, people who I hadn't known were
reading prior to these awards). I do think they need to change,
though.

Your suggestions of allowing people to submit the same comment for the
same author in different categories was a good one. I also think the
suggestion of an overall authors category, with some subcategories,
was also a good one. I can understand your reason for not wanting to
award just three awards for all the authors. And I can understand you
not seeing how Author/X is not different from X/Author (where X is any
category such as Elves, The Hobbit, Mystery, etc.) I think where the
confusion was coming in was, you were thinking there would be one
subcategory of Authors for every other category in the awards. I don't
think this necessarily has to be the case. I'm not sure which
categories do and don't need subcategories and I'm sure we would need
to flesh this out further if we go this route. But, for example,
Silmarillion maybe wouldn't need an authors subcategory - the authors
could compete under Elves and Men.

You could also arguably say that each author can only compete in one
subcategory of Authors. So if I have stories nominated in Drama, The
Hobbit, Men, Hobbits, and Romance, I would choose one. But this runs
into the problem of different categories requiring different skills.

However, I don't think you like the one Authors category idea. That's
fine. I'm just trying to clarify what I thought was a
misunderstanding.

> > 2) Honorable Mention
> > The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What
qualifies?
> > So far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X
> > points below 3rd place.
> >
> > So what would X be? 5, 10, 15? Any other options, or should I
put
> > those three numbers in a poll?
>

Definitely less than five. My original idea was within 10% of the
first place vote count (rounded to the nearest vote). So if, say,
first prize was 36 votes honourable mentions go to everyone within
four votes of the third prize award (36 * 0.1 = 3.6 ≈ 4). But I am a
math major. I just finished my last semester and am two incompletes
away from my BS in applied math. Maybe the admins don't want something
that hard to compute (though the math seems second nature to me, it
may not to whoever is counting the votes).

The exact number, though, is less important to me than that honourable
mentions are distributed. I will go with whatever Ainae and/or the
rest of the group decides.

> > 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.
> > one-off
> > stories)
> > I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?
> > Word-count may
> > not be available at every archive.
>

It's not. I think the Mithrils ran into a similar problem. Since the
set-up is different, I think they were able to solve this issue by
having screeners do the word-count (though I could be mistaken); that
of course wouldn't work for me.

I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for
what we consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to
indicate where they want their story to run, just like they'll choose
their category.

<snip>
> > Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel?
If
> > so, how do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene
> > generally. But what about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34
> > pages. What's a novella compared to a novel? Where do we draw
the
> > line?
>

Here's my best stabs at word counts.

* Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
consisting of multiple scenes)
* Novella: 25,000 - 50,000 words
* Novel: 50,000+ words

Again, I think it should be the author's call, and these categories
should be flexible. If I have a piece that's 20,000 words but I think
it reads more like a novella than a short story, I should be able to
put it there.

> > 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes The decision is
yes,
> > but to what do we limit it? Favorite line? No more than X
> > characters?
>

No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a lot
of work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.

Hmm. Is it possible (or even a good idea?) to just require that quotes
be "integrated" into the review? To me there's a world of difference
in saying: "I particularly liked your use of detail, such as when you
said '[X]'. And I could feel the cloth of Faramir's tunic when you
wrote'[Y]'" and in saying: "Here are some of my favourite passages:
[X] [Y] [Z] ... " So if a review just has a long list of quotes the
admins could ask the voter to rephrase and resubmit?

Would it maybe be possible to let the voter submit an "official" vote
with few quotes, but to post to the Yahoo group some of their
favourite quotes? These could be included on the "comments" page but
wouldn't count for voting purposes.

> >I think, after my experiences as the offender, the quote should not
change
> the points allotted to the story.
> But this is difficult to administrate and to police.
>
> It's hard to count the characters of the whole comment and then
subtract out
> the characters of the quotes. We need to make it as easy as possible
for
> vote counters.

I agree - but will it be considerably harder than having the vote
counters police for quotes over a certain amount? I think they'd still
have to do character counts on all the quotes to check and see if they
should be counted.

Assuming we're still doing this by hand next year... aren't the voters
copying into Word or some word processor to count? Maybe if we
required that all quotes be set off by some special character? ' is no
good, as that's also used for contractions. And some emails had " as
curly-quotes and some as straight-quotes. Maybe put * at the beginning
and end? Then the vote counter could do a search for * and delete the
quote, then do the word count?

<snip>
[Elanor]
> >But I am in favour of quoting,
> there might be persons who set the limit at 100 characters.
>

I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's writing
is really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer
Hemingway, to use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story
fits his or her personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer
liked it.

*However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I
particularly liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer
should indicate why he or she likes a particular quote and what it did
for the overall story. And the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.

> Formatting was really strange at times. You can't have a hard
return in an
> Excel spreadsheet. So my comments didn't. I copied them into the
ballot and
> then poof, the lines broke up. Go figure.
>

Ainae, I noticed that on the web sites some comments break off mid-
sentence. I wasn't even going to mention it because it's really not
important, if I really wanted to see I just searched for the comment
in the Yahoo group. But could this be related to the '/n' that I think
you said you were using to preserve hard returns? And would it make
things simpler for you next year if we said 'no line breaks in
comments'? (It might also encourage people to limit how much they
quote.)

> > 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered Good idea, but
> > logistically problematic. We don't archive stories, so how would
we
> > police that? The only thing I can think of is that we make a
> > suggestion to voters that they don't have to read more than the
first
> > two chapters or some such.
>

I don't think you can require people only read the first few chapters
(or disallow them from reading the whole thing). Even if you archived
the stories, people could find the whole things elsewhere. And how
would you handle people who had been reading the WIPs as they were
posted? I think the question shouldn't be whether to permit people to
read the whole WIP or not, but whether to allow them to read less than
that. If I only had time to read the first four chapters of "Lie Down
in Darkness" can I review just those four chapters (perhaps noting
that my review only addressed the first four chapters)?

For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long
finished works - can we allow people to review long works that they
have only found the time to read part of, but enough to get a feel for
the material?

<snip>
[Elanor]
> > I have the feeling the whole WIP should be taken into
consideration for
> voting.
> But this is my personal feeling.
>
> >Why ?
> "Captain, my Captain" by Isabeau
> in the first chapters
> for me is gorgeous but I cannot follow
> the heroine into the second part.
>
> >So if I had read only the first chapters I would have written a 10
points
> comment.
> But for my taste the story develops
> into a direction I cannot follow,
> so the 10 points comment is out.
>

I see our point. Stories can start off good but taper off or change
in such a way that the reader no longer likes them as much. But with
WIPs, there's no guarantee that the change won't take place after what
the author has currently written.

Marta

Msg# 3091

Comments on the web site Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 13:47:56 Topic ID# 3091
Just replying to a piece of what Marta sasid for right now:

If you know of a comment that is cut off mid-sentence or mid-anything else
on the web site, do let me know. Excel and Word weren't playing nicely
together it seems. I know they wouldn't when I tried using mail merge to
bring all the comments into one cell. They would get cut off mid-comment.
So I moved them by hand. Then when I merged, it looked like it had all come
out okay. Of course, I didn't take the time to read every comment again.

So, if you spot one, let me know about it. Let me know the story or author
and who the commenter is so I can find it in the spreadsheet.

I'm enough of a perfectionist to want every comment to be up there in full.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3092

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Marta December 08, 2004 - 14:24:10 Topic ID# 3079
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@y...>
wrote:
> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For
one thing
> you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts.
Defining the
> lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a
few sites
> post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to
count the
> number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.
>
> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of
the stories
> linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I
can make the
> decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just don't
think it's
> a necessary extra administrative step.
>

I respectfully disagree. I understand the administrative hassles, and
maybe since I wasn't able to help as much as I would have liked, this
will sound a bit rich coming from me. But there really is a different
from a vignette and a novel. I'm not talking about from a reader's
perspective, but for the fairness of the awards... well, there's a
difference in the kind of votes a vignette and a novel attract. Novels
have the time to build up a readership. So more people probably will
have read them before they come to the awards. And there's more to
comment on, so it's easier to write more. Vignettes, on the other
hand, are shorter, so it's easier for people to read them just for the
awards.

I don't think it should fall to categorizers to do word counts,
though. Like I suggested in my earlier post, we should come up with
*suggested* word counts and let the authors decide.

By the way, I only feel strongly that novels and vignettes should be
their own sub-category. If it makes things easier I think the others
can run together (no need to draw the difference between one-shot and
novella).

Marta

Msg# 3093

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 15:38:11 Topic ID# 3079
I don't think anyone was suggesting novels and vignettes run together. More
short stories and long storeis. Vignettes are a speciallized format, like
drabble. One scene. That's it. A scene isn't always a story (beginning
middle and end). I think of vignettes as a subcategory.

For what it's worth though, I think if I've been following a story for a
long time, it's actually harder for me to write a lot about it. Blame it on
my memory problems, but the story may become so familiar to me that I
actually forget what is special. A strange example to illustrate: When I
first moved to the Czech Republic, eveyrthing was so different and new. I
wrote (in very small handwriting) 12-page letters, front and back. Six
months later, everything is still as different from the US as it was on Day
1, but it's become familiar to me. I struggle to write 2-page letters.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 2:23 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@y...>
wrote:
> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For
one thing
> you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts.
Defining the
> lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a
few sites
> post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to
count the
> number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.
>
> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of
the stories
> linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I
can make the
> decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just don't
think it's
> a necessary extra administrative step.
>

I respectfully disagree. I understand the administrative hassles, and maybe
since I wasn't able to help as much as I would have liked, this will sound a
bit rich coming from me. But there really is a different from a vignette and
a novel. I'm not talking about from a reader's perspective, but for the
fairness of the awards... well, there's a difference in the kind of votes a
vignette and a novel attract. Novels have the time to build up a readership.
So more people probably will have read them before they come to the awards.
And there's more to comment on, so it's easier to write more. Vignettes, on
the other hand, are shorter, so it's easier for people to read them just for
the awards.

I don't think it should fall to categorizers to do word counts, though. Like
I suggested in my earlier post, we should come up with
*suggested* word counts and let the authors decide.

By the way, I only feel strongly that novels and vignettes should be their
own sub-category. If it makes things easier I think the others can run
together (no need to draw the difference between one-shot and novella).

Marta






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3094

Re: Categorizing stories by length: not needed Posted by Elena Tiriel December 08, 2004 - 15:44:18 Topic ID# 3094
For myself, all I need to know before reading a story is its approximate
length -- short vs huge ;-) ... I'd like to see that as just another piece
of information about the story, like its summary and the location. For that
purpose, really all I care about is the number of chapters, which the author
could supply easily.

If you decide to categorize by length, then more accurate word counts would
be needed -- but, if you're trying to keep it simple, just tell us readers
how many chapters there are and let us decide what to do with that
information.

And, regarding the voting season: please don't divide it up by categories.
Let me decide when to send which ballot (any time during the entire season),
and let me send multiple ballots for the same category (but different
**stories** on each) if that's what my time schedule -- and brain overload
-- require. (E.g. first half of a certain category early in the season
(because I read them during the reading season), then other categories, then
the second half of the same category later in the season, when I finish
reading those stories.)

Ainae, I need to drop out of the group now for RL reasons, but I want you to
know how much I've enjoyed the MEFAs. You've done a great job, and I thank
you and all the other volunteers, too!

- Barbara

>From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
>
>One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could we
>ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking not
>word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story. For
>example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the Hugos
>say.
>(Ff.net says it's 54000 words).
>
>--Ainaechoiriel
>MEFA Admin and Founder

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Msg# 3095

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Marta December 08, 2004 - 15:57:57 Topic ID# 3079
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> I don't think anyone was suggesting novels and vignettes run
together. More
> short stories and long storeis. Vignettes are a speciallized
format, like
> drabble. One scene. That's it. A scene isn't always a story
(beginning
> middle and end). I think of vignettes as a subcategory.
>

I can see what you're getting back, but I still think that novels are
often different. There's a beginning, middle, and end, yes. But if
they're being published as a serial, often each chapter will have that
structure, and there will be several rises and falls over the course
of the story. On top of the overall story arc. The difference in
structure is subtle, but IMHO it's there. More to the point, novels
published as serials have the time to acquire a readership.

> For what it's worth though, I think if I've been following a story
for a
> long time, it's actually harder for me to write a lot about it.
Blame it on
> my memory problems, but the story may become so familiar to me that
I
> actually forget what is special. A strange example to illustrate:
When I
> first moved to the Czech Republic, eveyrthing was so different and
new. I
> wrote (in very small handwriting) 12-page letters, front and back.
Six
> months later, everything is still as different from the US as it was
on Day
> 1, but it's become familiar to me. I struggle to write 2-page
letters.
>

That's true. But I remember reading several reviews where people did
mini-reviews of each chapter, or the reviewer seemed to implicitly
review as s/he went along - s/he would pose a question, "I wonder how
this will work out", then answer the question a few lines later; this
implies to me that s/he had not read the whole work when s/he wrote
the review. I could be wrong, of course, and I'm not criticizing this
style - just pointing out that some people did review as they went
along, rather than just comment on the story as a whole.

(FWIW, I experienced a similar thing when I was studying abroad in
Staffordshire, England. At first my emails were long and involved
because I was so struck by the cultural differences. My emails got
briefer as the semester went on, because the English lifestyle was
becoming the norm.)

Marta

Msg# 3096

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 08, 2004 - 16:10:19 Topic ID# 3079
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:


>I can see what you're getting back, but I still think that novels are often
different. There's a beginning, middle, and end, yes. But if they're being
published as a serial, often each chapter will have that structure, and
there will be several rises and falls over the course of the story. On top
of the overall story arc. The difference in structure is subtle, but IMHO
it's there. More to the point, novels published as serials have the time to
acquire a readership.

Someone else talked about WIPs comparing them to serials and I wanted to
comment on that and forgot. Serials usually have parts that are somewhat of
a story on their own. Like my three Trek stories: Hope, Forgiveness, and
Peace. All part of a trilogy. All stories that have beginnings, middles, and
ends of their own, but definitely tied together.

Wips are just unfinished.

As for novels and short stories, I think they cancel each other out. A
novel may gain longer comments because there's more to write about, but
short stories will likely have more comments because they are easier and
more likely to be read.

> That's true. But I remember reading several reviews where people did
mini-reviews of each chapter, or the reviewer seemed to implicitly review as
s/he went along - s/he would pose a question, "I wonder how this will work
out", then answer the question a few lines later; this implies to me that
s/he had not read the whole work when s/he wrote the review. I could be
wrong, of course, and I'm not criticizing this style - just pointing out
that some people did review as they went along, rather than just comment on
the story as a whole.

Personally, I hate it and thank you for bringing that up. That's going to
be a dictatorial decision for the 2005 MEFAs. Save that stuff for ff.net.
Stories here should be commented as real reviews. Done at the end of the
story.

And that brings me back to the read two chapter ting on Wips. Someone asked
if it would be allowed to comment on just the first two chapters of a long
completed story. I say no. For the reasons I've already given about WIPs.
Wips are not full stories. They have a disadvantage at that. They are a B
at the highest. When you comment on a WIP, by definition you are commenting
not only on the work already done but the potential for how it will turn
out. A completed story is an A at the highest. You don't comment on the
potential. It's already there.

If this becomes too contentious, maybe we should consider not allowing WIPs.
Should I put it to a poll?

>(FWIW, I experienced a similar thing when I was studying abroad in
Staffordshire, England. At first my emails were long and involved because I
was so struck by the cultural differences. My emails got briefer as the
semester went on, because the English lifestyle was becoming the norm.)

Exactly! Interesting how that happens, isn't it?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3097

Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's needed Posted by Naresha December 09, 2004 - 7:39:11 Topic ID# 3079
I must agree with Larian here. We tried doing
word length in the Masque awards and it was a
pain in the backside!!! we had a slightly
different set up - but even just having to go
through say just 10 stories (and there were a
LOT more than that!)and run a word count on them
all (we had them saved as word docs) but having
to do it on them was just time consuming and
annoying!

Resha.

--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com>
wrote:

---------------------------------
I really don't think we need to categorize
stories by length. For one thing
you have to define the length, then you have to
get word counts. Defining the
lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far
as I know only a few sites
post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not
sure I'd want to count the
number of words in some of the stories, so I'd
not nominate them.

I think you have to trust the readers' judgment
on this. Most of the stories
linked to a front page that showed how many
chapters there were. I can make the
decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or
not. I just don't think it's
a necessary extra administrative step.



=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3098

PM: voter should add number of characters (without spaces) of the q Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 10, 2004 - 21:50:55 Topic ID# 3098
I'll have to say No to this one. Why? Because we can't rely on voters to
give us the number of characters and still maintain integrity. Think about
it. One dishonest voter could cause fraud.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3099

PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 10, 2004 - 21:58:04 Topic ID# 3099
Is this just so it's easier to see where a comment begins and ends?

I can see why that would be good. But it would also add 2 characters to
every vote. Do we just subtract two from the character count? Or do we up
the cut-off points for each point by 2 characters? Of course, if we did
that, the numbers wouldn't be very round. 1102 and up?

It would be good though to have a good way to show where a comment begins
and ends. Because we did see some that started right after the title--on
the same line. Or that still had the summary in the ballot, which made it
hard to tell where the comment started.

Thoughts on this one, folks?


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3100

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 10, 2004 - 22:29:37 Topic ID# 3059
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap



>Hi Ainae,

Hi.

>(Quotes are from Ainae except where indicated.)

Now they're from Marta. ;-)
Re: Author comments

>I like them. And for those of us who are more interested in the feedback
than whether we win an award, any feedback is an added bonus.
(I consider myself in the latter category; I was tickled pink at how many
people read and enjoyed my stuff, people who I hadn't known were reading
prior to these awards). I do think they need to change, though.

I definitely like them myself. Receiving them. I don't mind giving them. I
just recognize they are harder to write.

>Your suggestions of allowing people to submit the same comment for the same
author in different categories was a good one. I also think the suggestion
of an overall authors category, with some subcategories, was also a good
one. I can understand your reason for not wanting to award just three awards
for all the authors. And I can understand you not seeing how Author/X is not
different from X/Author (where X is any category such as Elves, The Hobbit,
Mystery, etc.) I think where the confusion was coming in was, you were
thinking there would be one subcategory of Authors for every other category
in the awards. I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. I'm not
sure which categories do and don't need subcategories and I'm sure we would
need to flesh this out further if we go this route. But, for example,
Silmarillion maybe wouldn't need an authors subcategory - the authors could
compete under Elves and Men.

No, if the story is in Silm, the author is in Silm. If the author chooses
to have her story be in Elves, she's nominated under Elves. You know there
are a lot of Men in the Silm. Look at Turin, Tuor, Hurin, et al. And a mix
thereof. Tuor and Idril. Earendil. There are some authors out there who
only write under Silm. They consider themselves Silm fanficers. They should
be able to elligible to receive the Best Silmarillion Author award.

>You could also arguably say that each author can only compete in one
subcategory of Authors. So if I have stories nominated in Drama, The Hobbit,
Men, Hobbits, and Romance, I would choose one. But this runs into the
problem of different categories requiring different skills.

No. Again, I've said that I don't like limiting these. There is another
awards program that only lets you nominated one story per category. I
really don't like that. There will be no limit. If you write a story in
Hobbits and you write a story in Silm, you are up for both Best Hobbits
Author and Best Silmarillion Author.

>However, I don't think you like the one Authors category idea. That's fine.
I'm just trying to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding.

My brain is telling me it would be more complicated to figure out who is
elligible for what if we go Authors/Elves, Authors/Elves/Drabble,
Authors/Men....

At least administratively. Getting the lists together would take a lot more
time. It's not very hard when it's Elves/Authors, Elves/Authors/Poetry,
etc. Because the stories are grouped by category and then subcategory in
the spreadsheets, it's easy to see which authors are elligible where.

And for me, as a voter, I'm a lot more likely to write a somewhat decent
Author comment if it's right there with the story. Ideally, I read the
story, comment on the story, comment on the author. (Though if the author
has several stories in the same category, I'll read all the stories I want
to by that person before I write the author comment.)

> > 2) Honorable Mention

>Definitely less than five. My original idea was within 10% of the first
place vote count (rounded to the nearest vote). So if, say, first prize was
36 votes honourable mentions go to everyone within four votes of the third
prize award (36 * 0.1 = 3.6 ≈ 4). But I am a math major. I just
finished my last semester and am two incompletes away from my BS in applied
math. Maybe the admins don't want something that hard to compute (though the
math seems second nature to me, it may not to whoever is counting the
votes).

;-) I hate math. With a passion! I haven't had to take a math class since
my freshman year of college and that was over 14 years ago. I love my
calculators now. No percentages please.

>The exact number, though, is less important to me than that honourable
mentions are distributed. I will go with whatever Ainae and/or the rest of
the group decides.

Is anyone opposed to 5? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

> > 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.

>It's not. I think the Mithrils ran into a similar problem. Since the set-up
is different, I think they were able to solve this issue by having screeners
do the word-count (though I could be mistaken); that of course wouldn't work
for me.

>I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for what we
consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to indicate where
they want their story to run, just like they'll choose their category.

That's an idea. There are two issues with this, though. I'm for one and
against the other. Though it may be hard for me to write out why.

For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
reading.

Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the exeption of
those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.

>Here's my best stabs at word counts.

>* Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
consisting of multiple scenes)

This sounds better to me. Have you ever entered a writing contest? They
often say a limit of 25,000 words for short stories.

>* Novella: 25,000 - 50,000 words
* Novel: 50,000+ words

I might go a little higher than that. 70,000 is the average Pocket Books was
doing. That's why I couldn't submit Oswiecim to them. I was 100,000 words
over. And cutting that much would have gutted it.

>Again, I think it should be the author's call, and these categories should
be flexible. If I have a piece that's 20,000 words but I think it reads more
like a novella than a short story, I should be able to put it there.

Absolutely.

>No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a lot of
work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.

How about "no more than two sentences"?

>Hmm. Is it possible (or even a good idea?) to just require that quotes be
"integrated" into the review? To me there's a world of difference in saying:
"I particularly liked your use of detail, such as when you said '[X]'. And I
could feel the cloth of Faramir's tunic when you wrote'[Y]'" and in saying:
"Here are some of my favourite passages:
[X] [Y] [Z] ... " So if a review just has a long list of quotes the admins
could ask the voter to rephrase and resubmit?

I like that idea. Others' thoughts?

>Would it maybe be possible to let the voter submit an "official" vote with
few quotes, but to post to the Yahoo group some of their favourite quotes?
These could be included on the "comments" page but wouldn't count for voting
purposes.

No. Too much work for me. Or the electronic method if we get one. A
computer would count a vote as a vote. Not differintiate. (I can't spell
that this evening.)

Re: vote-counters doing the math

>I agree - but will it be considerably harder than having the vote counters
police for quotes over a certain amount? I think they'd still have to do
character counts on all the quotes to check and see if they should be
counted.

I agree. I think character count as a limit is out.

>Assuming we're still doing this by hand next year... aren't the voters
copying into Word or some word processor to count? Maybe if we required that
all quotes be set off by some special character? ' is no good, as that's
also used for contractions. And some emails had " as curly-quotes and some
as straight-quotes. Maybe put * at the beginning and end? Then the vote
counter could do a search for * and delete the quote, then do the word
count?

Well, because when I count, I also copy that quote into a spreadsheet so I
can make the comments pages. If I have to fix the line breaks, I count
them, fix them in Word, and then copy them back to Excel.

I think one or two of the methods above are better.

>I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's writing is
really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer Hemingway, to
use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story fits his or her
personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer liked it.

>*However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I particularly
liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer should indicate why he
or she likes a particular quote and what it did for the overall story. And
the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.

If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why it's not
good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a comment for
the author. It's the author who is going to keep that feedback. Feedback
being the main purpose of the awards, it should be feedback format over
recommendation. The author doesn't need a list of quotes. They know what
they wrote. I wouldn't want a read to quote whole paragraphs of my stuff
just to say they liked it. A favorite line here or there is great though.
But mostly, I want to know why the reader liked it. And for another reader,
well, if I didn't think the story was interesting from the summary, I might
be looking at comment. I don't want to read the story until I want to read
the story. Tell me why you liked it and I might be curious enough to read
the story myself.

And then there's the vote-stacking. You're using the author's words to
build up character count instead of saying why you liked it.

>Ainae, I noticed that on the web sites some comments break off mid-
sentence. I wasn't even going to mention it because it's really not
important, if I really wanted to see I just searched for the comment in the
Yahoo group. But could this be related to the '/n' that I think you said you
were using to preserve hard returns? And would it make things simpler for
you next year if we said 'no line breaks in comments'? (It might also
encourage people to limit how much they
quote.)

Well, you'd think that would work, but it's exactly what didn't work for me.
Remember I was writing my comments ahead in an Excel spreadsheet cell. No
line breaks. Then I pasted them into the ballot. No line breaks when I
clicked Send. But when it showed up on the list it had line breaks.

> > 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered Good idea, but

>I don't think you can require people only read the first few chapters (or
disallow them from reading the whole thing). Even if you archived the
stories, people could find the whole things elsewhere. And how would you
handle people who had been reading the WIPs as they were posted? I think the
question shouldn't be whether to permit people to read the whole WIP or not,
but whether to allow them to read less than that. If I only had time to read
the first four chapters of "Lie Down in Darkness" can I review just those
four chapters (perhaps noting that my review only addressed the first four
chapters)?

It wouldn't be a requirement. They could read all they wanted. They just
wouldn't have to invest as much time in a WIP in order to vote on it.

>For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long finished
works - can we allow people to review long works that they have only found
the time to read part of, but enough to get a feel for the material?

No, answered this elsewhere. A WIP is, by definition, not finished. A
completed story is. You can't comment on how well the author wrapped up all
the loose ends in a WIP.

>I see our point. Stories can start off good but taper off or change in
such a way that the reader no longer likes them as much. But with WIPs,
there's no guarantee that the change won't take place after what the author
has currently written.

That's why they don't compete with completed stories and why the are
elligible again after they are finished.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3101

Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Larian Elensar December 10, 2004 - 22:30:33 Topic ID# 3099
Since we're putting the votes in word anyway...you can do a find and replace.
Find the quotes, then replace them with nothing, then count the characters.

Either that, or maybe (if we do it online) we can set it up not to count quote
marks?

Or...failing all else, just let them stay in and not worry about it. They won't
make a difference unless a vote is right on the edge of a point range anyway.

And if that happens, maybe just say that they'll be taken out at that point and
the lower point value will be counted for that vote. I have my doubts that too
many votes would fit that criteria.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Is this just so it's easier to see where a comment begins and ends?
>
> I can see why that would be good. But it would also add 2 characters to
> every vote. Do we just subtract two from the character count? Or do we up
> the cut-off points for each point by 2 characters? Of course, if we did
> that, the numbers wouldn't be very round. 1102 and up?
>
> It would be good though to have a good way to show where a comment begins
> and ends. Because we did see some that started right after the title--on
> the same line. Or that still had the summary in the ballot, which made it
> hard to tell where the comment started.
>
> Thoughts on this one, folks?
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
> http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Msg# 3102

Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 11, 2004 - 0:26:06 Topic ID# 3099
I just watched an episode of Monk. So I'll try to tone down my obsessive
compulsiveness and say two characters doesn't matter.

But I don't think quotes would be right. Why? Because there might be quotes
inside the comment. We'd need a piece of punctuation that won't occur in a
comment. Like a $ or @ symbol.

Or, I could make it even simpler and put a line under the summary on the
ballot, so votes have to go beneath that. I could also remove the summary
from the ballot. I left it in there this year so that it might help voters
remember which story is which.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 10:29 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks


Since we're putting the votes in word anyway...you can do a find and
replace.
Find the quotes, then replace them with nothing, then count the characters.

Either that, or maybe (if we do it online) we can set it up not to count
quote marks?

Or...failing all else, just let them stay in and not worry about it. They
won't make a difference unless a vote is right on the edge of a point range
anyway.

And if that happens, maybe just say that they'll be taken out at that point
and the lower point value will be counted for that vote. I have my doubts
that too many votes would fit that criteria.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Is this just so it's easier to see where a comment begins and ends?
>
> I can see why that would be good. But it would also add 2 characters
> to every vote. Do we just subtract two from the character count? Or
> do we up the cut-off points for each point by 2 characters? Of
> course, if we did that, the numbers wouldn't be very round. 1102 and up?
>
> It would be good though to have a good way to show where a comment
> begins and ends. Because we did see some that started right after the
> title--on the same line. Or that still had the summary in the ballot,
> which made it hard to tell where the comment started.
>
> Thoughts on this one, folks?
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
> http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3103

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem recap: more omments in the database Posted by elanor of aquitania December 11, 2004 - 11:48:13 Topic ID# 3103
> > Well, I couldn't remember any others that weren't in the
> > database. Thus,
> > it's important to put them in the database.
>
> >Hmm, somehow I do not feel able to put
> my thoughts into the database
> (aside of the quotation memos).
> My thoughts are too long and too many
> of my opinions are aside of the mainstream ;-)
> I believe I would inundate the database with my suggestions.
>
> >If you really want my suggestions in the database
> please repeat your request
> (the one tree categorization scheme would be one
> of them though already nixed).
>
> Yes, I do want them in the database (boil them down to a statement)
>

Hi Ainaechoiriel,
I found some time to put some more suggestions into the database.
Some are only variations to a theme (banners).
One I commented as already a nixed (one-tree-categorisation)
as this one is dear to _my_ heart.
I added it to remember it is nixed.

