Yahoo Forum Archive

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200623166277611713912756676615979
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Msg# 2953

Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Larian December 01, 2004 - 14:34:47 Topic ID# 2953
I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as
well. I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on
day 1 of the voting season, and all the categories could be voted on
throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking
that if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave
all the categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize
the time the counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need
for an amnesty day.

(I know, the counters were supposed to get breaks and what not, but I
think the six weeks actually made the problem worse, since some of
them ended up disappearing partway through. This way, it's a bit more
concentrated and the end more easily seen.)

My suggestion: Cut the voting season down to two full weeks, and have
all the categories open for the duration.

Msg# 2957

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all Posted by elanor of aquitania December 01, 2004 - 15:33:24 Topic ID# 2953
> I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as
> well. I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on
> day 1 of the voting season, and all the categories could be voted on
> throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

My heartfelt agreement to that !

>
> The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
> suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking
> that if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave
> all the categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize
> the time the counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need
> for an amnesty day.

I agree also to that.

I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on
one of my favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim
because it was categorized as Drama and for my mind it belonged
to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me undistinguished categorization
in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I forgot to vote for a
story I had printed, read, and commented on the print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched
through the e-mails for my comment to remind
Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)

>
> (I know, the counters were supposed to get breaks and what not, but I
> think the six weeks actually made the problem worse, since some of
> them ended up disappearing partway through. This way, it's a bit more
> concentrated and the end more easily seen.)

More agreement ;-)
Though I would make it three weeks or even more for voting,
please think of the Real Life constraints of the voters.

I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time
and then let the counters work for two weeks in the end
_after_ the voting. In this case quite a few voters
would happily help with the counting as I did, presumably.
During voting season I simply had not enough time to set aside
for counting as I struggled to read and to write votes.

For me too it seems easier to shepherd the counters
to do through what they are supposed to do during a short period
then to account for all the Real Life problems of the counters
they are accosted by through such a lengthy time.

In my impression quite a few counters had a problem
with the counting of Amnesty Day votes
which were not updated in the Data base.

>
> My suggestion: Cut the voting season down to two full weeks, and have
> all the categories open for the duration.

My expanded suggestion:
Voting season of 4 weeks or more,
have all categories open for the duration,
and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks
(and as long as is needed).

Best wishes Elanor

Msg# 2960

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 15:39:37 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories



>I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

This one is up for debate, too, I think. I, personally, wouldn't want to
have to vote on them all at once. Having them run in different periods
actually helped me. I didn't use Reading Season well. I was still in Elves
(the first category I started reading) when Voting Season started. Having
Elves and Men stop in 10 days, gave me incentive to hurry up and get to some
other categories. When Hobbits and Orcs ended, I was again prompted to get
over to Rohan and Numenor (which I still managed to miss entirely until
Amnesty Day). I will also say that this is the way ASC does it and that's
why we do it here. We don't have to follow everything they do though. But
it was certainly easier on me to pick up from where they were and just tweak
what needed tweaking.

And yes, there is the bit about faciliatating counting, and yes, you are
right that some did disappear and we had to scramble to count at the end. I
think I ended up counting 16 categories. (Thank you everyone who picked up
the slack! We still had our required 3 different counters per comment!) I
personally liked having 5 days off here and there. I think we could
definitely combine author & story for the same counter though. (I just
finalized that one.) That might keep them around. And if we keep the
catgories running at different times, we could spell it out what time period
the counters are counting for.

>The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking that
if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave all the
categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize the time the
counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need for an amnesty day.


There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all catgories at the same time
and 2) shorten Voting Season.

I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2. I don't think so. I
would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted on. And there was a
poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was too long, too, short, or
just right. The vote was "just right".

