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I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For one thing
you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts. Defining the
lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a few sites
post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to count the
number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.

I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of the stories
linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I can make the
decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just don't think it's
a necessary extra administrative step.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but how
> do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and what kind
> of word count do they have?
>
> Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I should
> try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised and said I'd
> try for midnight.)
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length
>
>
>
> I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing against
> each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being able to read
> more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the advantage of being
> able to have much more complicated and fully developed plot and
> characterization. In general, I think it would be more fair to compare
> works of similar lenght to each other, whether as main categories or
> subcategories.
>
> I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
> Both sets of awards have been running for many years very successfully. The
> word lengths of the established categories reflect the commonly used
> definitions in the publishing world. Here it is quoted from the Nebula
> site:
>
> Awards will be made in the following categories:
>
> 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a novella-length
> work published individually, rather than as part of a collection or an
> anthology, shall appear in the novel category.
>
>
> These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
> fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
> problem.
>
> Elana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

Larian wrote:

> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length.
> For one thing
> you have to define the length, then you have to get word
> counts. Defining the
> lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know
> only a few sites
> post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd
> want to count the
> number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.

I would do it but I see that others would not like to do it.

For me it is more problematic to write
why a story needs parental guidance
than to copy the story into word and count it ;-)
Though to copy 50 chapters is tedious work, I agree.

> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this.
> Most of the stories
> linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there
> were. I can make the
> decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just
> don't think it's
> a necessary extra administrative step.

I agree that chapters might be an appropriate choice.

I do not agree,
that the distinction concerning length is not needed
because for me quite different writing skills
are needed for the various lengths.

In my very personal opinion novel length stories
are much harder to write convincingly and enjoyable
than short stories.

Thus, agreeing with Ainaechoiriel
that those are the most memorable stories,
for me well written novel-length stories
are the crowning achievement in fanfiction.
I sit in awe before such stories
which for me show the possibility
that the author could make the transition
to write publishable original stories.

> --- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas
> use them, but how
> > do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or
> short, and what kind
> > of word count do they have?

See below: those stories that for me are long stories
are novels according to Nebula rules.

> >
> > From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]

> > I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and
> Nebula Awards.
> > Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
> successfully. The
> > word lengths of the established categories reflect the commonly used
> > definitions in the publishing world. Here it is quoted
> from the Nebula
> > site:
> >
> > Awards will be made in the following categories:
> >
> > 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> > 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> > 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> > 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request,
> a novella-length
> > work published individually, rather than as part of a
> collection or an
> > anthology, shall appear in the novel category.

My example stories:

"Father and sons" by Dwim (for me a long story) has
64757 words in 16 chapters (about 4050 words per chapter)
so that already agrees with a Nebula-novel.
In my three columns, Arial 8 formatting
it has 42 Letter-format pages.

"Messages" a WIP with the length of a small book has
127081 words in 21 chapters (about 6050 words per chapter)
In my three columns, Arial 8 formatting
it has 88 Letter-format pages.

So if we go by chapters I would propose to say:
more than 10 chapters define a novel.

The problem is that there exist fics with just a page per chapter
while other stories have many pages per chapter.

Thus I personally would prefer that the nominator should
copy the story into word and count the words ;-)

Best wishes Elanor

I agree with Larian here. I like long stories. I like short stories. I
can make my own decisions once I see them on whether I want to read them.

That said, I did go down through the stories that caught my interest by
their summaries. I looked them up and then marked down how many chapters
there were. But that was only when I was crunched for time. I still took
time to read some very long ones even then.

But, bottom-line, we want to make this easier, not harder. We can't make it
harder on the nominator to look up the word count. Nor can we expect staff
to do this (or I'll find out that a lot of volunteers are suddenly
sufficiently reluctant to volunteer).

One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could we
ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking not
word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story. For
example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the Hugos say.
(Ff.net says it's 54000 words).


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:32 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed


I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For one thing
you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts. Defining
the lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a few
sites post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to
count the number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.

