Yahoo Forum Archive

I didn't mean to kill discussion though it appears that I did. I really
didn't mean to do that. I will never please everyone with these awards. But
if I'd asked for volunteers to set up a committee to discuss how to do them
1) It would have taken months to set up and 2) it would have changed from my
dream again. That's what happened with the Mithrils. I put forth the idea
of comment-based and it seemed to scare people.

Now, I know we're not arguing about the comment-based, and I'm glad. It
seems to have won people over. The recategorization thing is getting to me
though. Which you saw in my last couple of posts. Sometimes its hard for
me to articulate what I really think. Sometims it's hard for me to
straighten out what I really think. I hope I did better in the latter post
on the subject. While the comments are the heart, the award titles are the
gimick. And though a gimick may not be important in the big scheme of
things, it is often what sets something apart. I don't want to lose that
gimmick. I'd rather have new categories and have to come up with award
titles for them. Without going overboard, of course. Thus the lower and
upper bounds.

Anyway, on to other things. These are issues in the database or that I can
remember that aren't in the database. These have not been decided. These
are not yet into polls. These are open for discussion.

!) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?
It has been suggested by some to put Authors as a main category with Poetry,
Drabble, and Vignette, etc., underneath. came up with a why not just today:
That whole hting about only a few people getting all the awards. Think
about it. I f you're reading a story and you like it and you rmember to
write up a comment on it while you still remember it, but you don't write up
a comment about the author because you may read more stories by that same
author. Voting Season comes around and you post your story comments, then
you get to your author comments and realize that you can't remember what to
say about that author. You write comments on your favorite authors that you
do remember. Easier to write your comment when you read the story by the
author, just like when you write the story comment. It's the so-called
popular or prolific or big name authors who will win. Not much chance for
the new guy with only one short story.

Also if we don't break up Author also by genre, time, or race/place, we end
up with only three awards for all Author General authors. Ouch.

2) Honorable Mention
The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What qualifies? So
far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X points below
3rd place.

So what would X be? 5, 10, 15? Any other options, or should I put those
three numbers in a poll?

3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs. one-off
stories)
I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it? Word-count may
not be available at every archive. Neither is chapter at easy glance
always. I used to post all my stories on one page at ff.net (when ff.net
started, there wasn't a chaptering feature). Of course that was before I
write as Ainaechoiriel, and I've not written anything longer than a chapter
as Ainaechoiriel, but the possibility still exists.

Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel? If so, how
do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene generally. But what
about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a novella
compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite line? No more
than X characters?

5) Changing/Adding/Removing categories.
It's own can of worms.

6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
Good idea, but logistically problematic. We don't archive stories, so how
would we police that? The only thing I can think of is that we make a
suggestion to voters that they don't have to read more than the first two
chapters or some such.

Well, I couldn't remember any others that weren't in the database. Thus,
it's important to put them in the database.


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*bouncing along to send in her own two cents*

Hey all! I think I may have a few coherent thoughts, so I'm wandering
in to share them. And I'm working off the recaps, so I hope you can
still follow me.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>> !) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

I agree with Ainae about the style contrasts and breaking up the
authors by categories. I can think of two or three exceptional
authors who won in their categories but only had a single short story
in all the awards. I don't think they would have won if the author
category included ALL novels or ALL drabbles. So I like the fact that
the authors were separated into categories.

On the other hand, there were not a lot of author votes as a general
rule. That's not a very democratic way to hand out author awards. So
in that light, something does need to change. Maybe we just need to
encourage author votes. Maybe even make it a requirement that on the
submitted ballots, people include at least one author vote, even if
they don't want to comment on the rest. I hesitate to do that and I
can't think of a good way to enforce it, but maybe someone else can
make something of it.

>> 2) Honorable Mention
>> The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What

qualifies? So

>> far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X

points below

>> 3rd place.

I'd put the numbers in a poll. My own vote would be for 5 points as
the honorable mention cutoff, but that's me. Others might feel
differently.

>> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.

one-off

>> stories)
>> I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?

I'm a little curious as to WHY we would do it, actually. The only
thing I can think of is to save time for those who are really busy
and can't read the longer stories. Which I understand completely, but
that raises another issue: Would this bias the awards against the
long stories? But I'll get to that later, actually. It comes in on
Number 5.

>> Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel?

If so, how

>> do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene

generally. But what

>> about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a

novella

>> compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

We'd probably have to do it with either a chapter or a word count.
Word count would be more impartial as authors differ wildly as far as
length of chapters is concerned. Chapter count might be easier,
though, because most archives can tell you how many chapters even if
they don't give you a word count.

But as for that vignette thing... Yes, they're typically defined as a
single scene, but I can think of a story or two that is one long
scene over the course of several chapters. Does that still count as a
vignette? If we label things, we'd probably have to do it as word or
chapter count across the board.

(I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to
highlight a few issues that might come up if we start separating
things out like this.)

>> 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
>> The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite line?

No more

>> than X characters?

I'd limit it to a favorite line per vote (line meaning sentence or
equivelent). I think limiting it to a certain number of characters
would feel arbitrary. But if we go with character count, I'd limit it
to no more than 75 characters. Maybe even less.

>> 5) Changing/Adding/Removing categories.
>> It's own can of worms.

And it's a big can, too. ;) But I think we need to look at this for a
couple reasons.

1) Gondor, Rohan, and Numenor - Gondor had far more stories in it
than either Rohan or Numenor did, yet Gondor was a subcategory and
Rohan and Numenor were both full categories. That seems a little
strange to me. I would have voted for putting them all under Men as
subcategories.

2) Long stories and short stories - This gets problematic as I
mentioned before, but I noticed in my ballot counting that longer
stories received far fewer votes than shorter stories. The reason is
simple: people have time to read and comment on short stories. Long
stories don't always get read because of the simple fact that they're
long. The result of this is that long stories are at a disadvantage
when they're competing against short stories. I would definitely be
in favor of splitting up the novels and the vignettes provided we can
agree on a way to do it. It's finding that way that's the problem.

3) Multiple categories apply - There were a few stories that could
have fit into upwards of seven different categories, and that makes
them hard to place. I like the idea of authors categorizing their own
stories. After all, authors know the work better than anyone else. I
also liked the idea that either Elana or Marta came up with. (Can't
remember who it was now.) But the idea involved having a system
where stories are first categorized by race, then time, then book,
then feel, etc. I like the separate categories of Horror, Drama,
etc., but a lot of those stories would have done well competing in
categories like Rohan or Elves. And I can think of a few stories in
Men that would have done well in Drama or Mystery.

Maybe we should confine categories to races (elves and men and
hobbits) and time periods (or books) for the that cover several
races. Then within these categories, there can be subcategories for
horror, mystery, drama, Gondor, Rohan, etc.

I also like the idea of having a separate AU category. Maybe we could
combine it with the Crossover? Or have crossover as a subcategory
within AU?

>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this and
then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

Thundera

Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the
vote (provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some
reasons why, so I won't reiterate.

> >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
> logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this

and

> then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the
vote (provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some
reasons why, so I won't reiterate.

