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Msg# 3192
On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 26, 2004 - 3:08:16 Topic ID# 3192Can WiPs and Unfinished stories be good? Yes, absolutely. I can point
you to some that are good, or that were good WiPs before they were
finished. Am I biased as an author who does post WiPs? It's always
possible, but I've tried to include reasons for my position that have
stand independently of my status as an "interested" party.
The fundamental issue here seems to be one of the worth of a WiP,
since it's not as if they're competing with finished stories in these
awards or that, given the number of subcategories, this one creates an
intolerable administrative burden or that they're not clearly marked
for what they are. This worth (or lack of it) seems to have at least
two bases. There seems to be a notion that one can never judge a WiP
properly because the story may take a right turn to plot derailment
(and so invalidate a reader's laudatory comments, and who likes to
feel embarrassed to have praised something that ultimately went sour?
Or is it the notion that there is a totally objective standard of
worth of a story, inhering only in the finished product, that is
raising its head yet again?) or else that the author is violating some
sort of ethical duty owed the reader. I'll deal with the second issue
first.
One can argue that by posting a story, the author is thereby making a
promise to readers that s/he will complete it and therefore the reader
is not obliged to respond until such a time as the work is finished.
This is what I shall call the "social contract" theory of feedback.
Personally, I find this to be a weak basis for saying that a story is
not worth my time and effort to give feedback. Imo, feedback, like the
story itself, is a gift; you give it or you don't based on whether
you're moved by what you've read. I've read plenty of WiPs/Unfinished
stories that moved me to give feedback and which I would be sorry not
to have read. In these cases, giving feedback on them has been a very
enjoyable part of the reading experience.
The other issue is more complex, since there is a sense in which we
can't judge the work properly until it is complete and we've seen its
overall shape. I don't disagree. What I do disagree with is that a
WiP, competing only against other WiPs, should not compete because of
this. I am certainly capable of deciding that up until this point, the
story is interesting, entertaining, suspenseful, makes me want more,
etc. Some WiPs I can see are already falling apart at the seams--if
this were impossible to judge before seeing the finished product,
Tolkien would never have revised the first few chapters of FoTR
something like four times before continuing. It is very possible to
make judgments of quality for unfinished stories. They won't be the
same judgments we make for finished stories, but we're not asking WiPs
to be judged against finished stories, so the problem of
incommensurable standards doesn't arise.
Of course, some stories I fall out of love with by the time they're
complete, but this has equally happened to me in the case of finished
stories that I read only as completed stories. This phenomenon doesn't
mean my comments about a WiP at a previous time were not sincerely
meant. If I'm embarrassed by them or annoyed with the author for
having gone and messed up a perfectly good story, well, it happens.
Doesn't mean my comments hitherto were not worth making since they
were a judgment based on the evidence available to that date. And I
think we've all had the discussion about objective standards before.
Again, I don't know if either of these two positions actually play
into the argument against the worth of admitting WiPs to the awards,
but in case they do, I'd argue they aren't good reasons for barring WiPs.
Finally, if there is just a vague sense that WiPs are just inherently
unworthy of the investment of my time and effort to read them, let
alone write feedback, let me just raise a cautionary finger and point
to the Silm. Most of the Silm and HoMe (to say nothing of the aptly
named "Unfinished Tales") fall into the category of a permanent
WiP/Unfinished story, and yet we obviously do think they're worth
reading and writing about, and writing about at far greater length
than a few lines of commentary. So the notion that WiPs are inherently
inferior and not worth our attention is, imo, not well attested to, if
we go by the habits of this particular fandom. It certainly is not
attested to by our love of the on-going serial, another category that
should cause problems for us if we find WiPs not worth our time and
effort to read and think about, but obviously doesn't since we watch
them week after week on television and write fannish letters of
admiration about them before they are finished (if they are finished).
