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But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is there a
danger there? I remember reading every comment that came through, especially on
stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing list of
"want to read". I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just that there
was a range: some very brief, some quite long (I loved reading those the most,
I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with someone over
coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).

Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17 stories... I
don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an award or
not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material, latest chapter of
a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was slash-only,
one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories, and a number
which allowed both slash and het. I figure if I were to complain that there's
not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have little ones who are often
reading over my shoulder), someone would simply tell me I ought to organise one
if I felt the dearth. Not having a working organisational bone in my body, it
wouldn't happen. But if someone else organised, I might jump on the bandwagon.

Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My love life
is much better when I avoid porn.)

Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the "tamer"
or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking about throwing
NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled. I'm
afraid my head is not working well.

In a message dated 12/16/2004 2:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the
stories here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to
adult material, but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long
as you don't post an exact link. You can post a description such as
"available in HASA Beta under the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the
story is, and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't
be very hard if they have the title and author's name


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't think Marta meant for them to run together with "tamer" stories, but
in their own category or subcategory.

But my answer is still no. For some of the same reasons you specify. This
list is for general audience and while we don't archive stories, we do host
links to those stories and comments about those stories. Comments about
NC-17 stories can lean into being NC-17 themselves. And I don't want younger
people clicking on a link of our nominees finding an NC-17 story.

There *are* other awards out there for NC-17 stories. In fact,
Alt.StarTrek.Creative even has an offshoot:
Alt.StarTrek.Creative.Erotica.moderated (or something like that). And they
have their own awards, the Golden Os. I won't spell out what the O stands
for. A different group administrates the Golden Os and ASC-EM.

If someone else wants to create an off-shoot to the MEFAs for NC-17 stories,
you are welcome to borrow from the MEFAs, just as I have borrowed from ASC.
It could be the MEEFAs (Middle-Earth Erotic Fanfiction Awards). It just
won't be me running it. The MEFAs will continue on as relatively family
friendly. (I say relatively because we do allow R-rated stories).

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com





-----Original Message-----
From: bljean@aol.com [mailto:bljean@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:47 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: NC-17 stories?


But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is there a
danger there? I remember reading every comment that came through, especially
on stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing list
of "want to read". I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just
that there was a range: some very brief, some quite long (I loved reading
those the most, I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with
someone over coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).

Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17 stories...
I don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an award or
not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material, latest
chapter of a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was
slash-only, one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories,
and a number which allowed both slash and het. I figure if I were to
complain that there's not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have
little ones who are often reading over my shoulder), someone would simply
tell me I ought to organise one if I felt the dearth. Not having a working
organisational bone in my body, it wouldn't happen. But if someone else
organised, I might jump on the bandwagon.

Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My love life
is much better when I avoid porn.)

Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the "tamer"
or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking about
throwing
NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled. I'm
afraid my head is not working well.

In a message dated 12/16/2004 2:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the stories
here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to adult material,
but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long as you don't post an
exact link. You can post a description such as "available in HASA Beta under
the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the story is,
and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't be very hard if
they have the title and author's name


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Even though I do occasionally write NC-17 material, I must say that I agree
with Lindelea... Let's just keep this space as is, there are indeed other
awards that are inclined in that direction.

SilverMoonLady

>From: bljean@aol.com
>Reply-To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: NC-17 stories?

>
>But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is there a
>danger there? I remember reading every comment that came through,
>especially on
>stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing list of
>"want to read". I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just that
>there
>was a range: some very brief, some quite long (I loved reading those the
>most,
>I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with someone over
>coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).
>
>Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17 stories...
>I
>don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an award or
>not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material, latest
>chapter of
>a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was
>slash-only,
>one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories, and a number
>which allowed both slash and het. I figure if I were to complain that
>there's
>not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have little ones who are
>often
>reading over my shoulder), someone would simply tell me I ought to organise
>one
>if I felt the dearth. Not having a working organisational bone in my body,
>it
>wouldn't happen. But if someone else organised, I might jump on the
>bandwagon.
>
>Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My love
>life
>is much better when I avoid porn.)
>
>Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the "tamer"
>or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking about
>throwing
>NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.
>
>I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled. I'm
>afraid my head is not working well.
>
>In a message dated 12/16/2004 2:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:
>I don't think that's necessarily a problem... we aren't posting the
>stories here. I think there might be a problem with posting links to
>adult material, but at Henneth_Annun you can SSP NC17 material so long
>as you don't post an exact link. You can post a description such as
>"available in HASA Beta under the name Marta" or whatnot. Maybe for
>NC17 stories we could just give the name of the archive where the
>story is, and people could go find it without a direct link? Shouldn't
>be very hard if they have the title and author's name
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi guys, especially Ainae and Lindelea,