Concerning banners, I know you prefer artistical variation,
but I am a person who prefers a stringent categorisation
as well as a standard design in which only the pictures vary ;-)
(I have scientifical mind, I studied physics. Moreover, I think
that artists can work also within standard designs.
I even would prefer the text not to obscure the picture.)
I am in favour of corporate design to permit
an instant recognition of MEFAwards.
Many banners reminded me of icons for websites.

Thus, I wrote into the database suggestions
that are important for me
but probably not for anybody else ;-)

Feel free to nix or delete what you want.

ordered alphabetically:

award banners should identify the respective subcategory and rank per
standard
- here I meant that subcategory and rank should be set with
normal-sized characters aside of or into the picture.
In contrast to what was done now, I personally would give
the LoTR-relevant names in smaller character size or not at all on the
banner.

banners: evenly coloured frames as background for text aside of the picture

- I prefer the text not to obscure the picture and to allow a more congruent
design
via the arrangement of frame (size and placing) and picture

copying to generate author comments allowed (though preferably with
alterations)
- this was already discussed but I did not find it in the database


each artist should provide one complete set of banners per subcategory

- again, I am all for an as congruent set of banners as possible ;-)

initialize beginnings for corporate design for MEFAwards banners
- see above

make the banners a bit more congruent (size, characters)
- the least possible restriction would be a standard size,
which is something you favoured if I remember rightly.
As you wanted flowery characters for romances and other styles
for other categories my suggestion is already too restrictive,
but I am really in favour of a standard character style.
I think one could find a style that could cover romance
as well as horror.

only one catergory tree branching out to all subcategories no
yes
- is already nixed (but dear to my heart)

spawn subcats to achieve an evenly distribution of fics (5-15?) per
subcategory
- here I mean that we should not have categories of 5 fics
and others of 20 fics as this weighs the ranked stories
quite differently (I would even support an upper limit of 10 stories)
I think one should be flexible: if another subcategory could become viable
then cut at 10 otherwise cut at 15. That means:
with 17 fics in a category one has to open another subcategory,
with 13 fics in a category one has to look
if one finds another existing subcategory where 1-3 of the fics could fit
in,
or one has to open another subcategory wherein at least 5 fics could be
fitted
leaving 8 fics in the original category,
or one leaves the situation as it is.

vote for one complete set of banners to avoid incongruities
- again my preference for categorization and corporate design ;-)
although the Award banners of the different ranks
will be shown at different web sites
I still would prefer that on the MEFA pages
one could identify one category by design.

OT:
I wanted to correct "catergory" but I am not allowed to edit.

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3104

Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Larian Elensar December 11, 2004 - 12:52:12 Topic ID# 3099
How did I know you watched Monk!!?? *grin*

I recently found it myself. *hee*

I think the line under the summary would be the easiest thing to do. Or even
add the line then something like...


VOTE HERE:

so they know where to start their comments?


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I just watched an episode of Monk. So I'll try to tone down my obsessive
> compulsiveness and say two characters doesn't matter.
>
> But I don't think quotes would be right. Why? Because there might be quotes
> inside the comment. We'd need a piece of punctuation that won't occur in a
> comment. Like a $ or @ symbol.
>
> Or, I could make it even simpler and put a line under the summary on the
> ballot, so votes have to go beneath that. I could also remove the summary
> from the ballot. I left it in there this year so that it might help voters
> remember which story is which.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 10:29 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks
>
>
> Since we're putting the votes in word anyway...you can do a find and
> replace.
> Find the quotes, then replace them with nothing, then count the characters.
>
> Either that, or maybe (if we do it online) we can set it up not to count
> quote marks?
>
> Or...failing all else, just let them stay in and not worry about it. They
> won't make a difference unless a vote is right on the edge of a point range
> anyway.
>
> And if that happens, maybe just say that they'll be taken out at that point
> and the lower point value will be counted for that vote. I have my doubts
> that too many votes would fit that criteria.
>
>
> --- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Is this just so it's easier to see where a comment begins and ends?
> >
> > I can see why that would be good. But it would also add 2 characters
> > to every vote. Do we just subtract two from the character count? Or
> > do we up the cut-off points for each point by 2 characters? Of
> > course, if we did that, the numbers wouldn't be very round. 1102 and up?
> >
> > It would be good though to have a good way to show where a comment
> > begins and ends. Because we did see some that started right after the
> > title--on the same line. Or that still had the summary in the ballot,
> > which made it hard to tell where the comment started.
> >
> > Thoughts on this one, folks?
> >
> >
> > --Ainaechoiriel
> > MEFA Admin and Founder
> >
> > "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> > said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
> >
> > http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> > Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
> > http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
> a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Msg# 3105

AW: [MEFAwards] PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by elanor of aquitania December 11, 2004 - 15:07:14 Topic ID# 3105
> Is this just so it's easier to see where a comment begins and ends?

Ooops, I meant "_quotations_ should be enclosed in quotation marks".
Just to differentiate between voter's words and author's words.
As I wrote some time ago:
I didn't do it sometimes, because it was clear
through the formatting in the vote.
But the formatting got lost in the procedure.

I added now another entry into the database.

> It would be good though to have a good way to show where a
> comment begins and ends.

Yes, I think so too.
But definitely not quotation marks,
I would use # to identify start and end of vote.

Thus missing parts of the vote will be easier to detect.

> Because we did see some that started right after
> the title--on
> the same line. Or that still had the summary in the ballot,
> which made it
> hard to tell where the comment started.

That would be covered by starting the vote with #.

> Or, I could make it even simpler and put a line under the
> summary on the
> ballot, so votes have to go beneath that. I could also
> remove the summary
> from the ballot. I left it in there this year so that it
> might help voters
> remember which story is which.
>

No, please leave the summary on the ballot.
It made it much easier to identify a story.

Sorry for the confusion,
maybe it was worth something ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3106

Re: PM: voter should add number of characters (without spaces) of t Posted by Marta December 12, 2004 - 14:07:03 Topic ID# 3098
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> I'll have to say No to this one. Why? Because we can't rely on
voters to
> give us the number of characters and still maintain integrity.
Think about
> it. One dishonest voter could cause fraud.
>
>

I agree with Ainae. And even if no voters actually acted fraudulently,
it could cause the *perception* of fraud, with no easy way to disprove
it.

Marta

Msg# 3107

Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Marta December 12, 2004 - 14:20:14 Topic ID# 3099
> But I don't think quotes would be right. Why? Because there might
be quotes
> inside the comment. We'd need a piece of punctuation that won't
occur in a
> comment. Like a $ or @ symbol.
>

That's true. I think at one point I suggested ^ or | because I can't
think of why those would be used in a summary. Whatever character we
use, we probably should tell nominators somewhere to make sure that
they don't use it in their summaries (and I presume, voters shouldn't
use it in their votes except to mark off quotes.

> Or, I could make it even simpler and put a line under the summary on
the
> ballot, so votes have to go beneath that. I could also remove the
summary
> from the ballot. I left it in there this year so that it might help
voters
> remember which story is which.
>

I found the summaries very helpful. When I read stories I just went
through the ballot and chose the ones I wanted to go to, then went to
that URL and read the story. So taking the summaries out altogether
would make participating more difficult for me. However, I think you
could require that people trim the summaries out on the ballot they
send to the Yahoo group with their votes.

Marta

Msg# 3108

Re: Post Mortem recap Posted by Marta December 12, 2004 - 21:10:35 Topic ID# 3059
Hi Ainae,

> Re: Authors comments

> >I like them. And for those of us who are more interested in the
feedback
>> than whether we win an award, any feedback is an added bonus.
>> (I consider myself in the latter category; I was tickled pink at
how many
>> people read and enjoyed my stuff, people who I hadn't known were
reading
>> prior to these awards). I do think they need to change, though.

> I definitely like them myself. Receiving them. I don't mind giving
them. I
> just recognize they are harder to write.

Sure. I wrote precious few myself, even compared to the relative
number of authors (compared to story entries in any given category).
If I could write just one per author and copy-and-paste into multiple
ballots, I think I'd write a lot more. Especially if we have access to
some samples (either from this years' awards, or from the Star Trek
awards) I think that will make it all the easier.

<snip>
> My brain is telling me it would be more complicated to figure out
who is
> elligible for what if we go Authors/Elves, Authors/Elves/Drabble,
> Authors/Men....

> At least administratively. <snip>

I see your point here. And I'm all for anything that will make your
job (and others') easier.

> And for me, as a voter, I'm a lot more likely to write a somewhat
decent
> Author comment if it's right there with the story. Ideally, I read
the
> story, comment on the story, comment on the author. (Though if the
author
> has several stories in the same category, I'll read all the stories
I want
> to by that person before I write the author comment.)

Hmm, I generally write my authors' comments all in one bunch, just
before I send in the ballots. I think this helps me emphasize those
things that jumped out enough that I can remember them. But that's me.

If it's easier administratively, I'll go with X/Authors division, and
it will address all of my concerns if I can write one review for each
author and just copy-and-paste it into the different categories.

One question, though - are we supposed to restrict our comments just
to works by that author nominated for that years' awards, or can we
comment on the author more generally?

>>> 2) Honorable Mention

> >Definitely less than five. My original idea was within 10% of the
first
>>place vote count (rounded to the nearest vote).

<snip>
> ;-) I hate math. With a passion! I haven't had to take a math class
since
> my freshman year of college and that was over 14 years ago. I love
my
> calculators now. No percentages please.

Fair enough. Though you just move the decimal one place and round... ;
-)

But I digress. I know I'm more "math-y" than most people. And I am
still sufficiently reluctant to volunteer to figure out all those
honourable mentions myself.

Five sounds good to me. It's a fair number, is nice and round... are
there any objection?

>> The exact number, though, is less important to me than that
honourable
>>mentions are distributed. I will go with whatever Ainae and/or the
rest of
>>the group decides.

> Is anyone opposed to 5? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

"Not I," said the Little Red Hen...

>>> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.

>> It's not. I think the Mithrils ran into a similar problem. Since
the set-up
>>is different, I think they were able to solve this issue by having
screeners
>>do the word-count (though I could be mistaken); that of course
wouldn't work
>>for me.

Sorry, I meant for *the MEFAs*. But I guess everyone guessed what I
meant.

>> I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for
what we
>>consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to indicate
where
>>they want their story to run, just like they'll choose their
category.

> That's an idea. There are two issues with this, though. I'm for one
and
> against the other. Though it may be hard for me to write out why.

> For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
> reading.

I agree. It would be good to have some indication of length, even if
only a general category provided by author or a chapter count, even if
we didn't use it for categorization.

> Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the
exeption of
> those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.

I agree drabble and vignette should continue to be their own category.
I would add novel to this list, for a few reasons:

1. The basic structure may be the same as shorter works, but it takes
a certain skill to write a novel well. You need discipline and
endurance, and you need a very strong plot to carry a piece for 50k+
words.

2. There is more to comment on. We have argued that it is easier or
harder to write reviews for shorter or longer works; but we agree that
it is different.

3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a shorter multi-
part piece, just because it will spend more time on the front page of
archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
season.

I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing. Even if they
do, the differences show that longer works require a different skill
set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).

>> Here's my best stabs at word counts.

>> * Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
>>* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
>>consisting of multiple scenes)

> This sounds better to me. Have you ever entered a writing contest?
They
> often say a limit of 25,000 words for short stories.

No, unfortunately. Fanfic is the first fiction I've written since
about the age of eight (save some hastily-written school assignments).
But I have *read* a lot of fiction, and 20-25k seemed about average
for the short story I felt comfortable reading.

>> * Novella: 25,000 - 50,000 words
>>* Novel: 50,000+ words

> I might go a little higher than that. 70,000 is the average Pocket
Books was
> doing. That's why I couldn't submit Oswiecim to them. I was 100,
000 words
> over. And cutting that much would have gutted it.

I chose 50,000 because this is the limits for both National Novel
Writing Month (NaNoWriMo.org) and the novel category at the Mithrils
(viragene.com/tolkien). And as you said, I think pieces tend to be a
bit shorter here than in the Trek fandom, both because we're writing
for a free publishing and largely electronic medium, and because the
canon is so extensive that there's less a need to fill in the
background.

But I'm negotiable on this. If you really think 70,000 is the better
limit I'll go with that.

<snip>
>>> No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a
lot of
>>work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.

> How about "no more than two sentences"?

Hmm, but sentence length varies so much from writer to writer. Maybe
"no more than four lines" - lines being of the archive that you're
reading the fic at? You couldn't police this exactly, but I think you
could get a feel for how long such a passage was through your email?

I tend to see this as more of a guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
You only check it if it looks like it's getting abused. But that may
not be the management's philosophy.

<snip>
>> Would it maybe be possible to let the voter submit an "official"
vote with
>>few quotes, but to post to the Yahoo group some of their favourite
quotes?
>>These could be included on the "comments" page but wouldn't count
for voting
>>purposes.

> No. Too much work for me.

Fair enough!

<snip>
> >Assuming we're still doing this by hand next year... aren't the
voters
>>copying into Word or some word processor to count? Maybe if we
required that
>>all quotes be set off by some special character?
<snip>
> Well, because when I count, I also copy that quote into a
spreadsheet so I
> can make the comments pages. If I have to fix the line breaks, I
count
> them, fix them in Word, and then copy them back to Excel.

Hmm, so you can do character counts in Excel? I didn't know that. Or
are you saying that you count the characters in Word (or some other
way), but also put them in a spreadsheet for purposes of mail merge?

> I think one or two of the methods above are better.

I agree. I prefer them myself.

>> I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's
writing is
>>really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer
Hemingway, to
>>use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story fits his or
her
>>personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer liked it.

>> *However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I
particularly
>>liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer should
indicate why he
>>or she likes a particular quote and what it did for the overall
story. And
>>the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.

> If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
it's not
> good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
comment for
> the author.

That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
glad to have it clarified.

> It's the author who is going to keep that feedback. Feedback
> being the main purpose of the awards, it should be feedback format
over
> recommendation. The author doesn't need a list of quotes. They
know what
> they wrote. I wouldn't want to read a quote whole paragraphs of my
stuff
> just to say they liked it.

I like reading quotes from my stuff because it shows me what is
working. But short quotes. The rule-of-thumb I used was, if I were
quoting this in a term paper would I put it in block quotes (indented
text in a new paragraph with no quotes marks) or would I use
interlinear quotes (quotes worked into the body of the paper)? I think
the MLA guideline is four lines (in a word processor). Or maybe three.
Anywho, if it's long enough that I'd want to put it into a block
quote, it's probably too long for the awards and I would paraphrase
it, describe the beginning and end of the quote ("Everything from [X]
to [Y]."), or whatever.

But that's just my vague guideline, and I'm not sure how to make it
into a formal rule.

> A favorite line here or there is great though.
> But mostly, I want to know why the reader liked it.

I agree with you here. That's why I drew the distinction between
integrated quotes and just a list of several lengthy passages.

<snip>
> And then there's the vote-stacking. You're using the author's words
to
> build up character count instead of saying why you liked it.

Again, I agree.

>> Ainae, I noticed that on the web sites some comments break off mid-
>>sentence. I wasn't even going to mention it because it's really not
>>important, if I really wanted to see I just searched for the comment
in the
>>Yahoo group. But could this be related to the '/n' that I think you
said you
>>were using to preserve hard returns? And would it make things
simpler for
>>you next year if we said 'no line breaks in comments'? (It might
also
>>encourage people to limit how much they
>>quote.)

> Well, you'd think that would work, but it's exactly what didn't work
for me.
> Remember I was writing my comments ahead in an Excel spreadsheet
cell. No
> line breaks.

FWIW, I was composing mine in a Word .rtf document. There were
occasionally line breaks, but when I posted the ballot from the
website (groups.yahoo.com/group/mefawards/), the website entered line
breaks I didn't put in. We promises...

I know that in cases like these you will have to remove line breaks (I
suppose in a word processor document before you copy-and-paste into
the spreadsheet? That's how I'd do it.) But you wouldn't have to worry
about preserving the line breaks, which I assume would make your life
easier. But if you don't need that, then no need to mess with it.

>>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

>> I don't think you can require people only read the first few
chapters
<snip>
>>I think the
>>question shouldn't be whether to permit people to read the whole WIP
or not,
>>but whether to allow them to read less than that.
<snip>
> It wouldn't be a requirement. They could read all they wanted.
They just
> wouldn't have to invest as much time in a WIP in order to vote on
it.

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Personally, I'd like to
have this option. Read a minimum of X chapters but as much as you want
to above that minimum, and then review (if you so choose) whatever
you've read.

>> For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long
finished
>>works

I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
finished epics.

Marta

Msg# 3109

AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap (Marta's post) Posted by elanor of aquitania December 13, 2004 - 4:15:46 Topic ID# 3059
<much snipping>
> >> I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for
> what we
> >>consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to indicate
> where
> >>they want their story to run, just like they'll choose their
> category.
>
> > That's an idea. There are two issues with this, though.
> I'm for one
> and
> > against the other. Though it may be hard for me to write out why.
>
> > For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
> > reading.
>
> I agree. It would be good to have some indication of length, even if
> only a general category provided by author or a chapter
> count, even if
> we didn't use it for categorization.

I agree. I would like before clicking to know what awaits me ;-)
I work as such:
read first the short pieces, as much of them as possible,
read then the longer pieces depending on the precis.

>
> > Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the
> exeption of
> > those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.
>
> I agree drabble and vignette should continue to be their own
> category.
> I would add novel to this list, for a few reasons:
>
> 1. The basic structure may be the same as shorter works, but it takes
> a certain skill to write a novel well. You need discipline and
> endurance, and you need a very strong plot to carry a piece for 50k+
> words.

I support this.

>
> 2. There is more to comment on. We have argued that it is easier or
> harder to write reviews for shorter or longer works; but we
> agree that
> it is different.

I very much support this.

>
> 3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
> accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a shorter multi-
> part piece, just because it will spend more time on the front page of
> archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
> season.
>
> I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
> shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing. Even if they
> do, the differences show that longer works require a different skill
> set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
> their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).

I think long stories will generate votes from readers who have read them
outside of reading season. At least I found no time to read new long stories
during reading time. I had enough to do to reread those already known to me
and to comment them (and then missing to vote on Dwim's story
makes me really sad, sigh) .

A new thought just came to me:
how about to integrate new comments on old stories into the
review pages from members of this list
marked by "written after contest in (year of addition)"?

They have not to be counted only to be copied into the web-page.

It is additional work for Ainaechoiriel, sorry about that,
but one could see which stories rise comments year after year.

Moreover, I think this will be few comments.

Yet, after 5 years you could add another award category:
"stories which thrive in the fan-community" ;-)

Made a new entry into database:
add comments after contest marked "written after contest in (year of
addition)"

>
> >> Here's my best stabs at word counts.
>
> >> * Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
> >>* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
> >>consisting of multiple scenes)
>
> > This sounds better to me. Have you ever entered a writing
> contest?
> They
> > often say a limit of 25,000 words for short stories.
>

I have no further ideas to add concerning the number of words,
I only would like to see the long stories in another league.

> <snip>
> >>> No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a
> lot of
> >>work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.
>
> > How about "no more than two sentences"?
>
> Hmm, but sentence length varies so much from writer to writer. Maybe
> "no more than four lines" - lines being of the archive that you're
> reading the fic at? You couldn't police this exactly, but I think you
> could get a feel for how long such a passage was through your email?
>
> I tend to see this as more of a guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
> You only check it if it looks like it's getting abused. But that may
> not be the management's philosophy.

I would agree to that. Moreover, I proposed to reword my votes
when I got the info that my votes appeared to be vote stacking.
It would have been no problem for me.

I treated my votes very differently:
were the speech itself was very important for me I quoted
and were the content or craft was more important I paraphrased.
Thus, I did not realize that quoting might be seen as vote stacking.
But, I counted my characters before sending off any vote.
So, a critical person could see it as vote stacking.

Therefore, to avoid such critique to the MEFAwards
I offered again and again to rework the votes
while keeping the point-number the same as allotted.

Yet, seemingly to process the offered changed votes
would have required too much administrative efforts ;-)

<snipping>
>
> >> I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's
> writing is
> >>really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer
> Hemingway, to
> >>use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story
> fits his or
> her
> >>personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer liked it.
>
> >> *However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I
> particularly
> >>liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer should
> indicate why he
> >>or she likes a particular quote and what it did for the overall
> story. And
> >>the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.
>
> > If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
> it's not
> > good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> > recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
> comment for
> > the author.
>
> That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
> glad to have it clarified.

Hmm, I see it still as recommendations. This is what will appear in the web.
This is what readers will see when they search for recommended stories.
I will distribute the link to give hints on recommended stories if asked.

For me the recommendation part is at least as important as the
feedback to the authors. What are five feedbacks in comparison to
what the authors get in fanfiction.net or in the forums?
But clearly stated recommendations with small excerpts of the story
to get a feeling for the writing style is something
I would really very much like to see as a reader before I select a story.


<snipping>

> >>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> >> I don't think you can require people only read the first few
> chapters
> <snip>
> >>I think the
> >>question shouldn't be whether to permit people to read the
> whole WIP
> or not,
> >>but whether to allow them to read less than that.
> <snip>
> > It wouldn't be a requirement. They could read all they wanted.
> They just
> > wouldn't have to invest as much time in a WIP in order to vote on
> it.
>
> Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Personally, I'd like to
> have this option. Read a minimum of X chapters but as much as
> you want
> to above that minimum, and then review (if you so choose) whatever
> you've read.
>
> >> For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long
> finished
> >>works
>
> I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
> distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
> finished epics.

I do not rescind my earlier words,
I still see no difference between WIP and completed story.
For me they are not in different leagues A and B with respect
to voting on all the chapters written.
But I do bow to the majority and especially the MEFA Admin :-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3110

Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear... Posted by arielphf December 13, 2004 - 14:54:04 Topic ID# 3054
Sorry for being so late in getting back to you on this. I tried
replying as a non-member, but it apparently didn't go.

Silvermoonlady is a dear friend and a very worthy author. I have no
problem letting her keep the award. I am content knowing that my fic
was in the running but I don't think it fair to take the award away
from someone to whom it has already been given.

Ariel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
>
> Now the question is what do we do about it?
>
> We mistakenly gave SilvermoonLady the 3rd place Award for Hobbits
> (General), when it should have gone to Ariel for "Of Dwarvish Ale
and
> the Fairer Sex."
>
> The lattter had 23 points while SilvermoonLady's had 21. Somehow
we
> overlooked it. Or rather, I did. Either way, I'm very sorry.
>
> So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner
> for it. But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady? Do we tell her
she
> must give it up? Or do we let them both keep them? The latter
> wouldn't really be fair because it tied with another story and the
> other story wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was
> broken).
>
> SilvermoonLady, Ariel (if you're out there?) What do you want to do?
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3111

Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 16:00:23 Topic ID# 3103
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:51 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem recap: more omments in the database



Hi Ainaechoiriel,
>I found some time to put some more suggestions into the database.

Saw them.

>Some are only variations to a theme (banners).
>One I commented as already a nixed (one-tree-categorisation) as this one is
dear to _my_ heart.
I added it to remember it is nixed.

Okay.

>Concerning banners, I know you prefer artistical variation, but I am a
person who prefers a stringent categorisation as well as a standard design
in which only the pictures vary ;-) (I have scientifical mind, I studied
physics. Moreover, I think that artists can work also within standard
designs.
I even would prefer the text not to obscure the picture.) I am in favour of
corporate design to permit an instant recognition of MEFAwards.
Many banners reminded me of icons for websites.

Well, sorry but I just don't agree. I'm a left-brained creative person.
Which may sound like an oxymoron, but there you have it. Take a look at
some of the banners I submitted this year. Some had text on the pics, some
had text beside it. They had different fonts, different colors for text,
based on the pictures. Different sizes though most were similar rectangles.


More on this below.

>Thus, I wrote into the database suggestions that are important for me but
probably not for anybody else ;-)

Possibly. ;-) Or maybe not. But still it would take a vast majority (in the
litteral sense0 before I'd even think about changing my mind on that one.

>Feel free to nix or delete what you want.

Nix perhaps, but not delete. For memory purposes. I just can't be relied
upon to remember things.

ordered alphabetically:

>award banners should identify the respective subcategory and rank per
standard
- here I meant that subcategory and rank should be set with
normal-sized characters aside of or into the picture.
In contrast to what was done now, I personally would give the LoTR-relevant
names in smaller character size or not at all on the banner.

This one will take some discussion because SOME of it is workable but we
need to figure out how. For instance, the rank would be the same for every
banner of the same award. Fist is first is first. Main category would be
the same too. But I won't make everyone submit 15 copies of the same banner
with just the subtitle changing. At least not at the time of submission.

Discussion point #1: but would it look good? I actually liked the bars Viv
made for this year. If they only had the subcategory, and all the other
information was on the banner itself, would it look bad? Would the banner
look too cluttered with all those words up there?

Discussion point #2: About that last sentence two paragraphs up: At least
not at the time of submission. IF we chose to have the full information in
the banner (see discussion point #1), it might be possible to ask the
winning artists to add the subcategories to their winning banners. That
way, it would distribute the work, negate unecessary work for non-winning
banners, and insure uniform color and font for each banner.

Note, uniform color and font is for each banner separately, not for every
banner across the board.

>banners: evenly coloured frames as background for text aside of the picture

>- I prefer the text not to obscure the picture and to allow a more
congruent design via the arrangement of frame (size and placing) and picture

Some banner look great with the words on the banner. Some look better with
the words not obscuring the picture. It's a creativity point. Also it's a
size point. If you have a rectangular picture that is already banner-sized
and you don't put the words on the picture, you have to add extra space
somewhere.

As for evenly colored frames, again no. The picture the artist choose may
clash terribly with that color. I say the artist uses a color that stands
out well against the picture, but that complements well with the picture.
And that, of course, depends on the picture used, and so we can't set a
standard.

>copying to generate author comments allowed (though preferably with
alterations)
- this was already discussed but I did not find it in the database

Thanks. That was my own suggestion for how we might make Author comments
easier and thus encourage more of them.


>each artist should provide one complete set of banners per subcategory

>- again, I am all for an as congruent set of banners as possible ;-)

And, again. I'm not. ;-) The more WORK we make it, the less likely someone
is going to submit anything.

>initialize beginnings for corporate design for MEFAwards banners
>- see above

Above doesn't help me. I don't understand this one.

>make the banners a bit more congruent (size, characters)
- the least possible restriction would be a standard size, which is
something you favoured if I remember rightly.

Yeah, I was good with this one. The size anyway.

>As you wanted flowery characters for romances and other styles for other
categories my suggestion is already too restrictive,
but I am really in favour of a standard character style.

I want them to go with the picture. Eowyn was a good example. When we had
Eowyn banners, some were pictures of her that showed her soft side, the
princess. Others showed her in armor, about to slay the Witch King.
Eowyn, the warrior. I wouldn't want flowery text for Eowyn, the warrior.
But I'd want pretty text for Eowyn the princess. Some category, different
pictures.
I think one could find a style that could cover romance as well as horror.

>only one catergory tree branching out to all subcategories no
yes
- is already nixed (but dear to my heart)

Yep, already nixed.

>spawn subcats to achieve an evenly distribution of fics (5-15?) per
subcategory
- here I mean that we should not have categories of 5 fics and others of 20
fics as this weighs the ranked stories quite differently (I would even
support an upper limit of 10 stories) I think one should be flexible: if
another subcategory could become viable then cut at 10 otherwise cut at 15.
That means:
with 17 fics in a category one has to open another subcategory, with 13 fics
in a category one has to look if one finds another existing subcategory
where 1-3 of the fics could fit in, or one has to open another subcategory
wherein at least 5 fics could be fitted leaving 8 fics in the original
category, or one leaves the situation as it is.

This could get dangerous. Remember there is a delicate balance between
having a too few awards and too many. We don't want to completely dilute
the awards so they mean nothing by having every 3 out of five stories be a
winner. Also, we can't constrain the nominators. You don't know which
stories I'm going to nominate and I don't know which stories you are going
to nominate. So we can't predict whetehr we'll have 17 in one category or
7. And I don't believe you were one of the categorizers this year. It's
hard enough. We don't need to make it harder.

Remember that the person who knows the story best will assign it 3 choices
of categories: the author. The author will also suggest some subcategories.
We will need to determine our upper limit: at which point do we declare a
new main category? Men/Gondor, for example, had 27 stories. This year,
main categories were locked by the time Nomination Season began. I propose
that next year we be more flexible, adding main categories as needed during
Nomination Season. But it has to be standardized. We need a protocol we
can follow. This won't be done on a whim. So, how many stories in the same
subcategory means a new main category? (And this also wouldn't work for
every subcategory: Men/Drabble could not become Drabble as a main category.
It just wouldn't work. Neither would Men/Romance. Romance is already a
main category. See? It's complicated.)

