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I know Ainae said only three discussions at a time, but I added more
than that to the database so they were up there...a couple of them are
short anyway, and won't require much discussion, I don't think.


I realize we had to make decisions regarding categories, but I thought
it put a few types of stories at a disadvantage, because they had a
lot more competition. For instance, there was a Men category, a Rohan
category, and a Numenor category. A lot of stories could have fit
into Men-or-Rohan, or Men-or-Numenor. On the other hand ALL the
Hobbit and Elves stories were lumped together. I know that the elves,
at least, had sub-categories, but I thought the Men category could
have held Rohan, Numenor, Gondor categories as well, and reduced the
number of main categories. Either that, or have Elves, then
Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, etc categories. The hobbits could
have been split up too, I'm sure, though I'm not familiar enough with
them to suggest other categories.

I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor category?)

Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits,
Men, Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or
Numenor.

Larian

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:12 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.

>I know Ainae said only three discussions at a time, but I added more than

that to the database so they were up there...a couple of them are short
anyway, and won't require much discussion, I don't think.

Well, as long as my brain doesn't scramble, and my other bits of life come
to a halt, we should be okay. I just also don't want topics to get lost in
the shuffle.

Oh, and let's remember to edit our subject lines for easier identification.
(I thought of that just after I sent my last reply). This one works because
it identifies the topic and Post-Mortem. But the ones that are just replies
from my original post should be edited. I'll be getting back to them soon.

>I realize we had to make decisions regarding categories, but I thought it

put a few types of stories at a disadvantage, because they had a lot more
competition. For instance, there was a Men category, a Rohan category, and
a Numenor category. A lot of stories could have fit into Men-or-Rohan, or
Men-or-Numenor. On the other hand ALL the Hobbit and Elves stories were
lumped together. I know that the elves, at least, had sub-categories, but I
thought the Men category could have held Rohan, Numenor, Gondor categories
as well, and reduced the number of main categories. Either that, or have
Elves, then Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, etc categories. The hobbits
could have been split up too, I'm sure, though I'm not familiar enough with
them to suggest other categories.

>I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend on

the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan got a bit
more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor category?)

Gondor was a surprise. Who knew it would, have 27 stories?! That's the
thing. The main categories did just sort of happen. Only Mystery and Orcs
were added from those shadow975 and I brainstormed before starting this
whole rigamaroll. ;-) So, this opens up an even bigger can of worms.
Categorization may need a complete overhaul.

>Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be

troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits, Men,
Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or Numenor.

First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:

3 topics:
Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit their
intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is a genuine
interest breakup.

Genres, because this is more traditional. Drama, Romance, Humor, etc.
These are also valid. I don't read Romances for instances. Not even Elf
romances.

Time/Books, because like Trek being devided into series, this is a valid
division in the Middle-Earth fandom. And a good fallback if you can't
decide where else to put a story. You can almost always set one in time.

The categories within the topics:
Men, Elves, Hobbits, were obvious choices. Orc was a surprise but it
actually turned out well. Why Rohan and Numenor? Because I thought there
were enough Rohan and Numenor stories out there to make them worthwhile. I
really had no idea Gondor would turn out like it did. So Gondor is
definitely a cadidate for a category of its own. And there was a thought
about a Villains category, too, so that other baddies besides Orcs could
have their spot.

Genres are still pretty self-explantory.

As are Time/Books.

But what about the number? Is it better or worse to have more or less
categories? Ah, that is a big debate still at ASC. Some find a category
with more than 50 stories too intimidating. While others find the explosion
in number of categories ridiculous and wiping out all sense in having awards
to begin with. (What is special about a Best___ Award, when there are 600
Best ___ Awards?)

ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

1. Categorization shall be based on the headers that the
Author provides. The Awards Coordinator may also chose
to catagorize works by other criteria.
2. The lower bound on the categories this year shall require
that all categories contain at least 8 works by at least
2 different authors.
A. The Coordinator will combine categories that are too
small to qualify under the "8x2" rule, with the goal
of fostering meaningful competition between similar
types of works.
B. Any category with 50 or more stories in it will prompt
the coordinator or their designates to look for a division

We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower bound,
though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3 authors
for authors.

Let the debate at MEFA begin....

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

(trying to be succinct) I agree with the below. to start with some
basics and expand once the numbers reach a max, keeping the smaller
ones above a minimum. I understand and agree (to a point) with the
thought that two many categories can diminish the award, but this is
also supposed to be fun, and it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine
or twelve people walk away with all the goodies.

***pasted below***
ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

1. Categorization shall be based on the headers that the
Author provides. The Awards Coordinator may also chose
to catagorize works by other criteria.
2. The lower bound on the categories this year shall require
that all categories contain at least 8 works by at least
2 different authors.
A. The Coordinator will combine categories that are too
small to qualify under the "8x2" rule, with the goal
of fostering meaningful competition between similar
types of works.
B. Any category with 50 or more stories in it will prompt
the coordinator or their designates to look for a division

We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower
bound,though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at
least 3 authorsfor authors.