When I brought up the issue of including NC-17 stories, I was not
trying to make a judgment on the value of NC-17 stories (or the lack
thereof), or criticize this year's awards for not including them. Just
to make that clear.

I also was not suggesting a separate NC-17 category. I was suggesting
that NC-17 stories be allowed to compete in any stories, under the
same rules as R-rated stories: they must carry the appropriate
warnings (including the NC-17 rating), and comments about them must be
suitable for a general-audience group. I couldn't cite you a rule to
this effect, but a few people referred in their comments to keeping a
comment vague so that it would be "PG". If R-rated stories can be
reviewed in such a way that's appropriate for a general audience Yahoo
group, I don't see any reason why NC-17 stories couldn't be similarly
reviewed.

I was not even thinking about erotica when I opened up this topic. I
was thinking more about violence. Also, there seems to be a tendency
of people to up-rate their stories. R can be a rather underused
rating, and a lot of people have a hard time seeing the distinction
between the two.

If you want to keep the awards "family friendly" I'm okay with that. I
guess my point was that for a lot of things, one person's NC-17 is
another person's R (and vice versa, I suppose). There was one good
author in particular whose stuff I thought could have been rated R, it
was certainly no more "adult" or explicit than some of the other
things that were nominated this year, but she declined to allow the
stories to run because she rated them NC-17. I respected her wishes
and did not nominate the stories, of course.

Anyway, at the risk of over-debating an issue that's already been
decided (Ainae, feel free to tell me to shut up and I will do so)...

<snip>

> But what about the comments the stories might engender? Quotes? Is

there a

> danger there?

I think that most comments of R-rated stories pretty much restricted
themselves to something that was appropriate for a general audience. I
tried to keep mine at least PG rated. And what I was reviewing, it was
usually the mechanics of the story or the general plot - not a blow-
by-blow of a gory battle scene the author had written. If this is not
a rule already, I think it should be, that comments of *any* fic
despite the rating should be acceptable for members as young as 13 (I
think that's the youngest age a person can have a Yahoo account?).

> I remember reading every comment that came through, especially on
> stories I hadn't looked at, in part because I have an ever-growing

list of

> "want to read".

Oh, yes. I read most of the comments, too. In part because I'm
impatient and I wanted to see how I was "doing" compared to the other
people in my categories) ;-)

>I don't remember how detailed the comments were, just that there
> was a range: some very brief, some quite long

I have been reading through the comments to spotcheck errors (am
working on that, Ainae, slowly but surely). So far I haven't come
across anything that I'd be uncomfortable reading in a "General" story
at HASA, which is the archive where I happen to read most so where I'm
most comfortable. Most G, a few PG, and most of the suggestive ones
are only at all suggestive if you have also read the story.

> (I loved reading those the most,
> I think, just because it was sort of like sitting down with someone

over

> coffee to discuss stories we're currently reading).
>

Oh, yes! For the exact same reason.

> Y'know, I'd imagine there are already awards out there for NC-17

stories... I

> don't know where I'm going with that remark, whether there is an

award or

> not. I think when I was researching awards (for story material,

latest chapter of

> a satire that is not going well), I noticed at least one that was

slash-only,

> one that seemed pretty heavily tilted towards "adult" stories, and a

number

> which allowed both slash and het.

I am obviously out of the loop on awards in this fandom. I am aware of
the Golden Mushroom Awards, Mithril Awards, and My Precious Awards -
all of which, I think, allow stories through NC17/Adult. But the story
must be properly labelled. And I'm not aware of any award that is
*only* NC17. Even slash... slash does not necessarily == smut. I have
seen PG slash (and I do not read much slash by a long shot). I
honestly don't see why there's such a difference between R and NC17.