>vote for one complete set of banners to avoid incongruities
- again my preference for categorization and corporate design ;-) although
the Award banners of the different ranks will be shown at different web
sites I still would prefer that on the MEFA pages one could identify one
category by design.

No, because any particular artist may make only one banner in the set.
There's nothing saying that if they're inspired to create a Minas Morgul
banner, they also have to make a Barad'dur and Orthanc one. There's no
guarantee we have sets.

>OT:
I wanted to correct "catergory" but I am not allowed to edit.

Yep. I'm not worried about typos in there.

There is one other suggestion I didn't understand. I don't know if you
added it or someone else:

add comments after contest marked "written after contest in (year of
addition)"

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3112

Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 16:06:03 Topic ID# 3105
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 3:08 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks


> Is this just so it's easier to see where a comment begins and ends?

>Ooops, I meant "_quotations_ should be enclosed in quotation marks".
Just to differentiate between voter's words and author's words.
As I wrote some time ago:
I didn't do it sometimes, because it was clear through the formatting in the
vote.
But the formatting got lost in the procedure.

Well, we're limiting quoting next year anyway, so it will have to be in
quotation marks (that's correct punctuation unless you're quoting a large
block--which we won't be doing.)

So putting quotes in quotation markes is a given.



>I added now another entry into the database.

Taken care of.

>> It would be good though to have a good way to show where a comment
> begins and ends.

>Yes, I think so too.
But definitely not quotation marks,
I would use # to identify start and end of vote.

>Thus missing parts of the vote will be easier to detect.

I think we'll either use a line or the VOTE HERE: thing. Sometimes you have
to be blunt. But, if we go automated and vote on the web, we won't need
this at all!

>> Or, I could make it even simpler and put a line under the summary on
> the ballot, so votes have to go beneath that. I could also remove the
> summary from the ballot. I left it in there this year so that it
> might help voters remember which story is which.
>

>No, please leave the summary on the ballot.
It made it much easier to identify a story.

I agree. I may not remember titles. I'll leave them in.

>Sorry for the confusion,
maybe it was worth something ;-)

No problem, the confusion created a good suggestion.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3113

Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 16:09:41 Topic ID# 3099
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 2:19 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: PM: comments have to be enclosed in quotation marks

>That's true. I think at one point I suggested ^ or | because I can't think
of why those would be used in a summary. Whatever character we use, we
probably should tell nominators somewhere to make sure that they don't use
it in their summaries (and I presume, voters shouldn't use it in their votes
except to mark off quotes.

The simplest way is to not leave it to the nominator at all. I can easily
add a VOTE HERE line to a ballot by mail merge.

>> I could also remove the
summary
> from the ballot. I left it in there this year so that it might help
voters
> remember which story is which.
>

>I found the summaries very helpful. When I read stories I just went through
the ballot and chose the ones I wanted to go to, then went to that URL and
read the story. So taking the summaries out altogether would make
participating more difficult for me. However, I think you could require that
people trim the summaries out on the ballot they send to the Yahoo group
with their votes.

Well, no. Why? Because the author knows the story best. I trust their
summaries. So whatever the author writes is summary enough. I pretty much
copied the summaries for my nominations word-for-word from what the author
wrote. Copy-and-paste. No brain-work required. ;-) And I'd hate to make
a summary that detracted people from reading an author's work. No, I think
the summary should be the one you find on whatever archive you find the
story. Of course, if its own your story....
--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3114

Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear... Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 16:22:21 Topic ID# 3054
No, I'm the sorry one. I got your e-mail and did some edits on the web site
so it shows you both. I just didn't get around to replying. I'm getting
particularly bad about such things. And my inbox just keeps getting bigger
and bigger.....

So, this was an administrative mistake so we won't take the award away from
Silvermoon Lady. Areiel, you are, of course, entitled to put that banner up
with your story. And next year, we'll even have Honorable Mentions for the
non-winning ties.

Of course.....Viv....we "could" make Honorable Mentions for only non-winning
ties this year. It's up to you. I can supply the categories if you wan to
add a bar to the right banner. And we'll e-mail them to the authors. No
administrative muss this year if we only use the ties. We'll work on the
point count for next year.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: arielphf [mailto:lgreenaw@kcnet.org]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 2:53 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear...



Sorry for being so late in getting back to you on this. I tried replying as
a non-member, but it apparently didn't go.

Silvermoonlady is a dear friend and a very worthy author. I have no problem
letting her keep the award. I am content knowing that my fic was in the
running but I don't think it fair to take the award away from someone to
whom it has already been given.

Ariel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
>
> Now the question is what do we do about it?
>
> We mistakenly gave SilvermoonLady the 3rd place Award for Hobbits
> (General), when it should have gone to Ariel for "Of Dwarvish Ale
and
> the Fairer Sex."
>
> The lattter had 23 points while SilvermoonLady's had 21. Somehow
we
> overlooked it. Or rather, I did. Either way, I'm very sorry.
>
> So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner
> for it. But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady? Do we tell her
she
> must give it up? Or do we let them both keep them? The latter
> wouldn't really be fair because it tied with another story and the
> other story wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was
> broken).
>
> SilvermoonLady, Ariel (if you're out there?) What do you want to do?
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com







Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3115

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions Posted by elanor of aquitania December 13, 2004 - 18:27:11 Topic ID# 3115
> As for evenly colored frames, again no. The picture the
> artist choose may
> clash terribly with that color. I say the artist uses a
> color that stands
> out well against the picture, but that complements well with
> the picture.
> And that, of course, depends on the picture used, and so we
> can't set a
> standard.

I agree, I only wanted to say I would prefer a frame at the side
evenly coloured which could be well matching the colour of the picture.

I think _if_ one has a corporate design along

left frame text, right frame picture, each in standard size

text standardized form:

(large character size)
MEFAwards
Men
Drabble
1. place

(smaller character size)
The Faithful of Numenor

_then_ the frame colour is not so important.

The banner itself would be instantly recognizable
by the formatting via the distribution of text, frame, and picture.

> >each artist should provide one complete set of banners per
> > subcategory
>
> >- again, I am all for an as congruent set of banners as possible ;-)
>
> And, again. I'm not. ;-) The more WORK we make it, the less
> likely someone
> is going to submit anything.

I understand.

>
> >initialize beginnings for corporate design for MEFAwards banners
> >- see above
>
> Above doesn't help me. I don't understand this one.


The was the most abstract form I could think of to say
that I would like to see some more congruency in the banners
and that we should start thinking about a standard into which
the banners should fit.
Just to facilitate the recognition of a MEFAward.


> >spawn subcats to achieve an evenly distribution of fics (5-15?) per
> > subcategory
> > - here I mean that we should not have categories of 5 fics
> > and others of 20
> > fics as this weighs the ranked stories quite differently (I would even
> > support an upper limit of 10 stories) I think one should be
> > flexible: if
> > another subcategory could become viable then cut at 10
> > otherwise cut at 15.
> > That means:
> > with 17 fics in a category one has to open another
> > subcategory, with 13 fics
> > in a category one has to look if one finds another existing
> > subcategory
> > where 1-3 of the fics could fit in, or one has to open
> > another subcategory
> > wherein at least 5 fics could be fitted leaving 8 fics in the original
> > category, or one leaves the situation as it is.
>
> This could get dangerous. Remember there is a delicate
> balance between
> having a too few awards and too many. We don't want to
> completely dilute
> the awards so they mean nothing by having every 3 out of five
> stories be a
> winner. Also, we can't constrain the nominators. You don't
> know which
> stories I'm going to nominate and I don't know which stories
> you are going
> to nominate. So we can't predict whetehr we'll have 17 in
> one category or
> 7. And I don't believe you were one of the categorizers this
> year. It's
> hard enough. We don't need to make it harder.

To this I agree, but on the other hand the number of stories
per award should not be too varying.

>
> Remember that the person who knows the story best will assign
> it 3 choices
> of categories: the author. The author will also suggest some
> subcategories.
> We will need to determine our upper limit: at which point do
> we declare a
> new main category? Men/Gondor, for example, had 27 stories.
> This year,
> main categories were locked by the time Nomination Season
> began. I propose
> that next year we be more flexible, adding main categories as
> needed during
> Nomination Season. But it has to be standardized. We need a
> protocol we
> can follow. This won't be done on a whim. So, how many
> stories in the same
> subcategory means a new main category? (And this also
> wouldn't work for
> every subcategory: Men/Drabble could not become Drabble as a
> main category.
> It just wouldn't work. Neither would Men/Romance. Romance
> is already a
> main category. See? It's complicated.)

Yes, I see and I completely agree.
To discuss this I entered this point into the database ;-)
And made the suggestion above
on how I think one could handle it with much flexibility.
But you are the expert for this handling :-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3116

Re: Post Mortem recap (Marta's post) Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 19:06:09 Topic ID# 3059
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 4:17 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap (Marta's post)


<much snipping>

(me, too!)

> > For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
> > reading.
>
> I agree. It would be good to have some indication of length, even if
> only a general category provided by author or a chapter count, even if
> we didn't use it for categorization.

>I agree. I would like before clicking to know what awaits me ;-) I work as
such:
read first the short pieces, as much of them as possible, read then the
longer pieces depending on the precis.

Okay, I think we can Yes to showing that for reader consideration only at
this point. Anyone opposed?

> > Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the
> exeption of
> > those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.
>
> I agree drabble and vignette should continue to be their own category.
> I would add novel to this list, for a few reasons:

Okay, doesn't seem to be any opposition to that point.

> 1. The basic structure may be the same as shorter works, but it takes
> a certain skill to write a novel well. You need discipline and
> endurance, and you need a very strong plot to carry a piece for 50k+
> words.

>I support this.

I still don't. I'm not 100% sure on why. Par tof it is tradition (from the
ASC) an dpart of it I don't know... Just doesn't sit right with me. I had a
long story (Oswiecim--my longest) running concurrently with my short story
Healer. Healer didn't win. Oswiecim did. And many of the comments
Oswiecim got came because of the awards. I didn't have feedback from
everyone BEFORE the awards. More on that later.

But without knowing specifics, I'm sure there are times wher shorter stories
won over long ones. It simply went to the better story as judged by the
number and lengths of comments received.

> 2. There is more to comment on. We have argued that it is easier or
> harder to write reviews for shorter or longer works; but we agree that
> it is different.

>I very much support this.

I still say easier to write a long comment for a long story. But there will
very likely be more comments for short stories than for long ones. Volume
makes up for the difference in length.


> 3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
> accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a shorter multi-
> part piece, just because it will spend more time on the front page of
> archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
> season.
>
> I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
> shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing. Even if they
> do, the differences show that longer works require a different skill
> set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
> their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).

>I think long stories will generate votes from readers who have read them
outside of reading season. At least I found no time to read new long stories
during reading time. I had enough to do to reread those already known to me
and to comment them (and then missing to vote on Dwim's story makes me
really sad, sigh) .

I disagree. I read several long stories both in Reading Season and in
Voting Season. During the off-season, I'm lucky to get anything read. And
when I do, it's usually the shorter stories. Hey, I've got 590 completed
LOTR stories in my infamous spreadsheet. Those are stories I'd like to
read. (I joked with Dwimordene last night that we should require all
nominations to be storeis in my spreadsheet...so I could weed it down!) The
1 chapter ones disappear (I delete them once they are read) a lot faster
than the 24 chapter ones. The awards motivated me to read a lot of LOTR
stories. I read more during Voting Season alone that I probably had all
year before. And some of them were very long indeed. I Return by Coriel,
for example.

So I believe the awards motivates NEW readers to read the long ones. It's
not just those who already know the story. I had never heard of I Return
before. Perchance to Dream had been in my spreadsheet for quite some time.
(Hallelujah it's gone!--You don't even want to know the number WIPs I'm
tracking....Actually, the number of Completed stories is more. I have 605
WIPs I'm tracking...in four or five fandoms. The 590 completeds were LOTR
alone. Total there is 705! Scary, isn't it?) But I'd never gotten around to
reading it.

I still think they do cancel each other out. Short Story A might get 5
2-point votes. Long Story B might get 2 5-point votes. Both end up with
10.

Would anybody statistically minded like to glean through our winners and see
how we stood on ling stories vs short stories?

>A new thought just came to me:
how about to integrate new comments on old stories into the review pages
from members of this list marked by "written after contest in (year of
addition)"?

Okay, now I understand it.

>They have not to be counted only to be copied into the web-page.

>It is additional work for Ainaechoiriel, sorry about that, but one could
see which stories rise comments year after year.

Yes, it's more work for me. But there's a simple solution: send the comment
to the author. I was saddened that my friend missed the deadline for voting
in the ASC Awards. I might have won an award if she hadn't. But when I read
those comments, because she sent them to me anyway, I nearly cried. I
treasure those comments, even if they didn't make it into the awards. I'm
very glad she sent them to me anyway.

>Moreover, I think this will be few comments.

>Yet, after 5 years you could add another award category:
"stories which thrive in the fan-community" ;-)

No, because that WILL smack of elitism. And while I'd love to think
Oswiecim would blow any other DS9 story out of the water in such a category,
it would hurt me greatly if it didn't. Because let's face it, people
replace old memories with new ones. Hey, Oswiecim MIGHT get remembered (my
friend's comment shows it does and I do still get similar comments now and
then) but it also MIGHT NOT. And then I'd feel very bad indeed.

I'm one who also values the competition side of the awards, though it is
secondary. I WANT to win. I love feedback even when I don't, but I do love
to win. And it hurt when I didn't have a story in the running for ASC two
or three years ago (and very likely this year considerint the deadline is
Feb. 1st.) It hurt when I got so few comments for the third part of my
trilogy. My own fault really. It was posted two years after the second
part. Some of my readers of the first part had faded away by then....

And I've NEVER won Best DS9 Author. Not even Oswiecim's year. Saddens me,
to be honest.

So, no, I don't want to make an elitist award.

>I have no further ideas to add concerning the number of words, I only would
like to see the long stories in another league.

See above. Still against it. Scared to put it in a poll, too. Especially
when only a small fraction of our membership is participating in the polls.
HINT HINT You can keep trying to convince me, but I'm not there yet.

Oh, and to Marta's point:
I was talking about this to Dwim, and I know I've posted it here before.
Long and short do have the same elements and they have their own advantages
and disadvantages. It's easier to find a good plot that voers a longer
period of time. Finding a whole plot that takes place in 3 days or less is
not as easy. Thus novels are easier. But filling a novel is hard. Not
every day of those two years is exciting. So you have some filler. But
it's got to be usefull filler..... No need for filler with short stories. So
short stories are easier.

If anybody asks me which are harder, they get that answer. In a nutshell:
both.

I do feel novels will be DISADVANTAGED if they run in their own category. I
think more people will be able to walk right by them, thinking, I'll get to
that subcategory if I have time. Which they won't. I think they have a
better chance of being read if they are together. And we don't have to try
and figure where to make the breaking line.

This one is Marta's
> Hmm, but sentence length varies so much from writer to writer. Maybe
> "no more than four lines" - lines being of the archive that you're
> reading the fic at? You couldn't police this exactly, but I think you
> could get a feel for how long such a passage was through your email?
>
> I tend to see this as more of a guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
> You only check it if it looks like it's getting abused. But that may
> not be the management's philosophy.

Four lines is a block quote. Too much. Three lines, the same. A web page
has varied width based on the viewer's window-size besides. So four lines
could be very long indeed. Two sentences is more succinct. Yes, that could
be two paragraphs if you're talking about the first two sentences of
Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities, but that's not the usual case.

Back to Elanor
>I would agree to that. Moreover, I proposed to reword my votes when I got
the info that my votes appeared to be vote stacking.
It would have been no problem for me.

(snippage)

>Therefore, to avoid such critique to the MEFAwards I offered again and
again to rework the votes while keeping the point-number the same as
allotted.

Thank you.

<snipping>

> > If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
> it's not
> > good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> > recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
> comment for
> > the author.
>
> That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
> glad to have it clarified.

>Hmm, I see it still as recommendations. This is what will appear in the
web.
This is what readers will see when they search for recommended stories.
I will distribute the link to give hints on recommended stories if asked.

That's fine. But my main purpose for putting them up there was for the
authors. Not all of them are members here. I want them to be able to save
off those comments and keep them. Hey, if anyone wants to read all my
Oswiecim comments to decide if they want to read it, I'll gladly e-mail them
to you. ;-) But I'm glad the feedbackers sent the feedback to me. And
that's they way I see ff.net reviews too. It's one reason I've not liked
the chaptering feature when it was added. It turned reviews into mostly
post-more-encouragements rather than a review of the story. You might find
a mediocre Mary-Sue 20, chapter story with 300 reviews. Oswiecim has only
54. Which is the better story?

But I digress. I want our comments to be reviews. That means that
chapter-by-chapter comments won't be allowed next year either. That does
give longer stories an advantage. If you write just two sentences (even of
the same length) per chapter for two stories, one 2 chapters and the other
10, which will have the higher point count? Review the whole story.

>For me the recommendation part is at least as important as the feedback to
the authors. What are five feedbacks in comparison to what the authors get
in fanfiction.net or in the forums?

You'd be surprised. Sometimes, because the feedbacker knows it's for the
awards they write more for the comment than they would for the author. It's
like writing a rewiew of a book that's goint to be read by newspaper
readers, though it's addressed to the author. And, because ff.net may not
have gotten the reader to read that particular story, the awards may. Story
A may be so buried in ff.net that Reader B never finds it. But they find it
in the awards and love it. They write a comment. Now Story A's author has
feedback from Read B that she never had before.

Remember that I commented on nearly 300 stories and authors this year. I
can promise you I didn't read them all beforehand. And sometimes when I
did, I didn't leave a review at ff.net just because I was in a hurry or
whatever.

And! The MEFAs are positive feedback. Negative and even constructive
criticism goes against the voter here because it might get an unfavored
story an award. So here it's ALL encouragement.

>But clearly stated recommendations with small excerpts of the story to get
a feeling for the writing style is something I would really very much like
to see as a reader before I select a story.

They can click the link to get a feeling of the writing style.


<snipping>

> >>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>

> I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
> distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
> finished epics.

>I do not rescind my earlier words,
I still see no difference between WIP and completed story.

There is a BIG one. For one thing, they're unfinished. For another, you cut
the potential reader population when you bring up a WIP.

>For me they are not in different leagues A and B with respect to voting on
all the chapters written.
But I do bow to the majority and especially the MEFA Admin :-)

Thanks. But the issue isn't closed or decided yet. In fact, Dwim, was
against it when I spoke to her on the phone. Perhaps she'll find the time
to post her reasons why here soon.

Oh, by the by, I want to end the Post Mortem when December ends. With the
exception of categories. We'll do those (which ones stay, which ones get
added, different award titles, etc.) in January. Okay?


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3117

Re: Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 19:16:32 Topic ID# 3115
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 6:30 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions


>I agree, I only wanted to say I would prefer a frame at the side evenly
coloured which could be well matching the colour of the picture.

Count it up to aphasia. I just don't understand (so I've snipped the rest of
this). But this is a closed point anyway. There will be no standard color
or font or font size. Banner size, yes, there will be.


> >initialize beginnings for corporate design for MEFAwards banners
> >- see above
>
> Above doesn't help me. I don't understand this one.


>The was the most abstract form I could think of to say that I would like to
see some more congruency in the banners and that we should start thinking
about a standard into which the banners should fit.
Just to facilitate the recognition of a MEFAward.

Well, I hope people think first of the comment-based format when they think
of the MEFAs. And that word-of-mouth will bring the recognition because of
that format. I want the banners to be open to creativity


> This could get dangerous. Remember there is a delicate balance
> between
> having a too few awards and too many. We don't want to
> completely dilute
> the awards so they mean nothing by having every 3 out of five stories
> be a winner. Also, we can't constrain the nominators. You don't know
> which stories I'm going to nominate and I don't know which stories you
> are going to nominate. So we can't predict whetehr we'll have 17 in
> one category or 7. And I don't believe you were one of the
> categorizers this year. It's hard enough. We don't need to make it
> harder.

>To this I agree, but on the other hand the number of stories per award
should not be too varying.

I don't agree. Whatever is nominated is nominated. If that means 50 Elves
fics and only 5 Hobbits fics (just a random example) then so be it. If more
Elves General stories are nominated than Elves/Romance well, fine. Or vice
versa. What's nominated is nominated and the only rules for nominated are:

Story must not have been nominated before (unless it was a WIP and is now
complete)
Story must be archived on a public website (except Tolkien Online)
Author must approve of the nomination.

And what category those stories fall in will be determined first by the
author and second by the Staff. Staff will only move stories if 1) the
present category is not viable or 2) the subcategory fits the requirement to
be a main category, or 3) the author requests it.

Those statements will be the revised FAQ.

.Yes, I see and I completely agree.
To discuss this I entered this point into the database ;-) And made the
suggestion above on how I think one could handle it with much flexibility.
But you are the expert for this handling :-)

Thanks!

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3118

Re: Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 13, 2004 - 19:20:51 Topic ID# 3103
-----Original Message-----
From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 7:18 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions


>I don't agree. Whatever is nominated is nominated. If that means 50 Elves
fics and only 5 Hobbits fics (just a random example) then so be it. If more
Elves General stories are nominated than Elves/Romance well, fine. Or vice
versa. What's nominated is nominated and the only rules for nominated are:

>Story must not have been nominated before (unless it was a WIP and is now
complete)
Story must be archived on a public website (except Tolkien Online)
Author must approve of the nomination.

P.S. Not an NC-17


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3119

AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap (Marta's post) answer to Ainae Posted by elanor of aquitania December 14, 2004 - 4:24:04 Topic ID# 3119
> I still say easier to write a long comment for a long story.
> But there will
> very likely be more comments for short stories than for long
> ones. Volume
> makes up for the difference in length.

For me that sounds as
you agree that those stories are in different league
but you hope the votes will balance out
according to a larger number for short stories
and longer votes for long stories.

What I do not understand, why then one could
not put them into different categories.

Let compete the few long votes between themselves
and let the many short votes compete between themselves.

But in reality I disagree with this view.
I made the length of the vote according to the importance
the story had for me.
Many a short story got a long review from me.
The longest review by far was for a short story,
though this was by accidence as I had forgotten there is a cap
on the number of words accounting to points ;-)


In my experience, the long stories have not as good a speech
as many short stories.
As a good speech for me is the paramount feature
to make me an adorer, the longer stories have to have
very good plots or other merits to get my adoration ;-)

>
>
> > 3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
> > accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a
> shorter multi-
> > part piece, just because it will spend more time on the
> front page of
> > archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
> > season.
> >
> > I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
> > shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing.
> Even if they
> > do, the differences show that longer works require a
> different skill
> > set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
> > their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).
>
> >I think long stories will generate votes from readers who
> have read them
> outside of reading season. At least I found no time to read
> new long stories
> during reading time. I had enough to do to reread those
> already known to me
> and to comment them (and then missing to vote on Dwim's story makes me
> really sad, sigh) .
>
> I disagree. I read several long stories both in Reading Season and in
> Voting Season. During the off-season, I'm lucky to get
> anything read. And
> when I do, it's usually the shorter stories. Hey, I've got
> 590 completed
> LOTR stories in my infamous spreadsheet. Those are stories
> I'd like to
> read. (I joked with Dwimordene last night that we should require all
> nominations to be storeis in my spreadsheet...so I could weed
> it down!) The
> 1 chapter ones disappear (I delete them once they are read) a
> lot faster
> than the 24 chapter ones. The awards motivated me to read a
> lot of LOTR
> stories. I read more during Voting Season alone that I
> probably had all
> year before. And some of them were very long indeed. I
> Return by Coriel,
> for example.
>
> So I believe the awards motivates NEW readers to read the
> long ones. It's
> not just those who already know the story. I had never heard
> of I Return
> before. Perchance to Dream had been in my spreadsheet for
> quite some time.
> (Hallelujah it's gone!--You don't even want to know the
> number WIPs I'm
> tracking....Actually, the number of Completed stories is
> more. I have 605
> WIPs I'm tracking...in four or five fandoms. The 590
> completeds were LOTR
> alone. Total there is 705! Scary, isn't it?) But I'd never
> gotten around to
> reading it.

I admire your zeal :-)
I normally need to have at least a Faramir lurking around in the story
to goad me into the plot.

So if there is an elven story which makes me go through it
the story has to have merits IMO. I vote accordingly.

Nevertheless, I think long stories scare the voters,
see the discussion of reading all chapters of a WIP.
Therefore I think still the long stories should have their own segment.
Let us agree to disagree on this point ;-)
It is your project, it is your decision.

<much snipping>

> >Yet, after 5 years you could add another award category:
> >"stories which thrive in the fan-community" ;-)
>
> No, because that WILL smack of elitism. And while I'd love to think
> Oswiecim would blow any other DS9 story out of the water in
> such a category,
> it would hurt me greatly if it didn't. Because let's face it, people
> replace old memories with new ones. Hey, Oswiecim MIGHT get
> remembered (my
> friend's comment shows it does and I do still get similar
> comments now and
> then) but it also MIGHT NOT. And then I'd feel very bad indeed.

Hmm, I cannot deeply empathize with these feeling. I have no such stories.

And for me this is not elitism, for me awards are recommendations.
Thus, the feature of 'longstanding' admiration for stories
is an additional recommendation. Nothing more in it.

>
> I'm one who also values the competition side of the awards,
> though it is
> secondary. I WANT to win. I love feedback even when I
> don't, but I do love
> to win. And it hurt when I didn't have a story in the
> running for ASC two
> or three years ago (and very likely this year considerint the
> deadline is
> Feb. 1st.) It hurt when I got so few comments for the third
> part of my
> trilogy. My own fault really. It was posted two years after
> the second
> part. Some of my readers of the first part had faded away by then....
>
> And I've NEVER won Best DS9 Author. Not even Oswiecim's
> year. Saddens me,
> to be honest.
>
> So, no, I don't want to make an elitist award.

OK. OK. Let's drop this idea.
Though I had not the feeling of invoking elitism.
My fault.

>
> >I have no further ideas to add concerning the number of
> words, I only would
> like to see the long stories in another league.
>
> See above. Still against it. Scared to put it in a poll,
> too. Especially
> when only a small fraction of our membership is participating
> in the polls.
> HINT HINT You can keep trying to convince me, but I'm not there yet.

OK, then I try again ;-)
Long stories are what I personally admire.
Short stories are for me training, honing the skills, working with speech
and plots.

But long stories are about world building, character development,
extensive descriptions, long conversations.
IMO that needs much more writer's skills to hold the readers interest.
There is many a long story were I drop out due to fatigue
of reading again the same and the same.
Naturally I am thankful for the writer to share her story.
Nevertheless, I search for the next story which can hold me
enthralled. This feature of holding me interested is much
easier to achieve by a short story.

Therefore, these two types of stories are DIFFERENT for me.
I think, you agree, that they are different.
But if they are different, then IMO they should compete
between themselves.

>
> Oh, and to Marta's point:
> I was talking about this to Dwim, and I know I've posted it
> here before.
> Long and short do have the same elements and they have their
> own advantages
> and disadvantages.

> It's easier to find a good plot that
> voers (covers ?) a longer
> period of time. Finding a whole plot that takes place in 3
> days or less is
> not as easy. Thus novels are easier.

But the length of time covered is not the origin of the novel length IMO.
If you write a psychological piece you can write a whole book
out of the thoughts of one day.

And you can write a short story built of scenes covering years
and years.

> But filling a novel is
> hard. Not
> every day of those two years is exciting. So you have some
> filler. But
> it's got to be usefull filler..... No need for filler with
> short stories. So
> short stories are easier.

I agree about filler, but I think authors of short stories
work often much harder on the speech and the plot lines.
Many a long story is rather rambling.
IMO it is not so difficult to write long story
but to write a good long story.

I think it is easier to write a good short story.

>
> If anybody asks me which are harder, they get that answer.
> In a nutshell:
> both.
>
> I do feel novels will be DISADVANTAGED if they run in their
> own category. I
> think more people will be able to walk right by them,
> thinking, I'll get to
> that subcategory if I have time. Which they won't. I think
> they have a
> better chance of being read if they are together. And we
> don't have to try
> and figure where to make the breaking line.

You will have expected that I am inclined to disagree ;-)
There is not a better chance. As soon as the reader sees
the amount of chapters she will decide if to try the first pages
or not.

If she tries and gets hooked good for the story.
But if she rejects because of the amount of time involved
than it is the same if they are in their own compartment.

As reader's time is the most important issue IMO
you gain nothing by concealing the length.

I personally prefer long stories. I only have the problem
to find the good ones. For this the awards are a good marker.

This time I knew some of the long stories and I knew
which had me enthralled so I could decide faster which ones
I had to reread for comments.
Next time I believe I have to proceed as you and test much more
long stories.


