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I am working on the nominations spreadsheet. I've copied over all the
authors with their categories and subcategories and eliminated all the
duplicates. Then I took a look.

It seemed a little silly to be voting for/commenting on the same author
twice in say the Elves category just because the author's two stories were
in two different subcategories, such as Pre-WOTR and Post-WOTR.

On the other hand, it isn't silly to be voting for/commenting on the same
author twice when those two stories were a long story and a drabble. Or a
short story and a poem.

So I think we can divide on form only and toss out all the other
subcategories.

So that leaves these two as subcategories for author categories:
Drabble
Poetry

While long stories and short stories do pose different challenges, they are
still, essentially, the same form. Besides, we haven't differentiated these
in the story categories, so we can't really differentiate them here. In any
case, they are not nearly so different as "poetry" is to "story". "Drabble"
is different because it is so limitted. Not just anyone can tell a whole
story in only 100 words.

But there is still one questionable form: vignette.

Vignettes are essentially a short story taking the place in only one scene.
But it's still a short story. Unlike a drabble, it's not restricted to a
certain number of words. You could have a 1-page vignette or a 3-page
vignette.

So, is a vignette so different in form from a regular story? Should it be a
subcategory as drabble and poetry? Or should it stay in the main category
with the rest of the stories?

Also, note we had an essay this year. Unfortunately, we still don't have
enough for a viable category (for authors it only takes three authors for a
category to be viable). So vignette, really is the only question.

As things stand, all main categories are viable as Author categories. As
are all Drabble and Poetry subcategories for each of those categories that
had those subcategories in the story nominations. (Hobbits/Drabble just
barely squeaks by with 3 authors).

So, should there be a vignette subcategory in the Author awards? The thing
to keep in mind is this: Does it take the same talents/skills to write a
vignette as it does to write a short or long story? That's where the
difference is for poems and drabbles. It needs to be there for vignettes IF
vignette is to be a subcategory. Discuss please

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> So, should there be a vignette subcategory in the Author awards? The thing
> to keep in mind is this: Does it take the same talents/skills to write a
> vignette as it does to write a short or long story? That's where the
> difference is for poems and drabbles. It needs to be there for vignettes IF
> vignette is to be a subcategory. Discuss please

To me, a vignette is basically the same as a short story, so I wouldn't seen
the need for a special sub-category...




=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
>
> So I think we can divide on form only and toss out all the other
> subcategories.
>
> So that leaves these two as subcategories for author categories:
> Drabble
> Poetry
>
> While long stories and short stories do pose different challenges,

they are

> still, essentially, the same form. Besides, we haven't

differentiated these

> in the story categories, so we can't really differentiate them

here.
In any

> case, they are not nearly so different as "poetry" is

to "story". "Drabble"

> is different because it is so limitted. Not just anyone can tell

a whole

> story in only 100 words.

I think it is a shame that short stories and long stories aren't
divided I can quite see we can't do it now. I'd suggest it as
something to think about for next year though. To me a short story
is a very distinct artform and to judge it against long 'stories'
which may well be novels or novellas is difficult. YMMV, of course.

>
> But there is still one questionable form: vignette.
>
> Vignettes are essentially a short story taking the place in only

one scene.

> But it's still a short story. Unlike a drabble, it's not

restricted to a

> certain number of words. You could have a 1-page vignette or a 3-

page

> vignette.

Whe we tried to find a definition of vignette over at HASA in the
Patterns in Prose forum no one simple definition could be found.
Most mentioned completeness and plot not being necessary. None
actually specified that it was one scene, IIRC. Of course, as it is
your comp. you can choose that definition.

Either way I think I would vote for vignettes being a separate
category if it viable and feasible.

Avon

I *knew* I should have checked my computers before I left for work.
(My remote software is telling me my home computer is offline....)

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "avonaus" <avonaus@y...> wrote:

> I think it is a shame that short stories and long stories aren't
> divided I can quite see we can't do it now. I'd suggest it as
> something to think about for next year though. To me a short story
> is a very distinct artform and to judge it against long 'stories'
> which may well be novels or novellas is difficult. YMMV, of course.

Well, I think it takes the same talent and skills to write a long
story or a short story. Beginnings, middles, ends, pacing, plot,
characterization, etc. All those go into both. You can't say the
same thing about a drabble. There's no time for pacing. The
beginning and end are so close together that there really is no
middle. There is characterization, but generally of only one
character.