> >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but
> logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this

and

> then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura [mailto:swordofomens@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:32 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap

>*bouncing along to send in her own two cents*

Inflations hit. We'll need three more cents from you. ;-)

>Hey all! I think I may have a few coherent thoughts, so I'm wandering in to

share them. And I'm working off the recaps, so I hope you can still follow
me.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>> !) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?

>I agree with Ainae about the style contrasts and breaking up the

authors by categories. I can think of two or three exceptional
authors who won in their categories but only had a single short story
in all the awards. I don't think they would have won if the author
category included ALL novels or ALL drabbles. So I like the fact that
the authors were separated into categories.

Right.

>On the other hand, there were not a lot of author votes as a general

rule.

Right again.

>That's not a very democratic way to hand out author awards. So

in that light, something does need to change.

Not ideal, but it is democratic. Just like when we elect a president when
only 27% of the elligible population votes.

> Maybe we just need to

encourage author votes. Maybe even make it a requirement that on the
submitted ballots, people include at least one author vote, even if
they don't want to comment on the rest. I hesitate to do that and I
can't think of a good way to enforce it, but maybe someone else can
make something of it.

That's one option. How to enforce it, however.... I don't know either.

>> 2) Honorable Mention

>I'd put the numbers in a poll. My own vote would be for 5 points as

the honorable mention cutoff, but that's me. Others might feel
differently.

I think it should be close and since point count isn't character count, a
small number is best. So last chance for discussion. I feel like calling
this one at 5. Speak now or forever hold your piece on this topic.

>>> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.

one-off

>> stories)
>> I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?

>I'm a little curious as to WHY we would do it, actually. The only

thing I can think of is to save time for those who are really busy
and can't read the longer stories. Which I understand completely, but
that raises another issue: Would this bias the awards against the
long stories? But I'll get to that later, actually. It comes in on
Number 5.

Well, I do like knowing what I'm biting into when I start reading a story.
But I also don't want to bias readers against long stories. More on this
later.

>> Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel?

If so, how

>> do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene

generally. But what

>> about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34 pages. What's a

novella

>> compared to a novel? Where do we draw the line?

>We'd probably have to do it with either a chapter or a word count.

Word count would be more impartial as authors differ wildly as far as
length of chapters is concerned. Chapter count might be easier,
though, because most archives can tell you how many chapters even if
they don't give you a word count.

Either way though, it puts more burden on the nominator if the archive
doesn't show either word count or chapter count. We could possibly use
something more vague: really short, short, fairly long, long, very long.

>But as for that vignette thing... Yes, they're typically defined as a

single scene, but I can think of a story or two that is one long
scene over the course of several chapters. Does that still count as a
vignette? If we label things, we'd probably have to do it as word or
chapter count across the board.

Well, I'd say one scene in one chapter if that's the case. A multiple
chapter one-scene story isn't a vignette as far as I know.

>(I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to

highlight a few issues that might come up if we start separating
things out like this.)

No problem. Understood.

>> 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes
>> The decision is yes, but to what do we limit it? Favorite line?

No more

>> than X characters?

>I'd limit it to a favorite line per vote (line meaning sentence or

equivelent). I think limiting it to a certain number of characters
would feel arbitrary. But if we go with character count, I'd limit it
to no more than 75 characters. Maybe even less.

I think my problem is that I can't visualize 75 characters or 200.

>> 5) Changing/Adding/Removing categories.
>> It's own can of worms.

>And it's a big can, too. ;) But I think we need to look at this for a

couple reasons.

>1) Gondor, Rohan, and Numenor - Gondor had far more stories in it

than either Rohan or Numenor did, yet Gondor was a subcategory and
Rohan and Numenor were both full categories. That seems a little
strange to me. I would have voted for putting them all under Men as
subcategories.

I say if they're big enough (we need to decide those limits) they become
their own main categories, not under Men. This year, no main categories
were added as soon as Nomination Season started. They were set. I'm open
to next year allowing for new main categories provided they fit the upper
bound. Gondor being a good example. Under this idea, Gondor would have
been created as a new main category. Rohan and Numenor might not have made
it.

>2) Long stories and short stories - This gets problematic as I

mentioned before, but I noticed in my ballot counting that longer
stories received far fewer votes than shorter stories. The reason is
simple: people have time to read and comment on short stories. Long
stories don't always get read because of the simple fact that they're
long. The result of this is that long stories are at a disadvantage
when they're competing against short stories. I would definitely be
in favor of splitting up the novels and the vignettes provided we can
agree on a way to do it. It's finding that way that's the problem.

Someone else pointed out the advantage long stories have, but I'll put it in
my own words: they get remembered. I get and did get way more comments on
Oswiecim (a nearly 600-page story) than I did on any of my short stories.
Oswiecim is still remembered while First Consideration may not be. Long
stories are more likely to get long votes, I think. Short stories are more
likely to be read in a time crunch. They might get more votes, but longer
stories may get longer ones. It sort of evens out.

>3) Multiple categories apply - There were a few stories that could

have fit into upwards of seven different categories, and that makes
them hard to place. I like the idea of authors categorizing their own
stories. After all, authors know the work better than anyone else. I
also liked the idea that either Elana or Marta came up with. (Can't
remember who it was now.) But the idea involved having a system
where stories are first categorized by race, then time, then book,
then feel, etc. I like the separate categories of Horror, Drama,
etc., but a lot of those stories would have done well competing in
categories like Rohan or Elves. And I can think of a few stories in
Men that would have done well in Drama or Mystery.

Again, I don't want to limit the categories. Yes, those stories could have
done well in Men, but they weren't put there. Next year it will be the
author to choose. I have four stories in the Awards. These are the possible
categories (from the 2004 awards) that those stories might have worked in:

1) Immortal: LoTR/Cross-Cultural, Drama, Elves
2) Myth and Memory: Rohan, Men, Elves, Drama, Adventure, LOTR
3) Namesake: LOTR, Men, Drama, Rohan
4) The Lure of the Darkness: Horror, Elves, Silm (for time)

Which would I choose them to go in, given the choice?

1) Immortal: Drama
2) Myth and Memory: Rohan
3) Namesake: Rohan
4) The Lure of the Darkness: Horror

That happens to be the categories they were in, but it might have been
different for other authors.

>Maybe we should confine categories to races (elves and men and

hobbits) and time periods (or books) for the that cover several
races. Then within these categories, there can be subcategories for
horror, mystery, drama, Gondor, Rohan, etc.

Nope, see above.

>I also like the idea of having a separate AU category. Maybe we could

combine it with the Crossover? Or have crossover as a subcategory
within AU?

It's tricky. Most fanfic stories can fall into the AU category. Even
gap-fillers depending on how you look at them. Some are obvious: Gollum
dies before leaving Mirkwood, Boromir lives. But others aren't. Myth and
Memory because it is movie-verse. Namesake because it deals with original
characters. Immortal because we don't know that Legolas met with Merry and
Pippin before they died. The Lure of the Darkness because we don't know for
sure if a spider would act that way or hey, I went along with the notion
that Legolas' mother is dead.