So yes, let WiPs and Unfinished stories compete against each other, I
say, and if they're not some readers' cup of tea, then they don't have
to vote for them or bother about them. After all, some people only
voted in certain categories based on what their interests
were--there's no reason that I can see why WiPs or Unfinished stories
should be treated any differently. If anything, I'm even more
interested in seeing an Unfinished/WiP story compete in an award 1/3
of whose purpose is to introduce readers to new reading material that
we might otherwise not read. Given that WiPs/Unfinished stories are
often barred from fandom competitions, this may be the only chance
that one has of seeing them evaluated "competitively", that is to say,
on the basis of writing comments that justify themselves (and so also
the story) to other readers.
Dwim
P.S. Since the WiP/Unfinished distinction seems to have been accepted
and will be used next year, does this mean an Unfinished story can run
three times? Once as "Unfinished", once as "WiP", and once as a
completed story? An Unfinished story can be updated, after all, and
that would mean it was eligible as a WiP the next year, and all WiPs
are allowed to run as completed stories. Apologies if this has already
been hashed out. I'm just a tad bit behind, here...
you to some that are good, or that were good WiPs before they were
finished. Am I biased as an author who does post WiPs? It's always
possible, but I've tried to include reasons for my position that have
stand independently of my status as an "interested" party.
The fundamental issue here seems to be one of the worth of a WiP,
since it's not as if they're competing with finished stories in these
awards or that, given the number of subcategories, this one creates an
intolerable administrative burden or that they're not clearly marked
for what they are. This worth (or lack of it) seems to have at least
two bases. There seems to be a notion that one can never judge a WiP
properly because the story may take a right turn to plot derailment
(and so invalidate a reader's laudatory comments, and who likes to
feel embarrassed to have praised something that ultimately went sour?
Or is it the notion that there is a totally objective standard of
worth of a story, inhering only in the finished product, that is
raising its head yet again?) or else that the author is violating some
sort of ethical duty owed the reader. I'll deal with the second issue
first.
One can argue that by posting a story, the author is thereby making a
promise to readers that s/he will complete it and therefore the reader
is not obliged to respond until such a time as the work is finished.
This is what I shall call the "social contract" theory of feedback.
Personally, I find this to be a weak basis for saying that a story is
not worth my time and effort to give feedback. Imo, feedback, like the
story itself, is a gift; you give it or you don't based on whether
you're moved by what you've read. I've read plenty of WiPs/Unfinished
stories that moved me to give feedback and which I would be sorry not
to have read. In these cases, giving feedback on them has been a very
enjoyable part of the reading experience.
The other issue is more complex, since there is a sense in which we
can't judge the work properly until it is complete and we've seen its
overall shape. I don't disagree. What I do disagree with is that a
WiP, competing only against other WiPs, should not compete because of
this. I am certainly capable of deciding that up until this point, the
story is interesting, entertaining, suspenseful, makes me want more,
etc. Some WiPs I can see are already falling apart at the seams--if
this were impossible to judge before seeing the finished product,
Tolkien would never have revised the first few chapters of FoTR
something like four times before continuing. It is very possible to
make judgments of quality for unfinished stories. They won't be the
same judgments we make for finished stories, but we're not asking WiPs
to be judged against finished stories, so the problem of
incommensurable standards doesn't arise.
Of course, some stories I fall out of love with by the time they're
complete, but this has equally happened to me in the case of finished
stories that I read only as completed stories. This phenomenon doesn't
mean my comments about a WiP at a previous time were not sincerely
meant. If I'm embarrassed by them or annoyed with the author for
having gone and messed up a perfectly good story, well, it happens.
Doesn't mean my comments hitherto were not worth making since they
were a judgment based on the evidence available to that date. And I
think we've all had the discussion about objective standards before.
Again, I don't know if either of these two positions actually play
into the argument against the worth of admitting WiPs to the awards,
but in case they do, I'd argue they aren't good reasons for barring WiPs.
