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Hi again,

<snip>

> >I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
> favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was

categorized as

> Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR.

I think Jodancingtree had a hard time finding where her story "The
Queen's Orc" was placed as well. And I think Lindelea was unsure
whether Thundera's "The Ring Goes South" (or something like that).
This might have a simple solution. We have on the website a listing of
nominations by category. Would it be feasible to have a table of
nominations sorted by title, that also listed the category (and
subcategory where applicable)? That way, if someone is unsure if a
story has been nominated or where it is nominated, they could take a
quick look at the table.

<snip>

> >I cannot see why it is not possible to vote over a length of time

and then

> let the counters work for two weeks in the end _after_ the voting.

<further snippage>

> This is more a decision for Staff next year than the post-mortem as

it

> doesn't really affect how the awards are run. It's more just

logistics. I'm

> not against it. But then I'm also somewhat obsessive/compulsive and
> impatient. I'd be counting votes from day one and still worrying

about the

> other counters getting their totals in on time.....
>

Another thing to consider: some people (like me) work well with
deadlines. I know a lot of people said they didn't use reading season
well. If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
*more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much close
at once.

<snip>

> >and count _after_ the voting season for about two weeks (and as

long as is

> needed).
>
> No on the as long as needed.

Just to weigh in - I agree with Ainae here. See my above comment about
deadlines - this applies to the staff as well. I'm sure there are some
people counting votes who work better knowing they have a deadline.

One further comment - there's been a lot of talk about categorization.
I know the categories make sense, and I don't want to have just one
class (Races, Source Material, or Genre). But I think most stories can
be categorized as one race *and* one source *and* one genre. We might
need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
each in the three divisions I mentioned above.

To give an example: Thundera's "A Fool's Hope". (This is just the
first story that jumps to mind.) This is a scene between two elves, so
it could fit there. It is a drama piece, so it could go there as well.
And it is clearly LotR, where it was categorized. So it would be
eligible in each of these three categories.

With this year's awards, I saw some what I consider artificial
differences in the categories. For example, there was Romance, but
there was also Silmarillion/Romance and (I think?) Elves/Romance.
There was Silmarillion, but then also (I think?) Elves/Silmarillion.
So the Silmarillion winners do not necessarily represent the best
Silmarillion-centric stories nominated - they did not compete with
stories in Elves/Silmarillion.

If we had multiple categories it would also decrease the pressure to
make categories viable. Say a story is nominated in Drama/Incomplete,
Hobbit/Incomplete, and Men/Incomplete. Drama/Incomplete and Men/
Incomplete are viable, but Hobbit/Incomplete is not. But you would not
have to find a new home for all the stories in Hobbit/Incomplete -
just let them run in the other categories they are in.

I recognize there are some logistical questions to consider, and it
probably needs more discussion on my part. But I wanted to know your
general feeling. Would you be willing to consider this? I think it
would help a lot, but it's a pretty considerable change.

Marta

Still have a few minutes

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:10 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems



Hi again,

<snip>

> >I found out after voting season that I didn't comment on one of my
> favourite stories "Father and sons" by Dwim because it was

categorized as

> Drama and for my mind it belonged to Men or LoTR.

>I think Jodancingtree had a hard time finding where her story "The Queen's

Orc" was placed as well. And I think Lindelea was unsure whether Thundera's
"The Ring Goes South" (or something like that).
This might have a simple solution. We have on the website a listing of
nominations by category. Would it be feasible to have a table of nominations
sorted by title, that also listed the category (and subcategory where
applicable)? That way, if someone is unsure if a story has been nominated or
where it is nominated, they could take a quick look at the table.

Since authors will (most likely) categorize their own stuff, it won't be a
problem for authos, but it is possible that I could do that.

>Another thing to consider: some people (like me) work well with

deadlines. I know a lot of people said they didn't use reading season
well. If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
*more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much close
at once.

That's where I am. Voting Season and the following counting of votes
actually sucked up more of my life than any other part of these Awards. And
without some very serious juggling, I would have had overdrafts. I really,
really put things on hold for this. I'm happy to do it, but I don't want to
make it any harder on myself. I wouldn't go to bed without counting all the
Elves votes for the night.

>> No on the as long as needed.

>Just to weigh in - I agree with Ainae here. See my above comment about

deadlines - this applies to the staff as well. I'm sure there are some
people counting votes who work better knowing they have a deadline.

That one won't change.

>One further comment - there's been a lot of talk about categorization.