> > > If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
> > > it's not
> > > good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> > > recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
> > comment for
> > > the author.
> >
> > That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
> > glad to have it clarified.
>
> >Hmm, I see it still as recommendations. This is what will
> appear in the
> web.
> This is what readers will see when they search for
> recommended stories.
> I will distribute the link to give hints on recommended
> stories if asked.
>
> That's fine. But my main purpose for putting them up there was for the
> authors. Not all of them are members here. I want them to
> be able to save
> off those comments and keep them. Hey, if anyone wants to read all my
> Oswiecim comments to decide if they want to read it, I'll
> gladly e-mail them
> to you. ;-) But I'm glad the feedbackers sent the feedback
> to me. And
> that's they way I see ff.net reviews too. It's one reason
> I've not liked
> the chaptering feature when it was added. It turned reviews
> into mostly
> post-more-encouragements rather than a review of the story.

I completely agree concerning the chaptering feature,
but on the other hand most authors seem to crave
for such encouragement. Thus, for the majority
of authors this feature is just right.

> You might find
> a mediocre Mary-Sue 20, chapter story with 300 reviews.
> Oswiecim has only
> 54. Which is the better story?

The one with the good reviews concerning plots and speech ;-)
The one with comments like "OH my god, please write more of this."
will most probably be a bit less satisfying.

Are my thoughts elitism ?

>
> But I digress. I want our comments to be reviews. That means that
> chapter-by-chapter comments won't be allowed next year
> either. That does
> give longer stories an advantage. If you write just two
> sentences (even of
> the same length) per chapter for two stories, one 2 chapters
> and the other
> 10, which will have the higher point count? Review the whole story.
>
> >For me the recommendation part is at least as important as
> > the feedback to
> > the authors. What are five feedbacks in comparison to what
> > the authors get
> > in fanfiction.net or in the forums?
>
> You'd be surprised. Sometimes, because the feedbacker knows
> it's for the
> awards they write more for the comment than they would for
> the author.

You see ;-)

> It's
> like writing a rewiew of a book that's goint to be read by newspaper
> readers, though it's addressed to the author.

I completely agree, this is my point :-)

> And, because
> ff.net may not
> have gotten the reader to read that particular story, the
> awards may. Story
> A may be so buried in ff.net that Reader B never finds it.
> But they find it
> in the awards and love it. They write a comment. Now Story
> A's author has
> feedback from Read B that she never had before.
>
> Remember that I commented on nearly 300 stories and authors
> this year. I
> can promise you I didn't read them all beforehand. And
> sometimes when I
> did, I didn't leave a review at ff.net just because I was in
> a hurry or
> whatever.
>
> And! The MEFAs are positive feedback. Negative and even constructive
> criticism goes against the voter here because it might get an
> unfavored
> story an award. So here it's ALL encouragement.

I still completely agree !

>
> >But clearly stated recommendations with small excerpts of
> >the story to get
> >a feeling for the writing style is something I would really
> >very much like
> >to see as a reader before I select a story.
>
> They can click the link to get a feeling of the writing style.

Yes, they can. But on the other hand they probably prefer
to read another reader's reaction beforehand.
For that the backsides of the books are used ;-)
Often, only if this hooks the book will be rummaged.
And only if the rummage hooks the book will be bought.

So I still do not see that the reviews to the authors
are more important than the recommendation issue.
The author WILL get her review anyhow
via MEFAwards.

But the recommendation is what makes MEFAwards
outstanding for the community IMO.
A banner an author gets also from Mithril awards.
The review itself is a very very fine feature
but a very private affair.
But the nomination and recommendation is
what will spread the story's fame in the internet
as well as the banner.
Of these three features
nomination, recommendation, banner,
to my knowledge the recommendation
is the distinctive feature of MEFAwards.
Therefore it is so important that you
created the respective web page!

These are my personal feelings.

>
>
> <snipping>
>
> > >>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
> >
>
> > > I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
> > > distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
> > > finished epics.
>
> >I do not rescind my earlier words,
> > I still see no difference between WIP and completed story.
>
> There is a BIG one. For one thing, they're unfinished. For
> another, you cut
> the potential reader population when you bring up a WIP.

OK, then either allow or forbid WIPs.
If you allow them then the voters should have
to treat them alike to complete stories.
Again my very personal opinion.

>
> >For me they are not in different leagues A and B with
> > respect to voting on
> > all the chapters written.
> > But I do bow to the majority and especially the MEFA Admin :-)
>
> Thanks. But the issue isn't closed or decided yet. In fact, Dwim, was
> against it when I spoke to her on the phone. Perhaps she'll
> find the time
> to post her reasons why here soon.
>
> Oh, by the by, I want to end the Post Mortem when December
> ends. With the
> exception of categories. We'll do those (which ones stay,
> which ones get
> added, different award titles, etc.) in January. Okay?
>


All OK with me :-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3120

Re: Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions Posted by Naresha December 14, 2004 - 4:33:57 Topic ID# 3103
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
wrote:
---------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania
[mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:51 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem recap: more
omments in the database




> > Concerning banners, I know you prefer
> > artistical variation, but I am a person who
> > prefers a stringent categorisation as well as

> > a standard design in which only the pictures
> > vary ;-) (I have scientifical mind, I studied
> > physics. Moreover, I think that artists can
> > work also within standard designs. I even
> > would prefer the text not to obscure the
> > picture.) I am in favour of corporate design
> > to permit an instant recognition of
MEFAwards.
> > Many banners reminded me of icons for
> > websites.
>
> Well, sorry but I just don't agree. I'm a
left-> brained creative person. Which may sound
like > an oxymoron, but there you have it. Take
a
> look at some of the banners I submitted this
> year. Some had text on the pics, some had text
> beside it. They had different fonts, different
> colors for text, based on the pictures.
> Different sizes though most were similar
> rectangles.


I must agree with Ainae here. I too am a
creative person too - hence why I write. This is
a fanfic contest - it is all about creativity and
imagination. It is a very left-brained thing
indeed. So I don't see why we shouldn't have
some very artistic banners as well! I'd be much
prouder displaying something arty on my website
than something more "corporate". I like the fact
that all the banners are different - all the
awards are for different things, different
genres, different styles of writing etc. So why
should all the banners look the same?

Resha.

=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3121

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions (Naresh Posted by elanor of aquitania December 14, 2004 - 7:30:51 Topic ID# 3103
Naresha wrote:
> I must agree with Ainae here. I too am a
> creative person too - hence why I write. This is
> a fanfic contest - it is all about creativity and
> imagination. It is a very left-brained thing
> indeed. So I don't see why we shouldn't have
> some very artistic banners as well! I'd be much
> prouder displaying something arty on my website
> than something more "corporate". I like the fact
> that all the banners are different - all the
> awards are for different things, different
> genres, different styles of writing etc. So why
> should all the banners look the same?
>
> Resha.

Hi Resha,
you see I collect for instance LoTR music videos.
There I often instantly see
which award was awarded for what.
It is simply easier and looks better IMO.

Examples
http://www.geocities.com/hp_lotrmusicvids/awardlenna.html
http://www.geocities.com/hp_lotrmusicvids/awarddi.html
http://www.geocities.com/hp_lotrmusicvids/awardothers.html

in the first and second page you see below the banners
which make a good advertisement
those banners
which are not so easily distinguishable.
Do you see how the vid artists prefer the
easily recognizable awards?

The same in the third example.
Only one banner is easily recognizable.
You will see those arbitrary banners
again in my forth example.
Personal view ;-)

Those banners which look very different for each award
and variable, for me they clog the page.

Example:
http://www.stykera.com/hm/karl/musicvids/index3.htm

Here two banners are always recognizable,
I know they make good recommendations
"Blade's choice" and "Music Video Award".
When I see those I know I should look at these vids.

[I agree, that there is not enough variance in those,
but I would go for something in the middle
more like the "Lord of the Rings Music Video Awards"
of the first three examples.
Some Standard surrounding and artistry in a picture.]

Then there are large variety of banners
which give me no more of information
than that this vid got a banner.
This is better than no information, for sure,
I will look at the precis and then perhaps at the vid.

But don't you have the feeling that all these banners
look more like the icon for a vid?
Or like the entry point for a website?
Often you cannot identify who made the award.
That for me is really bad politics, bad advertisement.

Let me say I painted in my youth and I wanted
to study painting, I was not enduring enough in this wish
and I wanted to earn money to provide for a family.
Thus, my "artistry" now has shrunk to try to write
LoTR-fics :-)

So I understand your feelings about beautiful banners.
But I think more about what to achieve with a banner
for MEFAwards.

I really see no advertising effect for MEFAs
in such a variety of banners with texts
often obscured by the picture.

For me the banner should also lure people to
the MEFA web site, not only decorate the web page
of the author. If there are so different banners
as for "show your quality"
this simply looks unprofessional IMO.

This is not bad in itself, we ARE amateurs.
But I think one could improve the look and feel
of the MEFA banners.

But you are the artists, so if you feel that a standard format
impedes your creativity (I feel no such impediment,
I just feel not lured to sacrifice the time needed to create a banner,
[though I created my own wallpapers for my PC]
I would ere like to try to create a music vid ;-)
but who knows maybe next time I will perhaps participate)
then you for sure should create them in the same form
next time.

Nevertheless, I saw quite a row of banners
created already this time
which for me would transport a MEFA corporate identity
and would provide advertising effects:
I cannot show them to you now
because the website gabrielle.sytes.net seems to be down.

Best wishes Elanor

P.S. With respect to the time needed to create a banner,
I think you would ere get more participants if you give them
a standard to work with. Again, my personal feeling.

Msg# 3122

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions (Na Posted by Naresha December 14, 2004 - 8:37:25 Topic ID# 3103
--- elanor of aquitania <elanor@codacode.net>
wrote:

---------------------------------
Naresha wrote:
> I must agree with Ainae here. I too am a
> creative person too - hence why I write. This
is
> a fanfic contest - it is all about creativity
and
> imagination. It is a very left-brained thing
> indeed. So I don't see why we shouldn't have
> some very artistic banners as well! I'd be
much
> prouder displaying something arty on my website
> than something more "corporate". I like the
fact
> that all the banners are different - all the
> awards are for different things, different
> genres, different styles of writing etc. So
why
> should all the banners look the same?
>
> Resha.

> Hi Resha,
> you see I collect for instance LoTR music
> videos. There I often instantly see which award
> was awarded for what. It is simply easier and
> looks better IMO.

> Examples
http://www.geocities.com/hp_lotrmusicvids/awardlenna.html
http://www.geocities.com/hp_lotrmusicvids/awarddi.html
http://www.geocities.com/hp_lotrmusicvids/awardothers.html
>
> in the first and second page you see below the
> banners which make a good advertisement
> those banners which are not so easily
> distinguishable. Do you see how the vid artists
> prefer the easily recognizable awards?

> The same in the third example. Only one banner
> is easily recognizable. You will see those
> arbitrary banners again in my forth example.
> Personal view ;-)

Okay - cant get onto the first and second pages
atm (blinking bandwidth!!!) But I looked at the
third. I can see what you mean, but I personally
like what the MEFAs have as well. For me, it
does have simplicity! i has the little bar
across the bottom. And I have an awards page
which I explain all my awards and where they're
from and I know a lot of others that do the same!

> Those banners which look very different for
> each award and variable, for me they clog the
> page.

> Example:
http://www.stykera.com/hm/karl/musicvids/index3.htm

I must agree - I don't like these! They don't
even look like banners. They look more like
buttons.


> Here two banners are always recognizable,
> I know they make good recommendations
> "Blade's choice" and "Music Video Award".
> When I see those I know I should look at these
> vids.

For me, I don't go on reccommendations. I choose
what I want to read/view. I might go look closer
at them, but I don't always go with it. Just
because others think they're award worthy doesnt
mean I necessarily do.

[I agree, that there is not enough variance in
those, but I would go for something in the middle

more like the "Lord of the Rings Music Video
Awards" of the first three examples.
Some Standard surrounding and artistry in a
picture.]

Then there are large variety of banners
which give me no more of information
than that this vid got a banner.
This is better than no information, for sure,
I will look at the precis and then perhaps at the
vid.

But don't you have the feeling that all these
banners
look more like the icon for a vid?
Or like the entry point for a website?
Often you cannot identify who made the award.
That for me is really bad politics, bad
advertisement.


So I understand your feelings about beautiful
banners. But I think more about what to achieve
with a banner for MEFAwards.

I really see no advertising effect for MEFAs
in such a variety of banners with texts often
obscured by the picture.

> For me the banner should also lure people to
> the MEFA web site, not only decorate the web
> page of the author. If there are so different
> banners as for "show your quality" this simply
> looks unprofessional IMO.

Personally, I think if we want to lure ppl to the
MEFA site we create advertising buttons/banners.
The awards banners are awards for the creativity
of the authors. They first function ISNT for
advertising. It is an award! Yes, it does have
some advertising appeal, but IMO, it's primary
function it to honour the writing of the author.

Anyway... There's my two cents again!

Resha

=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3123

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions (Na Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 14, 2004 - 10:19:23 Topic ID# 3103
-----Original Message-----
From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:37 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions
(Naresha's post about banners)


>Personally, I think if we want to lure ppl to the MEFA site we create
advertising buttons/banners.
The awards banners are awards for the creativity of the authors. They first
function ISNT for advertising. It is an award! Yes, it does have some
advertising appeal, but IMO, it's primary function it to honour the writing
of the author.

You beat me to it, Resha. I was just thinking that. Yes, we have
advertising banners and buttons. And Nomination buttons. No contest
involved. The first (advertising banners and buttons) are pretty standard.
There are only a few:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/buttons.html

The second (noninee buttons) have more variety. They do a bit of both.
They are a kudo to the nominees, but also a bit of advertisement.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/nombuttons.html

The Award Banners were that: Awards! And a contest in themselves. I'd
actually like to have a full-on FanArt contest, though that might be hard to
host (archive-wise). The present compromise is the banner contest. And it
actually opens up that "art" contest to those of us who didn't think we
could be fanartists. I can draw now and then, but not at the level of
Gonzai, especially when we're talking about people. But I could make screen
caps and make a banner. Thus I was suddenly able to enter an "art" contest.
Wow!

So these are meant to be creative first and foremost. They are an award to
the fanfiction winners. And they are the creative entries and winners of
the banner contests. They may lead others to the MEFAs (which is why we
want people who use them on their web sites to link back to us) but that is
a secondary feature. It's not just ad add for us. It's an award to be
proud of for the winners.

If we wanted it "corporate", I'd just make some standard ones across the
board. Take a look at my ASC award banners:

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/trek/stories/os1.html

The ASC one is the middle one. The other two are standard as well. No
contest needed to create them. I am proud to have those awards, but I like
this banner better as a prize:

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/lotr/stories/lure.html

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3124

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem: More discussion on suggestions (Na Posted by Naresha December 14, 2004 - 11:07:28 Topic ID# 3103
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
wrote:
---------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Naresha

<snip>

> The Award Banners were that: Awards! And a
> contest in themselves. I'd actually like to
> have a full-on FanArt contest, though that
> might be hard to host (archive-wise). The
> present compromise is the banner contest. And
> it actually opens up that "art" contest to
> those of us who didn't think we could be
> fanartists. I can draw now and then, but not
> at the level of Gonzai, especially when we're
> talking about people. But I could make screen
> caps and make a banner. Thus I was suddenly
> able to enter an "art" contest. Wow!

Yup... That's about what I can do too! Cept
without the occasional drawing ability! I tend
to jut mutilate the paper!


--Ainaechoiriel



=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3125

PM: Movieverse category, emails to winners Posted by Marta December 15, 2004 - 0:51:48 Topic ID# 3103
Ainae,

A while ago I mentioned in passing an idea I had for a new category:
movieverse, in the same genre as _The Hobbit_, _LotR_, and _The
Silmarillion_. The idea is, some fics make particularly good use of
movieverse. Shadow975's Boromir-and-Lurtz piece (the name escapes me)
and Suzene Campos's "A Different Kind of Sacrifice" are examples from
this years' awards. I think it would be very neat to have a category
where they could participate together. (I suggested Legolas, Haldir,
and Figwit as the respective categories, as the three characters whose
popularity at least I associate most with the movies - not to say that
the first two don't have significant roles in the books.)

Did you respond to this suggestion? If so, I think I must have missed
it, and I wanted to make sure it didn't slip past your radar (I made
the suggestion in the context of a much longer email on categories).

Also, I was talking with one of this years' awards a while ago and
pointed out that theawards were over, and she had received a few
comments. She was thrilled - but she didn't know it was finished, let
alone that comments were available at the website. Would it be a good
idea to send out a mass email after the awards close next year,
something like:

*****

Hello [Author],

Thank you for your participation in the Middle-earth Fanfiction
Awards. As you may or may not know, the contest results have been
announced. One or more of your pieces have received feedback; if you
like, you can view it at [url].

If you won an award, banners are also available at [url].

Regardless, thank you for your contribution to the fandom. We look
forward to seeing more of your work in the future - hopefully in the
context of next year's MEFAs.

Sincerely,
The MEFA Admins
*****

Alternately (or perhaps in addition to such an email), we could set up
an announcements Yahoo group and/or LJ community?

Marta

Msg# 3126

MEFA banners and ? website gabrielle.sytes.net Posted by elanor of aquitania December 15, 2004 - 5:08:10 Topic ID# 3126
> You beat me to it, Resha. I was just thinking that. Yes, we have
> advertising banners and buttons. And Nomination buttons. No contest
> involved. The first (advertising banners and buttons) are
> pretty standard.
> There are only a few:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/buttons.html

Hi Ainae,
thank you for this info.
I had forgotten about this.

Please see the following only as musings.
I do not want to belittle any of your efforts.
I think, what you created has enormous merits
and is a very good thing for Tolkien fanfiction.

What I muse about is only how one could enhance
the impact of MEFAwards even further.

I think Marta's idea for a mass e-mail announcement
of the award closure is a very good idea.

Now to the banners:
On my TFT-screen the lower part of the text
written into the landscape (Fanfiction Award)
is nearly unreadable.

Probably it would work better if the text colour
were white or a very light colour,
especially on the landscape.

And, on the Legolas banner the text is too small IMO.

I have still the same problem as before,
the banners look not like an award banner
or like an banner depicting an award.

Thus, I ask, would it not be a good thing
to create an additional banner
with clear allusions to an award contest
in the picture ?


Anyhow, who will use this banner?
I think, only one who makes an extra-link to
the MEFAwards web site.

The larger advertising effect is thus nevertheless
through the award banners which will appear
together with the stories.

>
> The second (noninee buttons) have more variety. They do a
> bit of both.
> They are a kudo to the nominees, but also a bit of advertisement.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/nombuttons.html
>

I just looked on them. An impressive number!
And I saw that anyone can send you new ones.
Good idea.

On my screen many of the texts are not readable very well
due to the smallness in combination with the fancy script types.

The one best working for me is first line, last one.
Still even this suggests (aside of the text)
not an award-contest to me
but is a banner which can depict many things
(again aside of the text).

> The Award Banners were that: Awards! And a contest in themselves. I'd
> actually like to have a full-on FanArt contest, though that
> might be hard to
> host (archive-wise). The present compromise is the banner
> contest. And it
> actually opens up that "art" contest to those of us who
> didn't think we
> could be fanartists. I can draw now and then, but not at the level of
> Gonzai, especially when we're talking about people. But I
> could make screen
> caps and make a banner. Thus I was suddenly able to enter an
> "art" contest.
> Wow!

I probably can simply not empathize the impediment
you feel if you have to adjust your artistry to a standard.
For me this would be an incentive,
for the most of you it would dampen your enthusiasm.

I will accept this, but I wanted to voice my suggestions nevertheless
:-)

>
> So these are meant to be creative first and foremost. They
> are an award to
> the fanfiction winners. And they are the creative entries
> and winners of
> the banner contests. They may lead others to the MEFAs
> (which is why we
> want people who use them on their web sites to link back to
> us) but that is
> a secondary feature. It's not just ad add for us. It's an
> award to be
> proud of for the winners.

I certainly understand what you want to achieve
with artistic banners as gems for the authors.

Yet, I have a very rational and probably cold mind,
thus I think on the practical application of the award banner ;-)
which has for me more importance.
Artistry concerning banners
is for me achieved through the most effective banner ;-)

>
> If we wanted it "corporate", I'd just make some standard ones
> across the
> board. Take a look at my ASC award banners:
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/trek/stories/os1.html


I cannot connect to this site.
Maybe I have a firewall problem?
I allowed browser identification and logging of visited pages.
Have I to allow more?

Or is this server down?

>
> The ASC one is the middle one. The other two are standard as
> well. No
> contest needed to create them. I am proud to have those
> awards, but I like
> this banner better as a prize:
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/lotr/stories/lure.html
>

:-( see above, unfortunately I cannot see this banner

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3127

Re: PM: Movieverse category, emails to winners Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 15, 2004 - 8:53:18 Topic ID# 3103
-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:52 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: Movieverse category, emails to winners



>A while ago I mentioned in passing an idea I had for a new category:
movieverse, in the same genre as _The Hobbit_, _LotR_, and _The
Silmarillion_. The idea is, some fics make particularly good use of
movieverse.

I think I did respond to it once, though I think I still have a post of
yours marked for followup.

> Shadow975's Boromir-and-Lurtz piece (the name escapes me) and Suzene
Campos's "A Different Kind of Sacrifice" are examples from this years'
awards. I think it would be very neat to have a category where they could
participate together. (I suggested Legolas, Haldir, and Figwit as the
respective categories, as the three characters whose popularity at least I
associate most with the movies - not to say that the first two don't have
significant roles in the books.)

The problem I see with it is that it could have as many subcategories as we
have main categories and subcategories of other categories combined. What I
mean is there are movieverse stories that fit these categories: Men, Elves,
Hobbits, Rohan, Gondor, Humor, Adventure, Drama, Romance, Crossover, Horror,
Mystery, and of course LOTR. There are also Drabbles, Vignettes, particular
romance/pairings, etc.

If we look at it from another view, it could be possible to have movie-verse
as a subcategory to the other categories so long as it was viable.

And then there's the question of the splices. Splices? Both movie and
book. Take my Myth and Memory. Certainly some of the scenes came from the
movie (the warg battle, Elves at Helm's Deep), but much of how I
characterized Legolas was from the book. I spliced Movie!Legolas and
Book!Legolas together. I know others have done the same, combining both
mediums.

>Did you respond to this suggestion? If so, I think I must have missed it,
and I wanted to make sure it didn't slip past your radar (I made the
suggestion in the context of a much longer email on categories).

Do put it in the database. My memory is not reliable and my inbox gets very
full.

>Also, I was talking with one of this years' awards a while ago and pointed
out that theawards were over, and she had received a few comments. She was
thrilled - but she didn't know it was finished, let alone that comments were
available at the website. Would it be a good idea to send out a mass email
after the awards close next year, something like:

(Snipped the letter)

Yes, it would be good. And I'd actually like to contact the winners
personally. It just seemed like such a big task and, to be honest, I was
tired.

If Icome up with a form letter (just fill in the award and the story that
won it, etc.), can I get some volunteers to help me send notices to winners?
If not, I might get a mail merge together.

I can probably do an all-authors e-mail just to let them know the awards are
finished. Mind if I plagiarize your letter below?

>Alternately (or perhaps in addition to such an email), we could set up an
announcements Yahoo group and/or LJ community?

That would be great, but I'd need volunteers again, such as our PR Reps.
There is a database of links, some of which are sites, some of which are
YahooGroups. I posted to HA (which catches a lot of people, but I know it
doesn't catch everyone). Especially if you are a member of a related
fanfiction group, please do pass the word along.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3128

Re: MEFA banners and ? website gabrielle.sytes.net Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 15, 2004 - 9:46:10 Topic ID# 3126
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:06 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] MEFA banners and ? website gabrielle.sytes.net

>Hi Ainae,
thank you for this info.
I had forgotten about this.

>Please see the following only as musings.
I do not want to belittle any of your efforts.
I think, what you created has enormous merits and is a very good thing for
Tolkien fanfiction.

Okay, thanks

>What I muse about is only how one could enhance the impact of MEFAwards
even further.
>I think Marta's idea for a mass e-mail announcement of the award closure is
a very good idea.

Me, too. Wanna help?

>Now to the banners:
On my TFT-screen the lower part of the text written into the landscape
(Fanfiction Award) is nearly unreadable.

>Probably it would work better if the text colour were white or a very light
colour, especially on the landscape.

I agree it's a bit hard to read. I think I played around with various colors
and they just didn't look good with the pic. I can certainly try playing
around with them somemore.

>And, on the Legolas banner the text is too small IMO.

I think I could expand them a bit.

And some of you may be asking why those particular pics? Because I am a
hopeless Legolas fan and there is no The Legolas Thranduilion Award at this
time. Thus he will represent ALL the MEFAs!

>I have still the same problem as before, the banners look not like an award
banner or like an banner depicting an award.

Take a look at other contests' and websites' banners. Many of them utilize
screenshots with words. Some do, some don't. I like some that do and some
that don't. But as these are my awards, I will make a banner as I like it,
and it will feature Legolas to feed my inner fangirl. (If we can come up
with Legolas Thranduilion Award, I *might* feel like opening that up a
bit.)

>Thus, I ask, would it not be a good thing to create an additional banner
with clear allusions to an award contest in the picture ?

See above why Legolas is in the picture. But if you'd like to create banner
with a more corporate design, let's see it.

>Anyhow, who will use this banner?
I think, only one who makes an extra-link to the MEFAwards web site.

Yes, on the sites we are affiliated with, they put a link or banner (of
their choosing) to us, as we have put one to them.

>The larger advertising effect is thus nevertheless through the award
banners which will appear together with the stories.

True tehre will likely be more Award banners out there than ad-type MEFA
banners, but that won't change my mind about the Award banners.

> The second (noninee buttons) have more variety. They do a bit of
> both.
> They are a kudo to the nominees, but also a bit of advertisement.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/nombuttons.html
>

>I just looked on them. An impressive number!
And I saw that anyone can send you new ones.
Good idea.

Yep, nominees can choose which one they want to use. As they are small, we
can offer up lots of them.

>On my screen many of the texts are not readable very well due to the
smallness in combination with the fancy script types.

They are small on purpose. I can easily read all but 6. Yes, the first one
has the same problem as the MEFA banners. Hard to read the black in the
landscape. The other five are the last five. All of the others though,
pretty much stay in the size guidelines (with few exceptions if any) and are
legible.

And this is moot anyway, as I see they are 2004 buttons. We'll need new
ones for 2005.

>The one best working for me is first line, last one.

Really? My favorite is the fourth one on the second line, with the hand
writing MEFA Nominee.

>Still even this suggests (aside of the text) not an award-contest to me but
is a banner which can depict many things (again aside of the text).

So? Nominee tells me it's a nomination fo rsomething. MEFA does stand for
Middle-Eath Fanfiction Awards. And the buttons are too small to write that
out. If someone is curious, they can search MEFA or follow the link if the
author has included a link. The basic necessary information is there.
That's all a nominee button needs.

Bottom line: We will need new buttons for 2005. You, as well as any member,
are free to make some however you like. They will still be small and have
just the basic info: 2005, MEFA, and Nominee

>I probably can simply not empathize the impediment you feel if you have to
adjust your artistry to a standard.
For me this would be an incentive,
for the most of you it would dampen your enthusiasm.

>I will accept this, but I wanted to voice my suggestions nevertheless
:-)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

>I certainly understand what you want to achieve with artistic banners as
gems for the authors.

Yet, I have a very rational and probably cold mind, thus I think on the
practical application of the award banner ;-) which has for me more
importance.
Artistry concerning banners
is for me achieved through the most effective banner ;-)

Different views. Let's rest on a bit of Star Trek philosophy. Vulcan, in
fact: IDIC: Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/trek/stories/os1.html

>I cannot connect to this site.
Maybe I have a firewall problem?
I allowed browser identification and logging of visited pages.
Have I to allow more?

>Or is this server down?

Quite possible. Let me tell you the saga of my sites:

Most of my sites (not the main mefa site) are housed on Stormpages.com.
Recently (maybe two weeks ago) I noticed that my lotr page wouldn't come up.
I went to my Trek page, and it had reverted back to a few years ago. (See
the "Updated" notes to the bottom of the page:
http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/trek) I thought that was odd. I checked
my Message Board. New messages were gone. Old messages that I had deleted
two years ago had reappeared. I tried logging in so I could reupload the
many pages I'd have to reupload. I get page not found. It would appear
that Stormpages.com is dead.

So, I went and fixed all my external links for my sites (on my hard drive),
so that they pointed to gabrielle.sytes.net. That is a domain that points
to my comptuer named DS9.

DS9 has been having a lot of fun recently. You see, I'm converting a bunch
of very large movie files from .avi to .mpg. And the only one of my
computers that can do it is DS9. Because DS9 has Windows 2000 and a Windows
media Player Version that can play .avi's. If it can't play 'em, it can't
convert 'em.

These movies files are 400+ MB by the time they're done.