>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

>I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but

logistically problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this and
then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

That's the best I've come up with so far.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

See my recent post on it. I don't think we could or even would want to
force readers to only read the first chapter or two. But it might encourage
them to read if we said they didn't have to read more than the first chapter
or two.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Laura [mailto:swordofomens@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:37 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap



Having just read Elanor's post, I changed my mind on issue Number 6.
I agree with her. I think the entire WIP should be used to cast the vote
(provided the voter is willing to read the WIP). She gives some reasons why,
so I won't reiterate.

> >> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> I agree again with Ainae about this being a good idea but logistically
> problematic. Maybe there could be a post about this

and

> then voters could go to the individual stories with this in mind?

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Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Ainae,

(Quotes are from Ainae except where indicated.)

> >!) Author Comments: Keep? Change? Lose?
>

I like them. And for those of us who are more interested in the
feedback than whether we win an award, any feedback is an added bonus.
(I consider myself in the latter category; I was tickled pink at how
many people read and enjoyed my stuff, people who I hadn't known were
reading prior to these awards). I do think they need to change,
though.

Your suggestions of allowing people to submit the same comment for the
same author in different categories was a good one. I also think the
suggestion of an overall authors category, with some subcategories,
was also a good one. I can understand your reason for not wanting to
award just three awards for all the authors. And I can understand you
not seeing how Author/X is not different from X/Author (where X is any
category such as Elves, The Hobbit, Mystery, etc.) I think where the
confusion was coming in was, you were thinking there would be one
subcategory of Authors for every other category in the awards. I don't
think this necessarily has to be the case. I'm not sure which
categories do and don't need subcategories and I'm sure we would need
to flesh this out further if we go this route. But, for example,
Silmarillion maybe wouldn't need an authors subcategory - the authors
could compete under Elves and Men.

You could also arguably say that each author can only compete in one
subcategory of Authors. So if I have stories nominated in Drama, The
Hobbit, Men, Hobbits, and Romance, I would choose one. But this runs
into the problem of different categories requiring different skills.

However, I don't think you like the one Authors category idea. That's
fine. I'm just trying to clarify what I thought was a
misunderstanding.

> > 2) Honorable Mention
> > The decision is Yes. But there is still a question: What

qualifies?

> > So far, the discussion has gone toward stories/authors receiving X
> > points below 3rd place.
> >
> > So what would X be? 5, 10, 15? Any other options, or should I

put

> > those three numbers in a poll?
>

Definitely less than five. My original idea was within 10% of the
first place vote count (rounded to the nearest vote). So if, say,
first prize was 36 votes honourable mentions go to everyone within
four votes of the third prize award (36 * 0.1 = 3.6 ≈ 4). But I am a
math major. I just finished my last semester and am two incompletes
away from my BS in applied math. Maybe the admins don't want something
that hard to compute (though the math seems second nature to me, it
may not to whoever is counting the votes).

The exact number, though, is less important to me than that honourable
mentions are distributed. I will go with whatever Ainae and/or the
rest of the group decides.

> > 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.
> > one-off
> > stories)
> > I'm okay with indicating the size, but how should we do it?
> > Word-count may
> > not be available at every archive.
>

It's not. I think the Mithrils ran into a similar problem. Since the
set-up is different, I think they were able to solve this issue by
having screeners do the word-count (though I could be mistaken); that
of course wouldn't work for me.

I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for
what we consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to
indicate where they want their story to run, just like they'll choose
their category.

<snip>

> > Do we use monakers such as vignette, short-story, novella, novel?

If

> > so, how do we define each? Vignette is easy enough. One scene
> > generally. But what about short story? It could be 4 pages or 34
> > pages. What's a novella compared to a novel? Where do we draw

the

> > line?
>

Here's my best stabs at word counts.

* Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
consisting of multiple scenes)
* Novella: 25,000 - 50,000 words
* Novel: 50,000+ words

Again, I think it should be the author's call, and these categories
should be flexible. If I have a piece that's 20,000 words but I think
it reads more like a novella than a short story, I should be able to
put it there.

> > 4) Limiting the length of quotes used in votes The decision is

yes,

> > but to what do we limit it? Favorite line? No more than X
> > characters?
>

No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a lot
of work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.

Hmm. Is it possible (or even a good idea?) to just require that quotes
be "integrated" into the review? To me there's a world of difference
in saying: "I particularly liked your use of detail, such as when you
said '[X]'. And I could feel the cloth of Faramir's tunic when you
wrote'[Y]'" and in saying: "Here are some of my favourite passages:
[X] [Y] [Z] ... " So if a review just has a long list of quotes the
admins could ask the voter to rephrase and resubmit?

Would it maybe be possible to let the voter submit an "official" vote
with few quotes, but to post to the Yahoo group some of their
favourite quotes? These could be included on the "comments" page but
wouldn't count for voting purposes.

> >I think, after my experiences as the offender, the quote should not

change

> the points allotted to the story.
> But this is difficult to administrate and to police.
>
> It's hard to count the characters of the whole comment and then

subtract out

> the characters of the quotes. We need to make it as easy as possible

for

> vote counters.

I agree - but will it be considerably harder than having the vote
counters police for quotes over a certain amount? I think they'd still
have to do character counts on all the quotes to check and see if they
should be counted.

Assuming we're still doing this by hand next year... aren't the voters
copying into Word or some word processor to count? Maybe if we
required that all quotes be set off by some special character? ' is no
good, as that's also used for contractions. And some emails had " as
curly-quotes and some as straight-quotes. Maybe put * at the beginning
and end? Then the vote counter could do a search for * and delete the
quote, then do the word count?

<snip>
[Elanor]

> >But I am in favour of quoting,
> there might be persons who set the limit at 100 characters.
>

I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's writing
is really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer
Hemingway, to use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story
fits his or her personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer
liked it.

*However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I
particularly liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer
should indicate why he or she likes a particular quote and what it did
for the overall story. And the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.

> Formatting was really strange at times. You can't have a hard

return in an

> Excel spreadsheet. So my comments didn't. I copied them into the

ballot and

> then poof, the lines broke up. Go figure.
>

Ainae, I noticed that on the web sites some comments break off mid-
sentence. I wasn't even going to mention it because it's really not
important, if I really wanted to see I just searched for the comment
in the Yahoo group. But could this be related to the '/n' that I think
you said you were using to preserve hard returns? And would it make
things simpler for you next year if we said 'no line breaks in
comments'? (It might also encourage people to limit how much they
quote.)

> > 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered Good idea, but
> > logistically problematic. We don't archive stories, so how would

we

> > police that? The only thing I can think of is that we make a
> > suggestion to voters that they don't have to read more than the

first

> > two chapters or some such.
>

I don't think you can require people only read the first few chapters
(or disallow them from reading the whole thing). Even if you archived
the stories, people could find the whole things elsewhere. And how
would you handle people who had been reading the WIPs as they were
posted? I think the question shouldn't be whether to permit people to
read the whole WIP or not, but whether to allow them to read less than
that. If I only had time to read the first four chapters of "Lie Down
in Darkness" can I review just those four chapters (perhaps noting
that my review only addressed the first four chapters)?

For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long
finished works - can we allow people to review long works that they
have only found the time to read part of, but enough to get a feel for
the material?

