Yahoo Forum Archive

I copied these straight from the MEFAStaff group, using the Export and
Import Data options. Note, because they export and import with a comma
delimiter, all commas in titles or authors were replaced with semicolons so
that they would import into the right columns.

An interesting note, almost all of the ties came down to total number of
characters to break. One was even decided by the count of just 1 character!


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> So, here's a topic: Author comments. They're not as easy to write

as story

> comments, especially when there are multiple nominations for teh

same

> author. Now, if we continue to include author comments, I wouldn't

want to

> limit them because how one writes humor is different from how one

writes

> drama, etc.
>
> So, any suggestions? Should we take them out? Should we leave them

in?

> What should we do?
>

I agree, authors' comments are a problem. I think I wrote over a
hundred story reviews but certainly less than ten author reviews. It's
particularly hard in two scenariors: when the ame author had pieces in
several categories (Zimraphel and Lindelea jump to mind, though I'm
sure there were others). I could really like such authors but not be
able to give them as many votes in each category because I would have
to write twice or however many times as much.

It's also hard to write where an author just has one entry in a
category. I know I found myself not sure what to say about an author
because I had already said it in my story review.

My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it
once. (This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose;
I think a lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would
have probably reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category
to review them in and so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I
know, but I think having all the authors together would really help.

Marta

I have posted a 2004 PostMortem database. It has only three fields.
Members can add records, but they cannot edit or delte them.

If you have a topic you'd like discussed (mainly for changes. What did work
can just be posted to the list as it probably won't require any changes),
add a record by filling out the first field: Topic in a nutshell.

Then make a post here. I'll check on the database every once in awhile and
if we don't have any decision on a topic, I'll bring it back up.

So, I've already brought up Author Comments.

I also want to bring up this proposed change: Next year, when we get author
approvals, we also ask THEM to catagorieze their story. Then they can
decide where their story fits.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:40 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise

>I agree, authors' comments are a problem. I think I wrote over a hundred

story reviews but certainly less than ten author reviews. It's particularly
hard in two scenariors: when the ame author had pieces in several categories
(Zimraphel and Lindelea jump to mind, though I'm sure there were others). I
could really like such authors but not be able to give them as many votes in
each category because I would have to write twice or however many times as
much.

>It's also hard to write where an author just has one entry in a category. I

know I found myself not sure what to say about an author because I had
already said it in my story review.

Yeah a lot of my author reviews ended up sounding like story reviews,
especially if they had only one story in that category. They are definitely
more difficult. Would anyone be interested in me posting a few author
comments from the ASC Awards to see how they were done successfully for so
many years?

>My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write

however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it once.
(This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose; I think a
lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would have probably
reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category to review them in and
so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I know, but I think having
all the authors together would really help.

While I acknowledge that difficulty, I still have to say No to this one.
Two reasons: 1) Because as I said before, how one writes drama is different
than how one writes humor. How do you say a poet is better than a novella
author? You can't really compare them. And 2) what you propose would come
down to an Overall Best Author category. That was tried one year with ASC
and it was thrown out in the post-mortem. It is too elitist and far too
inaccruate because of reason #1.

What about allowing copied comments? In other words, I could choose to copy
the same comment that I gave for Dwim in AuthorDrama for AuthorLOTR. I
wouldn't necessarily always choose to do that and could tweak it where I
could (for poetry or drabble or humor, something that is definitely
distinct), but it wouldn't be required that I tweak it.

But only for authors, of course, not sor stories.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

<snip>

>Would anyone be interested in me posting a few author
> comments from the ASC Awards to see how they were done successfully

for so

> many years?
>

That would be good.

Ainae, correct me if I'm wrong, but ASC is divided into ENT/TOS/TNG/
DS9/VOY, right? And not subdivided along multiple ways (like we have:
source material, race, genre)? You've spent more time in the Trek
fandom than I have, but it was my impression that most people tend to
write within one show. So I imagine the overlap between characters
isn't quite as great.

That doesn't fix our problem, but it is something to consider.

> >My suggestion? Create an "authors" category.

<snip>

> While I acknowledge that difficulty, I still have to say No to this

one.

> Two reasons: 1) Because as I said before, how one writes drama is

different

> than how one writes humor. How do you say a poet is better than a

novella

> author? You can't really compare them.

Fair enough. I write multiple genres and races and everything, but I
think I write it in basically the same way, the story just molds my
basic technique into one way or a not. So I could easily review all my
stories (Drama, Action, and Romance, Men and Hobbits) stories
together. But that's me. I can see how ot might create problems for
other authors.

> And 2) what you propose would come
> down to an Overall Best Author category. That was tried one year

with ASC

> and it was thrown out in the post-mortem. It is too elitist and far

too

> inaccruate because of reason #1.
>

I can understand that. You're right, this idea wouldn't work very
well.

> What about allowing copied comments? In other words, I could choose

to copy

> the same comment that I gave for Dwim in AuthorDrama for AuthorLOTR.

I

> wouldn't necessarily always choose to do that and could tweak it

where I

> could (for poetry or drabble or humor, something that is definitely
> distinct), but it wouldn't be required that I tweak it.
>
> But only for authors, of course, not sor stories.
>

I like this idea much better. Provided it was properly publicized
(like you did for "Voting ahead" during reading season, so people knew
they could do this), I'd be fine with this idea.

Marta

I think this is a good suggestion. One overall authors category would be good
and I'd write more author comments too.

Larian


--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

>
> My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
> however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it
> once. (This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose;
> I think a lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would
> have probably reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category
> to review them in and so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I
> know, but I think having all the authors together would really help.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
>

I agree. Perhaps, to avoid that elitist Best Author
thing, there could be Author(Poetry), Author(Drabble),
Author(WIP), etc for each writing *form*, rather for
each individual subcategory. After all, if someone
writes hobbit poetry and orc poetry, it's the same
poet and the style and quality is usually consistent
across subject matter.

That would also cut down on the sheer number of things
to vote on, which was a problem for some folks.

viv


--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think this is a good suggestion. One overall
> authors category would be good
> and I'd write more author comments too.
>
> Larian
>
>
> --- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This
> way people can write
> > however much they want to about an author, and
> only have to write it
> > once. (This also allows them to review more
> authors if they so choose;
> > I think a lot of people were pressed for time at
> the end.) I would
> > have probably reviewed some authors, but was not
> sure which category
> > to review them in and so did not review them in
> any. :-/ My problem, I
> > know, but I think having all the authors together
> would really help.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

I agree with this. I know that it is not easy to
categorize authors because some write poetry, some
write drama and some write humor, but maybe we could
have *few* sub-categories inside the authors' one?

I was here shortly while you were discussing all this,
so I am aware I have not read all the reasons given
for so many categories, but simplicity, when it's
possible, is a good thing.

CC

--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I think this is a good suggestion. One overall
> authors category would be good
> and I'd write more author comments too.
>
> Larian
>
>
> --- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This
> way people can write
> > however much they want to about an author, and
> only have to write it
> > once. (This also allows them to review more
> authors if they so choose;
> > I think a lot of people were pressed for time at
> the end.) I would
> > have probably reviewed some authors, but was not
> sure which category
> > to review them in and so did not review them in
> any. :-/ My problem, I
> > know, but I think having all the authors together
> would really help.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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=====
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--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]

>
> >My suggestion? Create an "authors" category. This way people can write
> however much they want to about an author, and only have to write it once.
> (This also allows them to review more authors if they so choose; I think a
> lot of people were pressed for time at the end.) I would have probably
> reviewed some authors, but was not sure which category to review them in and
> so did not review them in any. :-/ My problem, I know, but I think having
> all the authors together would really help.
>
> While I acknowledge that difficulty, I still have to say No to this one.
> Two reasons: 1) Because as I said before, how one writes drama is different
> than how one writes humor. How do you say a poet is better than a novella
> author? You can't really compare them. And 2) what you propose would come
> down to an Overall Best Author category. That was tried one year with ASC
> and it was thrown out in the post-mortem. It is too elitist and far too
> inaccruate because of reason #1.

I thought a separate authors category was a good idea, but I can see the point
about the different categories. Couldn't you just have subcategories then?
This probably doesn't sound a lot different than what we did this year, except
that there wouldn't be a story and author category for every main category.
Just one authors category with sub-categories for different things like humor,
drama, etc?

>
> What about allowing copied comments? In other words, I could choose to copy
> the same comment that I gave for Dwim in AuthorDrama for AuthorLOTR. I
> wouldn't necessarily always choose to do that and could tweak it where I
> could (for poetry or drabble or humor, something that is definitely
> distinct), but it wouldn't be required that I tweak it.
>
> But only for authors, of course, not sor stories.

This is a good compromise too, copied comments would work well, I'd think.

>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I think that's an excellent idea. I ended up asking several of the authors I
nominated which category they thought would work best.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> I also want to bring up this proposed change: Next year, when we get author
> approvals, we also ask THEM to catagorieze their story. Then they can
> decide where their story fits.
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

I know Ainae said only three discussions at a time, but I added more
than that to the database so they were up there...a couple of them are
short anyway, and won't require much discussion, I don't think.


I realize we had to make decisions regarding categories, but I thought
it put a few types of stories at a disadvantage, because they had a
lot more competition. For instance, there was a Men category, a Rohan
category, and a Numenor category. A lot of stories could have fit
into Men-or-Rohan, or Men-or-Numenor. On the other hand ALL the
Hobbit and Elves stories were lumped together. I know that the elves,
at least, had sub-categories, but I thought the Men category could
have held Rohan, Numenor, Gondor categories as well, and reduced the
number of main categories. Either that, or have Elves, then
Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, etc categories. The hobbits could
have been split up too, I'm sure, though I'm not familiar enough with
them to suggest other categories.

I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor category?)

Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits,
Men, Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or
Numenor.

Larian

I know we needed to get in as much of the fandom as possible this
year, and maybe next year as well, but I was disappointed to find
stories by authors who have not written (or updated wips) in a couple
of years. The ones that were in progress were the ones that really
annoyed me, to be honest. I know real life interrupts, but if a story
hasn't been updated in 2 years, I really have my doubts that it will
be finished, ever, and I regretted the time it took me to read and
vote on some of those.

Anyway, my suggestion is that we have a cutoff date of some
kind...that the wips have been updated within the last 12 months.

Then as the awards continue, they could be limited to stories
published within the last year or so, although that's probably not
realistic just yet...


Larian

I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as
well. I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on
day 1 of the voting season, and all the categories could be voted on
throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking
that if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave
all the categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize
the time the counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need
for an amnesty day.

(I know, the counters were supposed to get breaks and what not, but I
think the six weeks actually made the problem worse, since some of
them ended up disappearing partway through. This way, it's a bit more
concentrated and the end more easily seen.)

My suggestion: Cut the voting season down to two full weeks, and have
all the categories open for the duration.

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:24 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible stories

>I know we needed to get in as much of the fandom as possible this year, and

maybe next year as well, but I was disappointed to find stories by authors
who have not written (or updated wips) in a couple of years. The ones that
were in progress were the ones that really annoyed me, to be honest. I know
real life interrupts, but if a story hasn't been updated in 2 years, I
really have my doubts that it will be finished, ever, and I regretted the
time it took me to read and vote on some of those.

Well--and I'm saying this as a reminder to everyone--you never need to read
a story you don't want to read. It's great if people read stories they
hadn't planned. That's one of the added benefits of these awards, but I
also know some felt intimidated by the number and didn't they could read
them all and so didn't vote. You don't have to read them all. You can vote
on the ones that you read that you thought deserved it. And if you read a
story and decided it didn't deserve it, you don't have to vote on it at all.

>Anyway, my suggestion is that we have a cutoff date of some kind...that the

wips have been updated within the last 12 months.

I think that is a great idea for WIPs (and I've edited the topic in the
database to say WIPs). Personally, I don't like reading WIPs. Particularly
when it's a long time between updates (because I'll have forgotten what
happened before) and it's particularly unpleasant to find a good WIP given
up on. When I started in this fandom, I got sucked into some WIPs. I still
have a few out there that I'm reading. But now that my infamous spreadsheet
of stories has over 500 complete stories that I'd like to give a shot to,
I'm rather glad to not have to start any new WIPs. I've got plenty of
completed stories to keep me more than busy.

Discuss if you want, otherwise, we'll have a poll on this one soon.

>Then as the awards continue, they could be limited to stories published

within the last year or so, although that's probably not realistic just
yet...

I'm not sure when that will ever be realistic. With ASC, we have one place
where stories are posted, and thus we know exactly what was posted in the
one year time period. With the MEFAs, unless we were to set up an archive
(and I don't particularly want to do that myself), we have to pull from any
and every archive out there (except TolkienOnline) and with 33000+ (I
haven't been there in a few weeks) LOTR stories on ff.net, there's really no
way we can limit the completed stories to those posted in the last year.
You may go out there and find the best LOTR fanfic ever written and find it
was posted in 1976! You'd want it to be elligible, right?

So elligibility on completed stories and WIPS that ARE being updated,
should still be wide open.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:12 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.

>I know Ainae said only three discussions at a time, but I added more than

that to the database so they were up there...a couple of them are short
anyway, and won't require much discussion, I don't think.

Well, as long as my brain doesn't scramble, and my other bits of life come
to a halt, we should be okay. I just also don't want topics to get lost in
the shuffle.

Oh, and let's remember to edit our subject lines for easier identification.
(I thought of that just after I sent my last reply). This one works because
it identifies the topic and Post-Mortem. But the ones that are just replies
from my original post should be edited. I'll be getting back to them soon.

>I realize we had to make decisions regarding categories, but I thought it

put a few types of stories at a disadvantage, because they had a lot more
competition. For instance, there was a Men category, a Rohan category, and
a Numenor category. A lot of stories could have fit into Men-or-Rohan, or
Men-or-Numenor. On the other hand ALL the Hobbit and Elves stories were
lumped together. I know that the elves, at least, had sub-categories, but I
thought the Men category could have held Rohan, Numenor, Gondor categories
as well, and reduced the number of main categories. Either that, or have
Elves, then Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, etc categories. The hobbits
could have been split up too, I'm sure, though I'm not familiar enough with
them to suggest other categories.

>I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend on

the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan got a bit
more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor category?)

Gondor was a surprise. Who knew it would, have 27 stories?! That's the
thing. The main categories did just sort of happen. Only Mystery and Orcs
were added from those shadow975 and I brainstormed before starting this
whole rigamaroll. ;-) So, this opens up an even bigger can of worms.
Categorization may need a complete overhaul.

>Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be

troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits, Men,
Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or Numenor.

First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:

3 topics:
Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit their
intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is a genuine
interest breakup.

Genres, because this is more traditional. Drama, Romance, Humor, etc.
These are also valid. I don't read Romances for instances. Not even Elf
romances.

Time/Books, because like Trek being devided into series, this is a valid
division in the Middle-Earth fandom. And a good fallback if you can't
decide where else to put a story. You can almost always set one in time.

The categories within the topics:
Men, Elves, Hobbits, were obvious choices. Orc was a surprise but it
actually turned out well. Why Rohan and Numenor? Because I thought there
were enough Rohan and Numenor stories out there to make them worthwhile. I
really had no idea Gondor would turn out like it did. So Gondor is
definitely a cadidate for a category of its own. And there was a thought
about a Villains category, too, so that other baddies besides Orcs could
have their spot.

Genres are still pretty self-explantory.

As are Time/Books.

But what about the number? Is it better or worse to have more or less
categories? Ah, that is a big debate still at ASC. Some find a category
with more than 50 stories too intimidating. While others find the explosion
in number of categories ridiculous and wiping out all sense in having awards
to begin with. (What is special about a Best___ Award, when there are 600
Best ___ Awards?)

ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

1. Categorization shall be based on the headers that the
Author provides. The Awards Coordinator may also chose
to catagorize works by other criteria.
2. The lower bound on the categories this year shall require
that all categories contain at least 8 works by at least
2 different authors.
A. The Coordinator will combine categories that are too
small to qualify under the "8x2" rule, with the goal
of fostering meaningful competition between similar
types of works.
B. Any category with 50 or more stories in it will prompt
the coordinator or their designates to look for a division

We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower bound,
though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3 authors
for authors.

Let the debate at MEFA begin....

