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> I still say easier to write a long comment for a long story.
> But there will
> very likely be more comments for short stories than for long
> ones. Volume
> makes up for the difference in length.

For me that sounds as
you agree that those stories are in different league
but you hope the votes will balance out
according to a larger number for short stories
and longer votes for long stories.

What I do not understand, why then one could
not put them into different categories.

Let compete the few long votes between themselves
and let the many short votes compete between themselves.

But in reality I disagree with this view.
I made the length of the vote according to the importance
the story had for me.
Many a short story got a long review from me.
The longest review by far was for a short story,
though this was by accidence as I had forgotten there is a cap
on the number of words accounting to points ;-)


In my experience, the long stories have not as good a speech
as many short stories.
As a good speech for me is the paramount feature
to make me an adorer, the longer stories have to have
very good plots or other merits to get my adoration ;-)

>
>
> > 3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
> > accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a
> shorter multi-
> > part piece, just because it will spend more time on the
> front page of
> > archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
> > season.
> >
> > I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
> > shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing.
> Even if they
> > do, the differences show that longer works require a
> different skill
> > set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
> > their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).
>
> >I think long stories will generate votes from readers who
> have read them
> outside of reading season. At least I found no time to read
> new long stories
> during reading time. I had enough to do to reread those
> already known to me
> and to comment them (and then missing to vote on Dwim's story makes me
> really sad, sigh) .
>
> I disagree. I read several long stories both in Reading Season and in
> Voting Season. During the off-season, I'm lucky to get
> anything read. And
> when I do, it's usually the shorter stories. Hey, I've got
> 590 completed
> LOTR stories in my infamous spreadsheet. Those are stories
> I'd like to
> read. (I joked with Dwimordene last night that we should require all
> nominations to be storeis in my spreadsheet...so I could weed
> it down!) The
> 1 chapter ones disappear (I delete them once they are read) a
> lot faster
> than the 24 chapter ones. The awards motivated me to read a
> lot of LOTR
> stories. I read more during Voting Season alone that I
> probably had all
> year before. And some of them were very long indeed. I
> Return by Coriel,
> for example.
>
> So I believe the awards motivates NEW readers to read the
> long ones. It's
> not just those who already know the story. I had never heard
> of I Return
> before. Perchance to Dream had been in my spreadsheet for
> quite some time.
> (Hallelujah it's gone!--You don't even want to know the
> number WIPs I'm
> tracking....Actually, the number of Completed stories is
> more. I have 605
> WIPs I'm tracking...in four or five fandoms. The 590
> completeds were LOTR
> alone. Total there is 705! Scary, isn't it?) But I'd never
> gotten around to
> reading it.

I admire your zeal :-)
I normally need to have at least a Faramir lurking around in the story
to goad me into the plot.

So if there is an elven story which makes me go through it
the story has to have merits IMO. I vote accordingly.

Nevertheless, I think long stories scare the voters,
see the discussion of reading all chapters of a WIP.
Therefore I think still the long stories should have their own segment.
Let us agree to disagree on this point ;-)
It is your project, it is your decision.

<much snipping>

> >Yet, after 5 years you could add another award category:
> >"stories which thrive in the fan-community" ;-)
>
> No, because that WILL smack of elitism. And while I'd love to think
> Oswiecim would blow any other DS9 story out of the water in
> such a category,
> it would hurt me greatly if it didn't. Because let's face it, people
> replace old memories with new ones. Hey, Oswiecim MIGHT get
> remembered (my
> friend's comment shows it does and I do still get similar
> comments now and
> then) but it also MIGHT NOT. And then I'd feel very bad indeed.

Hmm, I cannot deeply empathize with these feeling. I have no such stories.

And for me this is not elitism, for me awards are recommendations.
Thus, the feature of 'longstanding' admiration for stories
is an additional recommendation. Nothing more in it.