I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of the
stories linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I
can make the decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just
don't think it's a necessary extra administrative step.


--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but
> how do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and
> what kind of word count do they have?
>
> Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I
> should try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised
> and said I'd try for midnight.)
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length
>
>
>
> I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing
> against each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being
> able to read more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the
> advantage of being able to have much more complicated and fully
> developed plot and characterization. In general, I think it would be
> more fair to compare works of similar lenght to each other, whether as
> main categories or subcategories.
>
> I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
> Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
> successfully. The word lengths of the established categories reflect
> the commonly used definitions in the publishing world. Here it is
> quoted from the Nebula
> site:
>
> Awards will be made in the following categories:
>
> 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a
> novella-length work published individually, rather than as part of a
> collection or an anthology, shall appear in the novel category.
>
>
> These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
> fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
> problem.
>
> Elana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
archive@ofelvesandmen.com


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--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> But, bottom-line, we want to make this easier, not harder. We can't make it
> harder on the nominator to look up the word count.

Exactly.

>
> One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could we
> ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking not
> word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story. For
> example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the Hugos say.
> (Ff.net says it's 54000 words).

I think if you're going to have authors to provide anything, word count would
be best. (If they have it) That way, then we apply the type based on the
definition we're using. (Like you said Ainae, if we define novella one way, and
the author another, there's no reason for us to waste time defining the
lengths, as the authors will have their own ideas anyway).

>
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:32 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
> needed
>
>
> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For one thing
> you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts. Defining
> the lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a few
> sites post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to
> count the number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.
>
> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of the
> stories linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I
> can make the decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just
> don't think it's a necessary extra administrative step.
>
>
> --- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > What about others out there? Yes, the Hugos and Nebulas use them, but
> > how do they strike you? Think about your stories. Long or short, and
> > what kind of word count do they have?
> >
> > Time for me to get ready for bed. (The sleep doctor suggested that I
> > should try getting into bed by 10:30. I laughed at him. I compromised
> > and said I'd try for midnight.)
> >
> > --Ainaechoiriel
> > MEFA Admin and Founder
> >
> > "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond
> > said, "for it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
> >
> > http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
> > Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: angelabrooks@yahoo.com [mailto:angelabrooks@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:37 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length
> >
> >
> >
> > I like the idea of separating stories by length. When competing
> > against each other, shorter stories have the advantage of voters being
> > able to read more of them more quickly. But longer stories have the
> > advantage of being able to have much more complicated and fully
> > developed plot and characterization. In general, I think it would be
> > more fair to compare works of similar lenght to each other, whether as
> > main categories or subcategories.
> >
> > I suggest we use the definitions used by the Hugo and Nebula Awards.
> > Both sets of awards have been running for many years very
> > successfully. The word lengths of the established categories reflect
> > the commonly used definitions in the publishing world. Here it is
> > quoted from the Nebula
> > site:
> >
> > Awards will be made in the following categories:
> >
> > 1. Short Story: less than 7,500 words.
> > 2. Novelette: at least 7,500 words but less than 17,500 words.
> > 3. Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.
> > 4. Novel: 40,000 words or more. At the author's request, a
> > novella-length work published individually, rather than as part of a
> > collection or an anthology, shall appear in the novel category.
> >
> >
> > These numbers have the advantage of a long history in the science
> > fiction/fantasy genre, so being accused of arbitrariness will not be a
> > problem.
> >
> > Elana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~-->
> > $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/wx3olB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Larian
> larian_elensar@yahoo.com
> Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
> Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com Archive addy
> archive@ofelvesandmen.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
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>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 4:49 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I would support it

>I agree that chapters might be an appropriate choice.

>I do not agree,

that the distinction concerning length is not needed because for me quite
different writing skills are needed for the various lengths.

>In my very personal opinion novel length stories are much harder to write

convincingly and enjoyable than short stories.

:-) I disagree. I'm a writer of both and they each have their own
advantages and disadvantages.