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

it looks like some great ideas and discussion going on. I'll try to
throw out my 2 cents in a coherent manner.

cutoff dates:
I'm not concerned about how old a story is. I see something of a
problem in the fandom, in that it seems like (for the most part) only
the newer stories get much attention. I like the way the archives
tend to have the newest on top, but many times, once you're off the
front page, your readership drops dramatically. I love see those old
forgotten favorites get another chance in the light.

instead of a 'completed by' cutoff date, I'd rather leave that open
and instead say that a story can only be nominated one time ever.

in regards to WIPs. ...I used to read some, I don't (much) any more
for a couple of reasons. Mainly the aggravation of waiting on
updates, and especially those that you realize, over a long period,
are likely not to be finished. I'm ducking because my own 'longfic'
took me about 18 months to write and I'm **extremely** grateful for
the readers who encouraged me along the way. But I think, especially
for a contest, if it's worth reading, it's worth reading all of it.
I'd prefer not to allow WIPs at all. Once they're finished, they'll
be eligible in their regular category.


(added)===> another thought here, in order to encourage authors who
haven't finished their work ... what about submitting only the
prologue and first chapter, or two chapters of a WIP, (regardless of
how much of it is written only that much would be voted on). ...
that would allow feedback on the characterization and setting up the
plot, etc, without bogging down the readers in 100k words of an
unfinished story.author votes:


I read Aina's posting nixing the idea, but I'm not convinced it
wouldn't be a good idea to only have one author competition. Every
author listed one time no matter how many stories they had nominated,
but I'd recommend placing many more than three. Maybe list the top
three or five in order, and the top 25 as a group. .. something along
those lines. ... My thoughts are this, that regardless of style or
genre, the author speaks to people or they don't. characterization,
plotting, pace and flow ... the same elements are in place
regardless that they are used differently in poetry than they are in
romance or action/adventure.

Sulriel

> I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as
> well. I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on
> day 1 of the voting season, and all the categories could be voted on
> throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

My heartfelt agreement to that !

>
> The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
> suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking
> that if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave
> all the categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize
> the time the counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need
> for an amnesty day.

I agree also to that.

I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on
one of my favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim
because it was categorized as Drama and for my mind it belonged
to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me undistinguished categorization
in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I forgot to vote for a
story I had printed, read, and commented on the print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched
through the e-mails for my comment to remind
Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)

>
> (I know, the counters were supposed to get breaks and what not, but I
> think the six weeks actually made the problem worse, since some of
> them ended up disappearing partway through. This way, it's a bit more
> concentrated and the end more easily seen.)

More agreement ;-)
Though I would make it three weeks or even more for voting,
please think of the Real Life constraints of the voters.

I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time
and then let the counters work for two weeks in the end
_after_ the voting. In this case quite a few voters
would happily help with the counting as I did, presumably.
During voting season I simply had not enough time to set aside
for counting as I struggled to read and to write votes.

For me too it seems easier to shepherd the counters
to do through what they are supposed to do during a short period
then to account for all the Real Life problems of the counters
they are accosted by through such a lengthy time.

In my impression quite a few counters had a problem
with the counting of Amnesty Day votes
which were not updated in the Data base.

>
> My suggestion: Cut the voting season down to two full weeks, and have
> all the categories open for the duration.

My expanded suggestion:
Voting season of 4 weeks or more,
have all categories open for the duration,
and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks
(and as long as is needed).

Best wishes Elanor

(trying to be succinct) I agree with the below. to start with some
basics and expand once the numbers reach a max, keeping the smaller
ones above a minimum. I understand and agree (to a point) with the
thought that two many categories can diminish the award, but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine
or twelve people walk away with all the goodies.

***pasted below***
ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

1. Categorization shall be based on the headers that the
Author provides. The Awards Coordinator may also chose
to catagorize works by other criteria.
2. The lower bound on the categories this year shall require
that all categories contain at least 8 works by at least
2 different authors.
A. The Coordinator will combine categories that are too
small to qualify under the "8x2" rule, with the goal
of fostering meaningful competition between similar
types of works.
B. Any category with 50 or more stories in it will prompt
the coordinator or their designates to look for a division

We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower
bound,though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at
least 3 authorsfor authors.

Let the debate at MEFA begin....
**end paste**

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the

lower bound,

> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3

authors

> for authors.
>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>

Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been
here for a while...

CC

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories

>I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.

I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

This one is up for debate, too, I think. I, personally, wouldn't want to
have to vote on them all at once. Having them run in different periods
actually helped me. I didn't use Reading Season well. I was still in Elves
(the first category I started reading) when Voting Season started. Having
Elves and Men stop in 10 days, gave me incentive to hurry up and get to some
other categories. When Hobbits and Orcs ended, I was again prompted to get
over to Rohan and Numenor (which I still managed to miss entirely until
Amnesty Day). I will also say that this is the way ASC does it and that's
why we do it here. We don't have to follow everything they do though. But
it was certainly easier on me to pick up from where they were and just tweak
what needed tweaking.

And yes, there is the bit about faciliatating counting, and yes, you are
right that some did disappear and we had to scramble to count at the end. I
think I ended up counting 16 categories. (Thank you everyone who picked up
the slack! We still had our required 3 different counters per comment!) I
personally liked having 5 days off here and there. I think we could
definitely combine author & story for the same counter though. (I just
finalized that one.) That might keep them around. And if we keep the
catgories running at different times, we could spell it out what time period
the counters are counting for.

>The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my

suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking that
if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave all the
categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize the time the
counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need for an amnesty day.


There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all catgories at the same time
and 2) shorten Voting Season.

I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2. I don't think so. I
would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted on. And there was a
poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was too long, too, short, or
just right. The vote was "just right".

I could have used more time! But was glad for a deadline because, hey, I do
have a life. ;-)

Discuss on this one (change the subject line accordingly) and it will go to
poll soon.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: zafiro_v [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the

lower bound,

> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3

authors

> for authors.
>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>

Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here for a
while...

CC

Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to provide
them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead Week" for our
Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening of the week. And I
onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to one of my cats becoming
overly aggressive toward another of them.

Thanks, if you would, Larian.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

I was out of town for the entire Elves voting season,
and (unexpectedly) on Amnesty day. The voting
schedule, which overlapped and didn't seem to be in
any particular order, was also very confusing. I had
to put the chart on my computer desktop so I'd know
which categories were up for votes on a given day!

I talked to several people who just got frustrated and
gave up.

So, I'm in the the shorter-voting-time + all
categories open camp.

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all
> catgories at the same time
> and 2) shorten Voting Season.
>
> I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2.
> I don't think so. I
> would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted
> on. And there was a
> poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was
> too long, too, short, or
> just right. The vote was "just right".
>
> I could have used more time! But was glad for a
> deadline because, hey, I do
> have a life. ;-)
>
> Discuss on this one (change the subject line
> accordingly) and it will go to
> poll soon.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
> Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that."
> --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth
> Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>

=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

> I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
> on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
> got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor
> category?)

Heya, this fan of Gondorians supports this question ;-)
Why not a Gondorian category if there is a Rohirrim one?

>
> Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
> troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits,
> Men, Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or
> Numenor.

I understood, Ainaechoiriel wanted as many awards as possible,
other wise I would not understand poetry, drabbles, WIP,
Rohan, Drama etc.

Thus I support a category Gondor.

Drama or Horror, on the other hand, are for me
misleading categories.
I missed one of my favourite Men-LoTR stories
because it was in the category Drama,
and in Horror I read more Silmarillion stories
than Horror stories.

Thus I support a categorization along the main races
and make under categories for Gondor, Rohan,
Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.

I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a under category
for Men, Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line
more along Second age, Early Third Age, Pre-War-of-the-Ring,
War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.

Thus we would have for example
"Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
"Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
If the subcategories have not enough stories
they would be subsumed into one category higher.

Best wishes Elanor

> Thus I support a categorization along the main races
> and make under categories for Gondor, Rohan,
> Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.
>
> I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a
> under category
> for Men, Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line
> more along Second age, Early Third Age,
> Pre-War-of-the-Ring,
> War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.
>
> Thus we would have for example
> "Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
> "Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
> If the subcategories have not enough stories
> they would be subsumed into one category higher.
>

I think this is a very good idea.

CC

=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

I read some beforehand and wrote some comments, lost them. wrote
more comments. .. pasted them in the wrong cells. read more, wrote
more. .... pasted those comments in a the document that was 'wanna
read' instead of the 'did read' .... I was thinking for awhile that
maybe I should up the meds. .. *sigh*

once I got the ballots, I had h.e.double-hocky-sticks trying to find
all my earlier comments in their various docs and get them in the
right ballots, but after that it was easy.

I pasted the ballot in an email and saved it in draft. I could click
on the link, read the story, open the draft mail and write my vote,
then close the mail with a 'save changes'. The ones that I decided
not to read (for whatever reason) I simply deleted from the ballot as
I went down the list. When I got to the bottom, I pasted the whole
thing to the yahoo mail and sent. It couldn't have been easier.

So the main thing for me (regardless of the length of voting season)
would be to have the ballots available as early as possible. I would
*like* to have them at the start of reading season, then the voting
season could be an open two weeks, (or four weeks) and it wouldn't
matter as much.

I added three items to the post-mortem database. We don't have to
talk about those things until we're done talking with the current
topics, but if I'd waited to add them, I would for-sure have
forgotten.

Those items were things suggested to me when I was pimping the MEFAs
on my livejournal a month or so ago, so the ideas actually originated
from several people.


viv

I'm still quite against an overall. (I think you'll find as you get to know
me, I'm democratic sometimes but sometimes dictatorial.)

Here are some of the suggestions and my thoughts:

Overall but with more than 3 winners: This is still elitist and comes down
to a popularlity contest, as many have called it. Popular authors will get
votes. Lesser-knowns are less likely. The more categoreis there are, the
better chances for a better spread of awards.

Just a few categories, such as drabble, vignette, and poetry: I can't write
a humor story to save my life. I was surprised to find that I could write a
decent horror fic. I know I can write drama. And you can't convince me
that just because I'm a good writer in one, I'm a good writer in all of
them. And in the same way, somey way, I'm not sure I'd be a very good
Hobbit writer. I love Elves though,a nd men, well, they're human, and I've
been writing about humans (and occasionally Vulcans, Klingons, bajorans,
Founders, etc.) for a long time now. Someone may be an excellent Hobbit
writer and then find that they're not so good at writing Elves. Being good
at one does not automatically make you good at the other.

Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories I've ever read were from
Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I don't think she wrote
the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best humor. But I wouldn't want
her to miss being recognized for Numenor.

I'm presently sticking with my compromise of allowing copied comments for
authors.

Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable. Just stubborn.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] note: added to post-mortem database

>I added three items to the post-mortem database. We don't have to talk

about those things until we're done talking with the current topics, but if
I'd waited to add them, I would for-sure have forgotten.

I have a text file somehwere where I noted down my suggested changes. The
ones I've posted so far came from my memory. I need to find that file.

>Those items were things suggested to me when I was pimping the MEFAs on my

livejournal a month or so ago, so the ideas actually originated from several
people.

That's fine, but only members count when making these decisions. The
democratic ones anyway. ;-) Non-members have no voting rights and no say in
how we run things. That said, anyone who joins does!

Just a PS or warning, not to Viv but to everyone: One reason I'm a little
reticient about changing things from the ASC way is the fear the suggestion
of comment-based awards found when I first brought them up in the LOTR
fandom. That was in the discussions at Hennth-Annun that eventually led to
the separate group that led to the foundation of the Mithrils. That fear
led people to shoot them down before they ever got started. I will NOT
change these awards so much that the basic philosophy changes. Feedback
will ALWAYS be the prioirty, competition only secondary. Comments will
ALWAYS be the method of voting. And we will ALWAYS strive to stay away from
elitism. This isn't a popularity contest. Though, certainly, it can be
manipulated by less sincere hearts, getting feedback takes merit. So
stories win based on merit, not just being popular.

And that reminded me (because my brain is weird that way) about a comment I
wanted to put up on the Author comments thing.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

P.S. I had wanted to mention, but forgot, that ASC did try this overal
author thing and it was a horrid flop. It was hated, to put it bluntly. I
very much don't want to see it happen here.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:16 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments


I'm still quite against an overall. (I think you'll find as you get to know
me, I'm democratic sometimes but sometimes dictatorial.)

Here are some of the suggestions and my thoughts:

Overall but with more than 3 winners: This is still elitist and comes down
to a popularlity contest, as many have called it. Popular authors will get
votes. Lesser-knowns are less likely. The more categoreis there are, the
better chances for a better spread of awards.

Just a few categories, such as drabble, vignette, and poetry: I can't write
a humor story to save my life. I was surprised to find that I could write a
decent horror fic. I know I can write drama. And you can't convince me
that just because I'm a good writer in one, I'm a good writer in all of
them. And in the same way, somey way, I'm not sure I'd be a very good
Hobbit writer. I love Elves though,a nd men, well, they're human, and I've
been writing about humans (and occasionally Vulcans, Klingons, bajorans,
Founders, etc.) for a long time now. Someone may be an excellent Hobbit
writer and then find that they're not so good at writing Elves. Being good
at one does not automatically make you good at the other.

Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories I've ever read were from
Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I don't think she wrote
the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best humor. But I wouldn't want
her to miss being recognized for Numenor.

I'm presently sticking with my compromise of allowing copied comments for
authors.

Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable. Just stubborn.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links

> I'm still quite against an overall.

<snip>

> Someone may be an
> excellent Hobbit
> writer and then find that they're not so good at writing
> Elves. Being good
> at one does not automatically make you good at the other.
>
> Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories I've ever
> read were from
> Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I don't
> think she wrote
> the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best humor. But I
> wouldn't want
> her to miss being recognized for Numenor.
>
> I'm presently sticking with my compromise of allowing copied
> comments for
> authors.
>
> Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable. Just stubborn.

I fully agree with Ainaechoiriel,
nobody is good in all categories,
and I had no problem to write author comments
within the various categories.
Though I had some problems to vary my words
with respect to the story vote ;-)
Yet taking the hint "vote on how the author succeeds
with respect to the allotted category" helped quite a bit.

But copied comments will definitely lighten the voter's load ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

Another dictatorial decision: No.

Look at it this way, if all their stories were nominated this year, they
won't have anything to be nominated next year.

Another way to look at it: I nominted some Altariel stories. Someone else
nominated some Altariel stories. Someone else nominated some Altariel
stories. Not all multiple nominates came from the same person. If an
author nominated all her own stories, there's no guarantee they will be
read, or that they will be good enough to get votes. (They certainly may,
but it's not guaranteed. Remember, I nominated all my own stories, so don't
think I'm trying to make self-nominators feel bad. that's just realism. If
someone else nominates a story, it is more likely to get at least one
comment...by the nominator.)

Another way: Since we are based on ASC..Remember that there any story posted
during the year is automatically nominated. So if one author writes 26
drabbles (one for each ENT episode, for example), all 26 are nominated. Or
the author may choose to put them into one series and have all 26 run as one
nomination. But that is up to the author.

yet another way: One thing that really irks me about another awards program
out there is the limit of 1 story per catgory limit.

But sorry, this one is a No. There will be no limit on nominations.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We are not suggesting an overall author thing but an
author category with sub-categories. That way we
wouldn't have an overall best author and there would
be less risk of a popularity contest.

I never participate in contests becaus emost of them
are that precisely, a popularity thing. This awards
are different so I would never suggest to turn it into
what most other awards are.

Having the authors in one category would be simpler. I
know I would not vote authors if I had to copy and
paste... I'm not even certain if I would vote authors.
It is a complicated matter for me because as many are
my friends it would be difficult to be objective. So
my suggestion, and I am aware it is your decision what
tgo do in the end, doesn't have to do with my voting
intentions for next year (smile)

CC


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> P.S. I had wanted to mention, but forgot, that ASC
> did try this overal
> author thing and it was a horrid flop. It was
> hated, to put it bluntly. I
> very much don't want to see it happen here.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
> Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that."
> --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth
> Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:16 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments
>
>
> I'm still quite against an overall. (I think you'll
> find as you get to know
> me, I'm democratic sometimes but sometimes
> dictatorial.)
>
> Here are some of the suggestions and my thoughts:
>
> Overall but with more than 3 winners: This is still
> elitist and comes down
> to a popularlity contest, as many have called it.
> Popular authors will get
> votes. Lesser-knowns are less likely. The more
> categoreis there are, the
> better chances for a better spread of awards.
>
> Just a few categories, such as drabble, vignette,
> and poetry: I can't write
> a humor story to save my life. I was surprised to
> find that I could write a
> decent horror fic. I know I can write drama. And
> you can't convince me
> that just because I'm a good writer in one, I'm a
> good writer in all of
> them. And in the same way, somey way, I'm not sure
> I'd be a very good
> Hobbit writer. I love Elves though,a nd men, well,
> they're human, and I've
> been writing about humans (and occasionally Vulcans,
> Klingons, bajorans,
> Founders, etc.) for a long time now. Someone may be
> an excellent Hobbit
> writer and then find that they're not so good at
> writing Elves. Being good
> at one does not automatically make you good at the
> other.
>
> Likewise, I might say that the bets Numenor stories
> I've ever read were from
> Zimraphel. I may love all her stories, but maybe I
> don't think she wrote
> the best Elves story I ever read. Or the best
> humor. But I wouldn't want
> her to miss being recognized for Numenor.
>
> I'm presently sticking with my compromise of
> allowing copied comments for
> authors.
>
> Do continue to discuss. I'm not-unpersuadable.
> Just stubborn.
>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
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> http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
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Playing dictator again: No.