I know the categories make sense, and I don't want to have just one
class (Races, Source Material, or Genre). But I think most stories can
be categorized as one race *and* one source *and* one genre. We might
need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
each in the three divisions I mentioned above.

Yes, they can often fit in two or three categories. But no, they will not
run in more than one. The author (most likely--still haven't seen anyone
against that one) will decide which one category they want their story in.
It just wouldn't be anywhere near fair for the same story to win three
categories, and it would make it just as hard to comment on that story three
times as it is to comment on an author three times.

>To give an example: Thundera's "A Fool's Hope". (This is just the

first story that jumps to mind.) This is a scene between two elves, so
it could fit there. It is a drama piece, so it could go there as well.
And it is clearly LotR, where it was categorized. So it would be
eligible in each of these three categories.

Elligible for, yes, but finally landing in three, no.

>With this year's awards, I saw some what I consider artificial

differences in the categories. For example, there was Romance, but
there was also Silmarillion/Romance and (I think?) Elves/Romance.
There was Silmarillion, but then also (I think?) Elves/Silmarillion.
So the Silmarillion winners do not necessarily represent the best
Silmarillion-centric stories nominated - they did not compete with
stories in Elves/Silmarillion.

That would all be fixed by authors choosing their categories. Subcategories
were just considered by grouping like stories togther within the main
categories. Where we could find them. They are not even listed in the FAQ.
Even if authors choose their category, they will likely have to suggest a
subcategory or two, or the staff will still end up putting them in
subcategories, especially if we go with the 50 stories per category rule
from ASC.

>If we had multiple categories it would also decrease the pressure to

make categories viable. Say a story is nominated in Drama/Incomplete,
Hobbit/Incomplete, and Men/Incomplete. Drama/Incomplete and Men/
Incomplete are viable, but Hobbit/Incomplete is not. But you would not
have to find a new home for all the stories in Hobbit/Incomplete -
just let them run in the other categories they are in.

They could simply be in the other category they are elligible for. But
those doing the categorizing this year may not have read the story. They
wouldn't know if that Hobbit/Incomplete was dramatic or humorous. If
authors categorize their own stuff, that point is moot.

>I recognize there are some logistical questions to consider, and it

probably needs more discussion on my part. But I wanted to know your
general feeling. Would you be willing to consider this? I think it
would help a lot, but it's a pretty considerable change.

Thanks for the suggestion but no. No one complete story will ever win more
than one award. If any one complete story is in more than one category,
that can't be guaranteed. Having authors categorize will take much of the
problem out of this one.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

> Still have a few minutes
>

I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>

<snip>

> Would it be feasible to have a table of nominations
> sorted by title, that also listed the category (and subcategory

where

> applicable)?

<snip>

> Since authors will (most likely) categorize their own stuff, it

won't be a

> problem for authos, but it is possible that I could do that.
>

This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
available in the files section during reading season.

<snip>

> If we let them post any time (up to a point), with no voting of
> specific categories at certain times, I think it would probably be
> *more* stressful for us deadline-oriented people to have so much

close

> at once.
>
> That's where I am.

Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading season
up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
announce the results.

>Voting Season and the following counting of votes
> actually sucked up more of my life than any other part of these

Awards.

Ainae, I know I've said it before, but thank you. Thank you, all the
vote coutners, categorizers, and everyone else. But especially thanks
to Ainae. I was a Mithrils judge and I know how much time that took.
So I do have *some* idea of how tough it was for you - and I know you
did much more than I did as a judge. So hear, hear! for Ainae & Co.

<snip>

> We might
> need to consider letting a story run in up to three categories - one
> each in the three divisions I mentioned above.
>
> Yes, they can often fit in two or three categories. But no, they

will not

> run in more than one. The author (most likely--still haven't seen

anyone

> against that one) will decide which one category they want their

story in.


Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of my
suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for veto
by you.

One suggestion - if the authors are choosing the categories, could we
have them choose the subcategories as well? I think this year there
were some stories that would fit a certain subcategory but the
categorizers just didn't know it. I think if we had some predefined
subcategories and asked the authors to note if they wanted their story
to run in a subcategory, it would make things a lot more consisten.

> It just wouldn't be anywhere near fair for the same story to win

three

> categories, and it would make it just as hard to comment on that

story three

> times as it is to comment on an author three times.
>

Both of these are part of the logistical issues I had thought of, but
that I didn't want to write out if you weren't interested in the idea.
I think the multiple cateogires idea could work, but after seeing your
reply, I don't think it's necessary. You've answered all the issues I
had.