Let the debate at MEFA begin....
**end paste**

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the

lower bound,

> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3

authors

> for authors.
>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>

Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been
here for a while...

CC

-----Original Message-----
From: zafiro_v [mailto:zafiro_v@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:35 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the

lower bound,

> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3

authors

> for authors.
>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>

Is there a statistic of how many stories were there per category?
Sorry if I am asking something everyone knows but I have not been here for a
while...

CC

Yes. Can I call on my sister-in-obsessive-compulsivenes, Larian, to provide
them? I am quite busy at this time in that this is "Drop Dead Week" for our
Christmas Pageant at church. Rehearsals every evening of the week. And I
onlly had 5 hours of sleep last night thanks to one of my cats becoming
overly aggressive toward another of them.

Thanks, if you would, Larian.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
> on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
> got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor
> category?)

Heya, this fan of Gondorians supports this question ;-)
Why not a Gondorian category if there is a Rohirrim one?

>
> Since the number of main categories (at least in elves) could be
> troublesome, my suggestion is stick to the main races, Elves, Hobbits,
> Men, Dwarves, Orcs, etc. and not set out special ones like Rohan or
> Numenor.

I understood, Ainaechoiriel wanted as many awards as possible,
other wise I would not understand poetry, drabbles, WIP,
Rohan, Drama etc.

Thus I support a category Gondor.

Drama or Horror, on the other hand, are for me
misleading categories.
I missed one of my favourite Men-LoTR stories
because it was in the category Drama,
and in Horror I read more Silmarillion stories
than Horror stories.

Thus I support a categorization along the main races
and make under categories for Gondor, Rohan,
Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.

I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a under category
for Men, Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line
more along Second age, Early Third Age, Pre-War-of-the-Ring,
War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.

Thus we would have for example
"Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
"Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
If the subcategories have not enough stories
they would be subsumed into one category higher.

Best wishes Elanor

> Thus I support a categorization along the main races
> and make under categories for Gondor, Rohan,
> Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.
>
> I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a
> under category
> for Men, Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line
> more along Second age, Early Third Age,
> Pre-War-of-the-Ring,
> War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.
>
> Thus we would have for example
> "Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
> "Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
> If the subcategories have not enough stories
> they would be subsumed into one category higher.
>

I think this is a very good idea.

CC

=====
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--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:
>
> 3 topics:
> Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit their
> intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is a genuine
> interest breakup.

I agree, natural categories for races. It's the places I'm wondering about.

>
> Genres, because this is more traditional. Drama, Romance, Humor, etc.
> These are also valid. I don't read Romances for instances. Not even Elf
> romances.

Again, total agreement from me here.

>
> Time/Books, because like Trek being devided into series, this is a valid
> division in the Middle-Earth fandom. And a good fallback if you can't
> decide where else to put a story. You can almost always set one in time.

More agreement.

>
> The categories within the topics:
> Men, Elves, Hobbits, were obvious choices. Orc was a surprise but it
> actually turned out well. Why Rohan and Numenor? Because I thought there
> were enough Rohan and Numenor stories out there to make them worthwhile. I
> really had no idea Gondor would turn out like it did. So Gondor is
> definitely a cadidate for a category of its own. And there was a thought
> about a Villains category, too, so that other baddies besides Orcs could
> have their spot.

I guess my point is that if Rohan and Numenor were singled out, why not
Lothlorien? Or The Shire? Or Rivendell? Etc... If you choose one place, it
doesn't seem fair not to choose others, to at least see if they're viable
categories. (I know Romance had a Rivendell category, so that could have been
broken out into a place and other stories in the elves could have too, I'm
sure)

>
> Genres are still pretty self-explantory.
>
> As are Time/Books.
>
> But what about the number? Is it better or worse to have more or less
> categories? Ah, that is a big debate still at ASC. Some find a category
> with more than 50 stories too intimidating. While others find the explosion
> in number of categories ridiculous and wiping out all sense in having awards
> to begin with. (What is special about a Best___ Award, when there are 600
> Best ___ Awards?)

I agree too, too many categories dilutes the purpose, and in actuality, that's
what it felt like when Rohan and Numenor were accorded special categories,
though they could have easily stayed in Men. I mean, it was tough to get
Numenor viable as it was, right?

Fifty stories feels about right to me for a top limit.

>
> ASC has come up with a compromise. This is from the ASC Awards FAQ:

I snipped here because those all looked logical to me...it cuts down on the
number of stories per category, without getting ridiculous.

>
> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower bound,
> though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at least 3 authors
> for authors.

Now that we have a better idea of the spread we might get, maybe we should
raise that to 7x2 stories and (left at) 3 for authors.

>
> Let the debate at MEFA begin....
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/larian
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com
Archive addy archive@ofelvesandmen.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sulriel [mailto:Sulriel@htcomp.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:34 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.

>(trying to be succinct) I agree with the below. to start with some basics

and expand once the numbers reach a max, keeping the smaller ones above a
minimum. I understand and agree (to a point) with the thought that two many
categories can diminish the award, but this is also supposed to be fun, and
it isn't fun for 500 people to see nine or twelve people walk away with all
the goodies.