> I figure if I were to complain that there's
> not an awards for "family-friendly" reading (I have little ones who

are often

> reading over my shoulder), someone would simply tell me I ought to

organise one

> if I felt the dearth.

Yes, they probably would!

> Not having a working organisational bone in my body, it
> wouldn't happen. But if someone else organised, I might jump on the

bandwagon.

>

At one point I was considering starting an award for Men (i.e.,
Gondor, Rohan, etc.)but then RL got in the way. It's been a really
rough six months for me, personally, and I won't be organizing
anything like this for a long time. Or probably even jumping on the
bandwagon for something new.

But there might be room for a family-friendly award. If this is where
MEFA wants to go, I'm fine with that. (In this case I think we also
need to bar R-rated fics.) I just thought the reason for no NC17 was
to keep the Yahoo group from being adult (which I agree with), so I
wanted to point out that wasn't necessarily a problem.

> Of course, I'm not the best person to ask since I avoid NC-17. (My

love life

> is much better when I avoid porn.)
>

Yes, I can understand that. I do not read what I would consider "porn"
- on occasion I will read a good story even if it has an explicit
scene or two, but never PWP. Part of it's a religious conviction issue
(and a feminist issue at that) - I don't like to see sex portrayed
that way (but that really *is* another discussion, lol!). But mainly I
just find those kinds of stories... well, boring.

But see my earlier comments - things besides sex can make a story
NC17. Violence. In some cases, even just mature themes.

> Is it really necessary to throw in graphic descriptions amongst the

"tamer"

> or subtler stuff? I'm not debating the NC-17 genre, I'm talking

about throwing

> NC-17 stories and summaries in with the others.
>

No, it's not. And I don't think we would be doing this, by allowing
NC17 stuff; they would carry the NC17 ratings. The comments and
summaries would have to be suitable for a general audience, just like
is true for R-rated stuff now.

> I hope this post doesn't offend anyone or doesn't sound too muddled.

I'm

> afraid my head is not working well.
>

Not me! I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm overly pro-NC17. I don't think
I've ever written anything like that, and I usually don't read it, for
reasons that are my own. This is not an emotionally charged issue for
me; but there are stories I would like the chance to volunteer that I
think fall into that hazy area that some people call R and others'
NC17. I think it would make the awards more inclusive and simpler all
around if we allowed them, but that's just my instinct.

Marta

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Marta" <MartaL0712@n...> wrote:

>
> Hi guys, especially Ainae and Lindelea,

I'm going to do a lot of snipping, though I did read everything. I
just only have one or two main things to reply on.

> I was not even thinking about erotica when I opened up this topic.

I

> was thinking more about violence. Also, there seems to be a

tendency

> of people to up-rate their stories. R can be a rather underused
> rating, and a lot of people have a hard time seeing the distinction
> between the two.

That question came up quite early on. We lost a Moderator over it,
if you were around to remember. And in the end, it birthed the "What
is NC-17" text. You see we tried to decide what separated R and NC-
17. We fell back on movies as a guide. Sex was easy. Just about
anyone can say waht separates NC-17 and R when it comes to sex. But
violence? We thought of the most violent movies we could think of.
And they were R. Have you see the Passion of the Christ? I have sat
through horror movies since I was a kid. Yet I had to grab my
younger sister's hand during the scourging. How about Saving Private
Ryan? Veterans have claimed that D-Day invasion was the closest
films have come to realistic combat yet. Braveheart? Mel Gibson
was gutted there on screen. R. Kill Bill? Didn't see it but I saw
the previews. Gladiator? Also R.

We couldn't think of one movie that was rated NC-17 for violence. So
we came up with this (inspired by Jeff Foxworthy):

"Saving Private Ryan
The Passion of the Christ
Braveheart
Kill Bill
Pulp fiction
Gladiator
All of these movies were rated R. Which means, apparently, our
tolerance for violence is far higher than our tolerance for sex.

So, if the violence and gore in your story makes any of those movies
look like a Sunday School lesson about peace and love...
your story might be an NC-17. "

> Anyway, at the risk of over-debating an issue that's already been
> decided (Ainae, feel free to tell me to shut up and I will do so)...