I could have used more time! But was glad for a deadline because, hey, I do
have a life. ;-)

Discuss on this one (change the subject line accordingly) and it will go to
poll soon.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2962

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Viv December 01, 2004 - 15:51:25 Topic ID# 2953
I was out of town for the entire Elves voting season,
and (unexpectedly) on Amnesty day. The voting
schedule, which overlapped and didn't seem to be in
any particular order, was also very confusing. I had
to put the chart on my computer desktop so I'd know
which categories were up for votes on a given day!

I talked to several people who just got frustrated and
gave up.

So, I'm in the the shorter-voting-time + all
categories open camp.

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all
> catgories at the same time
> and 2) shorten Voting Season.
>
> I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2.
> I don't think so. I
> would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted
> on. And there was a
> poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was
> too long, too, short, or
> just right. The vote was "just right".
>
> I could have used more time! But was glad for a
> deadline because, hey, I do
> have a life. ;-)
>
> Discuss on this one (change the subject line
> accordingly) and it will go to
> poll soon.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the
> Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that."
> --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth
> Fanfiction Awards
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

Msg# 2976

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:48:48 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories



>I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.

The surprise would be my fault. Or my stress-adled memory's. Anyway, that
is the way it's done at ASC, and since I borrowed so heavily from ASC, that
is the way it was done. I also prefer it that way, but that doesn't mean
I'm being dictatorial on this one. I'm still open for persuasion and it may
even go to poll.

BTW: I'm leaving work in about 10 minutes and may or may not be on again
until tomorrow.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2978

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 16:56:50 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:36 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


>I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was categorized as
Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR. So due to this for me
undistinguished categorization in the stress of Real Life and Amnesty day I
forgot to vote for a story I had printed, read, and commented on the
print-outs.
I was so sure that I had voted on this story that I searched through the
e-mails for my comment to remind Ainaechoiriel of my missing comment ;-)

Where stories are put will be up to authors in the future, I believe.
Though for the 2004's you would first have to blame the nominators, then the
staff for trying to make sure all stories were in viable categories.

>I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time and then
let the counters work for two weeks in the end _after_ the voting. In this
case quite a few voters would happily help with the counting as I did,
presumably.
During voting season I simply had not enough time to set aside for counting
as I struggled to read and to write votes.

This is more a decision for Staff next year than the post-mortem as it
doesn't really affect how the awards are run. It's more just logistics. I'm
not against it. But then I'm also somewhat obsessive/compulsive and
impatient. I'd be counting votes from day one and still worrying about the
other counters getting their totals in on time.....

>In my impression quite a few counters had a problem with the counting of
Amnesty Day votes which were not updated in the Data base.

Yes, though that comment is counter to the one above. One day, then all the
counting doen in the two weeks after. And yet we lost some of the counters
we had.

>My expanded suggestion:
Voting season of 4 weeks or more,

It's presently 6.

>have all categories open for the duration,

Still up for debate. I've posted my views on that one.

>and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks (and as long as is
needed).

No on the as long as needed. No, we need to have a promised date for the
results. If I hadn't had that this year, we might still be waiting on real
life to let up for some of the counters. Instead, we fished out their counts
to others who were available and the totals came in on time.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2979

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 17:05:21 Topic ID# 2953
Probably my last post before I run out of here.

-----Original Message-----
From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


>I was out of town for the entire Elves voting season, and (unexpectedly) on
Amnesty day. The voting schedule, which overlapped and didn't seem to be in
any particular order, was also very confusing. I had to put the chart on my
computer desktop so I'd know which categories were up for votes on a given
day!

The order was the same order as in the FAQ and everything else listing the
categories when not sorted by Yahoo or Excel. Men, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs,
Rohan, Numenor, Humor, Adventure, Drama, Romance, Horror, Mystery, The Silm,
The Hobbit, and LOTR. And I just did that from memory. I may have swapped
one or two but the pairs are the same and they were put on the calendar as
simply as I could do them in a 6 week frame. Two at a time, 10 days, each,
overlapping by 5. And I put all those in the calendar on the yahoo site so
you could see when any of the categories ran.

>I talked to several people who just got frustrated and gave up.