Why? Because where would the cut-off be? The MEFAs already took 6 months!
Heaven forbid they go on all year long! No. And heaven forbid the poor
counters who have to count a years' worth of comments. No.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: CC [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:34 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments

>We are not suggesting an overall author thing but an author category with

sub-categories. That way we wouldn't have an overall best author and there
would be less risk of a popularity contest.

Some were. Just reiterating my nay-saying of it. So subcategories....

Could be a simply rewording. Instead of LOTR/Author, we have Author/LOTR.
Same number of nominations.

>I never participate in contests becaus emost of them are that precisely, a

popularity thing. This awards are different so I would never suggest to turn
it into what most other awards are.

That's the way I feel, too. Thanks CC.

>Having the authors in one category would be simpler. I know I would not

vote authors if I had to copy and paste... I'm not even certain if I would
vote authors.
It is a complicated matter for me because as many are my friends it would be
difficult to be objective. So my suggestion, and I am aware it is your
decision what tgo do in the end, doesn't have to do with my voting
intentions for next year (smile)

Ah, but the trouble still remains. Am I not worthy of being considered for
a drama award for writing Immortal? But then do eschew my chance at a
Horror award with Lure of the Darkness? And next year, my drabbles and filk
will be elligible. Who limits me there?

I generally don't like limits. Limits on WIPs I understand. On their
updated status anyway, not on the number of them. By the way, I'm going to
add the WIP suggestion to the dtabase, about just posting the first few
chapters.... (I kind of like it, BTW).
--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 1:46 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards]Authors categorizing their own stories

>I think that's an excellent idea. I ended up asking several of the authors

I nominated which category they thought would work best.

Yeah, I don't see this one getting a lot of argument.

Though if someone has a good argument, let's hear it.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories

>I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.

I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

The surprise would be my fault. Or my stress-adled memory's. Anyway, that
is the way it's done at ASC, and since I borrowed so heavily from ASC, that
is the way it was done. I also prefer it that way, but that doesn't mean
I'm being dictatorial on this one. I'm still open for persuasion and it may
even go to poll.

BTW: I'm leaving work in about 10 minutes and may or may not be on again
until tomorrow.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> Could be a simply rewording. Instead of
> LOTR/Author, we have Author/LOTR.
> Same number of nominations.
>

Yes. The only value of the suggestion would be
simplicity, but maybe it's just me who sees it that
way...

> >I never participate in contests becaus emost of
> them are that precisely, a
> popularity thing. This awards are different so I
> would never suggest to turn
> it into what most other awards are.
>
> That's the way I feel, too. Thanks CC.
>

Welcome.

> Ah, but the trouble still remains. Am I not worthy
> of being considered for
> a drama award for writing Immortal? But then do
> eschew my chance at a
> Horror award with Lure of the Darkness? And next
> year, my drabbles and filk
> will be elligible. Who limits me there?
>

You know... Maybe it's just that I don't take these
things at heart. I don't even think I'm good so
winning an award means that people liked my stories.
Only that.

> I generally don't like limits. Limits on WIPs I
> understand. On their
> updated status anyway, not on the number of them.
> By the way, I'm going to
> add the WIP suggestion to the dtabase, about just
> posting the first few
> chapters.... (I kind of like it, BTW).

Yeah, I guess some people would feel limited and we
don't want anyone to feel like that (smile).

CC

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-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:36 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories

>I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my

favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was categorized as
Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me
undistinguished categorization in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I
forgot to vote for a story I had printed, read, and commented on the
print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched through the
e-mails for my comment to remind Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)

Where stories are put will be up to authors in the future, I believe.
Though for the 2004's you would first have to blame the nominators, then the
staff for trying to make sure all stories were in viable categories.

>I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time and then

let the counters work for two weeks in the end _after_ the voting. In this
case quite a few voters would happily help with the counting as I did,
presumably.
During voting season I simply had not enough time to set aside for counting
as I struggled to read and to write votes.

This is more a decision for Staff next year than the post-mortem as it
doesn't really affect how the awards are run. It's more just logistics. I'm
not against it. But then I'm also somewhat obsessive/compulsive and
impatient. I'd be counting votes from day one and still worrying about the
other counters getting their totals in on time.....

>In my impression quite a few counters had a problem with the counting of

Amnesty Day votes which were not updated in the Data base.

Yes, though that comment is counter to the one above. One day, then all the
counting doen in the two weeks after. And yet we lost some of the counters
we had.

>My expanded suggestion:

Voting season of 4 weeks or more,

It's presently 6.

>have all categories open for the duration,

Still up for debate. I've posted my views on that one.

>and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks (and as long as is

needed).

No on the as long as needed. No, we need to have a promised date for the
results. If I hadn't had that this year, we might still be waiting on real
life to let up for some of the counters. Instead, we fished out their counts
to others who were available and the totals came in on time.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Probably my last post before I run out of here.

-----Original Message-----
From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories

>I was out of town for the entire Elves voting season, and (unexpectedly) on

Amnesty day. The voting schedule, which overlapped and didn't seem to be in
any particular order, was also very confusing. I had to put the chart on my
computer desktop so I'd know which categories were up for votes on a given
day!

The order was the same order as in the FAQ and everything else listing the
categories when not sorted by Yahoo or Excel. Men, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs,
Rohan, Numenor, Humor, Adventure, Drama, Romance, Horror, Mystery, The Silm,
The Hobbit, and LOTR. And I just did that from memory. I may have swapped
one or two but the pairs are the same and they were put on the calendar as
simply as I could do them in a 6 week frame. Two at a time, 10 days, each,
overlapping by 5. And I put all those in the calendar on the yahoo site so
you could see when any of the categories ran.

>I talked to several people who just got frustrated and gave up.

I'm sorry, but I have to put that on them. The information was out there. I
promoted "early voting" quite hard right from the start, and even told
everyone how they could have their e-mail program send it for them on a
specified date. I even put all the ballots in the Files section when
someone asked. So they were there from the beginning of Voting Season.

Debating whether the season will be open or run in segments is still open.
Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to all the info out there
is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there. They only had to look.
Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two people vote-by-proxy
and posted their votes for them.

>So, I'm in the the shorter-voting-time + all categories open camp.

Is there anyone else who thought having the categories run at different
times was helpful?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

>>In my impression quite a few counters had a problem with the
>> counting of
>> Amnesty Day votes which were not updated in the Data base.
>
> Yes, though that comment is counter to the one above. One
> day, then all the
> counting doen in the two weeks after. And yet we lost some
> of the counters
> we had.

Hmm, for me this is not counter to the counting after an open season.
I thought more along these lines: the counters counted early,
then found no more time for counting further
(there were some counters who had only a few stories counted)
or found no time on Amnesty day.

If the counting were done in one rush after the voting
I think it would be easier to guide the team
up to the target: publication date.

But this really belongs into the staff discussion
if these arguments bear no impact for the
voting season open in all categories
which I support ;-)

Best wishes from Elanor
who has to go to bed now :-)

Don't know that I really have a say in all this, since I was unable to participate in any of the reading, voting, etc. BUUUT, I would like to see a catagory added for next year.

Crossovers are included, why not AUs? Many, many, MANY wonderful AUs out there and they should be recognized.

And, since I am sticking my nose in things, shouldn't those stories published in the previous calendar year be the only ones eligible? Close of 2004 to nominating season 2005, i.e.

Also, IMHO, WIP should be in a separate catagory, regardless of topic. Only finished pieces should be included in the other awards.

I'll go back to the corner now.


RubyG



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know I got tongue-tied when I got to the "Author" category, in writing
comments. I found it easy to comment on a story, specifically, but Authors was too
much generalisation for me, I think.

So I'll go along with what clearer heads have to say!

Thanks!
Lin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:
>
> 3 topics:
> Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit their
> intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is a genuine
> interest breakup.

I agree, natural categories for races. It's the places I'm wondering about.

>
> Genres, because this is more traditional. Drama, Romance, Humor, etc.
> These are also valid. I don't read Romances for instances. Not even Elf
> romances.

Again, total agreement from me here.

>
> Time/Books, because like Trek being devided into series, this is a valid
> division in the Middle-Earth fandom. And a good fallback if you can't
> decide where else to put a story. You can almost always set one in time.

More agreement.

>
> The categories within the topics:
> Men, Elves, Hobbits, were obvious choices. Orc was a surprise but it
> actually turned out well. Why Rohan and Numenor? Because I thought there
> were enough Rohan and Numenor stories out there to make them worthwhile. I
> really had no idea Gondor would turn out like it did. So Gondor is
> definitely a cadidate for a category of its own. And there was a thought
> about a Villains category, too, so that other baddies besides Orcs could
> have their spot.

I guess my point is that if Rohan and Numenor were singled out, why not
Lothlorien? Or The Shire? Or Rivendell? Etc... If you choose one place, it
doesn't seem fair not to choose others, to at least see if they're viable
categories. (I know Romance had a Rivendell category, so that could have been
broken out into a place and other stories in the elves could have too, I'm
sure)

>
> Genres are still pretty self-explantory.
>
> As are Time/Books.
>
> But what about the number? Is it better or worse to have more or less
> categories? Ah, that is a big debate still at ASC. Some find a category
> with more than 50 stories too intimidating. While others find the explosion
> in number of categories ridiculous and wiping out all sense in having awards
> to begin with. (What is special about a Best___ Award, when there are 600
> Best ___ Awards?)

I agree too, too many categories dilutes the purpose, and in actuality, that's
what it felt like when Rohan and Numenor were accorded special categories,
though they could have easily stayed in Men. I mean, it was tough to get
Numenor viable as it was, right?

Fifty stories feels about right to me for a top limit.

>
> ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

I snipped here because those all looked logical to me...it cuts down on the
number of stories per category, without getting ridiculous.

>
> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower bound,
> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3 authors
> for authors.

Now that we have a better idea of the spread we might get, maybe we should
raise that to 7x2 stories and (left at) 3 for authors.

>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

=====
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larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

--- sulriel <Sulriel@htcomp.net> wrote:

>
> it looks like some great ideas and discussion going on. I'll try to
> throw out my 2 cents in a coherent manner.
>
> cutoff dates:
> I'm not concerned about how old a story is. I see something of a
> problem in the fandom, in that it seems like (for the most part) only
> the newer stories get much attention. I like the way the archives
> tend to have the newest on top, but many times, once you're off the
> front page, your readership drops dramatically. I love see those old
> forgotten favorites get another chance in the light.

That's a good point. I guess I was a little concerned with some older stories
whose authors (I'd heard) had left the fandom and were pursuing other
interests. Didn't seem quite right to give them too much of my time and
attention, but that's just me maybe...

>
> instead of a 'completed by' cutoff date, I'd rather leave that open
> and instead say that a story can only be nominated one time ever.

That seems reasonable to me.

>
> in regards to WIPs. ...I used to read some, I don't (much) any more
> for a couple of reasons. Mainly the aggravation of waiting on
> updates, and especially those that you realize, over a long period,
> are likely not to be finished. I'm ducking because my own 'longfic'
> took me about 18 months to write and I'm **extremely** grateful for
> the readers who encouraged me along the way. But I think, especially
> for a contest, if it's worth reading, it's worth reading all of it.
> I'd prefer not to allow WIPs at all. Once they're finished, they'll
> be eligible in their regular category.
>
>
> (added)===> another thought here, in order to encourage authors who
> haven't finished their work ... what about submitting only the
> prologue and first chapter, or two chapters of a WIP, (regardless of
> how much of it is written only that much would be voted on). ...
> that would allow feedback on the characterization and setting up the
> plot, etc, without bogging down the readers in 100k words of an
> unfinished story.author votes:

That's a good idea. I like it.

> Sulriel

I found this too. I had stories I'd commented on, or thought I'd commented
on, but they weren't in the category where I wrote most (or all?) my comments,
and so when I came around to Amnesty Day I don't know if I actually transmitted
all my comments.

Though there was one phantom story that wasn't even in the competition! (And
I wrote comments on it, LOL)

Lin


In a message dated 12/1/2004 2:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on
one of my favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim
because it was categorized as Drama and for my mind it belonged
to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me undistinguished categorization
in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I forgot to vote for a
story I had printed, read, and commented on the print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched
through the e-mails for my comment to remind
Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does this (what I quoted below) imply limiting the number of entries by an
author somehow? I know I felt chagrined to have so many entries, when I looked
at the lists later--this was because most of them I submitted myself. I was
going thru a bad patch, and looking for feedback at the time, and so submitted a
bunch of my own stuff since I figured nobody else would.

Insecurity raises its head... (dh read one of my stories aloud to the kiddos
last night, and what I had thought so charming on paper or monitor sounded,
read aloud, boring and impossibly dull. And so I look at my positive comments
once more and bless those who took the time to read and leave encouraging words,
while again resisting the compulsion to chuck the writing in the dustbin)

Aargh. Sorry.
Lin

In a message dated 12/1/2004 2:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine
or twelve people walk away with all the goodies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
> categories
>
>
>
> >I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
> I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
> voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
> assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.
>
> This one is up for debate, too, I think. I, personally, wouldn't want to
> have to vote on them all at once. Having them run in different periods
> actually helped me. I didn't use Reading Season well.

I tried to use reading season, and I did for a lot of the categories.

>
> And yes, there is the bit about faciliatating counting, and yes, you are
> right that some did disappear and we had to scramble to count at the end. I
> think I ended up counting 16 categories. (Thank you everyone who picked up
> the slack! We still had our required 3 different counters per comment!) I
> personally liked having 5 days off here and there. I think we could
> definitely combine author & story for the same counter though. (I just
> finalized that one.) That might keep them around. And if we keep the
> catgories running at different times, we could spell it out what time period
> the counters are counting for.

My only comment on that then, if you're going to specify counting periods, then
you do not offer an Amnesty Day. For one thing, that drags out the counting so
that the original counter feels obligated to stay and count it, or it makes it
difficult for someone new to step in and collect the ballots and count them.
Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified, we still had
a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.

I was thinking a 2 week voting season would keep the counters interested for
the whole thing, plus give a little time if RL issues cropped up.

Either way, I think the suggestion about having the ballots ready to go or made
available to fill out ahead was a good one too.

>
> >The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
> suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking that
> if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave all the
> categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize the time the
> counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need for an amnesty day.
>
>
> There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all catgories at the same time
> and 2) shorten Voting Season.
>
> I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2. I don't think so. I
> would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted on. And there was a
> poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was too long, too, short, or
> just right. The vote was "just right".

Yes, I voted for six weeks when I was under the impression that we could vote
for any category at all during that time. Having staggered them I'd say 6 weeks
was too long.

>
> I could have used more time! But was glad for a deadline because, hey, I do
> have a life. ;-)

Ditto. But concentrating it all into 2 weeks seems like it would take less
time, not more. And maybe this way, you don't have to scramble for more
counters at the last minute, if they know up front that their time is limited
to these two weeks, and we won't lose people who just...don't show up.

>
> Discuss on this one (change the subject line accordingly) and it will go to
> poll soon.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

>
>
>

Hi again,

<snip>

> >I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
> favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was

categorized as

> Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR.

I think Jodancingtree had a hard time finding where her story "The
Queen's Orc" was placed as well. And I think Lindelea was unsure
whether Thundera's "The Ring Goes South" (or something like that).
This might have a simple solution. We have on the website a listing of
nominations by category. Would it be feasible to have a table of
nominations sorted by title, that also listed the category (and
subcategory where applicable)? That way, if someone is unsure if a
story has been nominated or where it is nominated, they could take a
quick look at the table.

<snip>

> >I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time

and then

> let the counters work for two weeks in the end _after_ the voting.

<further snippage>

> This is more a decision for Staff next year than the post-mortem as

it

> doesn't really affect how the awards are run. It's more just

logistics. I'm

> not against it. But then I'm also somewhat obsessive/compulsive and
> impatient. I'd be counting votes from day one and still worrying

about the

> other counters getting their totals in on time.....
>

Another thing to consider: some people (like me) work well with
deadlines. I know a lot of people said they didn't use reading season
well. If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
*more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much close
at once.