As you can imagine, DS9 is a bit taxed. It has been rebooting on me now and
then. So when it reboots and I am not there to log it back in, it comes up
unavailable.

Rest assured, I will not be converting movies forever. (Though I will for
awhile. These things take 5 hours or more apiece!). And this is the
gateway computer for connecting to my home computers remotely. Thus I
connect to it every morning when I get to work. So it won't be down for
long, if it's down.

Ironically, DS9 is still my most stable computer for being a web server.
Starbase, my XP machine likes to reboot itself regularly. Or it will
pretend it can't reach the network anymore (even when I'm still remotely
connected to it via the internet) and so I have to reboot it myself.
Starfleetcmd, my NT Server is stable, but it doesn't want to play nice with
the web server software. I can see it locally on my network but not
externally. And besides, it's where those movie files live. DS9 may be
doing the work, but the files reside on the very large hard drive in the NT
Server. And so it's been rebooting itself now and then as well. (This one
doesn't need to be logged in for the fiels to be available though. Just
booted.)

Thus, the sage of my sites.

> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/lotr/stories/lure.html
>

:-( see above, unfortunately I cannot see this banner

You should be able to now.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3129

Re: website gabrielle.sytes.net Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 15, 2004 - 9:54:13 Topic ID# 3129
Knock on wood. I know I forgot to do something....

Starfleetcmd has just rebooted from the strain. It should be back up in a
few minutes. If it isn't, that would mean it shut itself down. Which would
be very annoying as it is is my file server.

Ah, just checked and it's back. My sites should be available again.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3130

Re: PM: Movieverse category, emails to winners Posted by Marta December 15, 2004 - 11:27:48 Topic ID# 3103
Hi Ainae,

> >A while ago I mentioned in passing an idea I had for a new
category:
> movieverse, in the same genre as _The Hobbit_, _LotR_, and _The
> Silmarillion_. The idea is, some fics make particularly good use of
> movieverse.
>
> I think I did respond to it once, though I think I still have a post
of
> yours marked for followup.
>

That's entirely possible. Much of this post-mort was during the tail
end of my semester, so I was busy with RL stuff. So it could be that
you replied and I didn't catch it. Or that I meant to reply later and
completely forgot about it in all the rush.

> > Shadow975's Boromir-and-Lurtz piece (the name escapes me) and
Suzene
> Campos's "A Different Kind of Sacrifice" are examples from this
years'
> awards. I think it would be very neat to have a category where they
could
> participate together. (I suggested Legolas, Haldir, and Figwit as
the
> respective categories, as the three characters whose popularity at
least I
> associate most with the movies - not to say that the first two don't
have
> significant roles in the books.)
>
> The problem I see with it is that it could have as many
subcategories as we
> have main categories and subcategories of other categories combined.
What I
> mean is there are movieverse stories that fit these categories: Men,
Elves,
> Hobbits, Rohan, Gondor, Humor, Adventure, Drama, Romance, Crossover,
Horror,
> Mystery, and of course LOTR. There are also Drabbles, Vignettes,
particular
> romance/pairings, etc.
>

Yes, that's certainly true - but I also think there's that potential
in any of the other channels. Drama has Hobbits, Men, Elves,
Silmarillion, LotR, etc. Ditto for any other category. If there are
enough stories to make a subcategory, that's all for the good. But I
think you only need to have the mandatory subcategories (drabble,
poetry, WIP, etc.) be mandatory - anything above and beyond that is
great, but only needs to happen if we have enough stories.

> If we look at it from another view, it could be possible to have
movie-verse
> as a subcategory to the other categories so long as it was viable.
>

I don't think you'd have very many of those. And I'm not talking about
stories that just happen to be set in the movieverse - I'm talking
about stories that are written in such a way to make good use of the
movieverse. Stories like those written for the HASA Movie Challenge.
These are stories that are defined, not by being drama or about
hobbits or whatever, but by engaging the source material - only in
this case it's the movies instead of one of the books.

> And then there's the question of the splices. Splices? Both movie
and
> book. Take my Myth and Memory. Certainly some of the scenes came
from the
> movie (the warg battle, Elves at Helm's Deep), but much of how I
> characterized Legolas was from the book. I spliced Movie!Legolas
and
> Book!Legolas together. I know others have done the same, combining
both
> mediums.
>

Sure. If they feel it's more one or the other, they're surely free to
put them either in movieverse or LotR (or whatever other book they fit
in). Or maybe it fits better in one of the other categories - drama,
or Rohan, or whatever. Pure movieverse stories, or splice stories for
that matter, don't *just* have to go in movieverse - no more than
stories set in _The Silmarillion_ have to go in the Silm category.

> >Did you respond to this suggestion? If so, I think I must have
missed it,
> and I wanted to make sure it didn't slip past your radar (I made the
> suggestion in the context of a much longer email on categories).
>
> Do put it in the database. My memory is not reliable and my inbox
gets very
> full.
>

I understand. And I've been awful about putting things in the database
- I don't think I've put anything in the database. But I'll get all my
suggestions in there.

> >Also, I was talking with one of this years' awards a while ago and
pointed
> out that theawards were over, and she had received a few comments.
She was
> thrilled - but she didn't know it was finished, let alone that
comments were
> available at the website. Would it be a good idea to send out a mass
email
> after the awards close next year, something like:
>
> (Snipped the letter)
>
> Yes, it would be good. And I'd actually like to contact the winners
> personally. It just seemed like such a big task and, to be honest,
I was
> tired.
>

Oh, I can understand that. You've done so much, I really feel bad
about suggesting more work for you, which is what this felt like, but
I thought it might be a good idea.

> If Icome up with a form letter (just fill in the award and the story
that
> won it, etc.), can I get some volunteers to help me send notices to
winners?
> If not, I might get a mail merge together.
>

I'm hesitant to volunteer for this kind of thing, especially before
the holidays. I could maybe do this after the new year, especially if
one or two other people were willing to split it with me.

> I can probably do an all-authors e-mail just to let them know the
awards are
> finished. Mind if I plagiarize your letter below?
>

Not at all. I wrote that in about three minutes, so feel free to take
whatever you like, tweak wherever you feel the need.

> >Alternately (or perhaps in addition to such an email), we could set
up an
> announcements Yahoo group and/or LJ community?
>
> That would be great, but I'd need volunteers again, such as our PR
Reps.

I'm familiar with Yahoo groups, and it wouldn't be that hard to do.
Just make a quick post, when a new season opens, or maybe a warning
post when a season is about to close. You could even set it up so that
only moderators could post, so that you'd only have to keep up with
discussion at one list. I don't know as much about LJs but I think it
could probably be set up the same way.

I'm not volunteering to handle it right now. Let's see how I'm doing
when we get to nominating season for next year. I don't like
volunteering this far in advance, as I'm never sure what I'll be
capable of several months from now. But I might be interested in
helping out this way.

Marta

Msg# 3131

AW: [MEFAwards] MEFA banners and mass e-mail announcement Posted by elanor of aquitania December 15, 2004 - 15:56:43 Topic ID# 3131
> >I think Marta's idea for a mass e-mail announcement of the
> award closure is
> a very good idea.
>
> Me, too. Wanna help?

I will if you write what I have to do.
Just filling in the e-mail addresses and send the standard mail?
Do you have list?

Or have I to search for the addresses?
Then I would quail.

> >On my screen many of the texts are not readable very well due to the
> > smallness in combination with the fancy script types.
>
> They are small on purpose. I can easily read all but 6.

My resolution is 1280x1024
I can read all except the last 6.
But I have to concentrate on reading.
The simpler the script the easier I can read it.
Thus, I prefer Arial.
(I'm not saying that I would use Arial for MEFA
only that I would use a very clear script type)

> >The one best working for me is first line, last one.
>
> Really? My favorite is the fourth one on the second line,
> with the hand
> writing MEFA Nominee.

A very special extraordinary button with a script type
which really needs some time to analyse ;-)
It is too original for me.

What I like is the allusion to Middle Earth writing.
It is also one of the few which uses a colour
which really agrees with me.
My favourite is Indian yellow.

But I think due to the unusual as well as tilted script
and the need to analyze first the picture
it works not so good as a banner.

> Bottom line: We will need new buttons for 2005. You, as well
> as any member,
> are free to make some however you like. They will still be
> small and have
> just the basic info: 2005, MEFA, and Nominee

Maybe I will some day, because I quibbled so much.
Then I will experience the difficulties of
realizing what I thought about.
... but not in near future.

I would like to look again at the award banners
as there were some which looked really good
to this quibbler here.

> Different views. Let's rest on a bit of Star Trek
> philosophy. Vulcan, in
> fact: IDIC: Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

I agree, as many opinions as there are minds.

> As you can imagine, DS9 is a bit taxed. It has been
> rebooting on me now and
> then. So when it reboots and I am not there to log it back
> in, it comes up
> unavailable.

Seems to be working again on movies.
I will wait till it comes up again :-)

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3132

Mail Merge and E-mail don't go together so well Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 15, 2004 - 16:08:43 Topic ID# 3132
Well, it worked. Sort of. It might actually have been Norton AntiVirus's
fault. It checks every e-mail as I send. So when I merged the e-mails,
half or more of them got "interrupted" and Norton told me to look for them
in my Sent Items and resend.

Great. Couldn't have left them in the Outbox where they are easily
identified as the ones that didn't go through. No, they looked just like
the others so I had to practically resend all of them!

Fun, fun. NOT.

Anyway, winning authors that I could reach were notified. Some of them
didn't have have complete e-mail addresses and some came back undeliverable.



--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3133

Shock of the century Posted by Tinni December 15, 2004 - 17:55:02 Topic ID# 3133
o_O When did this happen!

<snip>
Dear Tinni,



I'm sorry we didn't get this out sooner, but I'm happy to let you
know (if you haven't already heard) that you won an award in the
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards!



Your story, The Day the Sun Didn't Rise, won 3rd place in the
Drama/Poetry category, and is thus the winner of The Nimrodel and
Amroth Award.



Congratulations!



If you'd like to view the comments that your story received, please
go to this address:



http;//home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/comments.html.



Scroll down until you find your name and then click on the story
titles. (Click on your name to view your author comments.)



If you'd like to download your award banner, please go to this
address:



http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html



To get your banners, click the banner for your award. That will open
another page with the banners that have the category and prize
labeled. You may then right-click the banner for your category and
placement and save your banners to your hard drive. For example, if
you are the winner of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor Award for Men
Poetry, you will need to save men_2_poetry.jpg.



If you use that banner on your website, please link it to ours:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa



Congratulations again, and we hope you'll join us next year for the
2005 Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards!



--Ainaechoiriel

MEFA Admin and Founder
</snip>

Msg# 3134

Re: Shock of the century Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 15, 2004 - 22:56:32 Topic ID# 3133
November 15th, technically. ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@fanfiction.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:55 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Shock of the century



o_O When did this happen!

<snip>
Dear Tinni,



I'm sorry we didn't get this out sooner, but I'm happy to let you know (if
you haven't already heard) that you won an award in the Middle-Earth
Fanfiction Awards!



Your story, The Day the Sun Didn't Rise, won 3rd place in the
Drama/Poetry category, and is thus the winner of The Nimrodel and
Amroth Award.



Congratulations!



If you'd like to view the comments that your story received, please
go to this address:



http;//home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/comments.html.



Scroll down until you find your name and then click on the story
titles. (Click on your name to view your author comments.)



If you'd like to download your award banner, please go to this
address:



http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html



To get your banners, click the banner for your award. That will open
another page with the banners that have the category and prize
labeled. You may then right-click the banner for your category and
placement and save your banners to your hard drive. For example, if
you are the winner of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor Award for Men
Poetry, you will need to save men_2_poetry.jpg.



If you use that banner on your website, please link it to ours:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa



Congratulations again, and we hope you'll join us next year for the
2005 Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards!



--Ainaechoiriel

MEFA Admin and Founder
</snip>







Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3135

Re: Shock of the century Posted by Tinni December 15, 2004 - 23:39:10 Topic ID# 3133
Clearly I am far, far, far out of loop. :) Thanks to all who voted. -
Tinni

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> November 15th, technically. ;-)
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:55 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Shock of the century
>
>
>
> o_O When did this happen!
>
> <snip>
> Dear Tinni,
>
>
>
> I'm sorry we didn't get this out sooner, but I'm happy to let you
know (if
> you haven't already heard) that you won an award in the Middle-Earth
> Fanfiction Awards!
>
>
>
> Your story, The Day the Sun Didn't Rise, won 3rd place in the
> Drama/Poetry category, and is thus the winner of The Nimrodel and
> Amroth Award.
>
>
>
> Congratulations!
>
>
>
> If you'd like to view the comments that your story received, please
> go to this address:
>
>
>
> http;//home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/comments.html.
>
>
>
> Scroll down until you find your name and then click on the story
> titles. (Click on your name to view your author comments.)
>
>
>
> If you'd like to download your award banner, please go to this
> address:
>
>
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html
>
>
>
> To get your banners, click the banner for your award. That will
open
> another page with the banners that have the category and prize
> labeled. You may then right-click the banner for your category and
> placement and save your banners to your hard drive. For example, if
> you are the winner of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor Award for Men
> Poetry, you will need to save men_2_poetry.jpg.
>
>
>
> If you use that banner on your website, please link it to ours:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa
>
>
>
> Congratulations again, and we hope you'll join us next year for the
> 2005 Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards!
>
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>
> MEFA Admin and Founder
> </snip>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3136

Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear... Posted by John and Mel Knox December 16, 2004 - 7:50:28 Topic ID# 3054
Wow... gone for a week or two.... *grin* Well, you know, Ariel is a dear
friend of mine, and I estimate her stories (including this one) to be prime,
and would be neither offended nor upset to see the error corrected:) I have
to hope I would also feel this way if it were any one else, as I pretend to
be an adult:)

Perhaps more attention, an extra level of counting/double checking might be
advised for next year? Just to avoid the situation:)

SilverMoonLady


>From: "arielphf" <lgreenaw@kcnet.org>
>Reply-To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear...
>Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:52:52 -0000
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-Originating-IP: 164.156.110.102
>X-Sender: lgreenaw@kcnet.org
>Received: from n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.16]) by
>mc4-f31.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Mon, 13 Dec 2004
>13:02:16 -0800
>Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Dec
>2004 20:57:49 -0000
>Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13
>Dec 2004 20:57:49 -0000
>Received: (qmail 93365 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2004 20:54:03 -0000
>Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
>13 Dec 2004 20:54:03 -0000
>Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by
>mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2004 20:54:03 -0000
>Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Dec
>2004 20:52:53 -0000
>Received: from [66.218.67.172] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13
>Dec 2004 20:52:53 -0000
>X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEXrnK6br/vJXksInVpSXe8
>X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email
>X-Apparently-To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
>X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
>X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.20
>X-Yahoo-Profile: arielphf
>Mailing-List: list MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com; contact
>MEFAwards-owner@yahoogroups.com
>Delivered-To: mailing list MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>Precedence: bulk
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
>Return-Path:
>sentto-12538722-3109-1102971244-jkeffects=hotmail.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2004 21:02:16.0515 (UTC)
>FILETIME=[06C45130:01C4E157]
>
>
>Sorry for being so late in getting back to you on this. I tried
>replying as a non-member, but it apparently didn't go.
>
>Silvermoonlady is a dear friend and a very worthy author. I have no
>problem letting her keep the award. I am content knowing that my fic
>was in the running but I don't think it fair to take the award away
>from someone to whom it has already been given.
>
>Ariel
>
>--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
>wrote:
> >
> > Now the question is what do we do about it?
> >
> > We mistakenly gave SilvermoonLady the 3rd place Award for Hobbits
> > (General), when it should have gone to Ariel for "Of Dwarvish Ale
>and
> > the Fairer Sex."
> >
> > The lattter had 23 points while SilvermoonLady's had 21. Somehow
>we
> > overlooked it. Or rather, I did. Either way, I'm very sorry.
> >
> > So, of course, Ariel should go ahead and get the Thain award banner
> > for it. But what do we do about Silvermoon Lady? Do we tell her
>she
> > must give it up? Or do we let them both keep them? The latter
> > wouldn't really be fair because it tied with another story and the
> > other story wasn't mistakenly given 3rd place (because the tie was
> > broken).
> >
> > SilvermoonLady, Ariel (if you're out there?) What do you want to do?
> >
> > --Ainaechoiriel
> > MEFA Admin and Founder
> >
> > "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> > said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
> >
> > http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> > Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>

Msg# 3137

Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear... Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 16, 2004 - 10:12:32 Topic ID# 3054
We did. Sort of. I posted the Hobbit winners to the Staff group on the 13th.
No one caught the mistake.

On my part there's really no good excuse. I think I could have avoided it by
sorting the spraedsheet as I had done in other categories. I think I just
eyeballed this one. I had eyeballed others but fortunately, no more mistakes
have come to light. I used a color code on the individual cells to show
first, second, and third place. And somehow I overlooked 23 and saw the tie
for 21. I broke the tie according to the rules. I posted the results to
the Staff in the hopes that if I made any mistakes, we'd catch them. In
this case we didn't.

Next year, we hope to have a more electronic counting method, but of course,
we'll keep human backups, just in case.

You are welcome to keep the award banner, as Ariel has said she'd like to
share it and not take it away from you. So, officially, you are both down
as winners.

(Next year, we'll also be having Honorable Mentions for those very close to
third place, especially in tie situations.)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: John and Mel Knox [mailto:jkeffects@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 7:48 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Re: Awards Mistake. Oh dear...


Wow... gone for a week or two.... *grin* Well, you know, Ariel is a dear
friend of mine, and I estimate her stories (including this one) to be prime,
and would be neither offended nor upset to see the error corrected:) I have
to hope I would also feel this way if it were any one else, as I pretend to
be an adult:)

Perhaps more attention, an extra level of counting/double checking might be
advised for next year? Just to avoid the situation:)

SilverMoonLady

Msg# 3138

PM: Is barring of NC17 stories debatable? Posted by Marta December 16, 2004 - 10:56:04 Topic ID# 3138
Hi Ainae,

I know this year we didn't allow NC17 stories to compete. I think
there's good reasons to consider changing that, but before I presented
them I wanted to ask: is this one of those topics that's not open for
discussion? If so, I'll accept it; if not, I'll present my reasons for
why I think they maybe should be allowed.

Marta

Msg# 3139

Re: PM: Is barring of NC17 stories debatable? Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 16, 2004 - 11:53:11 Topic ID# 3138
If we allowed NC-17 stories, we'd probably have to make this an adult
Yahoo-Group and I chose not to do that.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:55 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: Is barring of NC17 stories debatable?



Hi Ainae,

I know this year we didn't allow NC17 stories to compete. I think there's
good reasons to consider changing that, but before I presented them I wanted
to ask: is this one of those topics that's not open for discussion? If so,
I'll accept it; if not, I'll present my reasons for why I think they maybe
should be allowed.

Marta





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3140

Re: PM: Is barring of NC17 stories debatable? Posted by Marta December 16, 2004 - 12:00:33 Topic ID# 3138
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
> If we allowed NC-17 stories, we'd probably have to make this an
adult
> Yahoo-Group and I chose not to do that.
>

I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the
stories here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to
adult material, but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long
as you don't post an exact link. You can post a description such as
"available in HASA Beta under the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the
story is, and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't
be very hard if they have the title and author's name

Marta

Msg# 3141

Re: NC-17 stories? Posted by bljean@aol.com December 16, 2004 - 18:46:54 Topic ID# 3141
But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is there a
danger there? I remember reading every comment that came through, especially on
stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing list of
"want to read". I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just that there
was a range: some very brief, some quite long (I loved reading those the most,
I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with someone over
coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).

Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17 stories... I
don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an award or
not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material, latest chapter of
a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was slash-only,
one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories, and a number
which allowed both slash and het. I figure if I were to complain that there's
not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have little ones who are often
reading over my shoulder), someone would simply tell me I ought to organise one
if I felt the dearth. Not having a working organisational bone in my body, it
wouldn't happen. But if someone else organised, I might jump on the bandwagon.

Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My love life
is much better when I avoid porn.)

Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the "tamer"
or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking about throwing
NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled. I'm
afraid my head is not working well.

In a message dated 12/16/2004 2:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the
stories here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to
adult material, but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long
as you don't post an exact link. You can post a description such as
"available in HASA Beta under the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the
story is, and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't
be very hard if they have the title and author's name


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3142

Re: NC-17 stories? Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 16, 2004 - 19:24:49 Topic ID# 3141
I don't think Marta meant for them to run together with "tamer" stories, but
in their own category or subcategory.

But my answer is still no. For some of the same reasons you specify. This
list is for general audience and while we don't archive stories, we do host
links to those stories and comments about those stories. Comments about
NC-17 stories can lean into being NC-17 themselves. And I don't want younger
people clicking on a link of our nominees finding an NC-17 story.

There *are* other awards out there for NC-17 stories. In fact,
Alt.StarTrek.Creative even has an offshoot:
Alt.StarTrek.Creative.Erotica.moderated (or something like that). And they
have their own awards, the Golden Os. I won't spell out what the O stands
for. A different group administrates the Golden Os and ASC-EM.

If someone else wants to create an off-shoot to the MEFAs for NC-17 stories,
you are welcome to borrow from the MEFAs, just as I have borrowed from ASC.
It could be the MEEFAs (Middle-Earth Erotic Fanfiction Awards). It just
won't be me running it. The MEFAs will continue on as relatively family
friendly. (I say relatively because we do allow R-rated stories).

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com





-----Original Message-----
From: bljean@aol.com [mailto:bljean@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:47 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: NC-17 stories?


But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is there a
danger there? I remember reading every comment that came through, especially
on stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing list
of "want to read". I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just
that there was a range: some very brief, some quite long (I loved reading
those the most, I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with
someone over coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).

Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17 stories...
I don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an award or
not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material, latest
chapter of a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was
slash-only, one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories,
and a number which allowed both slash and het. I figure if I were to
complain that there's not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have
little ones who are often reading over my shoulder), someone would simply
tell me I ought to organise one if I felt the dearth. Not having a working
organisational bone in my body, it wouldn't happen. But if someone else
organised, I might jump on the bandwagon.

Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My love life
is much better when I avoid porn.)

Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the "tamer"
or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking about
throwing
NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled. I'm
afraid my head is not working well.

In a message dated 12/16/2004 2:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the stories
here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to adult material,
but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long as you don't post an
exact link. You can post a description such as "available in HASA Beta under
the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the story is,
and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't be very hard if
they have the title and author's name


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3143

Re: NC-17 stories? Posted by John and Mel Knox December 16, 2004 - 19:25:02 Topic ID# 3141
Even though I do occasionally write NC-17 material, I must say that I agree
with Lindelea... Let's just keep this space as is, there are indeed other
awards that are inclined in that direction.

SilverMoonLady


>From: bljean@aol.com
>Reply-To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: NC-17 stories?

>
>But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is there a
>danger there? I remember reading every comment that came through,
>especially on
>stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing list of
>"want to read". I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just that
>there
>was a range: some very brief, some quite long (I loved reading those the
>most,
>I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with someone over
>coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).
>
>Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17 stories...
>I
>don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an award or
>not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material, latest
>chapter of
>a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was
>slash-only,
>one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories, and a number
>which allowed both slash and het. I figure if I were to complain that
>there's
>not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have little ones who are
>often
>reading over my shoulder), someone would simply tell me I ought to organise
>one
>if I felt the dearth. Not having a working organisational bone in my body,
>it
>wouldn't happen. But if someone else organised, I might jump on the
>bandwagon.
>
>Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My love
>life
>is much better when I avoid porn.)
>
>Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the "tamer"
>or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking about
>throwing
>NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.
>
>I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled. I'm
>afraid my head is not working well.
>
>In a message dated 12/16/2004 2:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
>I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the
>stories here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to
>adult material, but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long
>as you don't post an exact link. You can post a description such as
>"available in HASA Beta under the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
>NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the
>story is, and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't
>be very hard if they have the title and author's name
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Msg# 3144

Re: NC-17 stories? Posted by Marta December 16, 2004 - 23:57:02 Topic ID# 3141
Hi guys, especially Ainae and Lindelea,

When I brought up the issue of including NC-17 stories, I was not
trying to make a judgment on the value of NC-17 stories (or the lack
thereof), or criticize this year's awards for not including them. Just
to make that clear.

I also was not suggesting a separate NC-17 category. I was suggesting
that NC-17 stories be allowed to compete in any stories, under the
same rules as R-rated stories: they must carry the appropriate
warnings (including the NC-17 rating), and comments about them must be
suitable for a general-audience group. I couldn't cite you a rule to
this effect, but a few people referred in their comments to keeping a
comment vague so that it would be "PG". If R-rated stories can be
reviewed in such a way that's appropriate for a general audience Yahoo
group, I don't see any reason why NC-17 stories couldn't be similarly
reviewed.

I was not even thinking about erotica when I opened up this topic. I
was thinking more about violence. Also, there seems to be a tendency
of people to up-rate their stories. R can be a rather underused
rating, and a lot of people have a hard time seeing the distinction
between the two.

If you want to keep the awards "family friendly" I'm okay with that. I
guess my point was that for a lot of things, one person's NC-17 is
another person's R (and vice versa, I suppose). There was one good
author in particular whose stuff I thought could have been rated R, it
was certainly no more "adult" or explicit than some of the other
things that were nominated this year, but she declined to allow the
stories to run because she rated them NC-17. I respected her wishes
and did not nominate the stories, of course.

Anyway, at the risk of over-debating an issue that's already been
decided (Ainae, feel free to tell me to shut up and I will do so)...

<snip>
> But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is
there a
> danger there?

I think that most comments of R-rated stories pretty much restricted
themselves to something that was appropriate for a general audience. I
tried to keep mine at least PG rated. And what I was reviewing, it was
usually the mechanics of the story or the general plot - not a blow-
by-blow of a gory battle scene the author had written. If this is not
a rule already, I think it should be, that comments of *any* fic
despite the rating should be acceptable for members as young as 13 (I
think that's the youngest age a person can have a Yahoo account?).

> I remember reading every comment that came through, especially on
> stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing
list of
> "want to read".

Oh, yes. I read most of the comments, too. In part because I'm
impatient and I wanted to see how I was "doing" compared to the other
people in my categories) ;-)

>I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just that there
> was a range: some very brief, some quite long

I have been reading through the comments to spotcheck errors (am
working on that, Ainae, slowly but surely). So far I haven't come
across anything that I'd be uncomfortable reading in a "General" story
at HASA, which is the archive where I happen to read most so where I'm
most comfortable. Most G, a few PG, and most of the suggestive ones
are only at all suggestive if you have also read the story.

> (I loved reading those the most,
> I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with someone
over
> coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).
>

Oh, yes! For the exact same reason.

> Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17
stories... I
> don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an
award or
> not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material,
latest chapter of
> a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was
slash-only,
> one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories, and a
number
> which allowed both slash and het.

I am obviously out of the loop on awards in this fandom. I am aware of
the Golden Mushroom Awards, Mithril Awards, and My Precious Awards -
all of which, I think, allow stories through NC17/Adult. But the story
must be properly labelled. And I'm not aware of any award that is
*only* NC17. Even slash... slash does not necessarily == smut. I have
seen PG slash (and I do not read much slash by a long shot). I
honestly don't see why there's such a difference between R and NC17.

> I figure if I were to complain that there's
> not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have little ones who
are often
> reading over my shoulder), someone would simply tell me I ought to
organise one
> if I felt the dearth.

Yes, they probably would!

> Not having a working organisational bone in my body, it
> wouldn't happen. But if someone else organised, I might jump on the
bandwagon.
>

At one point I was considering starting an award for Men (i.e.,
Gondor, Rohan, etc.)but then RL got in the way. It's been a really
rough six months for me, personally, and I won't be organizing
anything like this for a long time. Or probably even jumping on the
bandwagon for something new.

But there might be room for a family-friendly award. If this is where
MEFA wants to go, I'm fine with that. (In this case I think we also
need to bar R-rated fics.) I just thought the reason for no NC17 was
to keep the Yahoo group from being adult (which I agree with), so I
wanted to point out that wasn't necessarily a problem.

> Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My
love life
> is much better when I avoid porn.)
>

Yes, I can understand that. I do not read what I would consider "porn"
- on occasion I will read a good story even if it has an explicit
scene or two, but never PWP. Part of it's a religious conviction issue
(and a feminist issue at that) - I don't like to see sex portrayed
that way (but that really *is* another discussion, lol!). But mainly I
just find those kinds of stories... well, boring.

But see my earlier comments - things besides sex can make a story
NC17. Violence. In some cases, even just mature themes.

> Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the
"tamer"
> or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking
about throwing
> NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.
>

No, it's not. And I don't think we would be doing this, by allowing
NC17 stuff; they would carry the NC17 ratings. The comments and
summaries would have to be suitable for a general audience, just like
is true for R-rated stuff now.