<snip>
[Elanor]

> > I have the feeling the whole WIP should be taken into

consideration for

> voting.
> But this is my personal feeling.
>
> >Why ?
> "Captain, my Captain" by Isabeau
> in the first chapters
> for me is gorgeous but I cannot follow
> the heroine into the second part.
>
> >So if I had read only the first chapters I would have written a 10

points

> comment.
> But for my taste the story develops
> into a direction I cannot follow,
> so the 10 points comment is out.
>

I see our point. Stories can start off good but taper off or change
in such a way that the reader no longer likes them as much. But with
WIPs, there's no guarantee that the change won't take place after what
the author has currently written.

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap

>Hi Ainae,

Hi.

>(Quotes are from Ainae except where indicated.)

Now they're from Marta. ;-)
Re: Author comments

>I like them. And for those of us who are more interested in the feedback

than whether we win an award, any feedback is an added bonus.
(I consider myself in the latter category; I was tickled pink at how many
people read and enjoyed my stuff, people who I hadn't known were reading
prior to these awards). I do think they need to change, though.

I definitely like them myself. Receiving them. I don't mind giving them. I
just recognize they are harder to write.

>Your suggestions of allowing people to submit the same comment for the same

author in different categories was a good one. I also think the suggestion
of an overall authors category, with some subcategories, was also a good
one. I can understand your reason for not wanting to award just three awards
for all the authors. And I can understand you not seeing how Author/X is not
different from X/Author (where X is any category such as Elves, The Hobbit,
Mystery, etc.) I think where the confusion was coming in was, you were
thinking there would be one subcategory of Authors for every other category
in the awards. I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. I'm not
sure which categories do and don't need subcategories and I'm sure we would
need to flesh this out further if we go this route. But, for example,
Silmarillion maybe wouldn't need an authors subcategory - the authors could
compete under Elves and Men.

No, if the story is in Silm, the author is in Silm. If the author chooses
to have her story be in Elves, she's nominated under Elves. You know there
are a lot of Men in the Silm. Look at Turin, Tuor, Hurin, et al. And a mix
thereof. Tuor and Idril. Earendil. There are some authors out there who
only write under Silm. They consider themselves Silm fanficers. They should
be able to elligible to receive the Best Silmarillion Author award.

>You could also arguably say that each author can only compete in one

subcategory of Authors. So if I have stories nominated in Drama, The Hobbit,
Men, Hobbits, and Romance, I would choose one. But this runs into the
problem of different categories requiring different skills.

No. Again, I've said that I don't like limiting these. There is another
awards program that only lets you nominated one story per category. I
really don't like that. There will be no limit. If you write a story in
Hobbits and you write a story in Silm, you are up for both Best Hobbits
Author and Best Silmarillion Author.

>However, I don't think you like the one Authors category idea. That's fine.

I'm just trying to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding.

My brain is telling me it would be more complicated to figure out who is
elligible for what if we go Authors/Elves, Authors/Elves/Drabble,
Authors/Men....

At least administratively. Getting the lists together would take a lot more
time. It's not very hard when it's Elves/Authors, Elves/Authors/Poetry,
etc. Because the stories are grouped by category and then subcategory in
the spreadsheets, it's easy to see which authors are elligible where.

And for me, as a voter, I'm a lot more likely to write a somewhat decent
Author comment if it's right there with the story. Ideally, I read the
story, comment on the story, comment on the author. (Though if the author
has several stories in the same category, I'll read all the stories I want
to by that person before I write the author comment.)

> > 2) Honorable Mention

>Definitely less than five. My original idea was within 10% of the first

place vote count (rounded to the nearest vote). So if, say, first prize was
36 votes honourable mentions go to everyone within four votes of the third
prize award (36 * 0.1 = 3.6 ≈ 4). But I am a math major. I just
finished my last semester and am two incompletes away from my BS in applied
math. Maybe the admins don't want something that hard to compute (though the
math seems second nature to me, it may not to whoever is counting the
votes).

;-) I hate math. With a passion! I haven't had to take a math class since
my freshman year of college and that was over 14 years ago. I love my
calculators now. No percentages please.

>The exact number, though, is less important to me than that honourable

mentions are distributed. I will go with whatever Ainae and/or the rest of
the group decides.

Is anyone opposed to 5? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

> > 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.

>It's not. I think the Mithrils ran into a similar problem. Since the set-up

is different, I think they were able to solve this issue by having screeners
do the word-count (though I could be mistaken); that of course wouldn't work
for me.

>I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for what we

consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to indicate where
they want their story to run, just like they'll choose their category.

That's an idea. There are two issues with this, though. I'm for one and
against the other. Though it may be hard for me to write out why.

For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
reading.

Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the exeption of
those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.

>Here's my best stabs at word counts.

>* Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less

* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
consisting of multiple scenes)

This sounds better to me. Have you ever entered a writing contest? They
often say a limit of 25,000 words for short stories.

>* Novella: 25,000 - 50,000 words

* Novel: 50,000+ words

I might go a little higher than that. 70,000 is the average Pocket Books was
doing. That's why I couldn't submit Oswiecim to them. I was 100,000 words
over. And cutting that much would have gutted it.

>Again, I think it should be the author's call, and these categories should

be flexible. If I have a piece that's 20,000 words but I think it reads more
like a novella than a short story, I should be able to put it there.

Absolutely.

>No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a lot of

work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.

How about "no more than two sentences"?

>Hmm. Is it possible (or even a good idea?) to just require that quotes be

"integrated" into the review? To me there's a world of difference in saying:
"I particularly liked your use of detail, such as when you said '[X]'. And I
could feel the cloth of Faramir's tunic when you wrote'[Y]'" and in saying:
"Here are some of my favourite passages:
[X] [Y] [Z] ... " So if a review just has a long list of quotes the admins
could ask the voter to rephrase and resubmit?

I like that idea. Others' thoughts?

>Would it maybe be possible to let the voter submit an "official" vote with

few quotes, but to post to the Yahoo group some of their favourite quotes?
These could be included on the "comments" page but wouldn't count for voting
purposes.

No. Too much work for me. Or the electronic method if we get one. A
computer would count a vote as a vote. Not differintiate. (I can't spell
that this evening.)

Re: vote-counters doing the math

>I agree - but will it be considerably harder than having the vote counters

police for quotes over a certain amount? I think they'd still have to do
character counts on all the quotes to check and see if they should be
counted.

I agree. I think character count as a limit is out.

>Assuming we're still doing this by hand next year... aren't the voters

copying into Word or some word processor to count? Maybe if we required that
all quotes be set off by some special character? ' is no good, as that's
also used for contractions. And some emails had " as curly-quotes and some
as straight-quotes. Maybe put * at the beginning and end? Then the vote
counter could do a search for * and delete the quote, then do the word
count?

Well, because when I count, I also copy that quote into a spreadsheet so I
can make the comments pages. If I have to fix the line breaks, I count
them, fix them in Word, and then copy them back to Excel.

I think one or two of the methods above are better.

>I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's writing is

really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer Hemingway, to
use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story fits his or her
personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer liked it.

>*However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I particularly

liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer should indicate why he
or she likes a particular quote and what it did for the overall story. And
the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.