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:06 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems

>I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about

Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>

Rehearsals are fun. When the chicken was supposed to crow, we had an
explosion. When we needed and explosions, we had a chicken. And the Roman
soldiers were wearing Poodle skirts. Yes, Poodle skirts.

Sigh, but only on the first day. There were other silly things the next
day. Tomorrow is a dress rehearsal and the last day for silliness.

>This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots

available in the files section during reading season.

These aren't really FAQ things. So you guys may have to remind me when the
time comes. Relying on my memory is not a wise thing.

>Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading season

up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
announce the results.

Does any other Awards program out there do this? Do the Oscars, Emmies, or
Grammies? No, I don't think so.

>Ainae, I know I've said it before, but thank you. Thank you, all the

vote coutners, categorizers, and everyone else. But especially thanks
to Ainae. I was a Mithrils judge and I know how much time that took.
So I do have *some* idea of how tough it was for you - and I know you
did much more than I did as a judge. So hear, hear! for Ainae & Co.

Thanks. I actually would appreciate delegating some more this next year.
Six months is what this took. I'm supposed to be a writer, too....

>Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will

satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of my
suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for veto
by you.

So does anyone object to having authors categorize? I haven't seen any. Do
we call this one final or do we give it more time?

>One suggestion - if the authors are choosing the categories, could we

have them choose the subcategories as well? I think this year there
were some stories that would fit a certain subcategory but the
categorizers just didn't know it. I think if we had some predefined
subcategories and asked the authors to note if they wanted their story
to run in a subcategory, it would make things a lot more consisten.

I'm thinking it will work like this:

When asking for permission, we give the author a mulitple chose of all the
categories. They suggest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. They give a few
suggestions for subcategories. Because yes, they do know their stories
best.

>Both of these are part of the logistical issues I had thought of, but

that I didn't want to write out if you weren't interested in the idea.
I think the multiple cateogires idea could work, but after seeing your
reply, I don't think it's necessary. You've answered all the issues I
had.

Great. I'm thinking eventually we will have an Awards committee rather than
just myself that helps run the post-mortem and such. It may not be this
next year, but maybe the next after that. We just have to be sure that we
know what the MEFAs are and what needs to always remain.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

>
> >I'm a pianist and an organist. Believe me, I understand about
> Christmas choir schedules. Reply to this whenever you have time; I
> have exams I should be studying for, anyway. <wgs>
>
> Rehearsals are fun. When the chicken was supposed to crow, we had

an

> explosion. When we needed and explosions, we had a chicken. And the

Roman

> soldiers were wearing Poodle skirts. Yes, Poodle skirts.
>

Pshaw, that's nothing. At last year's dress rehearsal we had four
sheep (one of those in power ranger costume), three wise men, two
shepherds, and a spaceman and a cowboy who were supposed to be
shepherds (and were by opening night. But there costumes were being
mended, and since everyone else were in costume, they insisted on
wearing their costumes - from Halloween).

> >This would really help me, especially if you also had the ballots
> available in the files section during reading season.
>
> These aren't really FAQ things. So you guys may have to remind me

when the

> time comes. Relying on my memory is not a wise thing.
>

Not that mine's any better, but I'll try to remember to remind you.

> >Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could split reading

season

> up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks

or

> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the votes, then you
> announce the results.
>
> Does any other Awards program out there do this? Do the Oscars,

Emmies, or

> Grammies? No, I don't think so.
>

It was only a suggestion. I was just trying to think of ways to help
people make better use of reading day. But it's probably not
necessary.

<snip>

> >Point taken. And having authors categorize their own stories will
> satisfy me on a lot of the points I raised below. This (like all of

my

> suggestions) is just an idea I had, and so are completely up for

veto

> by you.
>
> So does anyone object to having authors categorize? I haven't seen

any. Do

> we call this one final or do we give it more time?
>

I say give it a little time. 48 hours, maybe? I remember back before
nomination season, there was some issue or other that people didn't
think we gave enough discussion time, for people on the other side of
the world who were asleep while we Americans were doing all the
discussing.

<snip>

> When asking for permission, we give the author a mulitple chose of

all the

> categories. They suggest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice. They give a few
> suggestions for subcategories. Because yes, they do know their

stories

> best.
>

Yes. But I think we need a list of suggested subcategories as well.

Btw, while I'm thinking about it - can we add "novel" to the required
subcategories (just like poetry and drabble were in their own
subcategory)? I was thinking about this the other day, and longer
works (say, over 40,000 words) really shouldn't compete with shorter
ones. They have more time to draw a readership and there's more to
comment on.