Finally, if there is just a vague sense that WiPs are just inherently
unworthy of the investment of my time and effort to read them, let
alone write feedback, let me just raise a cautionary finger and point
to the Silm. Most of the Silm and HoMe (to say nothing of the aptly
named "Unfinished Tales") fall into the category of a permanent
WiP/Unfinished story, and yet we obviously do think they're worth
reading and writing about, and writing about at far greater length
than a few lines of commentary. So the notion that WiPs are inherently
inferior and not worth our attention is, imo, not well attested to, if
we go by the habits of this particular fandom. It certainly is not
attested to by our love of the on-going serial, another category that
should cause problems for us if we find WiPs not worth our time and
effort to read and think about, but obviously doesn't since we watch
them week after week on television and write fannish letters of
admiration about them before they are finished (if they are finished).
So yes, let WiPs and Unfinished stories compete against each other, I
say, and if they're not some readers' cup of tea, then they don't have
to vote for them or bother about them. After all, some people only
voted in certain categories based on what their interests
were--there's no reason that I can see why WiPs or Unfinished stories
should be treated any differently. If anything, I'm even more
interested in seeing an Unfinished/WiP story compete in an award 1/3
of whose purpose is to introduce readers to new reading material that
we might otherwise not read. Given that WiPs/Unfinished stories are
often barred from fandom competitions, this may be the only chance
that one has of seeing them evaluated "competitively", that is to say,
on the basis of writing comments that justify themselves (and so also
the story) to other readers.
Dwim
P.S. Since the WiP/Unfinished distinction seems to have been accepted
and will be used next year, does this mean an Unfinished story can run
three times? Once as "Unfinished", once as "WiP", and once as a
completed story? An Unfinished story can be updated, after all, and
that would mean it was eligible as a WiP the next year, and all WiPs
are allowed to run as completed stories. Apologies if this has already
been hashed out. I'm just a tad bit behind, here...
Msg# 3193
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by Marta December 26, 2004 - 15:10:49 Topic ID# 3192Good points all around, Dwim. I just wanted to reply to one little bit
at the end:
<snip>
WIP *or* an unfinished (but not both), and once more as a finished
story. I think this is more in keeping with the spirit of the original
distinction.
This year we had complete and WIP stories. But WIP stories were really
incomplete - they did not need to have been updated for any length of
time. Next year we are talking about subdividing incomplete (what we
called WIP) into two subcategories: those that have been updated in
hte last twelve months (WIPs) and those that have not (unfinished).
That's why I feel the way I do. But I'm certainly up to being
convinced otherwise!
Marta
at the end:
<snip>
> P.S. Since the WiP/Unfinished distinction seems to have beenaccepted
> and will be used next year, does this mean an Unfinished story canrun
> three times? Once as "Unfinished", once as "WiP", and once as aalready
> completed story? An Unfinished story can be updated, after all, and
> that would mean it was eligible as a WiP the next year, and all WiPs
> are allowed to run as completed stories. Apologies if this has
> been hashed out. I'm just a tad bit behind, here...My instinct is that a piece should be allowed to run twice: once as a
WIP *or* an unfinished (but not both), and once more as a finished
story. I think this is more in keeping with the spirit of the original
distinction.
This year we had complete and WIP stories. But WIP stories were really
incomplete - they did not need to have been updated for any length of
time. Next year we are talking about subdividing incomplete (what we
called WIP) into two subcategories: those that have been updated in
hte last twelve months (WIPs) and those that have not (unfinished).
That's why I feel the way I do. But I'm certainly up to being
convinced otherwise!
Marta
Msg# 3194
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by bljean@aol.com December 27, 2004 - 12:19:24 Topic ID# 3192Fascinating essay on WIPs, Dwim.
I must admit, I'm indebted to those who read my WIPs and comment along the
way. All too often their comments give me the heart to continue, when I'm ready
to chuck writing altogether, and sometimes their comments give me new insight
into a character, or an idea that wasn't in the original outline that I'm
happy to incorporate.