<snip>

> >and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks (and as

long as is

> needed).
>
> No on the as long as needed.

Just to weigh in - I agree with Ainae here. See my above comment about
deadlines - this applies to the staff as well. I'm sure there are some
people counting votes who work better knowing they have a deadline.

One further comment - there's been a lot of talk about categorization.
I know the categories make sense, and I don't want to have just one
class (Races, Source Material, or Genre). But I think most stories can
be categorized as one race *and* one source *and* one genre. We might
need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
each in the three divisions I mentioned above.

To give an example: Thundera's "A Fool's Hope". (This is just the
first story that jumps to mind.) This is a scene between two elves, so
it could fit there. It is a drama piece, so it could go there as well.
And it is clearly LotR, where it was categorized. So it would be
eligible in each of these three categories.

With this year's awards, I saw some what I consider artificial
differences in the categories. For example, there was Romance, but
there was also Silmarillion/Romance and (I think?) Elves/Romance.
There was Silmarillion, but then also (I think?) Elves/Silmarillion.
So the Silmarillion winners do not necessarily represent the best
Silmarillion-centric stories nominated - they did not compete with
stories in Elves/Silmarillion.

If we had multiple categories it would also decrease the pressure to
make categories viable. Say a story is nominated in Drama/Incomplete,
Hobbit/Incomplete, and Men/Incomplete. Drama/Incomplete and Men/
Incomplete are viable, but Hobbit/Incomplete is not. But you would not
have to find a new home for all the stories in Hobbit/Incomplete -
just let them run in the other categories they are in.

I recognize there are some logistical questions to consider, and it
probably needs more discussion on my part. But I wanted to know your
general feeling. Would you be willing to consider this? I think it
would help a lot, but it's a pretty considerable change.

Marta

Back for a bit before I head off to choir....

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:54 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Cutoff date for eligible
stories



--- sulriel <Sulriel@htcomp.net> wrote:

>That's a good point. I guess I was a little concerned with some older

stories whose authors (I'd heard) had left the fandom and were pursuing
other interests. Didn't seem quite right to give them too much of my time
and attention, but that's just me maybe...

Oh, I still love getting comments about my Angel/Buffy stories. Only two
and only written a few years ago.

> instead of a 'completed by' cutoff date, I'd rather leave that open
> and instead say that a story can only be nominated one time ever.

That seems reasonable to me.

That already is the case, except for WIPs, which may run once as incomplete
and once as complete.

>
> (added)===> another thought here, in order to encourage authors who
> haven't finished their work ... what about submitting only the
> prologue and first chapter, or two chapters of a WIP, (regardless of
> how much of it is written only that much would be voted on). ...
> that would allow feedback on the characterization and setting up the
> plot, etc, without bogging down the readers in 100k words of an
> unfinished story.author votes:

>That's a good idea. I like it.

So do I, but I thought of a snag....We don't post stories. We just nominate
them. They are housed elsewhere.

So, is it plausible to just say somewhere: "You only need to read the first
chapter of any WIP to vote on it"

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Still have a few minutes

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:10 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems



Hi again,

<snip>

> >I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
> favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was

categorized as

> Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR.

>I think Jodancingtree had a hard time finding where her story "The Queen's

Orc" was placed as well. And I think Lindelea was unsure whether Thundera's
"The Ring Goes South" (or something like that).
This might have a simple solution. We have on the website a listing of
nominations by category. Would it be feasible to have a table of nominations
sorted by title, that also listed the category (and subcategory where
applicable)? That way, if someone is unsure if a story has been nominated or
where it is nominated, they could take a quick look at the table.

Since authors will (most likely) categorize their own stuff, it won't be a
problem for authos, but it is possible that I could do that.

>Another thing to consider: some people (like me) work well with

deadlines. I know a lot of people said they didn't use reading season
well. If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
*more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much close
at once.

That's where I am. Voting Season and the following counting of votes
actually sucked up more of my life than any other part of these Awards. And
without some very serious juggling, I would have had overdrafts. I really,
really put things on hold for this. I'm happy to do it, but I don't want to
make it any harder on myself. I wouldn't go to bed without counting all the
Elves votes for the night.

>> No on the as long as needed.

>Just to weigh in - I agree with Ainae here. See my above comment about

deadlines - this applies to the staff as well. I'm sure there are some
people counting votes who work better knowing they have a deadline.

That one won't change.

>One further comment - there's been a lot of talk about categorization.

I know the categories make sense, and I don't want to have just one
class (Races, Source Material, or Genre). But I think most stories can
be categorized as one race *and* one source *and* one genre. We might
need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
each in the three divisions I mentioned above.

Yes, they can often fit in two or three categories. But no, they will not
run in more than one. The author (most likely--still haven't seen anyone
against that one) will decide which one category they want their story in.
It just wouldn't be anywhere near fair for the same story to win three
categories, and it would make it just as hard to comment on that story three
times as it is to comment on an author three times.

>To give an example: Thundera's "A Fool's Hope". (This is just the

first story that jumps to mind.) This is a scene between two elves, so
it could fit there. It is a drama piece, so it could go there as well.
And it is clearly LotR, where it was categorized. So it would be
eligible in each of these three categories.

Elligible for, yes, but finally landing in three, no.

>With this year's awards, I saw some what I consider artificial

differences in the categories. For example, there was Romance, but
there was also Silmarillion/Romance and (I think?) Elves/Romance.
There was Silmarillion, but then also (I think?) Elves/Silmarillion.
So the Silmarillion winners do not necessarily represent the best
Silmarillion-centric stories nominated - they did not compete with
stories in Elves/Silmarillion.

That would all be fixed by authors choosing their categories. Subcategories
were just considered by grouping like stories togther within the main
categories. Where we could find them. They are not even listed in the FAQ.
Even if authors choose their category, they will likely have to suggest a
subcategory or two, or the staff will still end up putting them in
subcategories, especially if we go with the 50 stories per category rule
from ASC.

>If we had multiple categories it would also decrease the pressure to

make categories viable. Say a story is nominated in Drama/Incomplete,
Hobbit/Incomplete, and Men/Incomplete. Drama/Incomplete and Men/
Incomplete are viable, but Hobbit/Incomplete is not. But you would not
have to find a new home for all the stories in Hobbit/Incomplete -
just let them run in the other categories they are in.

They could simply be in the other category they are elligible for. But
those doing the categorizing this year may not have read the story. They
wouldn't know if that Hobbit/Incomplete was dramatic or humorous. If
authors categorize their own stuff, that point is moot.

>I recognize there are some logistical questions to consider, and it

probably needs more discussion on my part. But I wanted to know your
general feeling. Would you be willing to consider this? I think it
would help a lot, but it's a pretty considerable change.

Thanks for the suggestion but no. No one complete story will ever win more
than one award. If any one complete story is in more than one category,
that can't be guaranteed. Having authors categorize will take much of the
problem out of this one.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

> Still have a few minutes
>

I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>

<snip>

> Would it be feasible to have a table of nominations
> sorted by title, that also listed the category (and subcategory

where

> applicable)?

<snip>

> Since authors will (most likely) categorize their own stuff, it

won't be a

> problem for authos, but it is possible that I could do that.
>

This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
available in the files section during reading season.

<snip>

> If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
> specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
> *more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much

close

> at once.
>
> That's where I am.

Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading season
up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
announce the results.

>Voting Season and the following counting of votes
> actually sucked up more of my life than any other part of these

Awards.

Ainae, I know I've said it before, but thank you. Thank you, all the
vote coutners, categorizers, and everyone else. But especially thanks
to Ainae. I was a Mithrils judge and I know how much time that took.
So I do have *some* idea of how tough it was for you - and I know you
did much more than I did as a judge. So hear, hear! for Ainae & Co.

<snip>

> We might
> need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
> each in the three divisions I mentioned above.
>
> Yes, they can often fit in two or three categories. But no, they

will not

> run in more than one. The author (most likely--still haven't seen

anyone

> against that one) will decide which one category they want their

story in.


Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of my
suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for veto
by you.

One suggestion - if the authors are choosing the categories, could we
have them choose the subcategories as well? I think this year there
were some stories that would fit a certain subcategory but the
categorizers just didn't know it. I think if we had some predefined
subcategories and asked the authors to note if they wanted their story
to run in a subcategory, it would make things a lot more consisten.

> It just wouldn't be anywhere near fair for the same story to win

three

> categories, and it would make it just as hard to comment on that

story three

> times as it is to comment on an author three times.
>

Both of these are part of the logistical issues I had thought of, but
that I didn't want to write out if you weren't interested in the idea.
I think the multiple cateogires idea could work, but after seeing your
reply, I don't think it's necessary. You've answered all the issues I
had.

Marta

I know there were some comments earlier (before this PM) about the
banners. I think a lot of people not involved in the awards do not
know what "The Lothlorien Award" means - "Elves - First Prize" makes a
lot more sense.

So maybe the banners could say "Elves - First Place" instead of "The
Lothlorien Award"? The entries for first place should still be
Lothlorien themeed and people could even describe the award they won
as "the Lothlorien Award" if they liked. But the banner space should
be dedicated to the phrase that people will most easily recognize, I
think.

Marta

> Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
> Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here for a
> while...
>
> CC
>
> Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to provide
> them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead Week" for our
> Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening of the week. And I
> onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to one of my cats becoming
> overly aggressive toward another of them.
>
> Thanks, if you would, Larian.

Just me doing this pretty fast, but it should be pretty accurate.

Adventure - 23
Crossover - oops, didn't count these
Drama - 107
Elves - 63
Hobbits - 55
Horror - 10
Humor - 31
LOTR - 60
Men - 57
Mystery - 10
Numenor - 7
Orcs - 10
Rohan - 12
Romance - 61
Silm - 36
TheHobbit - 7

>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

My issue with author comments stemmed from the fact that it was rather
confusing, until I saw some other author votes. We're just not used to voting
for authors separate from the stories, I think. We might have to do a bit of
education, but it was easy once I got the hang of it. (Though I still didn't
write many)

It probably doesn't make much difference if we keep the authors with each main
category, or make one main author category with humor/drama/poetry/etc
sub-categories. But really, (and I can't remember who mentioned this before) I
agree that it takes the same tools to write humor as it does to write drama,
when you get down to basics. Maybe a case could be made for splitting out
poetry or drabbles, but it might be less confusing for the voters if the
authors had their own category. If it's less confusing, more might vote.

I would agree though, that there shouldn't be an 'overall' author award.


=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to sound overly critical.
I've been a huge cheerleader for these awards and
think very highly of them. Maybe I can get my foot out
of my mouth if I yank on it hard enough. ;)

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Debating whether the season will be open or run in
> segments is still open.
> Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to
> all the info out there
> is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there.
> They only had to look.
> Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two
> people vote-by-proxy
> and posted their votes for them.

=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

No. It's still the Lothlorien Award. Viv did a big, big job adding a bar
under each banner telling what category and what place it was. And
subcategory! So not only will a The Lothlorien Award banner mean
Elves--First Place, but Elves--Drabble--First Place, or whatever. Thanks,
Viv!

How we can do that in the future? Either we need another volunteer with the
know-how or we need the winners to add that. Hmm...but I liked that the bar
was uniform even though I don't want the banners to be.

I'm not sure what to do there. It would be asking a lot for artists to make
seventeen of each banner. Especially when we don't know the subcategories
until after Nomination Season is over.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:14 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM - fanart



I know there were some comments earlier (before this PM) about the banners.
I think a lot of people not involved in the awards do not know what "The
Lothlorien Award" means - "Elves - First Prize" makes a lot more sense.

So maybe the banners could say "Elves - First Place" instead of "The
Lothlorien Award"? The entries for first place should still be Lothlorien
themeed and people could even describe the award they won as "the Lothlorien
Award" if they liked. But the banner space should be dedicated to the phrase
that people will most easily recognize, I think.

Marta





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Crossovers had 8.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:15 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Re: Stories per Main Category

> Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
> Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here
> for a while...
>
> CC
>
> Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to
> provide them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead
> Week" for our Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening
> of the week. And I onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to
> one of my cats becoming overly aggressive toward another of them.
>
> Thanks, if you would, Larian.

Just me doing this pretty fast, but it should be pretty accurate.

Adventure - 23
Crossover - oops, didn't count these
Drama - 107
Elves - 63
Hobbits - 55
Horror - 10
Humor - 31
LOTR - 60
Men - 57
Mystery - 10
Numenor - 7
Orcs - 10
Rohan - 12
Romance - 61
Silm - 36
TheHobbit - 7

>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
archive@ofelvesandmen.com


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Thank you for the info. Was there a minimn number of stories per
category? When did you decide it was a good idea to split
categories? If we had a rule about that it would need less
discussion...

CC

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:31 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments

>My issue with author comments stemmed from the fact that it was rather

confusing, until I saw some other author votes. We're just not used to
voting for authors separate from the stories, I think. We might have to do
a bit of education, but it was easy once I got the hang of it. (Though I
still didn't write many)

I've done it for years with ASC, and it was still hard for me. Of course, I
also have the hindrance of occassional aphasia now.

>It probably doesn't make much difference if we keep the authors with each

main category, or make one main author category with humor/drama/poetry/etc
sub-categories. But really, (and I can't remember who mentioned this
before) I agree that it takes the same tools to write humor as it does to
write drama, when you get down to basics.

I couldn't disagree more! I've written dramatic stories for over a decade.
I have necer written a humorous story and am afraid to try. Not everyone
who writes historical fiction can write science fiction. A person who
writes a romance novel cannot necessarily write mainstream drama. It's
absolutely not the same. Some really great humor writers can only write
really crappy dramatic stories.

> Maybe a case could be made for splitting out poetry or drabbles, but it

might be less confusing for the voters if the authors had their own
category. If it's less confusing, more might vote.

I still don't see how Author/LOTR and LOTR/Author are any different.
Besides, this conflicts with another suggested change that no one has
nay-sayed yet: the low bound. 50 stories per category (as ASC has it).
There were more than 50 author nominations.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com




=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
archive@ofelvesandmen.com


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-----Original Message-----
From: sulriel [mailto:Sulriel@htcomp.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:34 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.

>(trying to be succinct) I agree with the below. to start with some basics

and expand once the numbers reach a max, keeping the smaller ones above a
minimum. I understand and agree (to a point) with the thought that two many
categories can diminish the award, but this is also supposed to be fun, and
it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine or twelve people walk away with all
the goodies.

Agreed, but we had way more than 12 winners as it was, didn't we? But this
compromise has worked for ASC. I havent' seen this particular debate there
for a year or so.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

From what I remember, I wasn't in on the categorizing at the beginning, but I
know that each category and sub-category needed to have 5 stories by at least 2
different authors. Once the nominations closed, the nominations staff grouped
them into logical subcategories, sometimes they had to move stories that could
fit into two categories into a different place so we'd have more viable
categories.

So yes, there was a minimum number of stories.


--- zafiro_v <zafiro_v@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Thank you for the info. Was there a minimn number of stories per
> category? When did you decide it was a good idea to split
> categories? If we had a rule about that it would need less
> discussion...
>
> CC
>
>
>
>
>
>

> No. It's still the Lothlorien Award. Viv did a big, big job adding

a bar

> under each banner telling what category and what place it was. And
> subcategory! So not only will a The Lothlorien Award banner mean
> Elves--First Place, but Elves--Drabble--First Place, or whatever.

Thanks,

> Viv!

Thanks, Viv, from me, too. Sorry if I wasn't clear - I was suggesting
this for *next* year. (I'll try to be clearer in the future, but all
my suggestions are for next year, not this year.)

> How we can do that in the future? Either we need another volunteer

with the

> know-how or we need the winners to add that. Hmm...but I liked that

the bar

> was uniform even though I don't want the banners to be.
>

Well, I'm sufficiently reluctant not to volunteer a year in advance. ;
-) Beside,s, I don't know how to do it (though I suppose I could
learn.

Having "Elves - First Place" would be a good failsafe (IMO) in case we
didn't have someone to add the bar. Also, it would make less work for
Viv or whomever - s/he would not have to add any bars to the main
category banners, only the subcategory ones.

Marta

I see... makes sense...

CC


--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> From what I remember, I wasn't in on the
> categorizing at the beginning, but I
> know that each category and sub-category needed to
> have 5 stories by at least 2
> different authors. Once the nominations closed, the
> nominations staff grouped
> them into logical subcategories, sometimes they had
> to move stories that could
> fit into two categories into a different place so
> we'd have more viable
> categories.
>
> So yes, there was a minimum number of stories.
>

=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/




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-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:51 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem and postponed surprise



<snip>

>Would anyone be interested in me posting a few author comments from
>the ASC Awards to see how they were done successfully

for so

> many years?
>

>That would be good.