> I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled.
I'm
> afraid my head is not working well.
>

Not me! I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm overly pro-NC17. I don't think
I've ever written anything like that, and I usually don't read it, for
reasons that are my own. This is not an emotionally charged issue for
me; but there are stories I would like the chance to volunteer that I
think fall into that hazy area that some people call R and others'
NC17. I think it would make the awards more inclusive and simpler all
around if we allowed them, but that's just my instinct.

Marta

Msg# 3145

Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 17, 2004 - 2:57:20 Topic ID# 123
The following MEFAwards poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: PM Suggestion: Voting Season should be
a) broken up so that categories run in
separate periods with deadlines or b)
should be one open block for all
categories.

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- a) catgories in periods, 9 votes, 47.37%
- b) all categories in one block, 10 votes, 52.63%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

Msg# 3146

Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 17, 2004 - 3:00:17 Topic ID# 123
The following MEFAwards poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: PM Suggestion: Do not allow WIPs that
have not been updated in longer than
one year.

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Disallow them, 16 votes, 69.57%
- Allow them, 7 votes, 30.43%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

Msg# 3147

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by ainaechoiriel December 17, 2004 - 10:22:43 Topic ID# 123
Here's where democracy becomes a problem. We have, at this moment,
171 members. And yet, if you total the votes here, we have 19.

How do the other 151 of you feel on this issue? Is it right for 19
people to decide this issue for everyone?

Especially when this was decided by just one vote.

This was what I said I didn't want happening. Democracy works best
when the voter turnout is high. Otherwise the minority is deciding
for the majority. Just like having a politburo....

Well, this is decided. At least for 2005. If you don't like it,
speak up at next year's Post Mortem, and if it comes to a poll...VOTE!

--Ainaechoiriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> The following MEFAwards poll is now closed. Here are the
> final results:
>
>
> POLL QUESTION: PM Suggestion: Voting Season should be
> a) broken up so that categories run in
> separate periods with deadlines or b)
> should be one open block for all
> categories.
>
> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> - a) catgories in periods, 9 votes, 47.37%
> - b) all categories in one block, 10 votes, 52.63%
>
>
>
> For more information about this group, please visit
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards
>
> For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

Msg# 3148

Re: NC-17 stories? Posted by ainaechoiriel December 17, 2004 - 12:51:58 Topic ID# 3141
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys, especially Ainae and Lindelea,

I'm going to do a lot of snipping, though I did read everything. I
just only have one or two main things to reply on.

> I was not even thinking about erotica when I opened up this topic.
I
> was thinking more about violence. Also, there seems to be a
tendency
> of people to up-rate their stories. R can be a rather underused
> rating, and a lot of people have a hard time seeing the distinction
> between the two.

That question came up quite early on. We lost a Moderator over it,
if you were around to remember. And in the end, it birthed the "What
is NC-17" text. You see we tried to decide what separated R and NC-
17. We fell back on movies as a guide. Sex was easy. Just about
anyone can say waht separates NC-17 and R when it comes to sex. But
violence? We thought of the most violent movies we could think of.
And they were R. Have you see the Passion of the Christ? I have sat
through horror movies since I was a kid. Yet I had to grab my
younger sister's hand during the scourging. How about Saving Private
Ryan? Veterans have claimed that D-Day invasion was the closest
films have come to realistic combat yet. Braveheart? Mel Gibson
was gutted there on screen. R. Kill Bill? Didn't see it but I saw
the previews. Gladiator? Also R.

We couldn't think of one movie that was rated NC-17 for violence. So
we came up with this (inspired by Jeff Foxworthy):

"Saving Private Ryan
The Passion of the Christ
Braveheart
Kill Bill
Pulp fiction
Gladiator
All of these movies were rated R. Which means, apparently, our
tolerance for violence is far higher than our tolerance for sex.

So, if the violence and gore in your story makes any of those movies
look like a Sunday School lesson about peace and love...
your story might be an NC-17. "

> Anyway, at the risk of over-debating an issue that's already been
> decided (Ainae, feel free to tell me to shut up and I will do so)...

I won't tell you to shut up. It *has* been decided. You can discuss
it all you want. ;-)

> I think that most comments of R-rated stories pretty much
restricted
> themselves to something that was appropriate for a general
audience. I
> tried to keep mine at least PG rated. And what I was reviewing, it
was
> usually the mechanics of the story or the general plot - not a blow-
> by-blow of a gory battle scene the author had written. If this is
not
> a rule already, I think it should be, that comments of *any* fic
> despite the rating should be acceptable for members as young as 13
(I
> think that's the youngest age a person can have a Yahoo account?).

Presently, there is a rule and it states:

[V.]B. Warning: all on-list comments should be suitable for children
under 18, even when commenting on R-rated stories or poems.


> I have been reading through the comments to spotcheck errors (am
> working on that, Ainae, slowly but surely). So far I haven't come
> across anything that I'd be uncomfortable reading in a "General"
story
> at HASA, which is the archive where I happen to read most so where
I'm
> most comfortable. Most G, a few PG, and most of the suggestive ones
> are only at all suggestive if you have also read the story.

I *didn't* read them all. I was far too busy. But I did see a
suggestive one now and then. I know at least one used the
word "smut". That, in itself, may not be enough to run afoul of rule
V.B., but it shows why we need to be careful to retain our family-
friendly nature.

> I am obviously out of the loop on awards in this fandom. I am aware
of
> the Golden Mushroom Awards, Mithril Awards, and My Precious Awards -

> all of which, I think, allow stories through NC17/Adult. But the
story
> must be properly labelled. And I'm not aware of any award that is
> *only* NC17. Even slash... slash does not necessarily == smut. I
have
> seen PG slash (and I do not read much slash by a long shot). I
> honestly don't see why there's such a difference between R and NC17.

See our What is NC-17 text on the web site and in the Files section.
We went for the jeff Foxworthy approach but it is still
our "official" definition.

> At one point I was considering starting an award for Men (i.e.,
> Gondor, Rohan, etc.)but then RL got in the way. It's been a really
> rough six months for me, personally, and I won't be organizing
> anything like this for a long time. Or probably even jumping on the
> bandwagon for something new.

That I understand. I love the MEFAs. I love why I started them, but
gosh it has been a LOT of work. And this for an already stress-
damaged person. I didn't bother telling the neurologist that I
started a new fanfiction awards contest that takes 6 months to run.
He might have slapped me upside the head!

> But there might be room for a family-friendly award. If this is
where
> MEFA wants to go, I'm fine with that. (In this case I think we also
> need to bar R-rated fics.)

I have a tougher time with that. As you said, a lot of stories rate
themselves higher than they need to. And then there is that violence
thing. We, as a people, appear to be biased. I am as well.I
realize it. Fictionaly violence, I generally have no problem with,
as long as it serves the plot. Sex though...I stay away. Real
violence is awful. I'm a torture-fic writer and fan. I hate it in
real life. Back to fic, I've written some pretty awful stuff,
violence-wise. I put a characted into Auschwitz for 5-7 weeks, I've
written another character as he was strangled to death, another as he
was being stabbed in the head by a laser scalpel. Heck, I've even
written (though the story was never finished and so isn't on the web
anywhere) a conscious (though numb and paralyzed) vivisection from
the point of view of the vivisectee! But the only story I ever rated
as an R was The Lure of the Darkness. Why? Because it's about a
spider seducing away a little girl so it can kill her.

Partly it's an R because it's about violence to a young child.
Partly because it's the closest thing to a sex story I'm likely ever
to write. Because that spider uses the imagery or language of lust.
It wants to eat the little girl, yes, not have sex with her. But the
language of lust is still there. It's an R to me, in a big way,
because of sex. Yet there's really no sex in it.

Got off on a tangent there. Anyway, I was watching R movies since I
was a kid. My parents allowed me, watched with me. My parents
aren't saints or anything. There were things we weren't allowed to
see: Porn, of course, but also the Exorcist is up there. I've never
seen it still and don't want to. But all the Friday the 13ths and
Alien movies, seen 'em forever. R movies make more money so many
times a PG or PG-13 will add a sex sceen to bump the story up to R.
Wasn't Titanic an R? Anyway, it's not a story about sex.

NC-17's generally can't say that and that's how we arrived at our
Jeff Foxworthy lines.

Read that and that's where we draw the line on what is and what isn't
elligible by rating.

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3149

Re: NC-17 Posted by bljean@aol.com December 17, 2004 - 18:21:58 Topic ID# 3149
I wasn't intimating that there were awards limited to NC-17 stories, only
that there were awards out there already that already allow the category.

Looking at the ratings guides on several archive websites, it does appear
that there is a significant difference between R and NC-17, if the rating is
properly applied.

In a message dated 12/17/2004 3:24:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I am obviously out of the loop on awards in this fandom. I am aware of
the Golden Mushroom Awards, Mithril Awards, and My Precious Awards -
all of which, I think, allow stories through NC17/Adult. But the story
must be properly labelled. And I'm not aware of any award that is
*only* NC17. Even slash... slash does not necessarily == smut. I have
seen PG slash (and I do not read much slash by a long shot). I
honestly don't see why there's such a difference between R and NC17.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3150

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards - WIPs Poll Posted by Naresha December 18, 2004 - 4:19:08 Topic ID# 123
Sorry to do this AFTER the poll is over - but it
got me thinking. Feel free to waggle a finger at
me if I've missed someone suggesting what I'm
about to.

What about the idea of an "Unfinished" category?
You could have a WIPs category which are stories
that haven't been finished but HAVE been worked
on in recent history (updated within the last
year) and then have Unfinished stories (updated
outside of the last year)

Just a suggestion!

Yes I know this category was pretty definate in
it's decison! But I had to suggest it anyway!

Naresha.


--- MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com wrote:
---------------------------------

The following MEFAwards poll is now closed. Here
are the final results:


POLL QUESTION: PM Suggestion: Do not allow WIPs
that have not been updated in longer than
one year.

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Disallow them, 16 votes, 69.57%
- Allow them, 7 votes, 30.43%



=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3151

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by Naresha December 18, 2004 - 6:12:47 Topic ID# 123
--- ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
wrote:
---------------------------------

> Here's where democracy becomes a problem. We
> have, at this moment, 171 members. And yet, if
> you total the votes here, we have 19.
>
> How do the other 151 of you feel on this
> issue? Is it right for 19 people to decide
> this issue for everyone?
>
> Especially when this was decided by just one
> vote.

I must say that personally I'm not a MASSIVE fan
of 20ppl deciding the opinion for nearly 200ppl.
But this is what seems to happen in every Yahoo!
Group. You get a huge percentage of ppl who lurk
and seem not to hold any opinion of what happens.
But something like this isn't deciding something
small like (e.g) whether or not to allow
Mary-Sues to be posted on a list. This is
deciding a rather important factor of these
awards. Personally I'd like to see a slightly
larger number of votes - would it be a good idea
to set a minimum number of votes required total
to have an idea put into action? Would it be
even viable to do so?! And as you said - 20ppl
deciding this matter by a matter of one vote
isn't exactly the best confidence boost when
you're trying to ascertain what people really
want!

And that's my two cents on the topic!
Naresha.

=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3152

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by Larian Elensar December 18, 2004 - 9:19:22 Topic ID# 123
Naresha makes a good point. Every organization I've ever been in has criteria
for make a vote viable...big issues require 2/3 majority to pass, etc. The
choice I voted for won this poll, and to be honest, I'm not comfortable with it
at all, if I think about the entire list. On the other hand, I'd say that the
group is pretty normal--having only 10 to 15% of the members actively
participate, and since they are the ones who likely joined in on the
discussions, maybe those 19 people should be the final decision, since they
were the ones who did participate and inform themselves.

Heh. Yeah, I'm helpful.


--- Naresha <north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> --- ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> ---------------------------------
>
> > Here's where democracy becomes a problem. We
> > have, at this moment, 171 members. And yet, if
> > you total the votes here, we have 19.
> >
> > How do the other 151 of you feel on this
> > issue? Is it right for 19 people to decide
> > this issue for everyone?
Personally I'd like to see a slightly
> larger number of votes - would it be a good idea
> to set a minimum number of votes required total
> to have an idea put into action? Would it be
> even viable to do so?!
> Naresha.

Msg# 3153

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 18, 2004 - 9:36:43 Topic ID# 123
LOL. It is difficult isn't it? I don't know how to motivate people to vote in a poll, but as for myself, even though I don't really take an active part in discussions, when there is a poll, I am right in there. I figure that even though I am usually a lurker, a poll is going to affect me too, so I always am careful to vote.

I suppose my feeling is that I took the time to vote, and if others don't agree, they should have voted too. A 2/3 majority to pass would be nice in a perfect world, but from the limited response we got with these polls, it seems to me that we would just have to run the polls over and over and we still probably not have enough people voting to make the 2/3rds we would need for a decision.

I don't have a solution to this problem either, but perhaps if things don't go the way that other members wanted and they are unhappy with the results, maybe that will be what motivates them to vote next time.

Not helpful I know, just my opinion : )

Marigold

>
>Naresha makes a good point.  Every organization I've ever been in has criteria
>for make a vote viable...big issues require 2/3 majority to pass, etc.  The
>choice I voted for won this poll, and to be honest, I'm not comfortable with it
>at all, if I think about the entire list.  On the other hand, I'd say that the
>group is pretty normal--having only 10 to 15% of the members actively
>participate, and since they are the ones who likely joined in on the
>discussions, maybe those 19 people should be the final decision, since they
>were the ones who did participate and inform themselves.  
>
>Heh.  Yeah, I'm helpful.
>
>
>--- Naresha <north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>  --- ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>> > Here's where democracy becomes a problem.  We
>> > have, at this moment, 171 members.  And yet, if
>> > you total the votes here, we have 19.
>> >
>> > How do the other 151 of you feel on this
>> > issue?  Is it right for 19 people to decide
>> > this issue for everyone?
>  Personally  I'd like to see a slightly
>> larger number of votes - would it be a good idea
>> to set a minimum number of votes required total
>> to have an idea put into action?  Would it be
>> even viable to do so?!
>> Naresha.
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

Msg# 3154

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by Naresha December 18, 2004 - 9:48:16 Topic ID# 123
Well you liked my suggestion, so I'm happy! :-P
But that probably is probably aided by the fact
it's 235am and I'm watching the same handful of
scenes in TTT yet again! (It's for a fic, so i
have an excuse! ;-P)

But back on topic... I think there's obviously a
degree of discomfort with the democratic process
and the end results we're seeing. But I'm still
not sure how we're going to get anywhere... We
want more people to vote, then we need to figure
out HOW to get them to vote! And the margin in
this is still making me uncomfortable as well -
as it would even if every member on here had
voted. One vote is VERY close... I know we need
to have a cut off point and one vote is one vote
and that one vote won the poll... I'm not sure
how to come to a compromise - indeed if it is
even possible on this type of topic! Unless we
had something (and forgive my ramblings - its
late!) that TRIED to combine the two - say
allowed ppl to vote across the board, but
encouraged them to vote in set blocks like was
done this year. It might help with the counting,
I don't know, (It might also make it trickier)
by giving an idea of what the standing of certain
stories is.

Anyway... I'll stop rambling now!
N.


Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:
---------------------------------
Naresha makes a good point. Every organization
I've ever been in has criteria for make a vote
viable...big issues require 2/3 majority to pass,
etc. The choice I voted for won this poll, and
to be honest, I'm not comfortable with it at all,
if I think about the entire list. On the other
hand, I'd say that the group is pretty
normal--having only 10 to 15% of the members
actively
participate, and since they are the ones who
likely joined in on the discussions, maybe those
19 people should be the final decision, since
they
were the ones who did participate and inform
themselves.

Heh. Yeah, I'm helpful.


--- Naresha <north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au>
wrote:

> --- ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> ---------------------------------
>
> > Here's where democracy becomes a problem. We

> > have, at this moment, 171 members. And yet,
if
> > you total the votes here, we have 19.
> >
> > How do the other 151 of you feel on this
> > issue? Is it right for 19 people to decide
> > this issue for everyone?
Personally I'd like to see a slightly
> larger number of votes - would it be a good
idea
> to set a minimum number of votes required total
> to have an idea put into action? Would it be
> even viable to do so?!
> Naresha.


=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3155

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by Larian Elensar December 18, 2004 - 10:31:54 Topic ID# 123
Yeah, I was thinking that too, Marigold, that if they don't like the results
this time, maybe they will vote next time...

Oh, and I wasn't meaning that we should pass things with 2/3 majority, but
maybe a minimum percentage-a quorum-would be a good idea. (Though what that
number should be is up for debate, of course)

I don't know, I hate seeing such a small number decide something of importance,
but I also don't see how that will change, maybe we just have to face it, that
it's not the majority who rule, it's the few...


--- MarigoldCotton@aol.com wrote:

> LOL. It is difficult isn't it?

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Msg# 3156

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 18, 2004 - 11:19:54 Topic ID# 123
>Oh, and I wasn't meaning that we should pass things with 2/3 majority, but
maybe a minimum percentage-a quorum-would be a good idea. (Though what that
number should be is up for debate, of course)

I took it to mean that at least 2/3rds of the members would need to vote on an issue for the results to be valid...is that right? I think that would be good, but again, I doubt that 2/3rds of the membership would turn out to vote, and we would have to keep running polls over and over until the required % voted, and then how do we decide an issue if we never get the required %? : (

Marigold : )

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

Msg# 3157

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards - Marta's $.02 Posted by Marta December 18, 2004 - 11:51:20 Topic ID# 123
--> The problem of only 20 people voting (the question of oligarchy
vs. democracy)

I don't think that only having 20 people vote on a matter this
important means that we're doing "rule by the few". The idea of
democracy is that anyone *can* vote, not that they necessarily have
to. If Ainae was only listening to a small subset of members that
could conceivably be called an oligarchy. But as long as anyone can
still vote, I think it's still a democracy, so far as these polls
actually affect policy.

Ainae, is there any easy way to know how many members have actually
posted in the last two weeks? How many actually are on individual
mail or aily digest (vs. special notice or no mail)? I know this
isn't a perfect measure of activity; I'm on no-mail myself; but it
might give us *some* idea of how many members are just lurking, or
who just joined to vote but have since moved on and aren't even
reading the group.

--> The idea of a quorum

This is possibly a good Again, how man should it be? I think we'll
have a better idea if my two questions above turn out to be
answerable. Maybe on the next poll we could have a "no opinion"
option? This would let us know hwo many people are active but just
didn't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

My feeling? These polls shouldn't be policy-deciding. They should
help Ainae know what those group members who care enough to vote
actually thing, so she can make a more informed decision. In this
case it seems pretty obvious that, of those members who voted, there
wasn't a definite leaning toward categorized or all-at-once voting.

--> The specific issue of splitting up the categories

A lot of people mentioned that voting this year was confusing. I
didn't have that problem, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue. I
think we can help that problem if we decide to go with categorized
voting - i.e., have an announcements-only list and mention what
categories are being voted on on the group homepage
(groups.yahoo.com/group/mefawards/)

Here's an idea for a compromise: How about having some division, but
not as much. All the Genres (Drama, Romance...) could run at once.
Then all the Races. Then all the Source Material categories. Let
them run for a longer time, but don't throw *all* the categories
together.

Marta

Msg# 3158

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards - Marta's $.02 Posted by Marta December 18, 2004 - 11:51:55 Topic ID# 123
--> The problem of only 20 people voting (the question of oligarchy
vs. democracy)

I don't think that only having 20 people vote on a matter this
important means that we're doing "rule by the few". The idea of
democracy is that anyone *can* vote, not that they necessarily have
to. If Ainae was only listening to a small subset of members that
could conceivably be called an oligarchy. But as long as anyone can
still vote, I think it's still a democracy, so far as these polls
actually affect policy.

Ainae, is there any easy way to know how many members have actually
posted in the last two weeks? How many actually are on individual
mail or aily digest (vs. special notice or no mail)? I know this
isn't a perfect measure of activity; I'm on no-mail myself; but it
might give us *some* idea of how many members are just lurking, or
who just joined to vote but have since moved on and aren't even
reading the group.

--> The idea of a quorum

This is possibly a good Again, how man should it be? I think we'll
have a better idea if my two questions above turn out to be
answerable. Maybe on the next poll we could have a "no opinion"
option? This would let us know hwo many people are active but just
didn't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

My feeling? These polls shouldn't be policy-deciding. They should
help Ainae know what those group members who care enough to vote
actually thing, so she can make a more informed decision. In this
case it seems pretty obvious that, of those members who voted, there
wasn't a definite leaning toward categorized or all-at-once voting.

--> The specific issue of splitting up the categories

A lot of people mentioned that voting this year was confusing. I
didn't have that problem, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue. I
think we can help that problem if we decide to go with categorized
voting - i.e., have an announcements-only list and mention what
categories are being voted on on the group homepage
(groups.yahoo.com/group/mefawards/)

Here's an idea for a compromise: How about having some division, but
not as much. All the Genres (Drama, Romance...) could run at once.
Then all the Races. Then all the Source Material categories. Let
them run for a longer time, but don't throw *all* the categories
together.

Marta

Msg# 3159

Re: Poll results for MEFAwards - Marta's $.02 Posted by erin\_hobbit\_ofbt December 18, 2004 - 22:02:29 Topic ID# 123
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
>
> --> The problem of only 20 people voting (the question of oligarchy
> vs. democracy)
>
> I don't think that only having 20 people vote on a matter this
> important means that we're doing "rule by the few". The idea of
> democracy is that anyone *can* vote, not that they necessarily have
> to. If Ainae was only listening to a small subset of members that
> could conceivably be called an oligarchy. But as long as anyone can
> still vote, I think it's still a democracy, so far as these polls
> actually affect policy.



*raises hand meekly*

I confess to NOT voting ... simply because I felt completely
unqualified to do so. I wasn't present for the voting, didn't even
belong to this group until the awards were announced, and I have no
idea how the process worked. So ... since I have no faintest clue
whether the voting season should be broken up or all in one block, I
abstained.

So from one non-voting lurker ... my apologies. :-(
Cheers ~

Erin

Msg# 3160

Computer problems Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 19, 2004 - 0:43:27 Topic ID# 3160
The computer I read this group with is having problems with it's power
supply. It does come on, but it makes some strange sounds. I've ordered
another power supply and I have another computer here that I can canibalize,
so maybe tomorrow I'll swap out the power supply. Until then, this computer
shouldn't be left on for long periods of time.

That's why there's a delay in my answering.

Anyway, thanks for replying about my venting about the polls. Good points
everyone made. I like Naresha's compromise. And someone also had a good
idea about putting in a neutral choice of "no opinion". I'll do that in
future polls on this sort of thing. I also appreciate the posts (sorry
having some aphasia here, trouble putting sentences together to make them
say what I want them to) about how democratic it is or isn't to have so few
voting. And yes, I think we do see this in just about every other Yahoo
Group. We can't wait until we have a quorum, as someone pointed out. We'd
never have a poll that closed. So decisions have to be made, and yes, if
democracy is about freedom then those who are eligible to vote have the
freedom to not vote. (It just doesn't make the system work all that well.
We see that in our national politics as well sometimes.) Yes, this one was
a close vote. But it's a vote. Would a second poll change anything? And
then would it be fair? I think I'll go with Naresha's idea. The poll says
one block. So one block it will be. But I'll find someway to break it up
and post "reminders" something to help those of us who like those deadlines
know when it's time to move on from one category if we want a chance to vote
on the others.

And besides all that, it may not make any difference if we get the
electronic voting stuff going. Anthony has some great ideas about that.
More on that when it's more official.

Goodnight for now.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3161

Re: Computer problems Posted by Naresha December 19, 2004 - 8:02:22 Topic ID# 3160
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
wrote:
---------------------------------
> I think I'll go with Naresha's idea. The poll
> says one block. So one block it will be. But
> I'll find someway to break it up and
> post "reminders" something to help those of us

> who like those deadlines know when it's time to

> move on from one category if we want a chance
> to vote on the others.

Ooh! Wow! Didn't actually expect that my
peculiar little ramblings would amount to
anything, but I'm glad it has! It might just
give us an idea of what people REALLY prefer if
we give them the opportunity to do both.

And I like the idea of the no opinion on polls as
well. May I also suggest another option as well?
Perhaps have an "Other opinion to those listed"
option on the polls? But if ppl do choose to
take that option, then they're required to post
that on the list. I've seen it on some polls at
various groups and it can do fairly well
(depending what the poll is about!) I think that
would cover just one more base and might generate
some lurkers to come forward (one can hope) and
put their ideas out there.

Resha


=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Msg# 3162

Re: Computer problems Posted by Marta December 19, 2004 - 13:49:59 Topic ID# 3160
<snip>
> And I like the idea of the no opinion on polls as
> well. May I also suggest another option as well?
> Perhaps have an "Other opinion to those listed"
> option on the polls? But if ppl do choose to
> take that option, then they're required to post
> that on the list.

I like this idea. Maybe also require that they post it in a database,
so it's easier for Ainae to keep track of?

I think it's important to bring up a point that came up when HASA was
writing polls. One of the admins, who had studied this kind of thing
at a graduate level, pointed out that there are at least two types of
polls: opinion-gathering and policy-making polls.

I was treating this poll as an opinion-gathering one. It tells Ainae
how many of us really believe. So you can have however many options
you want (no opinion, opinion not listed, whatever). You could even
give more than two definite options, say:

- Voting season should be structured as it was this year
- Voting season should continue to be split somewhat, but more
categories should run at once for a longer time.
- All categories should run in one block.

If, however, this is a policy poll, there should only be two choices,
and they should be mutually exclusive:

- All categories should run in one block.
- All categories should not run in one block - different categories
should run at different times.

If the latter won, then we would have to decide exactly how to split
up the voting season - possibly with another policy poll. But the
point is there has to be only two choices so there's an easily
implementable winner.

Like I said, you can do an info-gathering poll with as many options as
you want, and the admins can use this info to helpo them make a
decision. But if you're going to have a simple "Whatever the outcome,
that will be the way things are run" type poll, it probably needs to
be structured as a policy poll (with only two options, and those
options covering all possibilities).

This isn't intended as a critique of this poll. I think the way it was
run is fine. I'm just saying this for future polls.

Marta

Msg# 3163

Re: Computer problems Posted by Naresha December 20, 2004 - 4:32:32 Topic ID# 3160
--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---------------------------------

<snip>
> > And I like the idea of the no opinion on
> > polls as well. May I also suggest another
> > option as well? Perhaps have an "Other
> > opinion to those listed" option on the
> > polls? But if ppl do choose to take that
> > option, then they're required to post that on

> > the list.

> I like this idea. Maybe also require that they
> post it in a database, so it's easier for Ainae
> to keep track of?

Yup! Definately a good idea! I wrote all that
pretty late, so I'm surprised I was even that
coherent! :-P It was just a general idea - open
to elaboration

> I think it's important to bring up a point that

> came up when HASA was writing polls. One of the
> admins, who had studied this kind of thing
> at a graduate level, pointed out that there are
> at least two types of polls: opinion-gathering
> and policy-making polls.
>
<snip>
>
> Like I said, you can do an info-gathering poll
> with as many options as you want, and the
> admins can use this info to helpo them make a
> decision. But if you're going to have a
> simple "Whatever the outcome, that will be the
> way things are run" type poll, it probably
> needs to be structured as a policy poll (with
> only two options, and those options covering
> all possibilities).
>
> This isn't intended as a critique of this poll.
> I think the way it was run is fine. I'm just
> saying this for future polls.

I get what you're saying, Marta, - and they're
all good points! - but I do think that it might
be taking it a just a little bit too far for what
we are doing. I think we can have a poll that
results in policy without cutting it down to only
2 options - I mean, we only had two options on
this one and look how much debate it has sparked!
I think maybe for the MEFAs it might work better
to have more than 2 options. Because then it
gives people more chance to voice a more accurate
opinion. That might also help break up such
closely voted polls as this one was.

Anyway... There's my two cents again! :-P
Resha

=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Msg# 3164

Re: Computer problems Posted by Marta December 20, 2004 - 11:37:03 Topic ID# 3160
I'm doing two things at once here (also trying to install the DSL
software on my new Apple), so if any of this is confusing... well,
just ask.

[allowing 'option not listed' choice on polls]
> > I like this idea. Maybe also require that they
> > post it in a database, so it's easier for Ainae
> > to keep track of?
>
> Yup! Definately a good idea! I wrote all that
> pretty late, so I'm surprised I was even that
> coherent! :-P It was just a general idea - open
> to elaboration
>

Of course. That's why I was elaborating. ;-)

[opinion-gathering vs. policy-making polls]
> I get what you're saying, Marta, - and they're
> all good points! - but I do think that it might
> be taking it a just a little bit too far for what
> we are doing.

That's entirely possible. I'm new to the contests side of the fandom.

> I think we can have a poll that
> results in policy without cutting it down to only
> 2 options - I mean, we only had two options on
> this one and look how much debate it has sparked!

Very true! I guess maybe I should clarify a bit.

Any poll can "result in policy" in a loose sense - Ainae or whoever is
making the decision can see that the majority of people feel a certain
way, and decide that s/he will go with what majority says in this
case. I'm guessing that what we all want is always at least a
consideration in deciding policy - otherwise, what's the point of this
post-mortem? So any way that helps Ainae get a hold on how we really
feel is a good thing.