I'm afraid I would have quit writing LOTR fanfic a year or so ago if I hadn't
been receiving comments all along. I started out writing for my own pleasure,
and while I continue to do so, sometimes my own pleasure is not enough to
sustain the effort.
I second the comments that WIPs can be judged on their own merits. There are
a couple that I read that I long to see completed, one of which hasn't been
updated in over a year. I'll be surprised if the author ever returns to it. But
what is in existence is promising and well-written. Perhaps such should not be
compared to completed works, but I can see WIPs being judged against each
other.
Those who will be "judging" WIPs or "voting" with their comments are those
who are inclined to read WIPs, I suppose. If it's not your cup of tea, don't
drink it. Limit your reading to completed stories and vote on those!
I must admit that with the time constraints that hampered me this year, the
only ballot I read all the way through and voted on every story (well, stories
rated G to PG-13) was the Hobbits ballot. I made an effort to read and comment
on the drabbles on some of the other ballots. But I think a category of WIPs,
not measured against completed works, ought not to put anybody's nose out of
joint.
Lin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I must admit, I'm indebted to those who read my WIPs and comment along the
way. All too often their comments give me the heart to continue, when I'm ready
to chuck writing altogether, and sometimes their comments give me new insight
into a character, or an idea that wasn't in the original outline that I'm
happy to incorporate.
I'm afraid I would have quit writing LOTR fanfic a year or so ago if I hadn't
been receiving comments all along. I started out writing for my own pleasure,
and while I continue to do so, sometimes my own pleasure is not enough to
sustain the effort.
I second the comments that WIPs can be judged on their own merits. There are
a couple that I read that I long to see completed, one of which hasn't been
updated in over a year. I'll be surprised if the author ever returns to it. But
what is in existence is promising and well-written. Perhaps such should not be
compared to completed works, but I can see WIPs being judged against each
other.
Those who will be "judging" WIPs or "voting" with their comments are those
who are inclined to read WIPs, I suppose. If it's not your cup of tea, don't
drink it. Limit your reading to completed stories and vote on those!
I must admit that with the time constraints that hampered me this year, the
only ballot I read all the way through and voted on every story (well, stories
rated G to PG-13) was the Hobbits ballot. I made an effort to read and comment
on the drabbles on some of the other ballots. But I think a category of WIPs,
not measured against completed works, ought not to put anybody's nose out of
joint.
Lin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Msg# 3195
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 10:37:31 Topic ID# 3192GRRRRRRRRR!!!! I hate Yahooo!!!
Sorry, had to get that out of my system. I am posting via the web
because once again, I can't reach Starbase.
I had just finished my very long reply to Dwim's post and hit Send
when I got a "Page not Found" and the whole post disappeared.
I am NOT going to retype it. I'm going to summarize:
WIPs are eligible. I never entertained the thought that they weren't.
Unfinished, technically, means the same thing as "incomplete".
Incomplete stories are eligible if they were updated within 12 months
of the beginning of Nomination Season 2005.
There seems to be a misconception that there will be an Unfinished
subcategory this year. There will not. And if there ever is in the
future, it will not be called Unfinished. That would require
explanation to anyone who wasn't privy to this whole
discussion. "Never finished" would be more accurate. Get out your
thesauruses and try something better. And even then, it will be put
to a vote.
Because it comes down to this: Those who voted to exclude stories
that weren't updated did so because they'd rather not read them. You
can't get a vote if no one reads your story. It may be a great story
but if you can't get the reader there, you won't get any votes. This
is the same for any other bias out there. I don't like romance
stories. I would be very surprised if any romance story ever gets a
vote from me. I just don't read them. Many do, however, so it was
never put to a vote to exclude them or include them. I'm sure if I
did put it to a poll, I would lose. Actually, I wouldn't vote to
exclude them because I know a lot of people like to read them.
But WIPs were put to a poll, and the decision was made.
The only way a "never finished" story can be nominated in the awards
for 2005 is if it was last updated less than 12 months before the
beginning of Nomination Season 2005.