I'm not sure Trekiverse has comments archived, but I have, of course, kept
mine. Let me find a few:

From Valerie, 2001 ASC Awards:

I've read everything Gabrielle writes (even if she thinks mine are too
grim) and enjoy her style very much. As one who writes and rewrites until
you get it right, I am amazed that she doesn't. She writes grim stuff, but
always has that touch of hope there to balance it. Not all of us do that,
but she is excellent at balancing the good with the bad without having to
have a cheeze "happy" ending.

From Seema (can't remember which year):

It was good to see Gabrielle back this year. No one writes
Julian the way she does. Good luck with finishing "Faith."

From RabbbleRouser 2001:

Lawson is a very strong writer in terms of her narrative gift and
the pacing, description, style, and characterizations are all nicely in
place in her stories; as is a solid plot with an interesting sci-fi based
mystery at its center in "Faith: Forgiveness." Her Bashir is very
interesting.

This is one of my favorites. Meghan missed the deadline, so this vote did
not count, but she sent it to me, and I treasure it. Would have been for
the 2003 Awards:

Gabrielle is one fo those authors that you wonder why they aren't writing
professionally (maybe cause you write too much!). Her stories are so
complex and developed that you forget you're not reading a best selling
author (maybe that's redundant). The characters are true to life and
although she may disagree, her description is so compelling. Sometimes,
after reading one of her stories, I remember a scene that was so vivid that
I don't know if I read it or saw it on television. Her stories grab you
from the first sentence and don't let go until after you've finished. Some
like Oswiecim don't let go at all. Gabrielle is a truely talented writer
and I look forward to more from her.

(See why I treasure it? And Oswiecim was the Best DS9 General Story winner
for 1998!)

>Ainae, correct me if I'm wrong, but ASC is divided into ENT/TOS/TNG/

DS9/VOY, right? And not subdivided along multiple ways (like we have:
source material, race, genre)? You've spent more time in the Trek fandom
than I have, but it was my impression that most people tend to write within
one show. So I imagine the overlap between characters isn't quite as great.

They are first broken into the series. ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and MIS
(Mis being Miscellaneous, which includes cobined series and crossovers and
original crews). From there, the series are broken down. I won Best DS9
Story in 1996. That just meant it was not a subcategory. Someone else won
Best DS9 Romance, and that might even break down into pairings or "Featuring
Sisko". In 1998 and 2000 I won Best DS9 General Story and Best MIS
Combined. DS9 General meaning no subcategory though they did exist and MIS
Combined being a mix of two series, in that case TNG and DS9. So yes, they
have subcategories.

>That doesn't fix our problem, but it is something to consider.

Info and answers above for consideration. :-)

>Fair enough. I write multiple genres and races and everything, but I think

I write it in basically the same way, the story just molds my basic
technique into one way or a not. So I could easily review all my stories
(Drama, Action, and Romance, Men and Hobbits) stories together. But that's
me. I can see how ot might create problems for other authors.

Good for you! I only recently took the leap in trying to write a drabble
and shocked myself to find out that I could write a filk parody! I had no
idea I could do either of those and I don't think I write them in the same
way at all. I write DS9 differently than I do LOTR. Ask Julian Bashir.
He's probably jealous of Legolas. I've not put Legolas in Auschwitz.
Yet.... ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@y...>
wrote:

> From what I remember, I wasn't in on the categorizing at the

beginning, but I

> know that each category and sub-category needed to have 5 stories by

at least 2

> different authors.

Just to verify (as I was in on categorizing at the beginning),
Larian's right. From the FAQ:

IV. Categorization
B. Any suggested category must have at least 5 stories (or poems) by
at least 2 authors to be a viable category
.....1. Author categories must have at least 3 authors to be viable.

(http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/Awards%20FAQ.html)

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.

> I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
> on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
> got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor
> category?)

>Heya, this fan of Gondorians supports this question ;-) Why not a Gondorian

category if there is a Rohirrim one?

As I said before, we had no idea there would be 27 Gondor stories (and
that's just in Men!) I thought there would be more Rohan and Numenor
stories. As for Elves, I just didn't think there would be enough say,
Mirkwood or Rivendell stories to make a category. In hindsight...

>I understood, Ainaechoiriel wanted as many awards as possible, other wise I

would not understand poetry, drabbles, WIP, Rohan, Drama etc.

>Thus I support a category Gondor.

>Drama or Horror, on the other hand, are for me misleading categories.

Why? There are Drama movies and horror movies. Friday the 13th would not be
in the same category as The Pianist.

>I missed one of my favourite Men-LoTR stories because it was in the

category Drama, and in Horror I read more Silmarillion stories than Horror
stories.

Again, having the authors pick their category will make this easier. Then
an author can decide if their scary Silm story should be in Horror or The
Silm.

>Thus I support a categorization along the main races and make under

categories for Gondor, Rohan, Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.

I doubt there would be enough out there for a Moriquendi category. As for
Sindar and Noldor, possible, but they get mixed together an awful lot.

>I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a under category for Men,

Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line more along Second age, Early
Third Age, Pre-War-of-the-Ring, War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.

Again, I do think it's good and makes sense to have the Time/Books
categories there for their own sakes and also as backups. Some stories are
easy to categorize. Others are not. So putting it in Silm because it's set
in the Second Age might be a good thing. As it was, there were some Second
Age subcategories and such other there when we could find a group of five or
more to fit them.

>Thus we would have for example

"Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
"Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
If the subcategories have not enough stories they would be subsumed into one
category higher.
I'm all for only delinneating main categories and having suggestions for
subcategories. Because we won't know what we have until all the
Nominations are in.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sulriel [mailto:Sulriel@htcomp.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - length of voting season, /
ballot availability

>So the main thing for me (regardless of the length of voting season) would

be to have the ballots available as early as possible. I would
*like* to have them at the start of reading season, then the voting season
could be an open two weeks, (or four weeks) and it wouldn't matter as much.

That wouldn't be a problem. In fact, anyone could have had a ballot before
Reading Season: Just save the last check ballot! There were few errors by
then and probably just typos. The corrected check ballots were changed into
ballots only by changing the header and footer.

Putting ballots up after the last Check Ballot is no problem at all.

Anyone opposed?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: CC [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post-Mortem: Author Comments

> Ah, but the trouble still remains. Am I not worthy of being
> considered for a drama award for writing Immortal? But then do eschew
> my chance at a Horror award with Lure of the Darkness? And next year,
> my drabbles and filk will be elligible. Who limits me there?
>
>You know... Maybe it's just that I don't take these things at heart. I

don't even think I'm good so winning an award means that people liked my
stories.
Only that.

Some people do, some people don't. That's one reason I like this type of
awards. There is competition for those who want it, but it's secondary to
something everyone wants: feedback.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Miller [mailto:amy_j12000@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:44 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagories

>Don't know that I really have a say in all this, since I was unable to

participate in any of the reading, voting, etc. BUUUT, I would like to see a
catagory added for next year.

If you're a member you have a say. If you're new as of after Voting Season,
though, you may not have much to go on. You still have a say in any changes
we suggest.

>Crossovers are included, why not AUs? Many, many, MANY wonderful AUs out

there and they should be recognized.

We had quite a few AU's recognized, I think, just not a main category. Are
you suggesting it? Well, put it in the database. It's certainly worth
consideration.

>And, since I am sticking my nose in things, shouldn't those stories

published in the previous calendar year be the only ones eligible? Close of
2004 to nominating season 2005, i.e.

No, it's not feasible because of the hugeness of the fandom. We can maybe
see on ff.net when a story was posted, but not on all sites. An old story
could easily be reposted elsewhere and look "new". And besides, there might
be a gazillion wonderful stories written before we started the MEFAs. And a
trillion that were but we just didn't find 'em. At ASC, maybe a few hundred
stories get posted in a year. Here, thousands! Tens of thousands!

>Also, IMHO, WIP should be in a separate catagory, regardless of topic. Only

finished pieces should be included in the other awards.

I'd put that one to a poll, perhaps, but I think it's the same as for
completed stories. A drama is not a humor piece is not a horror story, etc.

>I'll go back to the corner now.

No reason to hide. Stick around.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing



--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:
>
> 3 topics:
> Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit
> their intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is
> a genuine interest breakup.

>I agree, natural categories for races. It's the places I'm wondering about.

See below.

>I guess my point is that if Rohan and Numenor were singled out, why not

Lothlorien? Or The Shire? Or Rivendell? Etc... If you choose one place, it
doesn't seem fair not to choose others, to at least see if they're viable
categories. (I know Romance had a Rivendell category, so that could have
been broken out into a place and other stories in the elves could have too,
I'm
sure)

It wasn't about fair or unfair. It was more of a guess at what was out
during a brainstorming session over IM with Shadow975. Why her? She was
there and she agreed to help.

BTW: If you want to catch me on IM, I'm Ainaechoiriel. Just be sure to
identify yourself right away. I get a little spooked by IMs from strangers.
In fact, the first thing I usually say to strangers who IM me is: Identify
yourself. So just IM me and say "Hi, I'm so and so from the MEFAs" and I
won't be spooked.

>I agree too, too many categories dilutes the purpose, and in actuality,

that's what it felt like when Rohan and Numenor were accorded special
categories, though they could have easily stayed in Men. I mean, it was
tough to get Numenor viable as it was, right?

See above, just a arbitrary brainstorm of what might be out there. Mystery
and Orcs were added by an as yet not codified process before Nomination
Season began. No new categoreis were added once Nomination Season began. I
think that is a good rule to keep. Once Nomination Season starts, main
categories are set.

But we should probably come up with a precedure for adding or changing
categories.

>Fifty stories feels about right to me for a top limit.

It works at ASC. Any other comments on the limit of 50?

>
>I snipped here because those all looked logical to me...it cuts down on the

number of stories per category, without getting ridiculous.

That's why it seems to have kept the peace at ASC.

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower
> bound, though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at
> least 3 authors for authors.

>Now that we have a better idea of the spread we might get, maybe we should

raise that to 7x2 stories and (left at) 3 for authors.

Put that up as a new topic and let's see if there are other suggestions or
comments on that number. I'm okay with 7. Or 8. I'm, believe it or not,
rather indecisive. ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

I'm not sure if you're against limits on entries by an author or for them.
But either way, there won't be any.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: bljean@aol.com [mailto:bljean@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:03 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: I don't know what you'd call the topic


Does this (what I quoted below) imply limiting the number of entries by an
author somehow? I know I felt chagrined to have so many entries, when I
looked at the lists later--this was because most of them I submitted myself.
I was going thru a bad patch, and looking for feedback at the time, and so
submitted a bunch of my own stuff since I figured nobody else would.

Insecurity raises its head... (dh read one of my stories aloud to the kiddos
last night, and what I had thought so charming on paper or monitor sounded,
read aloud, boring and impossibly dull. And so I look at my positive
comments once more and bless those who took the time to read and leave
encouraging words, while again resisting the compulsion to chuck the writing
in the dustbin)

Aargh. Sorry.
Lin

In a message dated 12/1/2004 2:07:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine or
twelve people walk away with all the goodies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems

>I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about

Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>

Rehearsals are fun. When the chicken was supposed to crow, we had an
explosion. When we needed and explosions, we had a chicken. And the Roman
soldiers were wearing Poodle skirts. Yes, Poodle skirts.

Sigh, but only on the first day. There were other silly things the next
day. Tomorrow is a dress rehearsal and the last day for silliness.

>This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots

available in the files section during reading season.

These aren't really FAQ things. So you guys may have to remind me when the
time comes. Relying on my memory is not a wise thing.

>Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading season

up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
announce the results.

Does any other Awards program out there do this? Do the Oscars, Emmies, or
Grammies? No, I don't think so.

>Ainae, I know I've said it before, but thank you. Thank you, all the

vote coutners, categorizers, and everyone else. But especially thanks
to Ainae. I was a Mithrils judge and I know how much time that took.
So I do have *some* idea of how tough it was for you - and I know you
did much more than I did as a judge. So hear, hear! for Ainae & Co.

Thanks. I actually would appreciate delegating some more this next year.
Six months is what this took. I'm supposed to be a writer, too....

>Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will

satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of my
suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for veto
by you.

So does anyone object to having authors categorize? I haven't seen any. Do
we call this one final or do we give it more time?

>One suggestion - if the authors are choosing the categories, could we

have them choose the subcategories as well? I think this year there
were some stories that would fit a certain subcategory but the
categorizers just didn't know it. I think if we had some predefined
subcategories and asked the authors to note if they wanted their story
to run in a subcategory, it would make things a lot more consisten.

I'm thinking it will work like this:

When asking for permission, we give the author a mulitple chose of all the
categories. They suggest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. They give a few
suggestions for subcategories. Because yes, they do know their stories
best.

>Both of these are part of the logistical issues I had thought of, but

that I didn't want to write out if you weren't interested in the idea.
I think the multiple cateogires idea could work, but after seeing your
reply, I don't think it's necessary. You've answered all the issues I
had.

Great. I'm thinking eventually we will have an Awards committee rather than
just myself that helps run the post-mortem and such. It may not be this
next year, but maybe the next after that. We just have to be sure that we
know what the MEFAs are and what needs to always remain.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Don't be so hard on yourself! At least your word order makes sense. (Mine
doesn't always!) :-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to sound overly critical.
I've been a huge cheerleader for these awards and think very highly of them.
Maybe I can get my foot out of my mouth if I yank on it hard enough. ;)

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Debating whether the season will be open or run in segments is still
> open.
> Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to all the info out
> there is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there.
> They only had to look.
> Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two people
> vote-by-proxy and posted their votes for them.

=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net


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Yes, it's in the FAQ. The present limit is 5 stories by 2 authors for
viability. For Authors, it was 3 authors. To subcategorize, we just tried
to group them based on what we knew (mainly through subcategory suggestions,
pairings, etc.). Again the 5x2 rule existed. There needed to be five poems
by at least 2 authors to make a Poetry subcategory.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: zafiro_v [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:45 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Stories per Main Category



Thank you for the info. Was there a minimn number of stories per category?
When did you decide it was a good idea to split categories? If we had a rule
about that it would need less discussion...

CC









Yahoo! Groups Links

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:07 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories

>My only comment on that then, if you're going to specify counting periods,

then you do not offer an Amnesty Day. For one thing, that drags out the
counting so that the original counter feels obligated to stay and count it,
or it makes it difficult for someone new to step in and collect the ballots
and count them.
Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified, we still
had a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.

Yes we did. Amnesty Day was actually a selfish wish that a lot of other
people decided was a good idea. There doesn't have to be one next year.
I'm not going to say I wish I didn't have one this year though. I'm glad I
did. But next year, I hope I don't need it. I'd like to use Reading Season
better and make Voting Season easier on myself.

>I was thinking a 2 week voting season would keep the counters interested

for the whole thing, plus give a little time if RL issues cropped up.

I don't know if it would make it easier or not to keep the counters around.
I don't think it would give any time for RL issues to come up. Let's get
some suggestions (2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 3 weeks) and we'll put them in
a poll.

>--Ainaechoiriel

MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

The categories and awards for 2004 were:

Adventure (Black Gate / Pelennor / Helm's Deep)
Crossover (PotC / Hidalgo / Indiana Jones)
Drama (Turin / Frodo Baggins / Nimrodel & Amroth)
Elves (Lothlorien / Imladris / Grey Havens)
Hobbits (Mayor of Hobbiton / Master of Buckland / Thain of Great
Smials)
Horror (Morgoth Bauglir / Eye of Sauron / Witch-King of Angmar)
Humor (Tom Bombadil / Bilbo Baggins / Barliman Butterbur)
Lord of the Rings (FotR / TTT / RotK)
Men(Faithful / Kings / Stewards)
Mystery (Cuivienen / Pukelmen / Barrow-Wight)
Numenor (Elros / Tar-Palantir / Tar-Miriel)
Orcs (Barad-dur / Minas Morgul / Orthanc)
Rohan (Theoden / Eomer / Eowyn)
Romance (Luthien and Beren / Tuor and Idril / Aragorn and Arwen)
The Hobbit (Shire / Mirkwood / Lonely Mountain)
The Silmarillion (Ainulindale / Valaquenta / Akallabeth)

I think these are good, but I can see room for tweaking. These are my
suggestions for next year, and they are quite possibly the result of a
finals-addled brain. Feel free to reject or offer your own
suggestions.