If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why it's not
good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a comment for
the author. It's the author who is going to keep that feedback. Feedback
being the main purpose of the awards, it should be feedback format over
recommendation. The author doesn't need a list of quotes. They know what
they wrote. I wouldn't want a read to quote whole paragraphs of my stuff
just to say they liked it. A favorite line here or there is great though.
But mostly, I want to know why the reader liked it. And for another reader,
well, if I didn't think the story was interesting from the summary, I might
be looking at comment. I don't want to read the story until I want to read
the story. Tell me why you liked it and I might be curious enough to read
the story myself.

And then there's the vote-stacking. You're using the author's words to
build up character count instead of saying why you liked it.

>Ainae, I noticed that on the web sites some comments break off mid-

sentence. I wasn't even going to mention it because it's really not
important, if I really wanted to see I just searched for the comment in the
Yahoo group. But could this be related to the '/n' that I think you said you
were using to preserve hard returns? And would it make things simpler for
you next year if we said 'no line breaks in comments'? (It might also
encourage people to limit how much they
quote.)

Well, you'd think that would work, but it's exactly what didn't work for me.
Remember I was writing my comments ahead in an Excel spreadsheet cell. No
line breaks. Then I pasted them into the ballot. No line breaks when I
clicked Send. But when it showed up on the list it had line breaks.

> > 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered Good idea, but

>I don't think you can require people only read the first few chapters (or

disallow them from reading the whole thing). Even if you archived the
stories, people could find the whole things elsewhere. And how would you
handle people who had been reading the WIPs as they were posted? I think the
question shouldn't be whether to permit people to read the whole WIP or not,
but whether to allow them to read less than that. If I only had time to read
the first four chapters of "Lie Down in Darkness" can I review just those
four chapters (perhaps noting that my review only addressed the first four
chapters)?

It wouldn't be a requirement. They could read all they wanted. They just
wouldn't have to invest as much time in a WIP in order to vote on it.

>For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long finished

works - can we allow people to review long works that they have only found
the time to read part of, but enough to get a feel for the material?

No, answered this elsewhere. A WIP is, by definition, not finished. A
completed story is. You can't comment on how well the author wrapped up all
the loose ends in a WIP.

>I see our point. Stories can start off good but taper off or change in

such a way that the reader no longer likes them as much. But with WIPs,
there's no guarantee that the change won't take place after what the author
has currently written.

That's why they don't compete with completed stories and why the are
elligible again after they are finished.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Hi Ainae,

> Re: Authors comments

> >I like them. And for those of us who are more interested in the

feedback

>> than whether we win an award, any feedback is an added bonus.
>> (I consider myself in the latter category; I was tickled pink at

how many

>> people read and enjoyed my stuff, people who I hadn't known were

reading

>> prior to these awards). I do think they need to change, though.

> I definitely like them myself. Receiving them. I don't mind giving

them. I

> just recognize they are harder to write.

Sure. I wrote precious few myself, even compared to the relative
number of authors (compared to story entries in any given category).
If I could write just one per author and copy-and-paste into multiple
ballots, I think I'd write a lot more. Especially if we have access to
some samples (either from this years' awards, or from the Star Trek
awards) I think that will make it all the easier.

<snip>

> My brain is telling me it would be more complicated to figure out

who is

> elligible for what if we go Authors/Elves, Authors/Elves/Drabble,
> Authors/Men....

> At least administratively. <snip>

I see your point here. And I'm all for anything that will make your
job (and others') easier.

> And for me, as a voter, I'm a lot more likely to write a somewhat

decent

> Author comment if it's right there with the story. Ideally, I read

the

> story, comment on the story, comment on the author. (Though if the

author

> has several stories in the same category, I'll read all the stories

I want

> to by that person before I write the author comment.)

Hmm, I generally write my authors' comments all in one bunch, just
before I send in the ballots. I think this helps me emphasize those
things that jumped out enough that I can remember them. But that's me.

If it's easier administratively, I'll go with X/Authors division, and
it will address all of my concerns if I can write one review for each
author and just copy-and-paste it into the different categories.

One question, though - are we supposed to restrict our comments just
to works by that author nominated for that years' awards, or can we
comment on the author more generally?

>>> 2) Honorable Mention

> >Definitely less than five. My original idea was within 10% of the

first

>>place vote count (rounded to the nearest vote).

<snip>

> ;-) I hate math. With a passion! I haven't had to take a math class

since

> my freshman year of college and that was over 14 years ago. I love

my

> calculators now. No percentages please.

Fair enough. Though you just move the decimal one place and round... ;
-)

But I digress. I know I'm more "math-y" than most people. And I am
still sufficiently reluctant to volunteer to figure out all those
honourable mentions myself.

Five sounds good to me. It's a fair number, is nice and round... are
there any objection?

>> The exact number, though, is less important to me than that

honourable

>>mentions are distributed. I will go with whatever Ainae and/or the

rest of

>>the group decides.

> Is anyone opposed to 5? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

"Not I," said the Little Red Hen...

>>> 3) Indicate size of story (by word count, or chapter stories vs.

>> It's not. I think the Mithrils ran into a similar problem. Since

the set-up

>>is different, I think they were able to solve this issue by having

screeners

>>do the word-count (though I could be mistaken); that of course

wouldn't work

>>for me.

Sorry, I meant for *the MEFAs*. But I guess everyone guessed what I
meant.

>> I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for

what we

>>consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to indicate

where

>>they want their story to run, just like they'll choose their

category.

> That's an idea. There are two issues with this, though. I'm for one

and

> against the other. Though it may be hard for me to write out why.

> For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
> reading.

I agree. It would be good to have some indication of length, even if
only a general category provided by author or a chapter count, even if
we didn't use it for categorization.

> Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the

exeption of

> those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.

I agree drabble and vignette should continue to be their own category.
I would add novel to this list, for a few reasons:

1. The basic structure may be the same as shorter works, but it takes
a certain skill to write a novel well. You need discipline and
endurance, and you need a very strong plot to carry a piece for 50k+
words.

2. There is more to comment on. We have argued that it is easier or
harder to write reviews for shorter or longer works; but we agree that
it is different.

3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a shorter multi-
part piece, just because it will spend more time on the front page of
archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
season.

I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing. Even if they
do, the differences show that longer works require a different skill
set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).

>> Here's my best stabs at word counts.

>> * Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
>>* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
>>consisting of multiple scenes)

> This sounds better to me. Have you ever entered a writing contest?

They

> often say a limit of 25,000 words for short stories.

No, unfortunately. Fanfic is the first fiction I've written since
about the age of eight (save some hastily-written school assignments).
But I have *read* a lot of fiction, and 20-25k seemed about average
for the short story I felt comfortable reading.

>> * Novella: 25,000 - 50,000 words
>>* Novel: 50,000+ words

> I might go a little higher than that. 70,000 is the average Pocket

Books was

> doing. That's why I couldn't submit Oswiecim to them. I was 100,

000 words

> over. And cutting that much would have gutted it.

I chose 50,000 because this is the limits for both National Novel
Writing Month (NaNoWriMo.org) and the novel category at the Mithrils
(viragene.com/tolkien). And as you said, I think pieces tend to be a
bit shorter here than in the Trek fandom, both because we're writing
for a free publishing and largely electronic medium, and because the
canon is so extensive that there's less a need to fill in the
background.