I'm sorry, but I have to put that on them. The information was out there. I
promoted "early voting" quite hard right from the start, and even told
everyone how they could have their e-mail program send it for them on a
specified date. I even put all the ballots in the Files section when
someone asked. So they were there from the beginning of Voting Season.

Debating whether the season will be open or run in segments is still open.
Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to all the info out there
is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there. They only had to look.
Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two people vote-by-proxy
and posted their votes for them.

>So, I'm in the the shorter-voting-time + all categories open camp.
Is there anyone else who thought having the categories run at different
times was helpful?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 2980

AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all Posted by elanor of aquitania December 01, 2004 - 17:32:51 Topic ID# 2953
>>In my impression quite a few counters had a problem with the
>> counting of
>> Amnesty Day votes which were not updated in the Data base.
>
> Yes, though that comment is counter to the one above. One
> day, then all the
> counting doen in the two weeks after. And yet we lost some
> of the counters
> we had.

Hmm, for me this is not counter to the counting after an open season.
I thought more along these lines: the counters counted early,
then found no more time for counting further
(there were some counters who had only a few stories counted)
or found no time on Amnesty day.

If the counting were done in one rush after the voting
I think it would be easier to guide the team
up to the target: publication date.

But this really belongs into the staff discussion
if these arguments bear no impact for the
voting season open in all categories
which I support ;-)

Best wishes from Elanor
who has to go to bed now :-)

Msg# 2987

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Larian Elensar December 01, 2004 - 18:06:44 Topic ID# 2953
--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:35 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
> categories
>
>
>
> >I know I was taken by surprise, and I think a lot of people were as well.
> I was under the mistaken impression that voting would open on day 1 of the
> voting season, and all the categories could be voted on throughout. I
> assumed I'd have time to read during voting season.
>
> This one is up for debate, too, I think. I, personally, wouldn't want to
> have to vote on them all at once. Having them run in different periods
> actually helped me. I didn't use Reading Season well.

I tried to use reading season, and I did for a lot of the categories.


>
> And yes, there is the bit about faciliatating counting, and yes, you are
> right that some did disappear and we had to scramble to count at the end. I
> think I ended up counting 16 categories. (Thank you everyone who picked up
> the slack! We still had our required 3 different counters per comment!) I
> personally liked having 5 days off here and there. I think we could
> definitely combine author & story for the same counter though. (I just
> finalized that one.) That might keep them around. And if we keep the
> catgories running at different times, we could spell it out what time period
> the counters are counting for.

My only comment on that then, if you're going to specify counting periods, then
you do not offer an Amnesty Day. For one thing, that drags out the counting so
that the original counter feels obligated to stay and count it, or it makes it
difficult for someone new to step in and collect the ballots and count them.
Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified, we still had
a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.

I was thinking a 2 week voting season would keep the counters interested for
the whole thing, plus give a little time if RL issues cropped up.

Either way, I think the suggestion about having the ballots ready to go or made
available to fill out ahead was a good one too.


>
> >The amnesty day helped pick up the slack with a lot of that, and my
> suggestion may make things worse instead of better, but I was thinking that
> if we shorten the voting season to say...2 full weeks, and leave all the
> categories open the entire time, it would not only minimize the time the
> counters have to put in counting and eliminate the need for an amnesty day.
>
>
> There are actually two topics here: 1) Run all catgories at the same time
> and 2) shorten Voting Season.
>
> I discussed No. 1 above. Here's my 2 cents on #2. I don't think so. I
> would have only gotten 1/3 of what I voted on voted on. And there was a
> poll in the early days asking if 1 1/2 months was too long, too, short, or
> just right. The vote was "just right".

Yes, I voted for six weeks when I was under the impression that we could vote
for any category at all during that time. Having staggered them I'd say 6 weeks
was too long.


>
> I could have used more time! But was glad for a deadline because, hey, I do
> have a life. ;-)

Ditto. But concentrating it all into 2 weeks seems like it would take less
time, not more. And maybe this way, you don't have to scramble for more
counters at the last minute, if they know up front that their time is limited
to these two weeks, and we won't lose people who just...don't show up.