>
> I'm one who also values the competition side of the awards,
> though it is
> secondary. I WANT to win. I love feedback even when I
> don't, but I do love
> to win. And it hurt when I didn't have a story in the
> running for ASC two
> or three years ago (and very likely this year considerint the
> deadline is
> Feb. 1st.) It hurt when I got so few comments for the third
> part of my
> trilogy. My own fault really. It was posted two years after
> the second
> part. Some of my readers of the first part had faded away by then....
>
> And I've NEVER won Best DS9 Author. Not even Oswiecim's
> year. Saddens me,
> to be honest.
>
> So, no, I don't want to make an elitist award.

OK. OK. Let's drop this idea.
Though I had not the feeling of invoking elitism.
My fault.

>
> >I have no further ideas to add concerning the number of
> words, I only would
> like to see the long stories in another league.
>
> See above. Still against it. Scared to put it in a poll,
> too. Especially
> when only a small fraction of our membership is participating
> in the polls.
> HINT HINT You can keep trying to convince me, but I'm not there yet.

OK, then I try again ;-)
Long stories are what I personally admire.
Short stories are for me training, honing the skills, working with speech
and plots.

But long stories are about world building, character development,
extensive descriptions, long conversations.
IMO that needs much more writer's skills to hold the readers interest.
There is many a long story were I drop out due to fatigue
of reading again the same and the same.
Naturally I am thankful for the writer to share her story.
Nevertheless, I search for the next story which can hold me
enthralled. This feature of holding me interested is much
easier to achieve by a short story.

Therefore, these two types of stories are DIFFERENT for me.
I think, you agree, that they are different.
But if they are different, then IMO they should compete
between themselves.

>
> Oh, and to Marta's point:
> I was talking about this to Dwim, and I know I've posted it
> here before.
> Long and short do have the same elements and they have their
> own advantages
> and disadvantages.

> It's easier to find a good plot that
> voers (covers ?) a longer
> period of time. Finding a whole plot that takes place in 3
> days or less is
> not as easy. Thus novels are easier.

But the length of time covered is not the origin of the novel length IMO.
If you write a psychological piece you can write a whole book
out of the thoughts of one day.

And you can write a short story built of scenes covering years
and years.

> But filling a novel is
> hard. Not
> every day of those two years is exciting. So you have some
> filler. But
> it's got to be usefull filler..... No need for filler with
> short stories. So
> short stories are easier.

I agree about filler, but I think authors of short stories
work often much harder on the speech and the plot lines.
Many a long story is rather rambling.
IMO it is not so difficult to write long story
but to write a good long story.

I think it is easier to write a good short story.

>
> If anybody asks me which are harder, they get that answer.
> In a nutshell:
> both.
>
> I do feel novels will be DISADVANTAGED if they run in their
> own category. I
> think more people will be able to walk right by them,
> thinking, I'll get to
> that subcategory if I have time. Which they won't. I think
> they have a
> better chance of being read if they are together. And we
> don't have to try
> and figure where to make the breaking line.

You will have expected that I am inclined to disagree ;-)
There is not a better chance. As soon as the reader sees
the amount of chapters she will decide if to try the first pages
or not.

If she tries and gets hooked good for the story.
But if she rejects because of the amount of time involved
than it is the same if they are in their own compartment.

As reader's time is the most important issue IMO
you gain nothing by concealing the length.

I personally prefer long stories. I only have the problem
to find the good ones. For this the awards are a good marker.

This time I knew some of the long stories and I knew
which had me enthralled so I could decide faster which ones
I had to reread for comments.
Next time I believe I have to proceed as you and test much more
long stories.

> > > If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
> > > it's not
> > > good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> > > recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
> > comment for
> > > the author.
> >
> > That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
> > glad to have it clarified.
>
> >Hmm, I see it still as recommendations. This is what will
> appear in the
> web.
> This is what readers will see when they search for
> recommended stories.
> I will distribute the link to give hints on recommended
> stories if asked.
>
> That's fine. But my main purpose for putting them up there was for the
> authors. Not all of them are members here. I want them to
> be able to save
> off those comments and keep them. Hey, if anyone wants to read all my
> Oswiecim comments to decide if they want to read it, I'll
> gladly e-mail them
> to you. ;-) But I'm glad the feedbackers sent the feedback
> to me. And
> that's they way I see ff.net reviews too. It's one reason
> I've not liked
> the chaptering feature when it was added. It turned reviews
> into mostly
> post-more-encouragements rather than a review of the story.