But I'm negotiable on this. If you really think 70,000 is the better
limit I'll go with that.

<snip>

>>> No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a

lot of

>>work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.

> How about "no more than two sentences"?

Hmm, but sentence length varies so much from writer to writer. Maybe
"no more than four lines" - lines being of the archive that you're
reading the fic at? You couldn't police this exactly, but I think you
could get a feel for how long such a passage was through your email?

I tend to see this as more of a guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
You only check it if it looks like it's getting abused. But that may
not be the management's philosophy.

<snip>

>> Would it maybe be possible to let the voter submit an "official"

vote with

>>few quotes, but to post to the Yahoo group some of their favourite

quotes?

>>These could be included on the "comments" page but wouldn't count

for voting

>>purposes.

> No. Too much work for me.

Fair enough!

<snip>

> >Assuming we're still doing this by hand next year... aren't the

voters

>>copying into Word or some word processor to count? Maybe if we

required that

>>all quotes be set off by some special character?

<snip>

> Well, because when I count, I also copy that quote into a

spreadsheet so I

> can make the comments pages. If I have to fix the line breaks, I

count

> them, fix them in Word, and then copy them back to Excel.

Hmm, so you can do character counts in Excel? I didn't know that. Or
are you saying that you count the characters in Word (or some other
way), but also put them in a spreadsheet for purposes of mail merge?

> I think one or two of the methods above are better.

I agree. I prefer them myself.

>> I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's

writing is

>>really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer

Hemingway, to

>>use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story fits his or

her

>>personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer liked it.

>> *However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I

particularly

>>liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer should

indicate why he

>>or she likes a particular quote and what it did for the overall

story. And

>>the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.

> If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why

it's not

> good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a

comment for

> the author.

That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
glad to have it clarified.

> It's the author who is going to keep that feedback. Feedback
> being the main purpose of the awards, it should be feedback format

over

> recommendation. The author doesn't need a list of quotes. They

know what

> they wrote. I wouldn't want to read a quote whole paragraphs of my

stuff

> just to say they liked it.

I like reading quotes from my stuff because it shows me what is
working. But short quotes. The rule-of-thumb I used was, if I were
quoting this in a term paper would I put it in block quotes (indented
text in a new paragraph with no quotes marks) or would I use
interlinear quotes (quotes worked into the body of the paper)? I think
the MLA guideline is four lines (in a word processor). Or maybe three.
Anywho, if it's long enough that I'd want to put it into a block
quote, it's probably too long for the awards and I would paraphrase
it, describe the beginning and end of the quote ("Everything from [X]
to [Y]."), or whatever.

But that's just my vague guideline, and I'm not sure how to make it
into a formal rule.

> A favorite line here or there is great though.
> But mostly, I want to know why the reader liked it.

I agree with you here. That's why I drew the distinction between
integrated quotes and just a list of several lengthy passages.

<snip>

> And then there's the vote-stacking. You're using the author's words

to

> build up character count instead of saying why you liked it.

Again, I agree.

>> Ainae, I noticed that on the web sites some comments break off mid-
>>sentence. I wasn't even going to mention it because it's really not
>>important, if I really wanted to see I just searched for the comment

in the

>>Yahoo group. But could this be related to the '/n' that I think you

said you

>>were using to preserve hard returns? And would it make things

simpler for

>>you next year if we said 'no line breaks in comments'? (It might

also

>>encourage people to limit how much they
>>quote.)

> Well, you'd think that would work, but it's exactly what didn't work

for me.

> Remember I was writing my comments ahead in an Excel spreadsheet

cell. No

> line breaks.

FWIW, I was composing mine in a Word .rtf document. There were
occasionally line breaks, but when I posted the ballot from the
website (groups.yahoo.com/group/mefawards/), the website entered line
breaks I didn't put in. We promises...

I know that in cases like these you will have to remove line breaks (I
suppose in a word processor document before you copy-and-paste into
the spreadsheet? That's how I'd do it.) But you wouldn't have to worry
about preserving the line breaks, which I assume would make your life
easier. But if you don't need that, then no need to mess with it.

>>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered

>> I don't think you can require people only read the first few

chapters
<snip>

>>I think the
>>question shouldn't be whether to permit people to read the whole WIP

or not,

>>but whether to allow them to read less than that.

<snip>

> It wouldn't be a requirement. They could read all they wanted.

They just

> wouldn't have to invest as much time in a WIP in order to vote on

it.

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Personally, I'd like to
have this option. Read a minimum of X chapters but as much as you want
to above that minimum, and then review (if you so choose) whatever
you've read.

>> For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long

finished

>>works

I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
finished epics.

Marta

<much snipping>

> >> I think the best solution is to offer a *suggested* word range for
> what we
> >>consider each length to represent, and ask the authors to indicate
> where
> >>they want their story to run, just like they'll choose their
> category.
>
> > That's an idea. There are two issues with this, though.
> I'm for one
> and
> > against the other. Though it may be hard for me to write out why.
>
> > For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
> > reading.
>
> I agree. It would be good to have some indication of length, even if
> only a general category provided by author or a chapter
> count, even if
> we didn't use it for categorization.

I agree. I would like before clicking to know what awaits me ;-)
I work as such:
read first the short pieces, as much of them as possible,
read then the longer pieces depending on the precis.

>
> > Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the
> exeption of
> > those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.
>
> I agree drabble and vignette should continue to be their own
> category.
> I would add novel to this list, for a few reasons:
>
> 1. The basic structure may be the same as shorter works, but it takes
> a certain skill to write a novel well. You need discipline and
> endurance, and you need a very strong plot to carry a piece for 50k+
> words.

I support this.

>
> 2. There is more to comment on. We have argued that it is easier or
> harder to write reviews for shorter or longer works; but we
> agree that
> it is different.

I very much support this.

>
> 3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
> accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a shorter multi-
> part piece, just because it will spend more time on the front page of
> archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
> season.
>
> I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
> shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing. Even if they
> do, the differences show that longer works require a different skill
> set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
> their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).

I think long stories will generate votes from readers who have read them
outside of reading season. At least I found no time to read new long stories
during reading time. I had enough to do to reread those already known to me
and to comment them (and then missing to vote on Dwim's story
makes me really sad, sigh) .

A new thought just came to me:
how about to integrate new comments on old stories into the
review pages from members of this list
marked by "written after contest in (year of addition)"?

They have not to be counted only to be copied into the web-page.

It is additional work for Ainaechoiriel, sorry about that,
but one could see which stories rise comments year after year.

Moreover, I think this will be few comments.

Yet, after 5 years you could add another award category:
"stories which thrive in the fan-community" ;-)

Made a new entry into database:
add comments after contest marked "written after contest in (year of
addition)"

>
> >> Here's my best stabs at word counts.
>
> >> * Vignette: one scene, 5,000 words or less
> >>* Short Story: 5,000-25,000 words (or a story less than 5,000 words
> >>consisting of multiple scenes)
>
> > This sounds better to me. Have you ever entered a writing
> contest?
> They
> > often say a limit of 25,000 words for short stories.
>

I have no further ideas to add concerning the number of words,
I only would like to see the long stories in another league.