I won't tell you to shut up. It *has* been decided. You can discuss
it all you want. ;-)

> I think that most comments of R-rated stories pretty much

restricted

> themselves to something that was appropriate for a general

audience. I

> tried to keep mine at least PG rated. And what I was reviewing, it

was

> usually the mechanics of the story or the general plot - not a blow-
> by-blow of a gory battle scene the author had written. If this is

not

> a rule already, I think it should be, that comments of *any* fic
> despite the rating should be acceptable for members as young as 13

(I

> think that's the youngest age a person can have a Yahoo account?).

Presently, there is a rule and it states:

[V.]B. Warning: all on-list comments should be suitable for children
under 18, even when commenting on R-rated stories or poems.

> I have been reading through the comments to spotcheck errors (am
> working on that, Ainae, slowly but surely). So far I haven't come
> across anything that I'd be uncomfortable reading in a "General"

story

> at HASA, which is the archive where I happen to read most so where

I'm

> most comfortable. Most G, a few PG, and most of the suggestive ones
> are only at all suggestive if you have also read the story.

I *didn't* read them all. I was far too busy. But I did see a
suggestive one now and then. I know at least one used the
word "smut". That, in itself, may not be enough to run afoul of rule
V.B., but it shows why we need to be careful to retain our family-
friendly nature.

> I am obviously out of the loop on awards in this fandom. I am aware

of

> the Golden Mushroom Awards, Mithril Awards, and My Precious Awards -

> all of which, I think, allow stories through NC17/Adult. But the

story

> must be properly labelled. And I'm not aware of any award that is
> *only* NC17. Even slash... slash does not necessarily == smut. I

have

> seen PG slash (and I do not read much slash by a long shot). I
> honestly don't see why there's such a difference between R and NC17.

See our What is NC-17 text on the web site and in the Files section.
We went for the jeff Foxworthy approach but it is still
our "official" definition.

> At one point I was considering starting an award for Men (i.e.,
> Gondor, Rohan, etc.)but then RL got in the way. It's been a really
> rough six months for me, personally, and I won't be organizing
> anything like this for a long time. Or probably even jumping on the
> bandwagon for something new.

That I understand. I love the MEFAs. I love why I started them, but
gosh it has been a LOT of work. And this for an already stress-
damaged person. I didn't bother telling the neurologist that I
started a new fanfiction awards contest that takes 6 months to run.
He might have slapped me upside the head!

> But there might be room for a family-friendly award. If this is

where

> MEFA wants to go, I'm fine with that. (In this case I think we also
> need to bar R-rated fics.)

I have a tougher time with that. As you said, a lot of stories rate
themselves higher than they need to. And then there is that violence
thing. We, as a people, appear to be biased. I am as well.I
realize it. Fictionaly violence, I generally have no problem with,
as long as it serves the plot. Sex though...I stay away. Real
violence is awful. I'm a torture-fic writer and fan. I hate it in
real life. Back to fic, I've written some pretty awful stuff,
violence-wise. I put a characted into Auschwitz for 5-7 weeks, I've
written another character as he was strangled to death, another as he
was being stabbed in the head by a laser scalpel. Heck, I've even
written (though the story was never finished and so isn't on the web
anywhere) a conscious (though numb and paralyzed) vivisection from
the point of view of the vivisectee! But the only story I ever rated
as an R was The Lure of the Darkness. Why? Because it's about a
spider seducing away a little girl so it can kill her.

Partly it's an R because it's about violence to a young child.
Partly because it's the closest thing to a sex story I'm likely ever
to write. Because that spider uses the imagery or language of lust.
It wants to eat the little girl, yes, not have sex with her. But the
language of lust is still there. It's an R to me, in a big way,
because of sex. Yet there's really no sex in it.

Got off on a tangent there. Anyway, I was watching R movies since I
was a kid. My parents allowed me, watched with me. My parents
aren't saints or anything. There were things we weren't allowed to
see: Porn, of course, but also the Exorcist is up there. I've never
seen it still and don't want to. But all the Friday the 13ths and
Alien movies, seen 'em forever. R movies make more money so many
times a PG or PG-13 will add a sex sceen to bump the story up to R.
Wasn't Titanic an R? Anyway, it's not a story about sex.

NC-17's generally can't say that and that's how we arrived at our
Jeff Foxworthy lines.

Read that and that's where we draw the line on what is and what isn't
elligible by rating.

--Ainaechoiriel