* Drama - There are too few pictures of Turin and Nimrodel & Amroth. I
would suggest we choose different titles, but I don't have very good
suggestions. Thinking practically, it might help to choose three LotR
characters with a fair amount of drama in their story. Eowyn and
Denethor jump to mind. Oh, please, let me make Denethor banners...

* Elves - Thinking practically, again, we might want to rethink the
Grey Havens. Why not make the third prize award Mirkwood (I have a
suggestion for The Hobbit to avoid that title there, but I'll go into
that in a minute). I suggest this because there are many illustrations
of Mirkwood from the books and I'm sure in fanart, where as I don't
think as many for The Grey Havens.

* Hobbits - The order of the awards always seemed odd to me. Perhaps
I'm the only one bothered by this kind of thing... but the Thain is
the oldest and most prestigious office ("But in that war the North
Kingdom ended; and then the Hobbits took the land for their own, and
they chose from their own chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the
king that was gone.", Prologue). The Master is also an important
position: "the authority of the Master of the Hall (as the head of the
Brandybuck family was called) was still acknowledged by the farmers
between Stock and Rushey. ", "A Conspiracy Unmasked". And the
mayoralty is of course an office, but a rather unimportant one: "As
mayor almost his only duty was to preside at banquets, given on the
Shire-holidays, which occurred at frequent intervals.", "Prologue". In
light of this, I suggest Thain=first, Master=second, and Mayor=third.
(Sorry for the ramble!)

* Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed under Men as
subcategories. The awards could then be Numenor, Gondor, and Rohan
(or, if you prefer the main Ring War powers, perhaps Gondor, Rohan,
and Harad? Think of the potential for great desert banners!)

* Mystery - I want the Entwives! This is one of the greatest mysteries
in all Tolkien (IMHO), and thanks to the movies we have lots of
pictures of Ents that could be used. I leave it up to you which place
to put it in, but I think this would be a great award. (Added: I
requested Pukel-men below for Drabbles. Maybe substitute Entwives for
that one here?)

Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest changing the name
to somehow include all pieces about forces of evil, not just orcs. I
know Werecat has a great piece on Tevildo, a servant of Morgoth, that
I wanted to nominate but which did not seem appropriate for this
category. Also, I am proposing a new category below that I would like
Orthanc for. Can we use Moria here instead?

* Romance - For practical reasons (because there's so little art out
there to work with) you might want to consider changing Luthien and
Beren, and Tuor and Idril. Maybe the three major canonical romances in
LotR? (Aragorn and Arwen, Faramir and Eowyn, Sam and Rosie)

* The Hobbit - if you go with my suggestion to use Mirkwood for Elves,
you could change this Mirkwood Award to The Misty Mountains Award or
The Laketown Award.

Now, for my additions. (I know, I know... almost done here.) I would
like to request three additions to the genres:

1. Poetry
* First: "The Road Goes Ever On" Award
* Second: The "Where Now the Rider" Award
* Third: "Eärendil was a Mariner" Award
(The three poems I most associate with hobbits, men, and elves; these
are completely negotiable)

2. Drabbles
* First: The Hobbits Award
* Second: The Dwarves Award
* Third: The Pukel-men Award
(Get it? They're short...)

3. Nonfiction
* First: The Rivendell Award
* Second: The Minas Tirith Award
* Third: The Orthanc Award
(major centres of scholarship at end of TA)

And that's it. Sorry this was so long.

Marta

> Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified,

we still

> had a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.
>
> Yes we did. Amnesty Day was actually a selfish wish that a lot of

other

> people decided was a good idea. There doesn't have to be one next

year.

> I'm not going to say I wish I didn't have one this year though. I'm

glad I

> did. But next year, I hope I don't need it. I'd like to use

Reading Season

> better and make Voting Season easier on myself.
>

For what it's worth, I really appreciated amnesty day, and I know some
other people did, too. Of course I did not have to count the votes,
but I think if voting stays by category, keeping amnesty day is a very
good idea.

Is there any other way we can make amnesty day counting smoother,
short of removing the day entirely? I don't know what the problems
were behind the scenes, so I can't even begin to speculate.

Marta

>
> >I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
> Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
> have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>
>
> Rehearsals are fun. When the chicken was supposed to crow, we had

an

> explosion. When we needed and explosions, we had a chicken. And the

Roman

> soldiers were wearing Poodle skirts. Yes, Poodle skirts.
>

Pshaw, that's nothing. At last year's dress rehearsal we had four
sheep (one of those in power ranger costume), three wise men, two
shepherds, and a spaceman and a cowboy who were supposed to be
shepherds (and were by opening night. But there costumes were being
mended, and since everyone else were in costume, they insisted on
wearing their costumes - from Halloween).

> >This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
> available in the files section during reading season.
>
> These aren't really FAQ things. So you guys may have to remind me

when the

> time comes. Relying on my memory is not a wise thing.
>

Not that mine's any better, but I'll try to remember to remind you.

> >Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading

season

> up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks

or

> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
> announce the results.
>
> Does any other Awards program out there do this? Do the Oscars,

Emmies, or

> Grammies? No, I don't think so.
>

It was only a suggestion. I was just trying to think of ways to help
people make better use of reading day. But it's probably not
necessary.

<snip>

> >Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
> satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of

my

> suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for

veto

> by you.
>
> So does anyone object to having authors categorize? I haven't seen

any. Do

> we call this one final or do we give it more time?
>

I say give it a little time. 48 hours, maybe? I remember back before
nomination season, there was some issue or other that people didn't
think we gave enough discussion time, for people on the other side of
the world who were asleep while we Americans were doing all the
discussing.

<snip>

> When asking for permission, we give the author a mulitple chose of

all the

> categories. They suggest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. They give a few
> suggestions for subcategories. Because yes, they do know their

stories

> best.
>

Yes. But I think we need a list of suggested subcategories as well.

Btw, while I'm thinking about it - can we add "novel" to the required
subcategories (just like poetry and drabble were in their own
subcategory)? I was thinking about this the other day, and longer
works (say, over 40,000 words) really shouldn't compete with shorter
ones. They have more time to draw a readership and there's more to
comment on.

<snip>

> I'm thinking eventually we will have an Awards committee rather than
> just myself that helps run the post-mortem and such. It may not be

this

> next year, but maybe the next after that.

That's probably a good idea. Give you some backup and some people to
hash out ideas with.

Not that I'm volunteering, of course. ;-)

Marta

I was talking with my husband Anthony about these awards, and
specifically the vote counting process. He has designed websites
before and enjoys doing it as a hobby. Last year he created a website
for online registration to a conference held by a nonprofit
organization I volunteer for, which was a big sucess. We both agreed
that a website designed specifically for voting would save huge
amounts of work and hassle when it came to counting votes.

Our idea, which is just preliminary based on a little bit of
discussion, and could be tweaked however necessary, would be a website
where voters would go, enter their votes on a form, and the website
would perform the necessary calculations of characters without spaces.

If desired, the site could automatically post to the group once each
day all the votes cast that day. Or all votes could be posted to a
database on the site. It would also be possible to allow nominators
to nominate directly on the site. Lots of different things would be
possible, and Anthony would want to have extensive discussion with
Ainae and the rest of the group to make sure it was just the way we
wanted it.

Anthony is willing to do the work involved. I know Ainae has server
space, so hopefully she would be able to host it.

The major benefit I see to this is cutting down the workload for Ainae
and all the staff. It would be a fair bit of work building it, but
once finished it would automatically take care of most of the tasks
that took so much time and effort this year. I know as one of the
counters, that pretty much all the errors came from human mistakes
such as typing a vote score onto the wrong line in a spreadsheet, or
making an error in transferring a total from spreadsheet to database.
We are already relying on a computer tally of the votes (throught the
Word character counting function), this would just eliminate all the
middle steps where the errors creep in. And if any questions arose
about the accuracy of the counts, we could always go in and hand count
as a backup.

So, Ainae, if you are interested in pursuing this idea as a
possibility, let me know, and I can have Anthony sub to the list and
talk to you directly about what he can and can't do.

Elana

--- Larian <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------

> I was under the mistaken impression that voting
> would open on day 1 of the voting season, and
> all the categories could be voted on
> throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read
> during voting season.

Same here. In the end I couldn't vote because I
wasn't sure what would be when and my RL schedule
is so variable that I knew that everything would
just get too messy if I tried to do it all - even
with the amnesty day.

I know that if I knew I had a set period of
however long, then I could probably sort out
things I wanted to read and review a lot better.

Naresha.

=====
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com

> >You know... Maybe it's just that I don't take these
> things at heart. I
> don't even think I'm good so winning an award means
> that people liked my
> stories.
> Only that.
>
> Some people do, some people don't. That's one
> reason I like this type of
> awards. There is competition for those who want it,
> but it's secondary to
> something everyone wants: feedback.
>

That's right, and for those to like competition there
are enough awards so their chances of getting one
increases. I still think too many categories is no
real competition, and quite complicated to vote but
that's my opinion.

CC

=====
http://www.geocities.com/zafiro_v/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walbatross/join http://www.livejournal.com/users/zafiro_v/



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-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 12:28 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] PM: Tweaks to Current Categories

>I think these are good, but I can see room for tweaking. These are my

suggestions for next year, and they are quite possibly the result of a
finals-addled brain. Feel free to reject or offer your own suggestions.

I had at least one of my own. Maybe more.

>* Drama - There are too few pictures of Turin and Nimrodel & Amroth. I

would suggest we choose different titles, but I don't have very good
suggestions. Thinking practically, it might help to choose three LotR
characters with a fair amount of drama in their story. Eowyn and Denethor
jump to mind. Oh, please, let me make Denethor banners...

We already have an Eowyn (thus far). I've been thinking Faramir is quite an
angsty guy. However, and I think this is worth nothing, most of the banners
that won, WEREN'T screen captured. So does it really matter that there
aren't pictures?

>* Elves - Thinking practically, again, we might want to rethink the Grey

Havens. Why not make the third prize award Mirkwood (I have a suggestion for
The Hobbit to avoid that title there, but I'll go into that in a minute). I
suggest this because there are many illustrations of Mirkwood from the books
and I'm sure in fanart, where as I don't think as many for The Grey Havens.

The problem with pictures from books is copyright. I've stated on the site
that the MEFAs aren't responsible for getting permission. The artist making
the banner is. If anyone comes to me saying they have a problem with a
banner because of copyright material, I'm going to send them back to whoever
made the banner. Screencaps, then, are not such a problem. But like I
said, most of the banners that won weren't screen captured. Anyway, there
were a lot of screen caps for the Gray Havens and none of Mirkwood. Just
thrown out there for info purposes.

And the problem with Mirkwood besides is that we had very few submissions
for it.

>* Hobbits - The order of the awards always seemed odd to me. Perhaps I'm

the only one bothered by this kind of thing... but the Thain is the oldest
and most prestigious office ("But in that war the North Kingdom ended; and
then the Hobbits took the land for their own, and they chose from their own
chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the king that was gone.", Prologue).
The Master is also an important
position: "the authority of the Master of the Hall (as the head of the
Brandybuck family was called) was still acknowledged by the farmers between
Stock and Rushey. ", "A Conspiracy Unmasked". And the mayoralty is of course
an office, but a rather unimportant one: "As mayor almost his only duty was
to preside at banquets, given on the Shire-holidays, which occurred at
frequent intervals.", "Prologue". In light of this, I suggest Thain=first,
Master=second, and Mayor=third.
(Sorry for the ramble!)

The order wasn't anything particular. And I doubt most non-Hobbit fans
remember this much about the history. The first place award was Frodo at
first "The Ring-Bearer". Because he is the most prominent of the four
Hobbits in the Fellowship. Merry was next as Master... Because he and Pip
were the other two that had titles, and he was the next oldest. Pip was the
youngest so he came third. The first was later changed to Sam, who did have
a title: Mayor, but also because Frodo was used elsewhere.

>* Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed under Men as subcategories.

The awards could then be Numenor, Gondor, and Rohan (or, if you prefer the
main Ring War powers, perhaps Gondor, Rohan, and Harad? Think of the
potential for great desert banners!)

Subcategories don't get their own banners.

* Mystery - I want the Entwives! This is one of the greatest mysteries in
all Tolkien (IMHO), and thanks to the movies we have lots of pictures of
Ents that could be used. I leave it up to you which place to put it in, but
I think this would be a great award. (Added: I requested Pukel-men below for
Drabbles. Maybe substitute Entwives for that one here?)

Ooh, I want the Dead Marshes!

>Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest changing the name to

somehow include all pieces about forces of evil, not just orcs. I know
Werecat has a great piece on Tevildo, a servant of Morgoth, that I wanted to
nominate but which did not seem appropriate for this category. Also, I am
proposing a new category below that I would like Orthanc for. Can we use
Moria here instead?

No, I think we're going to go with Villians. That was a suggested change
that just hasn't been brought up Post-Mortem yet. Villains broadens that
out to include all baddies.

>* Romance - For practical reasons (because there's so little art out there

to work with) you might want to consider changing Luthien and Beren, and
Tuor and Idril. Maybe the three major canonical romances in LotR? (Aragorn
and Arwen, Faramir and Eowyn, Sam and Rosie)

Actually, I had picked the three main Elf-Man unions. And the artwork
warning goes out here, too. (Why? Just because it needs to be said
multiple times to avoid lawsuits and such). For screen-cappers those would
be great. We can get pics of them. But that's just for screen-cappers.
But remember we want to not have duplication so using Sam and Rosie here
would mean we shouldn't use him for Hobbits, likewise Faramir and Eowyn for
Drama or Rohan.

>* The Hobbit - if you go with my suggestion to use Mirkwood for Elves, you

could change this Mirkwood Award to The Misty Mountains Award or The
Laketown Award.

Why did I choose Mirkwood and not the Misty Mountains or Laketown even when
Mirkwood is hard to get submissions for? Because I'm a die-hard Legolas
fan! And there's no Legolas Award. There's no Thranduil Award (he's his
daddy, after all). Nothing. Sigh. I just had to have something to represent
my guy in some small way.

Can we find a place for a Legolas Thranduilion Award somewhere?

>Now, for my additions. (I know, I know... almost done here.) I would like

to request three additions to the genres:

>1. Poetry

* First: "The Road Goes Ever On" Award
* Second: The "Where Now the Rider" Award
* Third: "Eärendil was a Mariner" Award (The three poems I most
associate with hobbits, men, and elves; these are completely negotiable)

I'd put that one to a vote. It sounds good, but is it workable. Just might
be.

>2. Drabbles

* First: The Hobbits Award
* Second: The Dwarves Award
* Third: The Pukel-men Award
(Get it? They're short...)

I don't know about pulling the Drabbles out as their own category. They're
so short anyway. Vote on that one, too?

>3. Nonfiction

* First: The Rivendell Award
* Second: The Minas Tirith Award
* Third: The Orthanc Award
(major centres of scholarship at end of TA)

The only problem is that I don't think it would be viable. Especially if we
raise the limit from 5 to 7 or 8.

>And that's it. Sorry this was so long.

No problem. Do remember to separate these out and put them in the database.
I WILL get confused if having to rely on my memory and my humungous inbox.

We WILL have some category and award titles polls out eventually. But I
want to wait on those until we sort out some more stuff, like how many
stories makes a category viable, etc.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

How loud should I shout it? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just a) didn't have the know-how, and b) don't have any money to pay
someone who does. Didn't want to ask and burden anyone, but if anyone
offers......I'd love it!

And yes, I have space to host it. (Though today that computer is being
obstinately offline, so banners are not available--as they are the only
thing presently hosted there exclusively. Didn't know it was offline 'til I
got to work, so can't fix it 'til I get home.

I'd have one concern: fraud. Does Anhtony know how we can better guarantee
that people aren't stacking the vote? There have been a lot of very smart
web developers at ASC working on making their awards secure when voting
online. It *could* be an issue.

Oh, and one other thing, which ASC does and we would want: votes done online
would also be forwarded onto the list. Is that workable?

Would Anthony like to join our group here? Find me on IM? Or join the Staff
group?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 1:39 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] An offer from my husband



I was talking with my husband Anthony about these awards, and specifically
the vote counting process. He has designed websites before and enjoys doing
it as a hobby. Last year he created a website for online registration to a
conference held by a nonprofit organization I volunteer for, which was a big
sucess. We both agreed that a website designed specifically for voting
would save huge amounts of work and hassle when it came to counting votes.

Our idea, which is just preliminary based on a little bit of discussion, and
could be tweaked however necessary, would be a website where voters would
go, enter their votes on a form, and the website would perform the necessary
calculations of characters without spaces.