And there was another general rant about so few people voting: If you
don't vote on a poll, you have no say in the decision. Because
voting is how you have your say.
--Ainaechoiriel
Sorry, had to get that out of my system. I am posting via the web
because once again, I can't reach Starbase.
I had just finished my very long reply to Dwim's post and hit Send
when I got a "Page not Found" and the whole post disappeared.
I am NOT going to retype it. I'm going to summarize:
WIPs are eligible. I never entertained the thought that they weren't.
Unfinished, technically, means the same thing as "incomplete".
Incomplete stories are eligible if they were updated within 12 months
of the beginning of Nomination Season 2005.
There seems to be a misconception that there will be an Unfinished
subcategory this year. There will not. And if there ever is in the
future, it will not be called Unfinished. That would require
explanation to anyone who wasn't privy to this whole
discussion. "Never finished" would be more accurate. Get out your
thesauruses and try something better. And even then, it will be put
to a vote.
Because it comes down to this: Those who voted to exclude stories
that weren't updated did so because they'd rather not read them. You
can't get a vote if no one reads your story. It may be a great story
but if you can't get the reader there, you won't get any votes. This
is the same for any other bias out there. I don't like romance
stories. I would be very surprised if any romance story ever gets a
vote from me. I just don't read them. Many do, however, so it was
never put to a vote to exclude them or include them. I'm sure if I
did put it to a poll, I would lose. Actually, I wouldn't vote to
exclude them because I know a lot of people like to read them.
But WIPs were put to a poll, and the decision was made.
The only way a "never finished" story can be nominated in the awards
for 2005 is if it was last updated less than 12 months before the
beginning of Nomination Season 2005.
And there was another general rant about so few people voting: If you
don't vote on a poll, you have no say in the decision. Because
voting is how you have your say.
--Ainaechoiriel
Msg# 3196
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 10:39:50 Topic ID# 3192--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:
decision to include them. There are not two subcategories for them
subdividing incomplete stories. The vote was to exclude those not
updated in a year. That means we exclude the others.
--Ainaechoiriel
>really
> This year we had complete and WIP stories. But WIP stories were
> incomplete - they did not need to have been updated for any lengthof
> time. Next year we are talking about subdividing incomplete (whatwe
> called WIP) into two subcategories: those that have been updated inThe misconception again. "Unfinished" were discussed. There was NO
> hte last twelve months (WIPs) and those that have not (unfinished).
> That's why I feel the way I do. But I'm certainly up to being
> convinced otherwise!
decision to include them. There are not two subcategories for them
subdividing incomplete stories. The vote was to exclude those not
updated in a year. That means we exclude the others.
--Ainaechoiriel
Msg# 3197
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 10:46:28 Topic ID# 3192--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, bljean@a... wrote:
think if I was a hermit stuck alone on an island with an endless
stack of paper and pens, I'd still write. Even if no one else ever
read it. But when they do, and when they discuss it with me, it
helps me to keep writing. But then, that's why I have beta readers.
altogether or that they would run head-to-head with completed
stories. So have no fears there.
Yet there was a vote to exclude incomplete stories not updated in a
year and the vote passed. There are two remedies for this for anyone
upset by that rule: 1) bring it up again next year and see if you can
get it repealed--by a vote again and 2) encourage the writer of said
story to write more! There's nothing keeping anyone here from
writing feedback directly to an author all year long. Just because
stories that haven't been updated in a year aren't eligible doesn't
mean you can't read them and encourage the writer if you think they
are good. Who knows? Maybe the writer will decide to finish them.
--Ainaechoiriel
> Fascinating essay on WIPs, Dwim.It was that. More snippage to follow:
> I'm afraid I would have quit writing LOTR fanfic a year or so agoif I hadn't
> been receiving comments all along. I started out writing for my ownpleasure,
> and while I continue to do so, sometimes my own pleasure is notenough to
> sustain the effort.Yes, that's true. Sometime we need some outside encouragement. I
think if I was a hermit stuck alone on an island with an endless
stack of paper and pens, I'd still write. Even if no one else ever
read it. But when they do, and when they discuss it with me, it
helps me to keep writing. But then, that's why I have beta readers.