Also, if we did divide short and long, we'd have to through a whole
lot of rigamorole (Forgot how to spell that) to decided the limits
for long stories and short. How many chapters connotes a long story
as opposed to an average-length story? What is an average length
story? How many words is the upward limit of a short story? We had
this discussion a few years ago at ASC. I can't remember all the
breakdowns but someone pointed out what the professional publishers
use. I think novel was at 70,000. Where does that put my 170,000
word story (or 300,000 word story if you go by ff.net's count).
Where would that put LOTR? My short stories are generally too long
for what the publishing world calls a short story. They say 25,000
words and I've got 30,000. Does that make my story a novella? Not if
you ask me. I call my 270-pagers novellas. Publishers would call
them novels. And my longer ones (3 or 4) would be giant novels or
epic, I suppose. The one I asked about was simply called "too long
to even be considered" by the editor for Star Trek books at
PocketBooks.

I got a bit confused over at the Mithrils this year because they had
categories for vignettes and long stories, I believe, but not a
specific length category for anything in between. Those stories, I
were told could fit into one of the other categories like Drama and
such.

We'd have to decide those things. At ASC, we decided it wasn't worth
the bother.

Really, I think it is just too much of a bother *especially* if you
are not nominating your own story. Ff.net is not an accurate source
for word count. Neither is HASA because they count all the words,
even the author's notes, title, etc., not just the body of the story.

And if we did differentiate, it would, in essence, double every
category and subcategory. And bring us into sub-subcategory land,
which I'd like to avoid. Or it would negate all the other
interesting subcategories and leave us only with Elves/*length* and
Drama/*length*

> > But there is still one questionable form: vignette.
> >
> > Vignettes are essentially a short story taking the place in only
> one scene.
> > But it's still a short story. Unlike a drabble, it's not
> restricted to a
> > certain number of words. You could have a 1-page vignette or a 3-
> page
> > vignette.
>
> Whe we tried to find a definition of vignette over at HASA in the
> Patterns in Prose forum no one simple definition could be found.
> Most mentioned completeness and plot not being necessary. None
> actually specified that it was one scene, IIRC. Of course, as it
is
> your comp. you can choose that definition.

I went searching on the internet and found that vignette can actually
be applied to art! Surprise, surprise. But Merriam-Webster's site
did have this:

3 a : a short descriptive literary sketch b : a brief incident or
scene (as in a play or movie)

A brief incident or scene. I've always heard that a vignette is just
one scene. That has been my non-definitive (as in, not from a
dictionary) understanding. Now I have this definitive answer: a
brief incident or scene, and I think it meshes fairly well. A short
descriptive literary sketch would not seem to imply two or more
scenes to me. Neither would "*a* brief incident or scene", and it
gets less brief the more scenes we put in.

So for the purposes of these awards, we will hold to vignette being a
one-scene story, a brief incident or scene.

> Either way I think I would vote for vignettes being a separate
> category if it viable and feasible.

If it is decided to be a subcategory, it will be viable. Remember
that we aren't discussing story categories here. The ones posted are
the ones that are there. Some main categories do have viable
vignette subcategories. Elves/vignette, for instance, was recently
rescued from inviabiability due to one author not responding with
approval in time.

This are the author categories and I think the subcategories should
be broken down by that talent/skill side of things:

What does it take to write a successful story?
What does it take to write a successful drabble?
What does it take to write a successful poem?

I think the answers to these are different. It takes something
different to write a drabble than a story (long or short). I didn't
think I could do it until recently when Dwim encouraged me to try. I
*know* it takes something different to write a poem. Not everyone
that can write a story can write a poem, and vice versa, though some
can do both.

So what does it take to write a successful vignette? And is that
different from what it takes to write a successful story? (And if we
break story down into long and short, I don't think what it takes to
write each successfully will differ all that much.)

--Ainaechoiriel
posting from the web

>
>This are the author categories and I think the subcategories should
>be broken down by that talent/skill side of things:
>
>What does it take to write a successful story?
>What does it take to write a successful drabble?
>What does it take to write a successful poem?
>
>I think the answers to these are different. It takes something
>different to write a drabble than a story (long or short). I didn't
>think I could do it until recently when Dwim encouraged me to try. I
>*know* it takes something different to write a poem. Not everyone
>that can write a story can write a poem, and vice versa, though some
>can do both.
>
>So what does it take to write a successful vignette? And is that
>different from what it takes to write a successful story? (And if we
>break story down into long and short, I don't think what it takes to
>write each successfully will differ all that much.)
>
>--Ainaechoiriel
>posting from the web
>

Responding to the questions above: As a writer of haiku and
drabbles, I think the answers are different. I have tried to write
stories but lack the talent. However, I can research well and write
research articles. A drabble requires the ability to write a short
concise piece in which every word counts and must be part of the
plot. A poem is similar to a drabble but usually has a form of
length and rhyme unless the author is writing free verse. A poem, I
think, needs to follow the form chosen or it is awful. I read a poem
written as a series of haiku but the author strayed from the form and
it did not work. As for a story, I am not sure but think it is
different from the other two in terms of form and style.