I think this is still an opinion-gathering poll. Sure, a policy came
out of it, but the policy wasn't directly due to the outcome of the
poll. Someone still had to make a decision - perhaps influenced by
what the poll had said, but Ainae could have said, after the poll,
"Thanks for your opinion, but I really feel strongly about this so
we're doing it my way" or "It's too close - we need more decision and
maybe eventually another poll."

On the other hand, Ainae could have given us a policy-making poll.
Something like:

*****
Q: How should voting season be split up? Whichever option gets the
most votes, that will be how we do things next year.

A1: The voting season should not be split. All categories should be
open at the same time.
A2: There should be some splitting. One subgroup of categories should
run then close, and a second group should run then close, etc. In this
case all categories are not open at once.
*****

Think about what would happen with this type of poll if we had more
than two options. Whatever option gets the most votes, that will
automatically become policy. But that option may not have gotten the
majority of the votes. Which isn't a great situation IMO.

Marta
> I think maybe for the MEFAs it might work better
> to have more than 2 options. Because then it
> gives people more chance to voice a more accurate
> opinion. That might also help break up such
> closely voted polls as this one was.
>
> Anyway... There's my two cents again! :-P
> Resha
>

Msg# 3165

New poll for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 22, 2004 - 0:06:59 Topic ID# 3
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

Post Mortem: Honorable Mentions will be
given to non-winning tiers and stories
that fall within how many points of 3rd
place?

o 1
o 3
o 5
o no opinion


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1561533

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Msg# 3166

A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 22, 2004 - 0:26:49 Topic ID# 3166
I've been spending my evenings working on a dress for my sister's birthday.
It just got tricky.

On to the post mortem:

Okay, I've got through the database and finalized a few more decisions. And
some are still left open. Some will go to polls.

1) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

We're keeping them. I'm going to go with the "it's okay to copy your author
comments" for now. The only way this will change for 2005 is if our
electronic stuff (aphasia alert) changes how we can vote. (more on this
when we've got the electronic stuff figured out, but Anthony had a great
idea.)

I will post some examples from the ASC Awards.

Which leads to...

1a) copying to generate author comments allowed (though preferably with
alterations)

Yep.

2) Cutoff dates for eligible WIP stories

Yes, as voted by poll. WIPs must be updated within the last year.

3) Honorable Mentions

Yes. Non-winning ties will get one. But who else? Someone within how many
points from 3rd place? See the poll. Vote.

4) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs. one-off
stories)

Yes, but for now only for info. Authors will be given suggestions based on
word count. They will choose their stories' sizes. If someone wishes to
keep stats, we'll see how this falls for possible categorization next year.

5) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes

Yes, to inline quotes and only two sentences or less.

This may also change based on the electronic stuff. We'll see what it can
do. I'll leave it as unfinalized for now.

7) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

No, not this year. May come up again next year.

8) add comments after contest marked "written after contest in (year of
addition)"

No, send those comments to the author or host your own rec site.

9) spawn subcats to achieve an evenly distribution of fics (5-15?) per
subcategory

No, let the nominations fall as they may. We will decide on an upward limit
that will create a new category when appropriate. (This is not appropriate
for all categories. Must be decided by Staff on an individual basis.)

10) New one: Start one month earlier so we don't end voting on Halloween

The poll decided that Voting Season will remain 1 1/5 months long. So what
if we start in April instead of May so as to end in late September rather
than at Halloween.

And now let's talk about banners.

I'm okay with standardizing the size. I'll try to post a few sizes and get
a poll going to decide which one is best.

Can anyone think of an easy way to get all the info on the banners? Viv did
it this year. And I like the uniformity of the base while the banners are
still distinct and creative.

I'll get the FAQ updated with the present decisions tomorrow. It's past my
bed time. ;-)


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3167

Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 22, 2004 - 2:56:15 Topic ID# 123
The following MEFAwards poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Voting Season...

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- ...needs to be longer, 4 votes, 36.36%
- ...needs to be shorter, 1 votes, 9.09%
- ...is jsut right., 6 votes, 54.55%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

Msg# 3168

Re: A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap Posted by Naresha December 22, 2004 - 4:40:23 Topic ID# 3166
All sound like good ideas!!! Was just wondering if you got my suggestion about Unfinished stories as well as WIPs???

Resha.



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3169

Poll results for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 22, 2004 - 8:29:57 Topic ID# 123
The following MEFAwards poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Voting Season...

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- ...needs to be longer, 4 votes, 36.36%
- ...needs to be shorter, 1 votes, 9.09%
- ...is jsut right., 6 votes, 54.55%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

Msg# 3170

Re: A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 22, 2004 - 10:15:03 Topic ID# 3166
-----Original Message-----
From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:40 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
recap



>All sound like good ideas!!! Was just wondering if you got my suggestion
about Unfinished stories as well as WIPs???

To be honest, I don't quite understand it. Unfinished and WIPs to me are the
same thing.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3171

Re: A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap Posted by Naresha December 22, 2004 - 10:39:13 Topic ID# 3166
Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:


-----Original Message-----
From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:40 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
recap



>All sound like good ideas!!! Was just wondering if you got my suggestion
about Unfinished stories as well as WIPs???

> To be honest, I don't quite understand it.
> Unfinished and WIPs to me are the same thing.

Ah!!! Well what I was suggesting was that - given we had been talking about cutting WIPs to only allow storys that had been updated with in the last 12mths - - was create a new category for stories that HAVEN'T been updated within the last year.

e.g. Story X hasn't been worked on since June 04. That falls into the last 12mths, so it is classed as a WIP.

Story Y on the other hand, hasn't been updated since November 03 - that is more than 12mths ago - therefore it is classed as an Unfinished story.

Pretty much the difference I'm trying to get to is that WIPs are seen as still being worked upon, whereas Unfinisheds are looked upon as most liking abandoned works - but they still have merit as a story none-the-less.

That make it any clearer???

Resha



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3172

Re: A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 22, 2004 - 10:50:28 Topic ID# 3166
Okay, I see the difference you are making. What do others think about
allowing these "unfinished" stories in a separate category or subcategory?

I think part of the reason people voted for putting a limit on the WIPs (1
year upedated) because they tend to not like to read a story that's
abandoned.

Other thoughts?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:39 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
recap




Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:


-----Original Message-----
From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:40 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
recap



>All sound like good ideas!!! Was just wondering if you got my suggestion
about Unfinished stories as well as WIPs???

> To be honest, I don't quite understand it.
> Unfinished and WIPs to me are the same thing.

Ah!!! Well what I was suggesting was that - given we had been talking about
cutting WIPs to only allow storys that had been updated with in the last
12mths - - was create a new category for stories that HAVEN'T been updated
within the last year.

e.g. Story X hasn't been worked on since June 04. That falls into the last
12mths, so it is classed as a WIP.

Story Y on the other hand, hasn't been updated since November 03 - that is
more than 12mths ago - therefore it is classed as an Unfinished story.

Pretty much the difference I'm trying to get to is that WIPs are seen as
still being worked upon, whereas Unfinisheds are looked upon as most liking
abandoned works - but they still have merit as a story none-the-less.

That make it any clearer???

Resha



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3173

Re: A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap Posted by sulriel December 22, 2004 - 10:57:55 Topic ID# 3166
I tend not to read WIPs and wouldn't read/vote in an Unfinished
Category, but if enough people feel it is a worthwhile category, it's
easy enough for me to skip over.

I suppose the only downside would be the work for the admin.

Sulriel


--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:> Okay, I see the difference you are making. What do others
think about> allowing these "unfinished" stories in a separate
category or subcategory?
>
> I think part of the reason people voted for putting a limit on the
WIPs (1> year upedated) because they tend to not like to read a story
that's> abandoned.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> --Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3174

AW: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem Posted by elanor of aquitania December 22, 2004 - 11:35:19 Topic ID# 3174
> I think part of the reason people voted for putting a limit
> on the WIPs (1
> year upedated) because they tend to not like to read a story that's
> abandoned.
>
> Other thoughts?

Hi again,
I am one of those aberrant persons who like also unfinished stories. I would
like "Messages" by Shakes independently of the fact if it has been abandoned
or not. (Though he recently updated after nearly a year this would be for me
a story to read only for its own merits even abandoned.) So if you really
want to discriminate between WIP and unfinished story as Naresha described I
am decidedly for the category "Unfinished Story".

Best wishes Elanor

P.S. I take the opportunity to wish you all

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Juno sent me the following URL

and even I (who seldom laughs) had to laugh
when one deer after the other came alive:

http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf

I hope this will load up alright for you.
It did work very well for me. :-)
I hope it will make you smile, too.
(Probably you need shockwave installed on your PC.)

Msg# 3175

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs Posted by Larian Elensar December 22, 2004 - 11:58:50 Topic ID# 3175
I wouldn't read unfinished stories. If the author has abandoned them, why would
I put the time in, giving them feedback, when they apparently have lost the
motivation to finish. I wouldn't read any stories in an unfinished category. I
barely have the patience to read WIPs.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Okay, I see the difference you are making. What do others think about
> allowing these "unfinished" stories in a separate category or subcategory?
>
> I think part of the reason people voted for putting a limit on the WIPs (1
> year upedated) because they tend to not like to read a story that's
> abandoned.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:39 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
> recap
>
>
>
>
> Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:40 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
> recap
>
>
>
> >All sound like good ideas!!! Was just wondering if you got my suggestion
> about Unfinished stories as well as WIPs???
>
> > To be honest, I don't quite understand it.
> > Unfinished and WIPs to me are the same thing.
>
> Ah!!! Well what I was suggesting was that - given we had been talking about
> cutting WIPs to only allow storys that had been updated with in the last
> 12mths - - was create a new category for stories that HAVEN'T been updated
> within the last year.
>
> e.g. Story X hasn't been worked on since June 04. That falls into the last
> 12mths, so it is classed as a WIP.
>
> Story Y on the other hand, hasn't been updated since November 03 - that is
> more than 12mths ago - therefore it is classed as an Unfinished story.
>
> Pretty much the difference I'm trying to get to is that WIPs are seen as
> still being worked upon, whereas Unfinisheds are looked upon as most liking
> abandoned works - but they still have merit as a story none-the-less.
>
> That make it any clearer???
>
> Resha
>
>
>
> ~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~
>
> AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
> ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
> Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
> Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/
>
> My Website! Slash Me Happy
> http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy
>
> http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Msg# 3176

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs Posted by chathollinn@comcast.net December 22, 2004 - 14:10:03 Topic ID# 3175
Hello. Nor do I read unfinished stories, or works in progress (except when asked to beta). To me they are the same thing. Having read a few such stories when I first discovered fan fiction (2002), I thought they suffered from 2 flaws: First, most WIPs did not seem to tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end. They just reported episode after episode in an attempt to keep getting feedback. Second, they lacked discipline. The writing was mostly verbose, dialog-oriented ("Did too!" "Did not!" ad infinitum), and poorly organized.

I think writers owe their readers the commitment and discipline to think through a story, write it to completion, rewrite it as necessary, and then publish.

There must be exceptions to the WIP syndrome. But I like knowing the writer will keep her implied promise, and WIPs offer do not offer that assurance of completion. Save the awards for completed works, is my opinion. Best regards - Chathol-linn


-------------- Original message --------------
I wouldn't read unfinished stories. If the author has abandoned them, why would
I put the time in, giving them feedback, when they apparently have lost the
motivation to finish. I wouldn't read any stories in an unfinished category. I
barely have the patience to read WIPs.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Okay, I see the difference you are making. What do others think about
> allowing these "unfinished" stories in a separate category or subcategory?
>
> I think part of the reason people voted for putting a limit on the WIPs (1
> year upedated) because they tend to not like to read a story that's
> abandoned.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:39 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
> recap
>
>
>
>
> Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Naresha [mailto:north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:40 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem
> recap
>
>
>
> >All sound like good ideas!!! Was just wondering if you got my suggestion
> about Unfinished stories as well as WIPs???
>
> > To be honest, I don't quite understand it.
> > Unfinished and WIPs to me are the same thing.
>
> Ah!!! Well what I was suggesting was that - given we had been talking about
> cutting WIPs to only allow storys that had been updated with in the last
> 12mths - - was create a new category for stories that HAVEN'T been updated
> within the last year.
>
> e.g. Story X hasn't been worked on since June 04. That falls into the last
> 12mths, so it is classed as a WIP.
>
> Story Y on the other hand, hasn't been updated since November 03 - that is
> more than 12mths ago - therefore it is classed as an Unfinished story.
>
> Pretty much the difference I'm trying to get to is that WIPs are seen as
> still being worked upon, whereas Unfinisheds are looked upon as most liking
> abandoned works - but they still have merit as a story none-the-less.
>
> That make it any clearer???
>
> Resha
>
>
>
> ~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~
>
> AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
> ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
> Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
> Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/
>
> My Website! Slash Me Happy
> http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy
>
> http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to
U.S./Canada




Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3177

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mor Posted by Naresha December 23, 2004 - 5:26:40 Topic ID# 3174
elanor of aquitania <elanor@codacode.net> wrote:
<snip> this would be for me a story to read only for its own merits even abandoned.


Best wishes Elanor



Well Elanor has voiced what I was trying to get at. There are stories that are massive works unto themselves but that haven't been updated in ages for whatever reason - but that doesn't mean they dont have any merits as a story.

Resha



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3178

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mor Posted by aelfwina December 23, 2004 - 7:54:12 Topic ID# 3174
----- Original Message -----
From: Naresha
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: AW: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mortem recap




elanor of aquitania <elanor@codacode.net> wrote:
<snip> this would be for me a story to read only for its own merits even abandoned.


Best wishes Elanor



Well Elanor has voiced what I was trying to get at. There are stories that are massive works unto themselves but that haven't been updated in ages for whatever reason - but that doesn't mean they dont have any merits as a story.


I've only been lurking on the post-mortem so far. Yahoo won't let me in to vote on the polls for some reason. But I do want to comment on this.
When I very first started reading fanfics, I ended up getting sucked into a couple of unfinished WIPs. This put me off reading anything with "incomplete" for a long time. Now I will read them, but only if (A) I know the writer is unlikely to abandon the story from her previous track record or (B) enough chapters have been posted to make a pattern there and show it is not going to be abandoned.
That being said, not long ago, I accidentally broke my own rule. I followed some links to an archive that I seldom frequent, and started a lovely story, very well written indeed. Then I got to the third chapter, and realised "Uh-oh". Well, I sent a nice little review to the author, saying how nice the story was and hoped she'd update soon. And then I did a search and found her profile page.
And right there on her page in her own words, she said that she often left fics unfinished, and that basically she didn't care, and not to bother her to update, because she didn't want to hear it.

And I'm left sitting there wondering why she bothers to post the stories in the first place if she has so little regard for her readers.

So, I'd say "no" don't allow unfinished (as in abandoned) WIPs yes, as long as you keep the rule about updates, but abandoned, NO, not even if they write as well as JRRT himself!

Dreamflower
(Barbara)

Resha



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3179

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs Posted by Naresha December 23, 2004 - 8:01:28 Topic ID# 3175
chathollinn@comcast.net wrote:
First, most WIPs did not seem to tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end. They just reported episode after episode in an attempt to keep getting feedback.

Sorry!!! Just have to defend myself as someone who is presently writing a WIP. Methinks you must have read some dodgy WIPs! Not all of them are jus tlike that.

Second, they lacked discipline. The writing was mostly verbose, dialog-oriented ("Did too!" "Did not!" ad infinitum), and poorly organized.

Personally, I do not lack discipline. I write other stories as I write my WIP - and I take my time on my WIP because I want it to be good and aim to tell a story within a story.

I think writers owe their readers the commitment and discipline to think through a story, write it to completion, rewrite it as necessary, and then publish.

There are a lot of writers out there who do finish their WIPs! Some don't - but a lot do. I realise you are not generalising here, but sometimes RL does kick in and screw us authors around. I do not know of ANY author who does not consciously set out to not finish a story. We have a story to tell - we aim to tell the whole story. And sometimes, it is the input of the readers that acts as motivation for finishing.


Naresha
(who apologises profusely (and grovels for forgiveness) for getting on her soapbox in the first place and promises to burn it immediately to save from any future repeat offences.)



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3180

Re: AW: [MEFAwards] A couple days off, a couple days left. Post Mor Posted by Laura December 23, 2004 - 9:07:57 Topic ID# 3174
Breaking away from holiday madness to respond...

Naresha wrote:
>> Well Elanor has voiced what I was trying to get at. There are
>> stories that are massive works unto themselves but that haven't been
>> updated in ages for whatever reason - but that doesn't mean they
>> dont have any merits as a story.

Ditto over here. I'm incredibly fond of WIPs and Unfinished stories myself, actually. If they remain unfinished, my very overactive imagination has no problem finishing them off in my head. (Some day I'm going to do something about that...)

As the owner of several WIPs myself, I suppose I'm a bit prejudiced. I *do* understand what the rest of you are saying, though. It can be frustrating waiting for updates or finding that the story has been abandoned after the fourth chapter. But I agree with Naresha and Elanor in this. WIPs are stories just like the rest of the stories. Unfinished stories, yes, but it's a rare glimpse into the creative process as it unfolds. And I love that about them, even if we never get to see the conclusion.

Thundera

Msg# 3181

Unfinished stories (answer to Barbara) Posted by elanor of aquitania December 23, 2004 - 9:34:56 Topic ID# 3174
> That being said, not long ago, I accidentally broke my own
> rule. I followed some links to an archive that I seldom
> frequent, and started a lovely story, very well written
> indeed. Then I got to the third chapter, and realised
> "Uh-oh". Well, I sent a nice little review to the author,
> saying how nice the story was and hoped she'd update soon.
> And then I did a search and found her profile page.
> And right there on her page in her own words, she said that
> she often left fics unfinished, and that basically she didn't
> care, and not to bother her to update, because she didn't
> want to hear it.

Hi Barbara,
I think nobody would nominate such a short WIP or unfinished story. What I
thought about are huge stories of maybe 20 chapters.
There is more mass of words and creativity to review than in a
one page short story.

And I thought the problem for the reviewers is predominantly the length of
the WIP ;-)

But if you decide against WIPs and/or unfinished stories I will certainly
live on quite happily :-)

I only think, that WIPs or Unfinished Stories can be well worth the reading.
It depends on the nominator to judiciously nominate a good WIP or unfinished
story.

As they are an important feature of web writing culture I think them to be
important also for the reviews, but that is only my own opinion :-)

> So, I'd say "no" don't allow unfinished (as in abandoned) WIPs yes, > as
long as you keep the rule about updates, but abandoned, NO, not > even if
they write as well as JRRT himself!

Ummh, you surely allow me to disagree here ;-)

I think writers who write as good as JRRT are too seldom as that we should
not allow their work even if abandoned due to real life constraints. Again
my example "Messages" by Shakes (he writes not as good as JRRT though): for
sure he writes episodes, for sure he has no real story arc as he follows the
story line of LoTR, but he has character development, he has realistic
believable characters not warm and fluffy (or solely angsty) feeling
one-dimensional unrealistic characters, he shows us the military of Gondor
as it might have functioned, not just some unbelievable soldiers carousing
through Gondorian taverns. So if he had abandoned this story the story would
have been just as good as the story is now when he updated it in the
required time interval. I really really really see no difference in
reviewing a WIP or an unfinished story.

I have the feeling, which surely can be wrong, that many of you read with a
hope for a story end which fulfils your expectations. For me that is not the
point of reviewing fanfiction. For me the point is for the fanfiction
authors to see the readers' reactions and to improve writing accordingly and
for the reviewers to give recommendations to the public as well as feed back
for the author. So an unfinished story's author perhaps needs no feed back
anymore but the public still needs a review if the story is outstanding.
These are purely my own opinions that you will not change but which I think
not so important that I would even consider to retreat pouting into a corner
when you don't agree to them. Hey, tomorrow the Christmas tree will be
lighted!

I expect to see the abolishment of the section Unfinished Stories but I will
feel sorry for them. I personally like ere to read a well written unfinished
story than to read a technically and/or emotionally unsatisfying finished
story as I value the writing style and the story's content for itself and
the speech is for me far more important than a completed story line.

I think we should set more confidence into the nominators that they nominate
only good stories. Or would an author herself nominate an unfinished story?
Yes? Then let's make the provision "WIPs and Unfinished Stories are
forbidden to be nominated by the author". I just made the respective entry
into the database.

But we have as many different opinions here as we have minds and I knew that
my views count into the minority's part :-)

So, Merry Christmas to you all!
May you have some happy days
and may God uplift your spirits to him!

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 3182

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs - hi naresha Posted by chathollinn@comcast.net December 23, 2004 - 11:32:50 Topic ID# 3182
Hello, Naresha! You make some good points. I guess I did read some pretty bad stuff in the beginning. Anyway, I certainly was not referring to any of your works, or anyone else's that I'm aware of on the lists at MEFA or HASA.

I still don't see the attractions of writing a WIP though. Have WIP authors visualized the final scene and are writing toward it? If not how does one know when it is finished? Please pardon my dumb questions. I think I am imagining a WIP as an incomplete story where the author doesn't know the ending. But I can be taught! What is your idea of a WIP? No need to burn that soapbox. Best regards - Chathol-linn

-------------- Original message --------------


chathollinn@comcast.net wrote:
First, most WIPs did not seem to tell a story with a beginning, middle, and end. They just reported episode after episode in an attempt to keep getting feedback.

Sorry!!! Just have to defend myself as someone who is presently writing a WIP. Methinks you must have read some dodgy WIPs! Not all of them are jus tlike that.

Second, they lacked discipline. The writing was mostly verbose, dialog-oriented ("Did too!" "Did not!" ad infinitum), and poorly organized.

Personally, I do not lack discipline. I write other stories as I write my WIP - and I take my time on my WIP because I want it to be good and aim to tell a story within a story.

I think writers owe their readers the commitment and discipline to think through a story, write it to completion, rewrite it as necessary, and then publish.

There are a lot of writers out there who do finish their WIPs! Some don't - but a lot do. I realise you are not generalising here, but sometimes RL does kick in and screw us authors around. I do not know of ANY author who does not consciously set out to not finish a story. We have a story to tell - we aim to tell the whole story. And sometimes, it is the input of the readers that acts as motivation for finishing.


Naresha
(who apologises profusely (and grovels for forgiveness) for getting on her soapbox in the first place and promises to burn it immediately to save from any future repeat offences.)



~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to
U.S./Canada




Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3183

PM WIP vs. Unfinished Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 23, 2004 - 12:12:46 Topic ID# 3183
A general answer to the points brought up. Or several general answers...

To WIP or not to WIP.

As a rule, I'm almost exclusively a non-WIPer. I did write one story as a
WIP and as an experiment. I did know how it would end. And the WIPing did
provide some encouragement. It didn't make the story any better though.
And it wasn't juicy reviews for the most part that I got. Just the
encouraging kind.

I personally don't like reading a story then having it not end. For reasons
I've stated before. They're not finished for one thing. But also, by the
time an author updates I may have read 300 stories in between and not
remember where I left off. And some are so wonderfully angsty that they
become downright painful waiting for the next chapter....

And if that chapter NEVER comes? I do feel cheated. I have a story that I
started with some other writers and it's been abandoned though someday I
hope to pick it up myself and finish it. But it's never been posted! So
it's not driving anyone nuts but me.

To Elanor's point about a wonderful unfinished story vs a mediocre finished
one...no one should be nominating mediocre stories to begin with. Finished
or not. Don't nominate a story just because it's there. Nominate a story
because you think it's great.

I can play devil's advocate on both sides of this. Yes, a short abandoned
story can be great. I once read a wonderful, hilarious 3-chapter story
called The Glass Coffin. It was never finished. And my thoughts: What a
shame.

Minka writes some great torture, but you can't rely on her to finish a story
and so I wouldn't call any of her un-updated stories great.

But it comes down to this: This was voted on. Why limit WIPs to those
updated in a year if we allow those that weren't? Even under a different
term of "unfinished." "A rose by any other name...." We (those who
exercised their right to vote) voted to limit them. So we limit them.
There will be no Unfinished category.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3184

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs - hi naresha Posted by sulriel December 23, 2004 - 12:13:46 Topic ID# 3182
HI Chathol-linn,

I'll comment, even though I may not have a real answer for you,
because I've had some confusion in this area.

**in my mind** a WIP is an incomplete story. I used to read them,
when I first discovered fanfic, but more recently only read WIPs that
I beta, because of my level of frustration in an incomplete story
outweighs my enjoyment.

In my own works. I have a general plot outline before I start
detailing the chapters. IOW, my works in progress already have a
beginning, middle, end, character growth and plot twists, before the
first chapter is posted ... It's just that it takes me some time to
flesh out the chapters. (I recently took my current IP fic offline
because it'd been so long without an update because of RL
constraints.)

but I've learned that other people don't work that way. I think some
people start stories and let the plot develop as they go. I find
that difficult to read, but I think many people enjoy them. I also
don't watch the ever-popular soap operas on TV, which proves it is
more of a personal quirk than any problem in the genre.

so I think there must be two kinds of WIPs. .. ones that are actually
dangling and unfinished, and those that are more episodic in
nature. .... and I wonder now if some of us are talking about the
different ones in the same conversation without defining the
difference. (?)

Sulriel.

Msg# 3185

Re: PM WIP vs. Unfinished Posted by aelfwina December 23, 2004 - 22:29:37 Topic ID# 3183
I started a lot of controversy, I guess, but I'd like to give my definition of the difference: a Work in Progress is just that "in progress"; it recieves updates at decent intervals, and the author plans to bring it to a close after however many chapters it takes to get to the end. I myself post them, and I update as fast as I can get them typed into the computer.
An "Unfinished" is one that has sat around for months, and the author has no intention of dusting it off, or if she does, it's of the vague "someday" variety.
The only way I'd ever post an unfinished is if something physically prevented me from posting the end: computer blows up, I die, world ends, etc.
It's very rude, at the least, and inconsiderate to the reader to start something you aren't going to finish. IMHO.
Which is why I agree with the update rule on WIPs. (Although I would probably make it six months instead of a year if it were me. But a year is very fair and more than reasonable.)
Dreamflower
(Barbara)
----- Original Message -----
From: Ainaechoiriel
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:14 PM
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM WIP vs. Unfinished



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3186

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs - hi naresha Posted by chathollinn@comcast.net December 23, 2004 - 22:41:01 Topic ID# 3182
Hello, Sulriel. Your point about there being two kinds of WIPs is well-taken. And the way you describe your writing style, it doesn't really sound as if they are WIPs. Thanks for clarifying! Regards - Chathol-linn
-------------- Original message --------------

HI Chathol-linn,

I'll comment, even though I may not have a real answer for you,
because I've had some confusion in this area.

**in my mind** a WIP is an incomplete story. I used to read them,
when I first discovered fanfic, but more recently only read WIPs that
I beta, because of my level of frustration in an incomplete story
outweighs my enjoyment.

In my own works. I have a general plot outline before I start
detailing the chapters. IOW, my works in progress already have a
beginning, middle, end, character growth and plot twists, before the
first chapter is posted ... It's just that it takes me some time to
flesh out the chapters. (I recently took my current IP fic offline
because it'd been so long without an update because of RL
constraints.)

but I've learned that other people don't work that way. I think some
people start stories and let the plot develop as they go. I find
that difficult to read, but I think many people enjoy them. I also
don't watch the ever-popular soap operas on TV, which proves it is
more of a personal quirk than any problem in the genre.

so I think there must be two kinds of WIPs. .. ones that are actually
dangling and unfinished, and those that are more episodic in
nature. .... and I wonder now if some of us are talking about the
different ones in the same conversation without defining the
difference. (?)

Sulriel.





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to
U.S./Canada







Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3187

Re: Unfinished vs WIPs - hi naresha Posted by Naresha December 24, 2004 - 5:14:20 Topic ID# 3182
chathollinn@comcast.net wrote:
Hello, Naresha! You make some good points. I guess I did read some pretty bad stuff in the beginning. Anyway, I certainly was not referring to any of your works, or anyone else's that I'm aware of on the lists at MEFA or HASA.

That's okay - I know I got pretty worked up about the whole thing! :-P

I still don't see the attractions of writing a WIP though. Have WIP authors visualized the final scene and are writing toward it? If not how does one know when it is finished? Please pardon my dumb questions. I think I am imagining a WIP as an incomplete story where the author doesn't know the ending. But I can be taught! What is your idea of a WIP? No need to burn that soapbox. Best regards - Chathol-linn

No such thing as a dumb question as my 4th grade teacher used to say! I'm sure you're not the only one thinking them, you're just the only one brave enough to ask them! Feel free to ask me as many dumb questions as you wish!