>
> Discuss on this one (change the subject line accordingly) and it will go to
> poll soon.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

>
>
>

Msg# 2995

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Viv December 01, 2004 - 19:52:16 Topic ID# 2953
I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to sound overly critical.
I've been a huge cheerleader for these awards and
think very highly of them. Maybe I can get my foot out
of my mouth if I yank on it hard enough. ;)

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Debating whether the season will be open or run in
> segments is still open.
> Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to
> all the info out there
> is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there.
> They only had to look.
> Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two
> people vote-by-proxy
> and posted their votes for them.


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net

Msg# 3013

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 01, 2004 - 23:39:08 Topic ID# 2953
Don't be so hard on yourself! At least your word order makes sense. (Mine
doesn't always!) :-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to sound overly critical.
I've been a huge cheerleader for these awards and think very highly of them.
Maybe I can get my foot out of my mouth if I yank on it hard enough. ;)

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Debating whether the season will be open or run in segments is still
> open.
> Dumping on how it was done this year in disregard to all the info out
> there is a bit hard for me to take. I put it out there.
> They only had to look.
> Or ask. I was very open to questions. I even let two people
> vote-by-proxy and posted their votes for them.


=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net


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Msg# 3015

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Ainaechoiriel December 02, 2004 - 0:27:19 Topic ID# 2953
-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:07 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all
categories


>My only comment on that then, if you're going to specify counting periods,
then you do not offer an Amnesty Day. For one thing, that drags out the
counting so that the original counter feels obligated to stay and count it,
or it makes it difficult for someone new to step in and collect the ballots
and count them.
Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified, we still
had a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.

Yes we did. Amnesty Day was actually a selfish wish that a lot of other
people decided was a good idea. There doesn't have to be one next year.
I'm not going to say I wish I didn't have one this year though. I'm glad I
did. But next year, I hope I don't need it. I'd like to use Reading Season
better and make Voting Season easier on myself.

>I was thinking a 2 week voting season would keep the counters interested
for the whole thing, plus give a little time if RL issues cropped up.

I don't know if it would make it easier or not to keep the counters around.
I don't think it would give any time for RL issues to come up. Let's get
some suggestions (2 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 3 weeks) and we'll put them in
a poll.

>--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Msg# 3017

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Marta December 02, 2004 - 0:42:39 Topic ID# 2953
> Even with most of the categories having been counted and verified,
we still
> had a mess squaring just the amnesty ballots sometimes.
>
> Yes we did. Amnesty Day was actually a selfish wish that a lot of
other
> people decided was a good idea. There doesn't have to be one next
year.
> I'm not going to say I wish I didn't have one this year though. I'm
glad I
> did. But next year, I hope I don't need it. I'd like to use
Reading Season
> better and make Voting Season easier on myself.
>

For what it's worth, I really appreciated amnesty day, and I know some
other people did, too. Of course I did not have to count the votes,
but I think if voting stays by category, keeping amnesty day is a very
good idea.

Is there any other way we can make amnesty day counting smoother,
short of removing the day entirely? I don't know what the problems
were behind the scenes, so I can't even begin to speculate.

Marta

Msg# 3020

Re: Post Mortem topic - Shorten voting season, open all categories Posted by Naresha December 02, 2004 - 5:36:05 Topic ID# 2953
--- Larian <larian_elensar@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------

> I was under the mistaken impression that voting
> would open on day 1 of the voting season, and
> all the categories could be voted on
> throughout. I assumed I'd have time to read
> during voting season.

Same here. In the end I couldn't vote because I
wasn't sure what would be when and my RL schedule
is so variable that I knew that everything would
just get too messy if I tried to do it all - even
with the amnesty day.

I know that if I knew I had a set period of
however long, then I could probably sort out
things I wanted to read and review a lot better.

Naresha.

=====
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