I completely agree concerning the chaptering feature,
but on the other hand most authors seem to crave
for such encouragement. Thus, for the majority
of authors this feature is just right.

> You might find
> a mediocre Mary-Sue 20, chapter story with 300 reviews.
> Oswiecim has only
> 54. Which is the better story?

The one with the good reviews concerning plots and speech ;-)
The one with comments like "OH my god, please write more of this."
will most probably be a bit less satisfying.

Are my thoughts elitism ?

>
> But I digress. I want our comments to be reviews. That means that
> chapter-by-chapter comments won't be allowed next year
> either. That does
> give longer stories an advantage. If you write just two
> sentences (even of
> the same length) per chapter for two stories, one 2 chapters
> and the other
> 10, which will have the higher point count? Review the whole story.
>
> >For me the recommendation part is at least as important as
> > the feedback to
> > the authors. What are five feedbacks in comparison to what
> > the authors get
> > in fanfiction.net or in the forums?
>
> You'd be surprised. Sometimes, because the feedbacker knows
> it's for the
> awards they write more for the comment than they would for
> the author.

You see ;-)

> It's
> like writing a rewiew of a book that's goint to be read by newspaper
> readers, though it's addressed to the author.

I completely agree, this is my point :-)

> And, because
> ff.net may not
> have gotten the reader to read that particular story, the
> awards may. Story
> A may be so buried in ff.net that Reader B never finds it.
> But they find it
> in the awards and love it. They write a comment. Now Story
> A's author has
> feedback from Read B that she never had before.
>
> Remember that I commented on nearly 300 stories and authors
> this year. I
> can promise you I didn't read them all beforehand. And
> sometimes when I
> did, I didn't leave a review at ff.net just because I was in
> a hurry or
> whatever.
>
> And! The MEFAs are positive feedback. Negative and even constructive
> criticism goes against the voter here because it might get an
> unfavored
> story an award. So here it's ALL encouragement.

I still completely agree !

>
> >But clearly stated recommendations with small excerpts of
> >the story to get
> >a feeling for the writing style is something I would really
> >very much like
> >to see as a reader before I select a story.
>
> They can click the link to get a feeling of the writing style.

Yes, they can. But on the other hand they probably prefer
to read another reader's reaction beforehand.
For that the backsides of the books are used ;-)
Often, only if this hooks the book will be rummaged.
And only if the rummage hooks the book will be bought.

So I still do not see that the reviews to the authors
are more important than the recommendation issue.
The author WILL get her review anyhow
via MEFAwards.

But the recommendation is what makes MEFAwards
outstanding for the community IMO.
A banner an author gets also from Mithril awards.
The review itself is a very very fine feature
but a very private affair.
But the nomination and recommendation is
what will spread the story's fame in the internet
as well as the banner.
Of these three features
nomination, recommendation, banner,
to my knowledge the recommendation
is the distinctive feature of MEFAwards.
Therefore it is so important that you
created the respective web page!

These are my personal feelings.

>
>
> <snipping>
>
> > >>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
> >
>
> > > I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
> > > distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
> > > finished epics.
>
> >I do not rescind my earlier words,
> > I still see no difference between WIP and completed story.
>
> There is a BIG one. For one thing, they're unfinished. For
> another, you cut
> the potential reader population when you bring up a WIP.

OK, then either allow or forbid WIPs.
If you allow them then the voters should have
to treat them alike to complete stories.
Again my very personal opinion.

>
> >For me they are not in different leagues A and B with
> > respect to voting on
> > all the chapters written.
> > But I do bow to the majority and especially the MEFA Admin :-)
>
> Thanks. But the issue isn't closed or decided yet. In fact, Dwim, was
> against it when I spoke to her on the phone. Perhaps she'll
> find the time
> to post her reasons why here soon.
>
> Oh, by the by, I want to end the Post Mortem when December
> ends. With the
> exception of categories. We'll do those (which ones stay,
> which ones get
> added, different award titles, etc.) in January. Okay?
>

All OK with me :-)

Best wishes Elanor