Okay... What I see as a WIP is what it says - it's a work in progress. Like I said before, I have never met an author that set out to consciously NOT finish a work. When I think WIP - I don't see a story without an ending. I see a story that the author wants to share as soon as possible. And perhaps they are not sure if they are a good writer or not - I know a lot of authors who aren't native English speakers are never confident that they are capable of writing a plausible, easily readible story. I know of a few WIPs (but can't think of any atm!) that are published as they are written because the author is looking for reassurance and reason to continue writing. Plus there is a certain lure to reading a story that is still being written. It means that the reader can have an impact on the author. Sometimes, a particular piece of feedback, or a comment can change a way the author looks at character or the story. I know I often get tunnel vision to a degree - I get so used to
seeing things MY way that I begin to forget that not everyone will see it that way. I have had many a debate with my beta over endings and character traits. She's had to fight hard to win some of those debates because I've been so determined NOT to see things another way.

I don't necessarily have the final scene of a story visualised. In fact, I have only written one story that I DID have it visualised but then changed it after many months of strenuous disagreement with my beta. But what I DO usually have is some idea of several things that I plan to have happen along the way. As I write towards these things, I may change the ideas either a little or a lot. Sometimes I have one or two endings in mind, but I really don't like to have these set in stone before I get to the ending because I find that my initial idea never remains 100% true to form as I work through. For exalmple, my WIP Changing Times was never meant to advance past the story - Competitive Behaviour! But it kicked up all sorts of new ideas that I just had to write!

Like I said, an author may not have an ending, but they may have several events. And strange as it sounds, some stories do write themselves to an extent and you can't help but change things along the way. And these things don't always allow you to have the ending you originally thought of. It pays to be flexible as an author - if you aren't the story isn't going to be NEARLY as good. You become so fixed in doing things in a particular way that you trudge on even when things AREN'T working like you thought they would.

Erm... Did that help? At all?! Feel free to email me (offlist maybe north_shore_fruitcake @ yahoo. com .au) if you have any more questions. All my IM nicks are at the bottom of this mail.
Naresha.





~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3188

Re: PM WIP vs. Unfinished Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 25, 2004 - 1:14:54 Topic ID# 3183
Well, I think a year is okay because I do know several authors who's WIPs I
began reading way back when, and they haven't updated in over a year. Not
because they don't intend to update but because RL or grad school slapped
them in the head. It is lengthy, I admit, and it is frustrating to wait
that long or to try to remember what happened in the previous chapter. But
they are good stories and I still hope that those authors will update them
sometime soon. (Hint, hint! You know who you are!)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: aelfwina [mailto:aelfwina@cableone.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:46 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM WIP vs. Unfinished


I started a lot of controversy, I guess, but I'd like to give my definition
of the difference: a Work in Progress is just that "in progress"; it
recieves updates at decent intervals, and the author plans to bring it to a
close after however many chapters it takes to get to the end. I myself post
them, and I update as fast as I can get them typed into the computer.
An "Unfinished" is one that has sat around for months, and the author has no
intention of dusting it off, or if she does, it's of the vague "someday"
variety.
The only way I'd ever post an unfinished is if something physically
prevented me from posting the end: computer blows up, I die, world ends,
etc.
It's very rude, at the least, and inconsiderate to the reader to start
something you aren't going to finish. IMHO.
Which is why I agree with the update rule on WIPs. (Although I would
probably make it six months instead of a year if it were me. But a year is
very fair and more than reasonable.) Dreamflower
(Barbara)
----- Original Message -----
From: Ainaechoiriel
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:14 PM
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM WIP vs. Unfinished



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3189

New poll for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 25, 2004 - 1:31:49 Topic ID# 3
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

Start the awards year in April rather
than May so we finish in September
rather than October?

o Yes
o No
o No opinion


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1565107

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Msg# 3190

PM - a technicality regarding WIPs Posted by Marta December 25, 2004 - 17:33:16 Topic ID# 3190
Here's a scenario that I think we might want to consider.

[X] is a WIP. [X] was nominated as a WIP this year. It is not complete
during nominating season but the nominator (or the author, if we
contact them to verify) has reason to believe it will be completed
during reading season.

According to the current rules [X] can only run twice, once as a WIP
and once as a finished piece. [X] already ran as a WIP last year; can
it run as a finished piece this year (assuming it's actually complete
by voting season)?

Marta

Msg# 3191

Re: PM - a technicality regarding WIPs Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 25, 2004 - 20:27:53 Topic ID# 3190
No, technically, it has to be finished by April 30th (or March 31st if we
move the year up a month) to be eligible in year B, because it was already
nominated as a WIP in year A. It can't even be nominated again until it's
completed. So it would be eligible the next year (C).

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 5:33 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM - a technicality regarding WIPs



Here's a scenario that I think we might want to consider.

[X] is a WIP. [X] was nominated as a WIP this year. It is not complete
during nominating season but the nominator (or the author, if we contact
them to verify) has reason to believe it will be completed during reading
season.

According to the current rules [X] can only run twice, once as a WIP and
once as a finished piece. [X] already ran as a WIP last year; can it run as
a finished piece this year (assuming it's actually complete by voting
season)?

Marta





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->


Yahoo! Groups Links

Msg# 3192

On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 26, 2004 - 3:08:16 Topic ID# 3192
Can WiPs and Unfinished stories be good? Yes, absolutely. I can point
you to some that are good, or that were good WiPs before they were
finished. Am I biased as an author who does post WiPs? It's always
possible, but I've tried to include reasons for my position that have
stand independently of my status as an "interested" party.

The fundamental issue here seems to be one of the worth of a WiP,
since it's not as if they're competing with finished stories in these
awards or that, given the number of subcategories, this one creates an
intolerable administrative burden or that they're not clearly marked
for what they are. This worth (or lack of it) seems to have at least
two bases. There seems to be a notion that one can never judge a WiP
properly because the story may take a right turn to plot derailment
(and so invalidate a reader's laudatory comments, and who likes to
feel embarrassed to have praised something that ultimately went sour?
Or is it the notion that there is a totally objective standard of
worth of a story, inhering only in the finished product, that is
raising its head yet again?) or else that the author is violating some
sort of ethical duty owed the reader. I'll deal with the second issue
first.

One can argue that by posting a story, the author is thereby making a
promise to readers that s/he will complete it and therefore the reader
is not obliged to respond until such a time as the work is finished.
This is what I shall call the "social contract" theory of feedback.
Personally, I find this to be a weak basis for saying that a story is
not worth my time and effort to give feedback. Imo, feedback, like the
story itself, is a gift; you give it or you don't based on whether
you're moved by what you've read. I've read plenty of WiPs/Unfinished
stories that moved me to give feedback and which I would be sorry not
to have read. In these cases, giving feedback on them has been a very
enjoyable part of the reading experience.

The other issue is more complex, since there is a sense in which we
can't judge the work properly until it is complete and we've seen its
overall shape. I don't disagree. What I do disagree with is that a
WiP, competing only against other WiPs, should not compete because of
this. I am certainly capable of deciding that up until this point, the
story is interesting, entertaining, suspenseful, makes me want more,
etc. Some WiPs I can see are already falling apart at the seams--if
this were impossible to judge before seeing the finished product,
Tolkien would never have revised the first few chapters of FoTR
something like four times before continuing. It is very possible to
make judgments of quality for unfinished stories. They won't be the
same judgments we make for finished stories, but we're not asking WiPs
to be judged against finished stories, so the problem of
incommensurable standards doesn't arise.

Of course, some stories I fall out of love with by the time they're
complete, but this has equally happened to me in the case of finished
stories that I read only as completed stories. This phenomenon doesn't
mean my comments about a WiP at a previous time were not sincerely
meant. If I'm embarrassed by them or annoyed with the author for
having gone and messed up a perfectly good story, well, it happens.
Doesn't mean my comments hitherto were not worth making since they
were a judgment based on the evidence available to that date. And I
think we've all had the discussion about objective standards before.
Again, I don't know if either of these two positions actually play
into the argument against the worth of admitting WiPs to the awards,
but in case they do, I'd argue they aren't good reasons for barring WiPs.


Finally, if there is just a vague sense that WiPs are just inherently
unworthy of the investment of my time and effort to read them, let
alone write feedback, let me just raise a cautionary finger and point
to the Silm. Most of the Silm and HoMe (to say nothing of the aptly
named "Unfinished Tales") fall into the category of a permanent
WiP/Unfinished story, and yet we obviously do think they're worth
reading and writing about, and writing about at far greater length
than a few lines of commentary. So the notion that WiPs are inherently
inferior and not worth our attention is, imo, not well attested to, if
we go by the habits of this particular fandom. It certainly is not
attested to by our love of the on-going serial, another category that
should cause problems for us if we find WiPs not worth our time and
effort to read and think about, but obviously doesn't since we watch
them week after week on television and write fannish letters of
admiration about them before they are finished (if they are finished).

So yes, let WiPs and Unfinished stories compete against each other, I
say, and if they're not some readers' cup of tea, then they don't have
to vote for them or bother about them. After all, some people only
voted in certain categories based on what their interests
were--there's no reason that I can see why WiPs or Unfinished stories
should be treated any differently. If anything, I'm even more
interested in seeing an Unfinished/WiP story compete in an award 1/3
of whose purpose is to introduce readers to new reading material that
we might otherwise not read. Given that WiPs/Unfinished stories are
often barred from fandom competitions, this may be the only chance
that one has of seeing them evaluated "competitively", that is to say,
on the basis of writing comments that justify themselves (and so also
the story) to other readers.

Dwim

P.S. Since the WiP/Unfinished distinction seems to have been accepted
and will be used next year, does this mean an Unfinished story can run
three times? Once as "Unfinished", once as "WiP", and once as a
completed story? An Unfinished story can be updated, after all, and
that would mean it was eligible as a WiP the next year, and all WiPs
are allowed to run as completed stories. Apologies if this has already
been hashed out. I'm just a tad bit behind, here...

Msg# 3193

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by Marta December 26, 2004 - 15:10:49 Topic ID# 3192
Good points all around, Dwim. I just wanted to reply to one little bit
at the end:

<snip>
> P.S. Since the WiP/Unfinished distinction seems to have been
accepted
> and will be used next year, does this mean an Unfinished story can
run
> three times? Once as "Unfinished", once as "WiP", and once as a
> completed story? An Unfinished story can be updated, after all, and
> that would mean it was eligible as a WiP the next year, and all WiPs
> are allowed to run as completed stories. Apologies if this has
already
> been hashed out. I'm just a tad bit behind, here...

My instinct is that a piece should be allowed to run twice: once as a
WIP *or* an unfinished (but not both), and once more as a finished
story. I think this is more in keeping with the spirit of the original
distinction.

This year we had complete and WIP stories. But WIP stories were really
incomplete - they did not need to have been updated for any length of
time. Next year we are talking about subdividing incomplete (what we
called WIP) into two subcategories: those that have been updated in
hte last twelve months (WIPs) and those that have not (unfinished).
That's why I feel the way I do. But I'm certainly up to being
convinced otherwise!

Marta

Msg# 3194

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by bljean@aol.com December 27, 2004 - 12:19:24 Topic ID# 3192
Fascinating essay on WIPs, Dwim.

I must admit, I'm indebted to those who read my WIPs and comment along the
way. All too often their comments give me the heart to continue, when I'm ready
to chuck writing altogether, and sometimes their comments give me new insight
into a character, or an idea that wasn't in the original outline that I'm
happy to incorporate.

I'm afraid I would have quit writing LOTR fanfic a year or so ago if I hadn't
been receiving comments all along. I started out writing for my own pleasure,
and while I continue to do so, sometimes my own pleasure is not enough to
sustain the effort.

I second the comments that WIPs can be judged on their own merits. There are
a couple that I read that I long to see completed, one of which hasn't been
updated in over a year. I'll be surprised if the author ever returns to it. But
what is in existence is promising and well-written. Perhaps such should not be
compared to completed works, but I can see WIPs being judged against each
other.

Those who will be "judging" WIPs or "voting" with their comments are those
who are inclined to read WIPs, I suppose. If it's not your cup of tea, don't
drink it. Limit your reading to completed stories and vote on those!

I must admit that with the time constraints that hampered me this year, the
only ballot I read all the way through and voted on every story (well, stories
rated G to PG-13) was the Hobbits ballot. I made an effort to read and comment
on the drabbles on some of the other ballots. But I think a category of WIPs,
not measured against completed works, ought not to put anybody's nose out of
joint.

Lin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3195

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 10:37:31 Topic ID# 3192
GRRRRRRRRR!!!! I hate Yahooo!!!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system. I am posting via the web
because once again, I can't reach Starbase.

I had just finished my very long reply to Dwim's post and hit Send
when I got a "Page not Found" and the whole post disappeared.

I am NOT going to retype it. I'm going to summarize:

WIPs are eligible. I never entertained the thought that they weren't.
Unfinished, technically, means the same thing as "incomplete".
Incomplete stories are eligible if they were updated within 12 months
of the beginning of Nomination Season 2005.

There seems to be a misconception that there will be an Unfinished
subcategory this year. There will not. And if there ever is in the
future, it will not be called Unfinished. That would require
explanation to anyone who wasn't privy to this whole
discussion. "Never finished" would be more accurate. Get out your
thesauruses and try something better. And even then, it will be put
to a vote.

Because it comes down to this: Those who voted to exclude stories
that weren't updated did so because they'd rather not read them. You
can't get a vote if no one reads your story. It may be a great story
but if you can't get the reader there, you won't get any votes. This
is the same for any other bias out there. I don't like romance
stories. I would be very surprised if any romance story ever gets a
vote from me. I just don't read them. Many do, however, so it was
never put to a vote to exclude them or include them. I'm sure if I
did put it to a poll, I would lose. Actually, I wouldn't vote to
exclude them because I know a lot of people like to read them.

But WIPs were put to a poll, and the decision was made.

The only way a "never finished" story can be nominated in the awards
for 2005 is if it was last updated less than 12 months before the
beginning of Nomination Season 2005.

And there was another general rant about so few people voting: If you
don't vote on a poll, you have no say in the decision. Because
voting is how you have your say.

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3196

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 10:39:50 Topic ID# 3192
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
>
> This year we had complete and WIP stories. But WIP stories were
really
> incomplete - they did not need to have been updated for any length
of
> time. Next year we are talking about subdividing incomplete (what
we
> called WIP) into two subcategories: those that have been updated in
> hte last twelve months (WIPs) and those that have not (unfinished).
> That's why I feel the way I do. But I'm certainly up to being
> convinced otherwise!

The misconception again. "Unfinished" were discussed. There was NO
decision to include them. There are not two subcategories for them
subdividing incomplete stories. The vote was to exclude those not
updated in a year. That means we exclude the others.

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3197

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 10:46:28 Topic ID# 3192
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, bljean@a... wrote:
> Fascinating essay on WIPs, Dwim.

It was that. More snippage to follow:

> I'm afraid I would have quit writing LOTR fanfic a year or so ago
if I hadn't
> been receiving comments all along. I started out writing for my own
pleasure,
> and while I continue to do so, sometimes my own pleasure is not
enough to
> sustain the effort.

Yes, that's true. Sometime we need some outside encouragement. I
think if I was a hermit stuck alone on an island with an endless
stack of paper and pens, I'd still write. Even if no one else ever
read it. But when they do, and when they discuss it with me, it
helps me to keep writing. But then, that's why I have beta readers.

> I second the comments that WIPs can be judged on their own merits.
There are
> a couple that I read that I long to see completed, one of which
hasn't been
> updated in over a year. I'll be surprised if the author ever
returns to it. But
> what is in existence is promising and well-written. Perhaps such
should not be
> compared to completed works, but I can see WIPs being judged
against each
> other.

I never entertained the thoughts that WIPs would be excluded
altogether or that they would run head-to-head with completed
stories. So have no fears there.

> Those who will be "judging" WIPs or "voting" with their comments
are those
> who are inclined to read WIPs, I suppose. If it's not your cup of
tea, don't
> drink it. Limit your reading to completed stories and vote on those!

Bingo!

Yet there was a vote to exclude incomplete stories not updated in a
year and the vote passed. There are two remedies for this for anyone
upset by that rule: 1) bring it up again next year and see if you can
get it repealed--by a vote again and 2) encourage the writer of said
story to write more! There's nothing keeping anyone here from
writing feedback directly to an author all year long. Just because
stories that haven't been updated in a year aren't eligible doesn't
mean you can't read them and encourage the writer if you think they
are good. Who knows? Maybe the writer will decide to finish them.

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3198

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by Naresha December 28, 2004 - 11:09:36 Topic ID# 3192
*Resha begs forgiveness* Sorry Ainaechoiriel! Didn't mean to start all this!
:-P *thinks maybe she'll keep ideas on similar topics to herself in future!*


ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

There seems to be a misconception that there will be an Unfinished subcategory this year.

~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha


---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3199

New poll for MEFAwards Posted by MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com December 28, 2004 - 11:48:50 Topic ID# 3
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

What will our more standard size
banners be? Choices can be viewed at
http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/ba
nnersizes.html. (Posting that link
here will probably add a space in
there. Delete it.) (We may round up
the winning banner to an even number of
pixels for width and height.)

o 468W x 60H (ex. ad)
o 250W x 73H (ex. Ff.net logo)
o 200W x 148H (ex. Best of Trek)
o 350W x 100H (ex. Story of the Month)
o 175W x 155H (ex. Angel Hon. Mention)
o 173W x 84H (ex. Award Winner)
o 291W x 152H (ex. Witch King Award)
o 212W x 130H (ex. Kings of Gondor and Arnor)
o 400W x 129H (ex. Mayor or Hobbiton)
o 300W x 117H (ex. Indiana Jones)


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1568751

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Msg# 3200

OT: Re: Unfinished vs WIPs - hi naresha Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 28, 2004 - 16:32:47 Topic ID# 3182
Hi Chathol-lin,

>I still don't see the attractions of writing a WIP though.

Well, firstly, I think the question you're asking is really "What is
the attraction of *posting* a WIP?", since every story goes through
the WiP stage. But having split that hair, in response to your question

"Have WIP authors visualized the final scene and are writing toward it?"

I'm sure it varies with each author, and may also vary for any one
author among several WiPs. For myself, yes, I do have an end in mind
for all of the WiPs that I am currently writing and which are publicly
available somewhere on the web. What is looser is the route that gets
me to that end, and of course, things do evolve and may actually
change the ending.

> If not how does one know when it is finished?

Well, since I do have endings in mind and various waypoints, I tend to
know when I've reached the end, even if the end has changed over the
course of the writing.

> Please pardon my dumb questions. I think I am imagining a WIP as an
incomplete story where the author doesn't know the ending. But I can
be taught! What is your idea of a WIP? No need to burn that soapbox.


For me, a WiP is simply a story whose overall plan I know (or at
least, I think I know, unless further work shows me a different,
better finish *or shows me I have fundamentally screwed up somewhere*)
and that I post as I write it. One of the attractions of writing a WiP
is that sometimes your readers will be very clever in their
interpretation of what you've written, such that you say "Ooh, you
know what? S/he's right. And now I can use that three chapters down
the line when I get to the part concerning X." Another is that it does
help one through the times when you just feel like throwing up your
hands because your obligation to the reader is not an abstract
one--there are actual readers out there who want to know what happens
next. And of course, it is nice to have encouragement as you go.

I think the case of the WiP is *loosely* analogous to the case of
slash insofar as 90% of WiPs are awful *because the author doesn't
have a story to tell*, just as with 90% of slash (or 90% of any genre,
really). Having a story to tell is the real issue, and that is why the
90% of bad WiPs out there come out in pieces--it's because they never
had a coherent form in the first place.

So IMO, it's not the form of a WiP per se that determines the worth or
quality of the work, it's whether or not there's a plot that the
author is working on in the first place. True, plotlessness takes the
form of a WiP, but only because it has no other choice--it inherently
can't be completed since there's nothing to complete, and even
"completed" stories without plots are like this--we always come away
thinking that the story didn't end properly, that the story was
incomplete and lacking in some serious way, even though "The End" is
written at the bottom of the page. But someone with a story to tell
can do it in serial fashion. The true frustration of the WiP comes
from those stories which are unfolding nicely and then stop, not from
the myriad unworkable "stories"

Dwim




Best regards - Chathol-linn
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>
> chathollinn@c... wrote:
> First, most WIPs did not seem to tell a story with a beginning,
middle, and end. They just reported episode after episode in an
attempt to keep getting feedback.
>
> Sorry!!! Just have to defend myself as someone who is presently
writing a WIP. Methinks you must have read some dodgy WIPs! Not all
of them are jus tlike that.
>
> Second, they lacked discipline. The writing was mostly verbose,
dialog-oriented ("Did too!" "Did not!" ad infinitum), and poorly
organized.
>
> Personally, I do not lack discipline. I write other stories as I
write my WIP - and I take my time on my WIP because I want it to be
good and aim to tell a story within a story.
>
> I think writers owe their readers the commitment and discipline to
think through a story, write it to completion, rewrite it as
necessary, and then publish.
>
> There are a lot of writers out there who do finish their WIPs! Some
don't - but a lot do. I realise you are not generalising here, but
sometimes RL does kick in and screw us authors around. I do not know
of ANY author who does not consciously set out to not finish a story.
We have a story to tell - we aim to tell the whole story. And
sometimes, it is the input of the readers that acts as motivation for
finishing.
>
>
> Naresha
> (who apologises profusely (and grovels for forgiveness) for getting
on her soapbox in the first place and promises to burn it immediately
to save from any future repeat offences.)
>
>
>
> ~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~
>
> AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@h...
> ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
> Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
> Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/
>
> My Website! Slash Me Happy
> http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy
>
> http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Get unlimited calls to
> U.S./Canada
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Msg# 3201

Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 16:50:10 Topic ID# 3192
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Naresha
<north_shore_fruitcake@y...> wrote:
> *Resha begs forgiveness* Sorry Ainaechoiriel! Didn't mean to
start all this!
> :-P *thinks maybe she'll keep ideas on similar topics to herself
in future!*

Don't think that! That's what Post Mortem is for. For new ideas.
Just because they won't all go into affect doesn't mean they
shouldn't be brought up. And "unfinished" may be brought up again in
the future, but with a different title. Give it some thought and
bring it up again if you really want it.

Go and look at the PM database and see how many ideas were taken into
affect. There are actually quite a few changes for next year.

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3202

PM suggestion: just found this one in the database Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 16:50:43 Topic ID# 3202
"WIPs and Unfinished Stories are forbidden to be nominated by author"

My honest first thought on this one is "Why?"

Discuss please, though we can delete the "unfinished" part:

"WIPs are forbidden to be nominated by author"

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3203

Another suggestion Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 16:54:34 Topic ID# 3203
We sort of talked about this one but didn't come up with anything
specific:

Category limits: Up to 8 X 2 for stories? 20 makes a category if
appropriate?

In other words there are two suggestions here.

1) change what makes a story category viable by requiring 8 stories
by 2 authors. Or even three authors.

2) An upper limit of 20 stories, meaning that if an appropriate
subcategory reaches 21 stories, we seek to make it its own category.
If it can't be its own category, we might seek to subdivide it more.

Is 20 too low? 25? 30? ASC is 50, but I don't think we've ever
gotten that high here.

--Ainaechoiriel

Msg# 3204

Re: PM suggestion: just found this one in the database Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 28, 2004 - 17:18:43 Topic ID# 3202
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...> wrote:
>
>
> "WIPs and Unfinished Stories are forbidden to be nominated by author"
>
> My honest first thought on this one is "Why?"

Put me down as seconding that puzzled reaction.

If it's to cut down on the possibility of bias before the reading
actually begins, then we should logically ban authors from nominating
their own stories, period. But I'm not really in favor of this, since
most competitions rely on people entering themselves.

So my position: if you've got something you *want* to have compete,
and nobody is nominating it, enter it yourself and see what happens.

Dwim

Msg# 3205

Re: Another suggestion Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 28, 2004 - 17:23:53 Topic ID# 3203
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...> wrote:
>
> We sort of talked about this one but didn't come up with anything
> specific:
>
> Category limits: Up to 8 X 2 for stories? 20 makes a category if
> appropriate?
>
> In other words there are two suggestions here.
>
> 1) change what makes a story category viable by requiring 8 stories
> by 2 authors. Or even three authors.

Hm. 8x2 sounds workable, since I'd guess there will be more entries
next year as word spreads.

> 2) An upper limit of 20 stories, meaning that if an appropriate
> subcategory reaches 21 stories, we seek to make it its own category.
> If it can't be its own category, we might seek to subdivide it more.
>
> Is 20 too low? 25? 30? ASC is 50, but I don't think we've ever
> gotten that high here.

I don't know, honestly. I'm terrible with this sort of thing, and I'm
also unsure what the response will be next year. Part of me wants to
say just leave that number open until we see what happens next year,
and then make an administrative announcement around the middle or even
the end of nominations season (when all we procratinating type people
go into overdrive with the last-minute nominations) based on the
average number of entries subcategories actually have. But I can
appreciate that it would be nice to have that settled and finalized
ahead of time.

Dwim

Msg# 3206

Re: PM suggestion: just found this one in the database Posted by sulriel December 28, 2004 - 17:29:06 Topic ID# 3202
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
>
>
> "WIPs and Unfinished Stories are forbidden to be nominated by
author"
>
> My honest first thought on this one is "Why?"
>
> Discuss please, though we can delete the "unfinished" part:
>
> "WIPs are forbidden to be nominated by author"
>
> --Ainaechoiriel


I'd vote 'no' on this one.

I *think* the thought behind this was that only the 'better'(?)read-
worthy WIPs would be nom'd, but my feeling is that it'd be confusing
and hard to police.

Msg# 3207

Re: Another suggestion Posted by sulriel December 28, 2004 - 17:30:35 Topic ID# 3203
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:
>
> We sort of talked about this one but didn't come up with anything
> specific:
>
> Category limits: Up to 8 X 2 for stories? 20 makes a category if
> appropriate?
>
> In other words there are two suggestions here.
>
> 1) change what makes a story category viable by requiring 8 stories
> by 2 authors. Or even three authors.
>
> 2) An upper limit of 20 stories, meaning that if an appropriate
> subcategory reaches 21 stories, we seek to make it its own
category. > If it can't be its own category, we might seek to
subdivide it more.
>


I think that a minimum of eight with three authors, and a maximum of
25 per category would be reasonable.

Msg# 3208

AW: [MEFAwards] PM suggestion: just found this one in the database Posted by elanor of aquitania December 28, 2004 - 20:33:45 Topic ID# 3202
> "WIPs and Unfinished Stories are forbidden to be nominated by author"
>
> My honest first thought on this one is "Why?"
>
> Discuss please, though we can delete the "unfinished" part:
>
> "WIPs are forbidden to be nominated by author"
>
> --Ainaechoiriel

This resulted from the WIP/unfinished story discussion on 23-Dec-2004:

<cite> I think we should set more confidence into the nominators that they
nominate
only good stories. Or would an author herself nominate an unfinished story?
Yes? Then let's make the provision "WIPs and Unfinished Stories are
forbidden to be nominated by the author". I just made the respective entry
into the database. </cite>

As there was/is so much rancour against WIPs and abandoned stories
I thought this to be a means to put a cap on unfinished stories in the first
stages
of their fabrication. It should function as a means to reduce the inflow of
the apparently unwanted unfinished stories that I would have liked to be
allowed even if abandoned.

But this point is not dear to me, in contrast to others already nixed ;-) .
Best wishes and a happy new Year!
Elanor

Msg# 3209

AW: [MEFAwards] Another suggestion (upper and lower limit) Posted by elanor of aquitania December 28, 2004 - 20:49:27 Topic ID# 3203
> We sort of talked about this one but didn't come up with anything
> specific:
>
> Category limits: Up to 8 X 2 for stories? 20 makes a category if
> appropriate?
>
> In other words there are two suggestions here.
>
> 1) change what makes a story category viable by requiring 8 stories
> by 2 authors. Or even three authors.

I would go for 5 stories by 3 authors.
As this is not offered: 8 stories by 3 authors.
Because there are three awards per category I would like to see 3 authors.
As some categories are very sparsely populated I go for the smallest
number offered.

>
> 2) An upper limit of 20 stories, meaning that if an appropriate
> subcategory reaches 21 stories, we seek to make it its own category.
> If it can't be its own category, we might seek to subdivide it more.
>
> Is 20 too low? 25? 30? ASC is 50, but I don't think we've ever
> gotten that high here.

I would go for 20, the lowest number offered, as I would set the limit even
lower ;-)
because I prefer a more even distribution of story numbers per award getting
category.
IMO the awards should weigh as much the same as possible.
[That would normally require that I should prefer an higher lower limit (see
above),
but the sparsely population of many categories counters this wish.]

Best wishes for a happy New Year!
Elanor

Msg# 3210

Re: Another suggestion (upper and lower limit) Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 21:45:05 Topic ID# 3203
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:52 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Another suggestion (upper and lower limit)

>
> 1) change what makes a story category viable by requiring 8 stories by
> 2 authors. Or even three authors.

>I would go for 5 stories by 3 authors.
As this is not offered: 8 stories by 3 authors.
Because there are three awards per category I would like to see 3 authors.
As some categories are very sparsely populated I go for the smallest number
offered.

True we did have some trouble even getting some categories viable at 5
stories, didn't we? Maybe we should keep it at 5 this year and see if the
nominations go up, making it more feasible that we go up to 8 the next year
after