Agreed, but we had way more than 12 winners as it was, didn't we? But this
compromise has worked for ASC. I havent' seen this particular debate there
for a year or so.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:57 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing for fairer
distribution.

> I understand that the categories sort of happened, and it does depend
> on the number of stories actually nominated, if just felt like Rohan
> got a bit more emphasis. (I mean, Rohan, why not a Gondor
> category?)

>Heya, this fan of Gondorians supports this question ;-) Why not a Gondorian

category if there is a Rohirrim one?

As I said before, we had no idea there would be 27 Gondor stories (and
that's just in Men!) I thought there would be more Rohan and Numenor
stories. As for Elves, I just didn't think there would be enough say,
Mirkwood or Rivendell stories to make a category. In hindsight...

>I understood, Ainaechoiriel wanted as many awards as possible, other wise I

would not understand poetry, drabbles, WIP, Rohan, Drama etc.

>Thus I support a category Gondor.

>Drama or Horror, on the other hand, are for me misleading categories.

Why? There are Drama movies and horror movies. Friday the 13th would not be
in the same category as The Pianist.

>I missed one of my favourite Men-LoTR stories because it was in the

category Drama, and in Horror I read more Silmarillion stories than Horror
stories.

Again, having the authors pick their category will make this easier. Then
an author can decide if their scary Silm story should be in Horror or The
Silm.

>Thus I support a categorization along the main races and make under

categories for Gondor, Rohan, Sindar, Noldor, Moriquendi etc.

I doubt there would be enough out there for a Moriquendi category. As for
Sindar and Noldor, possible, but they get mixed together an awful lot.

>I would also make Silmarillion, LoTR or Hobbit a under category for Men,

Hobbits, Orcs etc. in view of the Time Line more along Second age, Early
Third Age, Pre-War-of-the-Ring, War-of-the-Ring, Forth Age, Multi-Age etc.

Again, I do think it's good and makes sense to have the Time/Books
categories there for their own sakes and also as backups. Some stories are
easy to categorize. Others are not. So putting it in Silm because it's set
in the Second Age might be a good thing. As it was, there were some Second
Age subcategories and such other there when we could find a group of five or
more to fit them.

>Thus we would have for example

"Elves, Second Age, Noldor"
"Elves, Forth Age, Moriquendi"
If the subcategories have not enough stories they would be subsumed into one
category higher.
I'm all for only delinneating main categories and having suggestions for
subcategories. Because we won't know what we have until all the
Nominations are in.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Larian Elensar [mailto:larian_elensar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:51 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Post Mortem topic - Recategorizing



--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> First, let's look at the rationale behind what we presently have:
>
> 3 topics:
> Races and Places, because in this fandom many people do actually limit
> their intake of stories by Elves stories, or Hobbits stories. This is
> a genuine interest breakup.

>I agree, natural categories for races. It's the places I'm wondering about.

See below.

>I guess my point is that if Rohan and Numenor were singled out, why not

Lothlorien? Or The Shire? Or Rivendell? Etc... If you choose one place, it
doesn't seem fair not to choose others, to at least see if they're viable
categories. (I know Romance had a Rivendell category, so that could have
been broken out into a place and other stories in the elves could have too,
I'm
sure)

It wasn't about fair or unfair. It was more of a guess at what was out
during a brainstorming session over IM with Shadow975. Why her? She was
there and she agreed to help.

BTW: If you want to catch me on IM, I'm Ainaechoiriel. Just be sure to
identify yourself right away. I get a little spooked by IMs from strangers.
In fact, the first thing I usually say to strangers who IM me is: Identify
yourself. So just IM me and say "Hi, I'm so and so from the MEFAs" and I
won't be spooked.

>I agree too, too many categories dilutes the purpose, and in actuality,

that's what it felt like when Rohan and Numenor were accorded special
categories, though they could have easily stayed in Men. I mean, it was
tough to get Numenor viable as it was, right?

See above, just a arbitrary brainstorm of what might be out there. Mystery
and Orcs were added by an as yet not codified process before Nomination
Season began. No new categoreis were added once Nomination Season began. I
think that is a good rule to keep. Once Nomination Season starts, main
categories are set.

But we should probably come up with a precedure for adding or changing
categories.

>Fifty stories feels about right to me for a top limit.

It works at ASC. Any other comments on the limit of 50?

>
>I snipped here because those all looked logical to me...it cuts down on the

number of stories per category, without getting ridiculous.

That's why it seems to have kept the peace at ASC.

> We can choose to go a similar route. We do presently have the lower
> bound, though ours is slightly different: 5 X 2 for stories and at
> least 3 authors for authors.

>Now that we have a better idea of the spread we might get, maybe we should

raise that to 7x2 stories and (left at) 3 for authors.

Put that up as a new topic and let's see if there are other suggestions or
comments on that number. I'm okay with 7. Or 8. I'm, believe it or not,
rather indecisive. ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com