Why is a short story easier than a novel? Because it's shorter. Filling 10
pages is a lot easier than filling 200.

Why is a novel easier than a short story? Because it's longer and reflects
life better. Not all our dramas in life can be solved in 10 pages. Finding
a novel-length story may actually be easier than finding a short one.

Why is it harder to write a novel? Because it takes longer. It could take
a year or more to write a novel. And filling it can be hard. Sure the
exciting scenes are there but they have to be linked together.

Why is it harder to write a short story? It's harder to find a story that is
so short. A novel can take place in a week, month, year... A short story
happens in a day, a few hours. It has to be a whole story still, but one in
a short period of time.

>Thus, agreeing with Ainaechoiriel

that those are the most memorable stories, for me well written novel-length
stories are the crowning achievement in fanfiction.
I sit in awe before such stories
which for me show the possibility
that the author could make the transition to write publishable original
stories.

Why judge long stories and short stories together then? Because they are
both stories with generally the same format. They have beginnings, middles,
and ends. Charactors, scenes, plots. In the reading, they mainly vary only
in size.

Why judge drabbles differently? Because they don't necessarily have the
same format as long and short stories. They are a moment, a snap shot.
They don't need an end or even a middle. Not enough so much a plot as just
a thought.

Vignettes are closer to long and short stories, but they too are different.
One scene. The plot is generally a light-weight one. Small. Not like a
villain trying to take over the world. Maybe (to use one of my examples)
just one character telling another about a mutual friend's death. There is
a beginning and and end, and a middle--though a very short one.

Whoa, I just had a thought. Short stories don't have chapters! In my mind,
that is one thing that separates a short story from a novella, regardless of
number of words. No chapters.

Anyway, those are my thoughts

>The problem is that there exist fics with just a page per chapter while

other stories have many pages per chapter.

Yep,t hat is a big problem. For me, my chapters used to average about 40
pages (12pt. Times New Roman, double-spaced). Sometimes they were as small
as 20. I think in Pain of Memory they were shorter, and that'swhy I didn't
call them Chapters, but Parts. But yes, I've seen some very short chapters
out there. Chapters will tell me their own lengths. And sometimes they are
and should be small. But not generally should they be only a page.

>Thus I personally would prefer that the nominator should copy the story

into word and count the words ;-)

But it's too much work. I think that IF we decide to do this, we have the
author do it.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
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-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:02 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed

> One thought, IF we did categorize by length and could define it, could
> we ask the author to provide that information? If so, I'm thinking
> not word-count, but chapter count or just they consider their story.
> For example, I'd call my Pain of Memory a novella, no matter what the

Hugos say.

> (Ff.net says it's 54000 words).

>I think if you're going to have authors to provide anything, word count

would be best. (If they have it) That way, then we apply the type based on
the definition we're using. (Like you said Ainae, if we define novella one
way, and the author another, there's no reason for us to waste time defining
the lengths, as the authors will have their own ideas anyway).

That's the thing. I don't generally know the word count for my stories. I
know for Oswiecim because I had originally thought to try to submit it for
publication. But it was about 100,000 words more than they were willing to
chance on an unpublished author. Any of my others, and I have to look up
what it says on ff.net. But then ff.net says Oswiecim is 349,000 words,
when I only counted 170,000. And since my stories are filed in separate
chapters, it's not an easy thing to do a word count on the whole story. I'd
have to either do a word count on the individual chapters and then add them
together or copy and paste them all together and do a word count.

If I was to be the author that had to decide which category to put my story
in and note it's length, I'd rather say Oswiecim should be put in Drama or
General and it's a novel. For Pain of Memory, I'd say Drama or General and
it's a novella.

Word count would call them both novels (or gigantic epic monster-novel!, in
regard to Oswiecim).

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@y...>
wrote:

> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For

one thing

> you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts.