<snip>

> I'm thinking eventually we will have an Awards committee rather than
> just myself that helps run the post-mortem and such. It may not be

this

> next year, but maybe the next after that.

That's probably a good idea. Give you some backup and some people to
hash out ideas with.

Not that I'm volunteering, of course. ;-)

Marta

--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---

> Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could
> split reading season
> up? Have a month reading season for races & places,
> then two weeks or
> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for
> Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third
> month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the
> end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the
> votes, then you
> announce the results.

I really like this suggestion for two reasons; 1) I
did not have time to vote this year as all my
availible time during the voting season went to trying
to keep up with counting (thus even the story comments
I had written earlier did not get sent) and 2) It
gives more clear time usage. However, I know that
Aenae has already vetoed this, so I have another
suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
Have all the catogories open from the start of the
reading season to mid October. THen close the vote
and count it. This has the advantage that the
counting is not done at the same time as the voting
(also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging)
and allows more time to vote and has less confusion
about dstes.

Nerwen



___________________________________________________________
Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality.
Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k

> suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
> Have all the catogories open from the start of the
> reading season to mid October. THen close the vote
> and count it. This has the advantage that the
> counting is not done at the same time as the voting
> (also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging)
> and allows more time to vote and has less confusion
> about dstes.
>
> Nerwen

Very good, I would support this:
a long time for reading and voting
and a separate time afterwards for counting.

Though Ainaechoiriel tried to explain why it is better
to count during the voting time I only understood,
that it was organized like that and fixed with the counters.

But if the counters know beforehand
when the all-categories-counting is scheduled
they can opt in or out
according their real life schedule.
Moreover, I think one would get more volunteers
for a time after voting season.

Best wishes Elanor

I'm not opening Voting Season up for three or more months. I have given
plenty of options for those who were busy during voting season (not
including counting). Voting early was something I touted from the start and
still advise everyone to do. And I also told people how to have their
e-mail client deliver the message on an assigned date. Some even sent me
their votes and had me post them by proxy.

There is already a poll on whether we will just have one block during voting
season or split voting season up as it was this year. The length of voting
season may be changed as well (though it was voted on before), but there is
a limit to it. 3 months is way over that limit. Most people (non-lurkers)
have wanted it to be shorter. We can't have it both ways anyway.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com





-----Original Message-----
From: Nerwen Calaelen [mailto:nerwen_calaelen@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 7:04 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems


--- Marta <MartaL0712@netscape.net> wrote:

---

> Here's another thing to consider. Maybe we could
> split reading season
> up? Have a month reading season for races & places, then two weeks or
> whatever of voting. Then another month to read for Source Material,
> and another voting season for it. And then a third month to read for
> Genre, and a third voting season for *that*, at the end of which you
> have two or three weeks to count and recount the
> votes, then you
> announce the results.

I really like this suggestion for two reasons; 1) I did not have time to
vote this year as all my availible time during the voting season went to
trying to keep up with counting (thus even the story comments I had written
earlier did not get sent) and 2) It gives more clear time usage. However,
I know that Aenae has already vetoed this, so I have another suggestion -
combine the reading and voting seasons.
Have all the catogories open from the start of the reading season to mid
October. THen close the vote and count it. This has the advantage that the
counting is not done at the same time as the voting (also minimuising the
opportunities for vote rigging) and allows more time to vote and has less
confusion about dstes.

Nerwen



___________________________________________________________
Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail
to make your dream a reality.
Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k




Yahoo! Groups Links

As already said, I don't like it. And if we have a computerized counting
process, the counting of the votes won't be a factor anyway. We'd only need
administratoris to make sure there are no discrepancies by the computer.
Counters would only count to fix discrepancies.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



-----Original Message-----
From: elanor of aquitania [mailto:elanor@codacode.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:29 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [MEFAwards] Re: Post Mortem topic - Marta's thoughts on
categorization problems

> suggestion - combine the reading and voting seasons.
> Have all the catogories open from the start of the reading season to
> mid October. THen close the vote and count it. This has the
> advantage that the counting is not done at the same time as the voting
> (also minimuising the opportunities for vote rigging) and allows more
> time to vote and has less confusion about dstes.
>
> Nerwen

Very good, I would support this:
a long time for reading and voting
and a separate time afterwards for counting.

Though Ainaechoiriel tried to explain why it is better to count during the
voting time I only understood, that it was organized like that and fixed
with the counters.

But if the counters know beforehand
when the all-categories-counting is scheduled they can opt in or out
according their real life schedule.
Moreover, I think one would get more volunteers for a time after voting
season.

Best wishes Elanor




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