> I second the comments that WIPs can be judged on their own merits.There are
> a couple that I read that I long to see completed, one of whichhasn't been
> updated in over a year. I'll be surprised if the author everreturns to it. But
> what is in existence is promising and well-written. Perhaps suchshould not be
> compared to completed works, but I can see WIPs being judgedagainst each
> other.I never entertained the thoughts that WIPs would be excluded
altogether or that they would run head-to-head with completed
stories. So have no fears there.
> Those who will be "judging" WIPs or "voting" with their commentsare those
> who are inclined to read WIPs, I suppose. If it's not your cup oftea, don't
> drink it. Limit your reading to completed stories and vote on those!Bingo!
Yet there was a vote to exclude incomplete stories not updated in a
year and the vote passed. There are two remedies for this for anyone
upset by that rule: 1) bring it up again next year and see if you can
get it repealed--by a vote again and 2) encourage the writer of said
story to write more! There's nothing keeping anyone here from
writing feedback directly to an author all year long. Just because
stories that haven't been updated in a year aren't eligible doesn't
mean you can't read them and encourage the writer if you think they
are good. Who knows? Maybe the writer will decide to finish them.
--Ainaechoiriel
Msg# 3198
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by Naresha December 28, 2004 - 11:09:36 Topic ID# 3192*Resha begs forgiveness* Sorry Ainaechoiriel! Didn't mean to start all this!
:-P *thinks maybe she'll keep ideas on similar topics to herself in future!*
ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
There seems to be a misconception that there will be an Unfinished subcategory this year.
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~
AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/
My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha
---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
:-P *thinks maybe she'll keep ideas on similar topics to herself in future!*
ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
There seems to be a misconception that there will be an Unfinished subcategory this year.
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~
AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
ICQ: 142117881 Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/
My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha
---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Msg# 3201
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by ainaechoiriel December 28, 2004 - 16:50:10 Topic ID# 3192--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Naresha
<north_shore_fruitcake@y...> wrote:
Don't think that! That's what Post Mortem is for. For new ideas.
Just because they won't all go into affect doesn't mean they
shouldn't be brought up. And "unfinished" may be brought up again in
the future, but with a different title. Give it some thought and
bring it up again if you really want it.
Go and look at the PM database and see how many ideas were taken into
affect. There are actually quite a few changes for next year.
--Ainaechoiriel
<north_shore_fruitcake@y...> wrote:
> *Resha begs forgiveness* Sorry Ainaechoiriel! Didn't mean tostart all this!
> :-P *thinks maybe she'll keep ideas on similar topics to herselfin future!*
Don't think that! That's what Post Mortem is for. For new ideas.
Just because they won't all go into affect doesn't mean they
shouldn't be brought up. And "unfinished" may be brought up again in
the future, but with a different title. Give it some thought and
bring it up again if you really want it.
Go and look at the PM database and see how many ideas were taken into
affect. There are actually quite a few changes for next year.
--Ainaechoiriel
Msg# 3212
Re: On WiPs and Unfinished stories Posted by Naresha December 29, 2004 - 8:11:13 Topic ID# 3192> *Resha begs forgiveness* Sorry Ainaechoiriel! Didn't mean tostart all this!
> :-P *thinks maybe she'll keep ideas on similar topics to herselfin future!*
Don't think that! That's what Post Mortem is for. For new ideas. Just because they won't all go into affect doesn't mean they shouldn't be brought up. And "unfinished" may be brought up again in
the future, but with a different title. Give it some thought and bring it up again if you really want it.
I know, I know! That wasn't what I really meant - well it sort of was! :-P - I really meant I was sorry for creating such a problem for you in having to explain again and again that we we're actually having the "unfinished" category this year!
~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~
AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com
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