If desired, the site could automatically post to the group once each day all
the votes cast that day. Or all votes could be posted to a database on the
site. It would also be possible to allow nominators to nominate directly on
the site. Lots of different things would be possible, and Anthony would
want to have extensive discussion with Ainae and the rest of the group to
make sure it was just the way we wanted it.

Anthony is willing to do the work involved. I know Ainae has server space,
so hopefully she would be able to host it.

The major benefit I see to this is cutting down the workload for Ainae and
all the staff. It would be a fair bit of work building it, but once
finished it would automatically take care of most of the tasks that took so
much time and effort this year. I know as one of the counters, that pretty
much all the errors came from human mistakes such as typing a vote score
onto the wrong line in a spreadsheet, or making an error in transferring a
total from spreadsheet to database.
We are already relying on a computer tally of the votes (throught the Word
character counting function), this would just eliminate all the middle
steps where the errors creep in. And if any questions arose about the
accuracy of the counts, we could always go in and hand count as a backup.

So, Ainae, if you are interested in pursuing this idea as a possibility, let
me know, and I can have Anthony sub to the list and talk to you directly
about what he can and can't do.

Elana





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Yahoo! Groups Links

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

PM Suggestion: Do not allow WIPs that
have not been updated in longer than
one year.

o Disallow them
o Allow them


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1530386

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
MEFAwards group:

PM Suggestion: Voting Season should be
a) broken up so that categories run in
separate periods with deadlines or b)
should be one open block for all
categories.

o a) catgories in periods
o b) all categories in one block


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1530405

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

As of today, we have 175 members. I don't want to see these polls decided
but just 10-15 people. I know every group has lurkers. I lurk on some
myself. But let's do one thing this year's elections (US) did right: get
out the vote!

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:14 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] New poll for MEFAwards




Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the MEFAwards group:

PM Suggestion: Do not allow WIPs that
have not been updated in longer than
one year.

o Disallow them
o Allow them


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/surveys?id=1530386

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!












Yahoo! Groups Links

>And, since I am sticking my nose in things, shouldn't those stories

published in the previous calendar year be the only ones eligible? Close of
2004 to nominating season 2005, i.e.

No, it's not feasible because of the hugeness of the fandom. We can maybe
see on ff.net when a story was posted, but not on all sites. An old story
could easily be reposted elsewhere and look "new". And besides, there might
be a gazillion wonderful stories written before we started the MEFAs. And a
trillion that were but we just didn't find 'em. At ASC, maybe a few hundred
stories get posted in a year. Here, thousands! Tens of thousands!

This is a tricky one, because while some sites have dates, others don't.
And a story may have been first at ff, buried for a couple of years, then
moved to OSA--where a new publication date is assigned.

I personally like limiting it to the last year, eliminating all those that
were nominated last year(minus the WIP). But it is tough to check.

khazar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Part of the original post seems to have vanished, but it looks like someone is worried about a
handful of people reaping the wins. Am I correct?

This is an unfortunately common complaint. The more prolific writers are often singled out,
because their output makes the chances of success better. And there are also a handful of
writers whose work is so clearly superior that to "handicap" them by limiting wins seems unfair.
But there is also a legit argument that seeing the same people win several categories makes the
whole thing look somewhat biased.

I haven't yet found a good solution to this--and I'd love to hear some.

khazar
I'm not sure if you're against limits on entries by an author or for them.
But either way, there won't be any.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>* Hobbits - The order of the awards always seemed odd to me. Perhaps I'm

the only one bothered by this kind of thing...

I too was confused at the order here. I am a hobbit person, and to me the order of the awards was illogical. To my mind it should be 1st - Thain, 2nd - Master, and 3rd - Mayor.

Marigold

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn Martinez-Byrne [mailto:dlmbyrne@gte.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 3:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Catagories

>This is a tricky one, because while some sites have dates, others don't.

And a story may have been first at ff, buried for a couple of years, then
moved to OSA--where a new publication date is assigned.

Exactly. There's no way to police the published dates unless we do open
ourselves up as an archive. Personally, I've already got enough on my
plate, and not money to pay someone to do this.

>I personally like limiting it to the last year, eliminating all those that

were nominated last year(minus the WIP). But it is tough to check.

The first isn't feasible but the second has been the case since the
beginning. In fact, I'm working on our 2004 Nominations database. I'm
trying to get the WIPs out right now. Then all that will be left is title
and author. That's where we can see what was previously nominated and is
not elligible again. I'm going to put the WIPs in a new database. They are
elligible only once more...when they are finished.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Hi Ainae,

<snip>

>> * Drama - There are too few pictures of Turin and Nimrodel &

Amroth. I

>> would suggest we choose different titles, but I don't have very

good

>> suggestions. Thinking practically, it might help to choose three

LotR

>> characters with a fair amount of drama in their story. Eowyn and

Denethor

>>jump to mind. Oh, please, let me make Denethor banners...

> We already have an Eowyn (thus far).

Right, but under the current scheme she's a Rohan award. I'm
suggesting making Rohan a subcategory of Men, so there would be no
need for an Eowyn Award. If we go with my suggestion for Romance, then
she's used there (unless you'd be willing to allow both a
Faramir&Eowyn Award, and an Eowyn Award? The titles aren't identical,
which I think would be the main source of confusion).

> I've been thinking Faramir is quite an
> angsty guy.

He is also out if we use Faramir&Eowyn for Romance/Second. Other
possibilities that spring to mind are Theoden, Boromir, and Gollum
(all of which strike me as pretty dramatic characters). Of course, if
we keep Rohan separately Theoden's out. I'm open to suggestions.

> However, and I think this is worth nothing, most of the banners
> that won, WEREN'T screen captured. So does it really matter that

there

> aren't pictures?

I tried to go look at the banners ... is this true of the categories
where it was possible to use screencaps as well?

I don't know how much it matters. I am not a huge fan of the Silm, and
I don't want to knock it, but personally I would identify more with
characters whose stories I was more familiar with.

>> * Elves

<snip>

> The problem with pictures from books is copyright.

Good point; I hadn't thought of that.

<snip>

>> Hobbits

<snip>

>> In light of this, I suggest Thain=first,
>> Master=second, and Mayor=third.

> The order wasn't anything particular. And I doubt most non-Hobbit

fans

> remember this much about the history.

Hey, I'm not a huge hobbit fan. I write mostly Men. ;-) But I am
pedantic and enjoy researching the halflings.

You may be right. But given it's the hobbit authors who will most
likely be entering this category, and the hobbit readers who will be
seeing the banners, shouldn't their opinion be important in this
category?

> The first place award was Frodo at
> first "The Ring-Bearer". Because he is the most prominent of the

four

> Hobbits in the Fellowship. Merry was next as Master... Because he

and Pip

> were the other two that had titles, and he was the next oldest. Pip

was the

> youngest so he came third. The first was later changed to Sam, who

did have

> a title: Mayor, but also because Frodo was used elsewhere.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with your reasoning for
why they were in that order this year. But if nothing was meant by the
order could we redo it for next year? I don't think the titles are
necessarily tied to Sam, Merry, and Pippin, though many of the banners
did feature them.

>> * Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed under Men as
>> subcategories.
>> The awards could then be Numenor, Gondor, and Rohan

<snip>

> Subcategories don't get their own banners.

Right. I'm not suggesting that they do here. Sorry if I'm not being
clear.

As it stands right now most of the races have their own category -
Elves, Hobbits, Orcs (or Villains). But Men are split among three
categories: Men, Numenor, Rohan. I suggest making Numenor and Rohan
subcategories under Men, just like Gondor was for this year. Then the
awards for *all* of men could be The Numenor Award = first, The Gondor
Award = second, The Rohan Award = third.

> * Mystery - I want the Entwives! This is one of the greatest

mysteries in

> all Tolkien (IMHO), and thanks to the movies we have lots of

pictures of

> Ents that could be used.

<snip>

> Ooh, I want the Dead Marshes!

Ooh, that would be good, too. You know, there's nothing to say we
can't have *both* Entwives and Dead Marshes... *g* Personally I'm most
in favor of Entwives - Dead Marshes - Barrow-wights, but I'd also
accept Cuivienen instead of Barrow-wights (see my aforementioned Third
Age bias over Silm... I'm not saying Ring War is best, just that
that's where my thinking lies.)

> Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest changing the name

to

> somehow include all pieces about forces of evil, not just orcs.

<snip>

> No, I think we're going to go with Villians.

Sorry, I'm not clear what you're disagreeing with. I agree with the
name Villains. Or were you disagreeing with my suggestion of Moria
over Orthanc?

>> * Romance

<snip>

>>Maybe the three major canonical romances in LotR? (Aragorn
>>and Arwen, Faramir and Eowyn, Sam and Rosie)

> Actually, I had picked the three main Elf-Man unions.

Which makes sense in its own way. I'm just suggesting that the pairs
I've suggested might be more familiar to more people. I know about
Beren and Luthien (though I don't have as strong of a connection to
them as I do to F/E, A/A, and S/R). Tuor and Idril I had heard of but
really barely knew who they were.

<snip>

> For screen-cappers those would
> be great. We can get pics of them. But that's just for screen-

cappers.

True. But I'd guess there's at least as much fanart out there of
Faramir and Eowyn as of Tuor and Idril, or even Beren and Luthien (of
course people would still have to get permission, or create their own)
.

> But remember we want to not have duplication so using Sam and Rosie

here

> would mean we shouldn't use him for Hobbits,

Right. As it is right now, we aren't. We're using Mayor of Hobbiton -
which could include pictures of Sam, but also of Frodo or Will
Whitfoot (I think there's some fanart of him?), or just of Hobbiton in
general.

> likewise Faramir and Eowyn for
> Drama or Rohan.

Agreed. I've made alternate suggestions above.

>> The Hobbit

<snip>

> Why did I choose Mirkwood and not the Misty Mountains or Laketown

even when

> Mirkwood is hard to get submissions for? Because I'm a die-hard

Legolas

> fan! And there's no Legolas award. There's no Thranduil Award

(he's his

> daddy, after all). Nothing.

I *do* understand. (Notice my shameless begging for a Denethor award
above...) But I think people will associate Legolas with Mirkwood more
under Elves than under TH. Legolas never appears (by name) in TH.

> Can we find a place for a Legolas Thranduilion Award somewhere?

I was actually going to suggest that we consider having a movieverse
award. Movieverse stories would not be *restricted* to this category,
but there are some fabulous stories that make good use of the changes
in the movies, or explain some troubling parts of the movies, or just
make good use of movie imagery. If you're interested in this, I
suggest the three following awards:

1. The Legolas Award
2. The Haldir Award
3. The Figwit Award

>> Now, for my additions.

<snip>

>> 1. Poetry

> I'd put that one to a vote. It sounds good, but is it workable.

Just might

> be.

I think it would be. There's a lot of poetry about, and I think it
takes a very specific skill to write a poem; they should be allowed to
compete together as a genre.

>> 2. Drabbles

> I don't know about pulling the Drabbles out as their own category.

They're

> so short anyway. Vote on that one, too?

As a drabble writer, it takes a *very* unique skill to write a
drabble. We've discussed how different a skill is required to write,
say, humour and drama. Well, for me, there's an even bigger difference
in how I write my drabbles and longer pieces, from how I write humour
and drama (or any other two genres that are closer to the same length)
. There are lots of them out there, and they generated a lot of
comments this time around. I would really like to see them compete
against each other instead of being so spread out.

>> 3. Nonfiction

> The only problem is that I don't think it would be viable.

Especially if we

> raise the limit from 5 to 7 or 8.

You leave it to me to find these research articles. One of my greatest
joys is finding a new Tolkien article (I *told* you I'm a research
article). I can think of eight articles that I would have nominated,
without even thinking for very long. But because this is the Middle-
earth Fan*FICTION* Awards I assumed that nonfiction was ineligible.

>> And that's it. Sorry this was so long.

> No problem. Do remember to separate these out and put them in the

database.

I understand. I'll break this up, but probably tomorrow.

Marta

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:

>
> > How we can do that in the future? Either we need another

volunteer with the know-how or we need the winners to add that.
Hmm...but I liked that the bar was uniform even though I don't want
the banners to be.

> >

Greetings all ~

Please pardon me sticking my nose in out of lurkage, but I thunk a
wee thought. As someone who occasionally tinkers in image graphics
on her handy, dandy Paint Shop Pro, I wondered ... When accepting
next year's banner contestant entries, could it be specified somehow
that each banner should have a blank bar left at the bottom? Then
when winners are selected and banners need to be tailored for
specific awards, the artists themselves could add the wording.
Organizers could even specify what font would be used, picking a
common font type that most image-manip programs would have.

Or perhaps just have each entrant include the aforesaid blank strip
at the bottom, and 'hire' someone to go through, afterwards, and put
on the appropriate label for each award. Or 'hire' a couple
someones ...

*scratches head* Dang, that sounds like work, no matter how I twist
it. Anywho, I mainly wondered if requesting entrants to make their
banner entries with a blank place for the lettering might at least
cut down on a little of the work ...

Think I'll slink away now, in hopes someone else can pluck something
of use from my mumbling! :-D
Cheers ~

Erin

Good idea. Now if I could just figure out why my other computer (the one
that is my web server) won't get on the network anymore.....

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: erin_hobbit_ofbt [mailto:tgatwater@gbis.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: PM - fanart

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
>
> > How we can do that in the future? Either we need another
volunteer with the know-how or we need the winners to add that.
Hmm...but I liked that the bar was uniform even though I don't want the
banners to be.
> >



Greetings all ~

Please pardon me sticking my nose in out of lurkage, but I thunk a
wee thought. As someone who occasionally tinkers in image graphics
on her handy, dandy Paint Shop Pro, I wondered ... When accepting
next year's banner contestant entries, could it be specified somehow
that each banner should have a blank bar left at the bottom? Then
when winners are selected and banners need to be tailored for
specific awards, the artists themselves could add the wording.
Organizers could even specify what font would be used, picking a
common font type that most image-manip programs would have.

Or perhaps just have each entrant include the aforesaid blank strip
at the bottom, and 'hire' someone to go through, afterwards, and put
on the appropriate label for each award. Or 'hire' a couple
someones ...

*scratches head* Dang, that sounds like work, no matter how I twist
it. Anywho, I mainly wondered if requesting entrants to make their
banner entries with a blank place for the lettering might at least
cut down on a little of the work ...

Think I'll slink away now, in hopes someone else can pluck something
of use from my mumbling! :-D
Cheers ~

Erin









Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

> Good idea. Now if I could just figure out why my other computer

(the one that is my web server) won't get on the network anymore.....

>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

Does that have something to do with why I can't get the banners page
to come up?
http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html
"Cannot find server - The page cannot be displayed"

I know you are incredibly busy and have about a thousand other things
tugging at you - and that's just in regards to the MEFAs! But I
wondered if I missed the banners being moved or some other notice.
Please forgive me being a pain ... You have done SO much incredible
work on this whole awards, and I can truthfully say the success of it
did wonders towards making me feel good about fandom contests
again! :-)

*slinks back into lurkage*

~ Erin

Never throw out a network card.

The network card that is presently in DS9 (my web server) is one that
stopped working oh, 4 years ago or so.

Apparently the one I'd had in it previously stopped working late last night.
So at 11pm, I had to perform computer surgery. Not something I enjoy unless
I'm in the mood. So I go down to the basement to find all my extra network
cards, and hope they work.

I've got 3. Two are ISA. One is PCI. It's the one that stopped working 4
years ago, but it's my only option, as that computer doesn't have any ISA
slots. So I put it in and voila, it works.

So, never throw out a network card. (Unless it catches fire or something.)
It just may magically start working again.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yep, that was why. Should be back up in a few minutes.

That "never throw a network card out" thing has saved me twice now.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: erin_hobbit_ofbt [mailto:tgatwater@gbis.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:54 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: PM - fanart



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

> Good idea. Now if I could just figure out why my other computer

(the one that is my web server) won't get on the network anymore.....

>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

Does that have something to do with why I can't get the banners page to come
up?
http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/AwardsBanners.html
"Cannot find server - The page cannot be displayed"

I know you are incredibly busy and have about a thousand other things
tugging at you - and that's just in regards to the MEFAs! But I wondered if
I missed the banners being moved or some other notice.
Please forgive me being a pain ... You have done SO much incredible work on
this whole awards, and I can truthfully say the success of it did wonders
towards making me feel good about fandom contests again! :-)

*slinks back into lurkage*

~ Erin







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
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Yahoo! Groups Links

I had one comment about the Author awards that I forgot to mention
earlier.