Antoinette

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> I *knew* I should have checked my computers before I left for work.
> (My remote software is telling me my home computer is offline....)

> Well, I think it takes the same talent and skills to write a long
> story or a short story. Beginnings, middles, ends, pacing, plot,
> characterization, etc. All those go into both. You can't say the
> same thing about a drabble. There's no time for pacing. The
> beginning and end are so close together that there really is no
> middle. There is characterization, but generally of only one
> character.

How about if we see if the results of the voting is biased towards the longer
stories (since the general perception would be that longer stories get more
feedback, right?) If there's a definite pattern, than might be something we
want to think about for next year?

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Larian Elensar
<larian_elensar@y...> wrote:

> How about if we see if the results of the voting is biased towards

the longer

> stories (since the general perception would be that longer stories

get more

> feedback, right?) If there's a definite pattern, than might be

something we

> want to think about for next year?

We *could* but we'd still have to define short and long. And I don't
particularly want to do that. Who is going to do the watching of the
results? Is there one person in this group who has or will read
*every* story nominated to know if they are long or short?

In my experience with the ASC awards, long and short have their own
advantages.

Long stories are remembered better. So the reader who read the story
awhile back is more likely to comment on it.

Short stories have the advantage of time. If the reader hasn't read
some stories and voting season has come, the reader is more likely to
read shorter stories than longer ones, and thus more likely to
comment on the shorter ones.

Now, at ASC we don't have Reading Season. That's because we have
that built-in pool of stories posted during the whole year. We know
the whole year long which stories will be in the voting. We have the
option to read the whole year long. I often don't get around to
doing that because I'm involved in the LOTR fandom. So most of my
Trek reading came right at the time of the awards. I read shorter
stories.

Because we don't have that built-in pool of stories, we need time to
read the stories once they are nominated (because they may be stories
were are not familiar with or in archives we don't frequent
ourselves). So we have Reading Season to give the longer stories a
shot. It's my way of evening up the odds.

So each kind (long and short) have their advantages and
disadvantages. Reading Season is my way of dealing with that within
the rules.

And my way of dealing with that within advice is my oft repeated:
Vote early! If you write up your comments right after reading the
story, memory is not a part of the equation anymore. Thus long story
advantage is gone. If you use the 2 1/2 month Reading Season to read
long and short stories, you negate the advantage shorter stories
have. Evens the playing field.

That's still only about story categories. For author categories, I
still think that what it takes to successfully write a long story and
what it takes to successfully write a short story is not sufficiently
different as to warrant a separate subcategory for each.

--Ainaechoiriel

I would vote for a separate category for vignettes. I think they are quite
different from a story as there is no need for many of the essential story
ingredients. ie a successful vignette can be written without a
beginning/middle/end, without a plot, without dialogue, with only one
character etc. A vignette is like a snapshot from a story, you don't need to
explain how you got there, or what happens next, just describe what is
happening now.

Sorne/Enros

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
> Sent: 06 July 2004 02:58
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Author categories, a question.....
>
> But there is still one questionable form: vignette.
>
> Vignettes are essentially a short story taking the place in only
> one scene.
> But it's still a short story. Unlike a drabble, it's not restricted to a
> certain number of words. You could have a 1-page vignette or a 3-page
> vignette.

Good points, and from the poll thus far, I think most people agree with you.
I was leaning the other way, but you may have convinced me here.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sorne&Enros [mailto:Sorne&Enros@magic-tortoise.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:18 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Author categories, a question.....
>
> I would vote for a separate category for vignettes. I think
> they are quite different from a story as there is no need for
> many of the essential story ingredients. ie a successful
> vignette can be written without a beginning/middle/end,
> without a plot, without dialogue, with only one character
> etc. A vignette is like a snapshot from a story, you don't
> need to explain how you got there, or what happens next, just
> describe what is happening now.
>
> Sorne/Enros
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ainaechoiriel [mailto:mefaadmin@earthlink.net]
> > Sent: 06 July 2004 02:58
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Author categories, a question.....
> >
> > But there is still one questionable form: vignette.
> >
> > Vignettes are essentially a short story taking the place in
> only one
> > scene.
> > But it's still a short story. Unlike a drabble, it's not
> restricted
> > to a certain number of words. You could have a 1-page
> vignette or a
> > 3-page vignette.
>
>
>
>
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