> <snip>
> >>> No more than X characters seems the way to go, but it does put a
> lot of
> >>work on the voter. We want to make it as easy as possible.
>
> > How about "no more than two sentences"?
>
> Hmm, but sentence length varies so much from writer to writer. Maybe
> "no more than four lines" - lines being of the archive that you're
> reading the fic at? You couldn't police this exactly, but I think you
> could get a feel for how long such a passage was through your email?
>
> I tend to see this as more of a guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
> You only check it if it looks like it's getting abused. But that may
> not be the management's philosophy.

I would agree to that. Moreover, I proposed to reword my votes
when I got the info that my votes appeared to be vote stacking.
It would have been no problem for me.

I treated my votes very differently:
were the speech itself was very important for me I quoted
and were the content or craft was more important I paraphrased.
Thus, I did not realize that quoting might be seen as vote stacking.
But, I counted my characters before sending off any vote.
So, a critical person could see it as vote stacking.

Therefore, to avoid such critique to the MEFAwards
I offered again and again to rework the votes
while keeping the point-number the same as allotted.

Yet, seemingly to process the offered changed votes
would have required too much administrative efforts ;-)

<snipping>

>
> >> I like quoting too. It's the best way to show what an author's
> writing is
> >>really like. Because some like Faulkner whilst others prefer
> Hemingway, to
> >>use a metaphor, and a reader must decide whether a story
> fits his or
> her
> >>personal tastes, not whether a third party reviewer liked it.
>
> >> *However*. I agree that just saying "Here are four quotes I
> particularly
> >>liked" looks like vote-stacking. I think the reviewer should
> indicate why he
> >>or she likes a particular quote and what it did for the overall
> story. And
> >>the quotes should be kept reasonably brief.
>
> > If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
> it's not
> > good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> > recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
> comment for
> > the author.
>
> That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
> glad to have it clarified.

Hmm, I see it still as recommendations. This is what will appear in the web.
This is what readers will see when they search for recommended stories.
I will distribute the link to give hints on recommended stories if asked.

For me the recommendation part is at least as important as the
feedback to the authors. What are five feedbacks in comparison to
what the authors get in fanfiction.net or in the forums?
But clearly stated recommendations with small excerpts of the story
to get a feeling for the writing style is something
I would really very much like to see as a reader before I select a story.


<snipping>

> >>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>
> >> I don't think you can require people only read the first few
> chapters
> <snip>
> >>I think the
> >>question shouldn't be whether to permit people to read the
> whole WIP
> or not,
> >>but whether to allow them to read less than that.
> <snip>
> > It wouldn't be a requirement. They could read all they wanted.
> They just
> > wouldn't have to invest as much time in a WIP in order to vote on
> it.
>
> Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Personally, I'd like to
> have this option. Read a minimum of X chapters but as much as
> you want
> to above that minimum, and then review (if you so choose) whatever
> you've read.
>
> >> For the record, I think this question is also pertinent to long
> finished
> >>works
>
> I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
> distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
> finished epics.

I do not rescind my earlier words,
I still see no difference between WIP and completed story.
For me they are not in different leagues A and B with respect
to voting on all the chapters written.
But I do bow to the majority and especially the MEFA Admin :-)

Best wishes Elanor

-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 4:17 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem recap (Marta's post)


<much snipping>

(me, too!)

> > For: Knowing the length of story so I can budget my time better when
> > reading.
>
> I agree. It would be good to have some indication of length, even if
> only a general category provided by author or a chapter count, even if
> we didn't use it for categorization.

>I agree. I would like before clicking to know what awaits me ;-) I work as

such:
read first the short pieces, as much of them as possible, read then the
longer pieces depending on the precis.

Okay, I think we can Yes to showing that for reader consideration only at
this point. Anyone opposed?

> > Against: Different categories for different lengths, with the
> exeption of
> > those with specific formats: drabble and vignette.
>
> I agree drabble and vignette should continue to be their own category.
> I would add novel to this list, for a few reasons:

Okay, doesn't seem to be any opposition to that point.

> 1. The basic structure may be the same as shorter works, but it takes
> a certain skill to write a novel well. You need discipline and
> endurance, and you need a very strong plot to carry a piece for 50k+
> words.

>I support this.

I still don't. I'm not 100% sure on why. Par tof it is tradition (from the
ASC) an dpart of it I don't know... Just doesn't sit right with me. I had a
long story (Oswiecim--my longest) running concurrently with my short story
Healer. Healer didn't win. Oswiecim did. And many of the comments
Oswiecim got came because of the awards. I didn't have feedback from
everyone BEFORE the awards. More on that later.

But without knowing specifics, I'm sure there are times wher shorter stories
won over long ones. It simply went to the better story as judged by the
number and lengths of comments received.

> 2. There is more to comment on. We have argued that it is easier or
> harder to write reviews for shorter or longer works; but we agree that
> it is different.

>I very much support this.

I still say easier to write a long comment for a long story. But there will
very likely be more comments for short stories than for long ones. Volume
makes up for the difference in length.

> 3. Novels attract different readerships. A novel has time to
> accumulate a larger fanbase than a one-shot or even a shorter multi-
> part piece, just because it will spend more time on the front page of
> archives. Shorter pieces are more likely to be read during reading
> season.
>
> I am not convinced these factors cancel each other out, so that
> shorter and longer pieces can compete on equal footing. Even if they
> do, the differences show that longer works require a different skill
> set than shorter pieces. For this reason I think novels should have
> their own subcategory (where such a subcategory is viable).

>I think long stories will generate votes from readers who have read them

outside of reading season. At least I found no time to read new long stories
during reading time. I had enough to do to reread those already known to me
and to comment them (and then missing to vote on Dwim's story makes me
really sad, sigh) .

I disagree. I read several long stories both in Reading Season and in
Voting Season. During the off-season, I'm lucky to get anything read. And
when I do, it's usually the shorter stories. Hey, I've got 590 completed
LOTR stories in my infamous spreadsheet. Those are stories I'd like to
read. (I joked with Dwimordene last night that we should require all
nominations to be storeis in my spreadsheet...so I could weed it down!) The
1 chapter ones disappear (I delete them once they are read) a lot faster
than the 24 chapter ones. The awards motivated me to read a lot of LOTR
stories. I read more during Voting Season alone that I probably had all
year before. And some of them were very long indeed. I Return by Coriel,
for example.

So I believe the awards motivates NEW readers to read the long ones. It's
not just those who already know the story. I had never heard of I Return
before. Perchance to Dream had been in my spreadsheet for quite some time.
(Hallelujah it's gone!--You don't even want to know the number WIPs I'm
tracking....Actually, the number of Completed stories is more. I have 605
WIPs I'm tracking...in four or five fandoms. The 590 completeds were LOTR
alone. Total there is 705! Scary, isn't it?) But I'd never gotten around to
reading it.

I still think they do cancel each other out. Short Story A might get 5
2-point votes. Long Story B might get 2 5-point votes. Both end up with
10.