Often some authors will write something with other authors, but also
by themselves. For example, I believe Altariel and Isabeau both wrote
individual pieces in the LotR category but they also wrote "Horses and
Verses" together. Therefore LotR/Authors had three entries: Altariel,
Isabeau, and Altariel&Isabeau. Comments made for A&I counted toward
neither A nor I.

Could an author request that they don't have a joint listing? I.e.,
Altariel and Isabeau could decide to have "Horses and Verses" listed
under both of their names (and so no A&I entry), or to have cowritten
stories listed under a collective name. Here are the two options, as I
see it:

*****
Option 1:

A1. Altariel:
[stories written alone]
"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Isabeau)

A2. Isabeau:
[stories written alone]
"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Altariel)

*****
Option 2:
A1. Altariel:
[stories written alone]

A2. Isabeau:
[stories written alone

A3. Altariel and Isabeau:
"Horses and Verses"

*****

I think many authors might prefer option 1. I know I would have, and
would want it even more if reviewers were allow to post the same
author comment in more than one category.

Maybe we could have the default be option 1, but if writers *only* or
*mainly* write as a pair (i.e., Cassia and Siobhan) they could ask to
be listed together. (We could remind authors of this when we're
writing them to ask how they want their stories categorized.)

What do you think?

Marta

My opinion would be that the authors should be commented upon as individuals for the stories they wrote alone, and commented upon as a team for stories they wrote together.

After all, when you are judging their skill as authors, a large part of what you are judging in a co-author situation is how well the two authors write *together* - that's a totally separate thing from how they write as individuals. Co-authors have to meld their personal writing styles so that their story doesn't read as if two people wrote it (unless that is their intention with a specific piece)- both of them need to be able to mesh their own style so that the transition from one author to another is not noticable. It is a shame when it's evident in an otherwise decent story that Author A wrote this paragraph, and Author B wrote the next.

Marigold

>
>
>I had one comment about the Author awards that I forgot to mention
>earlier.
>
>Often some authors will write something with other authors, but also
>by themselves. For example, I believe Altariel and Isabeau both wrote
>individual pieces in the LotR category but they also wrote "Horses and
>Verses" together. Therefore LotR/Authors had three entries: Altariel,
>Isabeau, and Altariel&Isabeau. Comments made for A&I counted toward
>neither A nor I.
>
>Could an author request that they don't have a joint listing? I.e.,
>Altariel and Isabeau could decide to have "Horses and Verses" listed
>under both of their names (and so no A&I entry), or to have cowritten
>stories listed under a collective name. Here are the two options, as I
>see it:
>
>*****
>Option 1:
>
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Isabeau)
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Altariel)
>
>*****
>Option 2:
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone
>
>A3. Altariel and Isabeau:
>"Horses and Verses"
>
>*****
>
>I think many authors might prefer option 1. I know I would have, and
>would want it even more if reviewers were allow to post the same
>author comment in more than one category.
>
>Maybe we could have the default be option 1, but if writers *only* or
>*mainly* write as a pair (i.e., Cassia and Siobhan) they could ask to
>be listed together. (We could remind authors of this when we're
>writing them to ask how they want their stories categorized.)
>
>What do you think?
>
>Marta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

I agree with Marigold. When reviewing an individual author, you are
reviewing that author. But when you are reviewing co-authors, you are
reviewing the team.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: MarigoldCotton@aol.com [mailto:MarigoldCotton@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:08 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM - Author Comments for Co-authored stories


My opinion would be that the authors should be commented upon as individuals
for the stories they wrote alone, and commented upon as a team for stories
they wrote together.

After all, when you are judging their skill as authors, a large part of what
you are judging in a co-author situation is how well the two authors write
*together* - that's a totally separate thing from how they write as
individuals. Co-authors have to meld their personal writing styles so that
their story doesn't read as if two people wrote it (unless that is their
intention with a specific piece)- both of them need to be able to mesh their
own style so that the transition from one author to another is not
noticable. It is a shame when it's evident in an otherwise decent story that
Author A wrote this paragraph, and Author B wrote the next.

Marigold

>
>
>I had one comment about the Author awards that I forgot to mention
>earlier.
>
>Often some authors will write something with other authors, but also by
>themselves. For example, I believe Altariel and Isabeau both wrote
>individual pieces in the LotR category but they also wrote "Horses and
>Verses" together. Therefore LotR/Authors had three entries: Altariel,
>Isabeau, and Altariel&Isabeau. Comments made for A&I counted toward
>neither A nor I.
>
>Could an author request that they don't have a joint listing? I.e.,
>Altariel and Isabeau could decide to have "Horses and Verses" listed
>under both of their names (and so no A&I entry), or to have cowritten
>stories listed under a collective name. Here are the two options, as I
>see it:
>
>*****
>Option 1:
>
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Isabeau)
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone]
>"Horses and Verses" (co-written with Altariel)
>
>*****
>Option 2:
>A1. Altariel:
>[stories written alone]
>
>A2. Isabeau:
>[stories written alone
>
>A3. Altariel and Isabeau:
>"Horses and Verses"
>
>*****
>
>I think many authors might prefer option 1. I know I would have, and
>would want it even more if reviewers were allow to post the same author
>comment in more than one category.
>
>Maybe we could have the default be option 1, but if writers *only* or
>*mainly* write as a pair (i.e., Cassia and Siobhan) they could ask to
>be listed together. (We could remind authors of this when we're writing
>them to ask how they want their stories categorized.)
>
>What do you think?
>
>Marta
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the
mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote
his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to
him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the
end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high
beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK



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--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

> I agree with Marigold. When reviewing an individual author, you are
> reviewing that author. But when you are reviewing co-authors, you

are

> reviewing the team.
>

After reading Marigold's post, I agree with her as well. Consider me
convinced. :-)

(Does that mean I don't have more suggestions? Heck no... )

Marta

I was looking thorugh the databases and notice how many ties there
were and how close some of the categories were. I know there can only
be three winners (except where ties occur, and even there not much
more than three) and I don't want to take away from the people who won
awards. But it seems like there should be one way to give some of the
really good stories a bit more positive publicity.

Maybe next year we could award an honourable mention to people who got
a certain number of votes (say, 15?) but didn't place in the top three
positions. Or who placed within a certain number of votes of the third
place winner. At the very least, I think those who tied with the third
place should be honoured in some way.

We don't have to give them a banner like we do for first, second, and
third. But we could display the titles of the "honourable mentions" on
the web page (on a separate page from the winners, I think?), and they
could mention that their story won an "MEFA Honourable Mention" in
their story summers.

What do you think? I know in a lot of categories (Men jumps to mind)
some very good stories got a lot of votes, but because the category
was so competitive they did not place in the top three spots.

Marta

I agree with Marta that this sounds like a very good
idea. I think it works best saying any stories within
x marks of 3rd place.

Nerwen

--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---------------------------------

I was looking thorugh the databases and notice how
many ties there
were and how close some of the categories were. I know
there can only
be three winners (except where ties occur, and even
there not much
more than three) and I don't want to take away from
the people who won
awards. But it seems like there should be one way to
give some of the
really good stories a bit more positive publicity.

Maybe next year we could award an honourable mention
to people who got
a certain number of votes (say, 15?) but didn't place
in the top three
positions. Or who placed within a certain number of
votes of the third
place winner. At the very least, I think those who
tied with the third
place should be honoured in some way.

We don't have to give them a banner like we do for
first, second, and
third. But we could display the titles of the
"honourable mentions" on
the web page (on a separate page from the winners, I
think?), and they
could mention that their story won an "MEFA Honourable
Mention" in
their story summers.

What do you think? I know in a lot of categories (Men
jumps to mind)
some very good stories got a lot of votes, but because
the category
was so competitive they did not place in the top three
spots.

Marta




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--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

> * Men - I suggest Numenor and Rohan be subsumed

under > Men as

> subcategories.

I think this is a good idea as well because the
decision that these had catogories seemed very
arbitary.

> Orcs - This category is great, but I would suggest
> changing the name
> to somehow include all pieces about forces of evil,
> not just orcs.

Could this be done in a way that it focuses on those
characters whio are percieved as evil, without
requiring them to be actually evil?


Aditional catoriries

> 1. Poetry

This would make sense and ease the problems with
trying to get poetry subcatogories viable.

> 2. Drabbles

In the same way I think this is a good idea.



My other comment on catogories would be that it seemed
very confusing to have the three different types of
overall catogory and it seemed that some of them were
so large amnd others so small that the awards were not
actually equal in merit.

Nerwen





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> My other comment on categories would be that it seemed
> very confusing to have the three different types of
> overall catogory and it seemed that some of them were
> so large amnd others so small that the awards were not
> actually equal in merit.
>
> Nerwen

I had the same feeling.

I personally would take only either the time-line
or the race as main category
and make all other things subcategory
or sub-subcategories.

For example, I did not understand why
"Father and sons" by Dwim is
categorized as a drama
while "In his brother's shadow"
by Celandine Brandybuck
is categorized as "Men".
OK, second categorization was mine ;-)
and I did it as I understood the manual.

Why is the darker story by Dwim more a drama
than the lighter story by Cel?
Both render the Gondorian brothers "Mir".

Why is a story about men categorized
as adventure and not as men?
I had my difficulties the whole time
with this many tiered categorization.

Why is a story categorized as Horror
while it is about Elves, time First Age?
I would find it easier if the whole
categorization were only one tree
and not many trees.
So this story would have been
in case of time as first category:
First Age, Elves, Drama, Horror.
I can understand why Ainaechoiriel
introduced the category Horror,
because in the one-tree categorization
First Age, Elves, Horror would
possibly not become viable.
But subsuming Horror into Drama
would solve this problem.

Though I can understand the various
tiers of categorization,
and Ainaechoiriel proposed to let
the authors decide,
I have still problems with such a
variation in categorization.

So, my proposed tree would be:
a) Poetry, Drabble, short story, novel
b) First Age,
Second Age,
Third Age I (Pre-War, includes Hobbit),
Third Age II (War of the Ring - LoTR),
Forth Age
Multi-age
c) Elves (Noldor, Sindar, Avari, else),
Men (Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, else) , Hobbits, Dwarves,
Orks and other creatures, Multi-race
d) drama, love, humour, essay
e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery, crossover, society, philosophy,
techniques

I would put the story type first because this is
for me the largest difference concerning writing skills.

Then comes the time or the races.
I personally prefer time, because many stories
involve various races, while multi-age is seldom.

Depending on the number of nominated stories
Elves and Men should be subdivided
as to achieve that the various sections in the end
contain within limits an evenly distributed
number of fics.

My proposal should be seen only as a draft.
Feel free to tear it asunder, to reassemble, or to add ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---

> Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could
> split reading season
> up? Have a month reading season for races & places,
> then two weeks or
> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for
> Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third
> month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the
> end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the
> votes, then you
> announce the results.

I really like this suggestion for two reasons; 1) I
did not have time to vote this year as all my
availible time during the voting season went to trying
to keep up with counting (thus even the story comments
I had written earlier did not get sent) and 2) It
gives more clear time usage. However, I know that
Aenae has already vetoed this, so I have another
suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
Have all the catogories open from the start of the
reading season to mid October. THen close the vote
and count it. This has the advantage that the
counting is not done at the same time as the voting
(also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging)
and allows more time to vote and has less confusion
about dstes.

Nerwen



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--- elanor of aquitania <elanor@codacode.net> wrote:

> So, my proposed tree would be:
> a) Poetry, Drabble, short story, novel
> b) First Age,
> Second Age,
> Third Age I (Pre-War, includes Hobbit),
> Third Age II (War of the Ring - LoTR),
> Forth Age
> Multi-age
> c) Elves (Noldor, Sindar, Avari, else),
> Men (Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, else) , Hobbits,
> Dwarves,
> Orks and other creatures, Multi-race
> d) drama, love, humour, essay
> e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery,
> crossover, society, philosophy,
> techniques

I really like this idea, but a few nitpicks. The
first being where would the line between short story
and novel go?
The second is that many stories do cross over the line
between the 3rd and 4th ages. However this need not
be a problem, but I think it needs thinking about. I
think your level d) is confusing, I'm not quite sure
what the purpose of it is. As I see it e) could just
as well lead directly on from c), but I may be missing
something. :)
The real advantage of this is that it is very clear
exactly where a story should go and has fewer overall
catogories and a more comprehensive scheme.
Like I said, I really like this, just think that it
needs a bit more thinking through. :)

Nerwen



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> suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
> Have all the catogories open from the start of the
> reading season to mid October. THen close the vote
> and count it. This has the advantage that the
> counting is not done at the same time as the voting
> (also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging)
> and allows more time to vote and has less confusion
> about dstes.
>
> Nerwen

Very good, I would support this:
a long time for reading and voting
and a separate time afterwards for counting.

Though Ainaechoiriel tried to explain why it is better
to count during the voting time I only understood,
that it was organized like that and fixed with the counters.

But if the counters know beforehand
when the all-categories-counting is scheduled
they can opt in or out
according their real life schedule.
Moreover, I think one would get more volunteers
for a time after voting season.

Best wishes Elanor

> > d) drama, love, humour, essay
> > e) adventure, romance, sex, horror, mystery,
> > crossover, society, philosophy,
> > techniques
>
> I really like this idea, but a few nitpicks. The
> first being where would the line between short story
> and novel go?

Hi Nerwen,

yes, this a point of discussion.
I think one should define a certain number of characters
to draw the line.
Any suggestions ?

Lets count "Father and sons" by Dwim which is 294656
or "Messages" by Shakes which 566655 characters
without spaces.
"Messages" is for me definitely a novel
and "Father and sons" I would count also as a novel
but this might be arguable.

Thus I would set the line at 250000 characters.
Others might prefer another number.

> The second is that many stories do cross over the line
> between the 3rd and 4th ages. However this need not
> be a problem, but I think it needs thinking about.

That would be Multi-age either or the author should decide,
which age is more important for the story.

> I think your level d) is confusing, I'm not quite sure
> what the purpose of it is. As I see it e) could just
> as well lead directly on from c), but I may be missing
> something. :)

Hmm, I simply thought of perhaps non-viable categories
as drabble - third age I - orcs - drama - horror
which would be subsumed into drama.
And if therein are not enough drabbles nominated
then one level higher
drabble - third age I - orcs
and so on.


But if there are many nominations then
another subcategory (as for Men or Elves) might be useful:
short story - Forth Age - Men - Rohan - humour - romance
(into this I would count Tanaqui's "A Knight's service")
or
short story - Forth Age - Men - Rohan - love - sex
(into this I would count Tanaqui's "Later" and
"Influence of Kindred Desires")

As it was "A Knight's service/ Later" was nominated as one
and thus I would account both together
into the latter category.

I personally would prefer if each segment has
about 5-15 fics (rule IV B says
5 stories by two authors make the category viable).
To achieve an homogeneous distribution I would
even prefer a limit of 10 fics per segment.

Best wishes Elanor

That's what I was thinking as soon as I read the subject line. We could
give Honorable mention for any stories within X (5 points?) of 3rd.

A reminder: Please put these suggestions, individually, in the database.
Why? Because my brain gets addled quite easily. I'm a victim of megaStress.
It's hard to concentrate, hard to keep things organized in my head, hard to
remember things. This is all becoming very chaotic to me. I can't keep
track of it all. Please help me in this regard. Please put these in the
database. That's one place that I can go back to and look at what's been
suggested, what's decided and what hasn't. Don't leave me at the mercy of
my inbox and my unreliable memory.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Nerwen Calaelen [mailto:nerwen_calaelen@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:41 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] PM - honourable mention


I agree with Marta that this sounds like a very good idea. I think it works
best saying any stories within x marks of 3rd place.

Nerwen

--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---------------------------------

I was looking thorugh the databases and notice how many ties there were and
how close some of the categories were. I know there can only be three
winners (except where ties occur, and even there not much more than three)
and I don't want to take away from the people who won awards. But it seems
like there should be one way to give some of the really good stories a bit
more positive publicity.

Maybe next year we could award an honourable mention to people who got a
certain number of votes (say, 15?) but didn't place in the top three
positions. Or who placed within a certain number of votes of the third place
winner. At the very least, I think those who tied with the third place
should be honoured in some way.

We don't have to give them a banner like we do for first, second, and third.
But we could display the titles of the "honourable mentions" on the web page
(on a separate page from the winners, I think?), and they could mention that
their story won an "MEFA Honourable Mention" in their story summers.

What do you think? I know in a lot of categories (Men jumps to mind) some
very good stories got a lot of votes, but because the category was so
competitive they did not place in the top three spots.

Marta




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