Defining the

> lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a

few sites

> post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to

count the

> number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.
>
> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of

the stories

> linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I

can make the

> decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just don't

think it's

> a necessary extra administrative step.
>

I respectfully disagree. I understand the administrative hassles, and
maybe since I wasn't able to help as much as I would have liked, this
will sound a bit rich coming from me. But there really is a different
from a vignette and a novel. I'm not talking about from a reader's
perspective, but for the fairness of the awards... well, there's a
difference in the kind of votes a vignette and a novel attract. Novels
have the time to build up a readership. So more people probably will
have read them before they come to the awards. And there's more to
comment on, so it's easier to write more. Vignettes, on the other
hand, are shorter, so it's easier for people to read them just for the
awards.

I don't think it should fall to categorizers to do word counts,
though. Like I suggested in my earlier post, we should come up with
*suggested* word counts and let the authors decide.

By the way, I only feel strongly that novels and vignettes should be
their own sub-category. If it makes things easier I think the others
can run together (no need to draw the difference between one-shot and
novella).

Marta

I don't think anyone was suggesting novels and vignettes run together. More
short stories and long storeis. Vignettes are a speciallized format, like
drabble. One scene. That's it. A scene isn't always a story (beginning
middle and end). I think of vignettes as a subcategory.

For what it's worth though, I think if I've been following a story for a
long time, it's actually harder for me to write a lot about it. Blame it on
my memory problems, but the story may become so familiar to me that I
actually forget what is special. A strange example to illustrate: When I
first moved to the Czech Republic, eveyrthing was so different and new. I
wrote (in very small handwriting) 12-page letters, front and back. Six
months later, everything is still as different from the US as it was on Day
1, but it's become familiar to me. I struggle to write 2-page letters.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 2:23 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@y...>
wrote:

> I really don't think we need to categorize stories by length. For

one thing

> you have to define the length, then you have to get word counts.

Defining the

> lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far as I know only a

few sites

> post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not sure I'd want to

count the

> number of words in some of the stories, so I'd not nominate them.
>
> I think you have to trust the readers' judgment on this. Most of

the stories

> linked to a front page that showed how many chapters there were. I

can make the

> decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or not. I just don't

think it's

> a necessary extra administrative step.
>

I respectfully disagree. I understand the administrative hassles, and maybe
since I wasn't able to help as much as I would have liked, this will sound a
bit rich coming from me. But there really is a different from a vignette and
a novel. I'm not talking about from a reader's perspective, but for the
fairness of the awards... well, there's a difference in the kind of votes a
vignette and a novel attract. Novels have the time to build up a readership.
So more people probably will have read them before they come to the awards.
And there's more to comment on, so it's easier to write more. Vignettes, on
the other hand, are shorter, so it's easier for people to read them just for
the awards.

I don't think it should fall to categorizers to do word counts, though. Like
I suggested in my earlier post, we should come up with
*suggested* word counts and let the authors decide.

By the way, I only feel strongly that novels and vignettes should be their
own sub-category. If it makes things easier I think the others can run
together (no need to draw the difference between one-shot and novella).

Marta






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--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

> I don't think anyone was suggesting novels and vignettes run

together. More

> short stories and long storeis. Vignettes are a speciallized

format, like

> drabble. One scene. That's it. A scene isn't always a story

(beginning

> middle and end). I think of vignettes as a subcategory.
>

I can see what you're getting back, but I still think that novels are
often different. There's a beginning, middle, and end, yes. But if
they're being published as a serial, often each chapter will have that
structure, and there will be several rises and falls over the course
of the story. On top of the overall story arc. The difference in
structure is subtle, but IMHO it's there. More to the point, novels
published as serials have the time to acquire a readership.

> For what it's worth though, I think if I've been following a story

for a

> long time, it's actually harder for me to write a lot about it.

Blame it on

> my memory problems, but the story may become so familiar to me that

I

> actually forget what is special. A strange example to illustrate:

When I

> first moved to the Czech Republic, eveyrthing was so different and

new. I

> wrote (in very small handwriting) 12-page letters, front and back.

Six

> months later, everything is still as different from the US as it was

on Day

> 1, but it's become familiar to me. I struggle to write 2-page

letters.