Would anybody statistically minded like to glean through our winners and see
how we stood on ling stories vs short stories?

>A new thought just came to me:

how about to integrate new comments on old stories into the review pages
from members of this list marked by "written after contest in (year of
addition)"?

Okay, now I understand it.

>They have not to be counted only to be copied into the web-page.

>It is additional work for Ainaechoiriel, sorry about that, but one could

see which stories rise comments year after year.

Yes, it's more work for me. But there's a simple solution: send the comment
to the author. I was saddened that my friend missed the deadline for voting
in the ASC Awards. I might have won an award if she hadn't. But when I read
those comments, because she sent them to me anyway, I nearly cried. I
treasure those comments, even if they didn't make it into the awards. I'm
very glad she sent them to me anyway.

>Moreover, I think this will be few comments.

>Yet, after 5 years you could add another award category:

"stories which thrive in the fan-community" ;-)

No, because that WILL smack of elitism. And while I'd love to think
Oswiecim would blow any other DS9 story out of the water in such a category,
it would hurt me greatly if it didn't. Because let's face it, people
replace old memories with new ones. Hey, Oswiecim MIGHT get remembered (my
friend's comment shows it does and I do still get similar comments now and
then) but it also MIGHT NOT. And then I'd feel very bad indeed.

I'm one who also values the competition side of the awards, though it is
secondary. I WANT to win. I love feedback even when I don't, but I do love
to win. And it hurt when I didn't have a story in the running for ASC two
or three years ago (and very likely this year considerint the deadline is
Feb. 1st.) It hurt when I got so few comments for the third part of my
trilogy. My own fault really. It was posted two years after the second
part. Some of my readers of the first part had faded away by then....

And I've NEVER won Best DS9 Author. Not even Oswiecim's year. Saddens me,
to be honest.

So, no, I don't want to make an elitist award.

>I have no further ideas to add concerning the number of words, I only would

like to see the long stories in another league.

See above. Still against it. Scared to put it in a poll, too. Especially
when only a small fraction of our membership is participating in the polls.
HINT HINT You can keep trying to convince me, but I'm not there yet.

Oh, and to Marta's point:
I was talking about this to Dwim, and I know I've posted it here before.
Long and short do have the same elements and they have their own advantages
and disadvantages. It's easier to find a good plot that voers a longer
period of time. Finding a whole plot that takes place in 3 days or less is
not as easy. Thus novels are easier. But filling a novel is hard. Not
every day of those two years is exciting. So you have some filler. But
it's got to be usefull filler..... No need for filler with short stories. So
short stories are easier.

If anybody asks me which are harder, they get that answer. In a nutshell:
both.

I do feel novels will be DISADVANTAGED if they run in their own category. I
think more people will be able to walk right by them, thinking, I'll get to
that subcategory if I have time. Which they won't. I think they have a
better chance of being read if they are together. And we don't have to try
and figure where to make the breaking line.

This one is Marta's

> Hmm, but sentence length varies so much from writer to writer. Maybe
> "no more than four lines" - lines being of the archive that you're
> reading the fic at? You couldn't police this exactly, but I think you
> could get a feel for how long such a passage was through your email?
>
> I tend to see this as more of a guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
> You only check it if it looks like it's getting abused. But that may
> not be the management's philosophy.

Four lines is a block quote. Too much. Three lines, the same. A web page
has varied width based on the viewer's window-size besides. So four lines
could be very long indeed. Two sentences is more succinct. Yes, that could
be two paragraphs if you're talking about the first two sentences of
Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities, but that's not the usual case.

Back to Elanor

>I would agree to that. Moreover, I proposed to reword my votes when I got

the info that my votes appeared to be vote stacking.
It would have been no problem for me.

(snippage)

>Therefore, to avoid such critique to the MEFAwards I offered again and

again to rework the votes while keeping the point-number the same as
allotted.

Thank you.

<snipping>

> > If you remember there are two sides to this stuff, you can see why
> it's not
> > good on a couple of levels. Yes, on one side, we are writing
> > recommendations for stories. But on the other, we are writing a
> comment for
> > the author.
>
> That's true. I was actually a bit confused about the focus, and I'm
> glad to have it clarified.

>Hmm, I see it still as recommendations. This is what will appear in the

web.
This is what readers will see when they search for recommended stories.
I will distribute the link to give hints on recommended stories if asked.

That's fine. But my main purpose for putting them up there was for the
authors. Not all of them are members here. I want them to be able to save
off those comments and keep them. Hey, if anyone wants to read all my
Oswiecim comments to decide if they want to read it, I'll gladly e-mail them
to you. ;-) But I'm glad the feedbackers sent the feedback to me. And
that's they way I see ff.net reviews too. It's one reason I've not liked
the chaptering feature when it was added. It turned reviews into mostly
post-more-encouragements rather than a review of the story. You might find
a mediocre Mary-Sue 20, chapter story with 300 reviews. Oswiecim has only
54. Which is the better story?

But I digress. I want our comments to be reviews. That means that
chapter-by-chapter comments won't be allowed next year either. That does
give longer stories an advantage. If you write just two sentences (even of
the same length) per chapter for two stories, one 2 chapters and the other
10, which will have the higher point count? Review the whole story.

>For me the recommendation part is at least as important as the feedback to

the authors. What are five feedbacks in comparison to what the authors get
in fanfiction.net or in the forums?

You'd be surprised. Sometimes, because the feedbacker knows it's for the
awards they write more for the comment than they would for the author. It's
like writing a rewiew of a book that's goint to be read by newspaper
readers, though it's addressed to the author. And, because ff.net may not
have gotten the reader to read that particular story, the awards may. Story
A may be so buried in ff.net that Reader B never finds it. But they find it
in the awards and love it. They write a comment. Now Story A's author has
feedback from Read B that she never had before.

Remember that I commented on nearly 300 stories and authors this year. I
can promise you I didn't read them all beforehand. And sometimes when I
did, I didn't leave a review at ff.net just because I was in a hurry or
whatever.

And! The MEFAs are positive feedback. Negative and even constructive
criticism goes against the voter here because it might get an unfavored
story an award. So here it's ALL encouragement.

>But clearly stated recommendations with small excerpts of the story to get

a feeling for the writing style is something I would really very much like
to see as a reader before I select a story.

They can click the link to get a feeling of the writing style.


<snipping>

> >>> 6) WIPs: only the first few chapters considered
>

> I rescind. ;-) After reading the discussion, I understand the
> distinction, why this option should only be for WIPs and not for
> finished epics.

>I do not rescind my earlier words,

I still see no difference between WIP and completed story.

There is a BIG one. For one thing, they're unfinished. For another, you cut
the potential reader population when you bring up a WIP.

>For me they are not in different leagues A and B with respect to voting on

all the chapters written.
But I do bow to the majority and especially the MEFA Admin :-)

Thanks. But the issue isn't closed or decided yet. In fact, Dwim, was
against it when I spoke to her on the phone. Perhaps she'll find the time
to post her reasons why here soon.

Oh, by the by, I want to end the Post Mortem when December ends. With the
exception of categories. We'll do those (which ones stay, which ones get
added, different award titles, etc.) in January. Okay?


--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com