>

That's true. But I remember reading several reviews where people did
mini-reviews of each chapter, or the reviewer seemed to implicitly
review as s/he went along - s/he would pose a question, "I wonder how
this will work out", then answer the question a few lines later; this
implies to me that s/he had not read the whole work when s/he wrote
the review. I could be wrong, of course, and I'm not criticizing this
style - just pointing out that some people did review as they went
along, rather than just comment on the story as a whole.

(FWIW, I experienced a similar thing when I was studying abroad in
Staffordshire, England. At first my emails were long and involved
because I was so struck by the cultural differences. My emails got
briefer as the semester went on, because the English lifestyle was
becoming the norm.)

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Catagorizing stories by length - I don't think it's
needed



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>I can see what you're getting back, but I still think that novels are often

different. There's a beginning, middle, and end, yes. But if they're being
published as a serial, often each chapter will have that structure, and
there will be several rises and falls over the course of the story. On top
of the overall story arc. The difference in structure is subtle, but IMHO
it's there. More to the point, novels published as serials have the time to
acquire a readership.

Someone else talked about WIPs comparing them to serials and I wanted to
comment on that and forgot. Serials usually have parts that are somewhat of
a story on their own. Like my three Trek stories: Hope, Forgiveness, and
Peace. All part of a trilogy. All stories that have beginnings, middles, and
ends of their own, but definitely tied together.

Wips are just unfinished.

As for novels and short stories, I think they cancel each other out. A
novel may gain longer comments because there's more to write about, but
short stories will likely have more comments because they are easier and
more likely to be read.

> That's true. But I remember reading several reviews where people did

mini-reviews of each chapter, or the reviewer seemed to implicitly review as
s/he went along - s/he would pose a question, "I wonder how this will work
out", then answer the question a few lines later; this implies to me that
s/he had not read the whole work when s/he wrote the review. I could be
wrong, of course, and I'm not criticizing this style - just pointing out
that some people did review as they went along, rather than just comment on
the story as a whole.

Personally, I hate it and thank you for bringing that up. That's going to
be a dictatorial decision for the 2005 MEFAs. Save that stuff for ff.net.
Stories here should be commented as real reviews. Done at the end of the
story.

And that brings me back to the read two chapter ting on Wips. Someone asked
if it would be allowed to comment on just the first two chapters of a long
completed story. I say no. For the reasons I've already given about WIPs.
Wips are not full stories. They have a disadvantage at that. They are a B
at the highest. When you comment on a WIP, by definition you are commenting
not only on the work already done but the potential for how it will turn
out. A completed story is an A at the highest. You don't comment on the
potential. It's already there.

If this becomes too contentious, maybe we should consider not allowing WIPs.
Should I put it to a poll?

>(FWIW, I experienced a similar thing when I was studying abroad in

Staffordshire, England. At first my emails were long and involved because I
was so struck by the cultural differences. My emails got briefer as the
semester went on, because the English lifestyle was becoming the norm.)

Exactly! Interesting how that happens, isn't it?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

I must agree with Larian here. We tried doing
word length in the Masque awards and it was a
pain in the backside!!! we had a slightly
different set up - but even just having to go
through say just 10 stories (and there were a
LOT more than that!)and run a word count on them
all (we had them saved as word docs) but having
to do it on them was just time consuming and
annoying!

Resha.

--- Larian Elensar <larian_elensar@yahoo.com>
wrote:

---------------------------------
I really don't think we need to categorize
stories by length. For one thing
you have to define the length, then you have to
get word counts. Defining the
lengths, as we've seen, can be a pain. And as far
as I know only a few sites
post word counts. If I was a nominator, I'm not
sure I'd want to count the
number of words in some of the stories, so I'd
not nominate them.

I think you have to trust the readers' judgment
on this. Most of the stories
linked to a front page that showed how many
chapters there were. I can make the
decision if I want to read a 55 chapter story or
not. I just don't think it's
a necessary extra administrative step.



=====
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