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Hi Ainae,

>> Okay, I think I just had a "Eureka!" moment and saw at least one of

the

>> advantages of graduated categories.

<snip>

>> if you only allow one levels of
>>subcategories, you could not have (Men/Gondor/Poetry).
>>I was assuming that a subcategory could have its own sub-

subcategory.

>>Maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part.

> Right. I don't want to have sub/subcategories and I think my new

revelation

> that I think categories should be based on content and subcategories

*may*

> be based on format (or content, if that wasn't understood) should

help.

It does. If I were running the awards, I might opt for sub-
subcategories, but who knows? And the bottom line is, as I said
before, it's *not* my awards. Now that I understand the reasoning, I'm
fine with graduated categories and will stop arguing against them.

Thanks for putitng up with me until I figured out why I didn't
understand.

<snip>

>> that's better - if people are seeing the banners. I archive
>>most of my stuff at HASA, where banners aren't allowed. And I'm

still

>>building my own site. So I hadn't even gotten around to looking at
>>the banners where I had won! I thought they just had the
>>subcategories on them if there was one.

> Sorry for snapping.

It's okay. I was feeling pretty irritable myself, so I probably
interpreted things in an uncharitable light.

> For places where you can't put banners, I'm all for
> adding the award in text: Winner of the Morgoth Bauglir Award for

1st Place

> Horror Fiction in the 2004 Middle-Earth Fanficiton Awards.

Sure. Their might be less verbose ways to word it (i.e., "MEFA Winner:
Morgoth Bauglir Award (Horror/1st Place)", or "MEFA Winner: 1st Place,
Horror (Morgoth Bauglir Award)", or something like that). But I think
it's up to the individual author to decide exactly how they want to
word it.

Can we put this suggestion into an FAQ somewhere, so people know? I
think if we didn't his I'd be satisfied.

<snip>

>>But in the end, that's just my opinion. And though I am committing a
>>fair amount of time and energy, in the end they're not *my* awards.
>>If the catchiness is part of what makes it fun for you, then so be

it.

> Yep that's sort of what it comes down to. The MEFAs are my little

baby. I

> created them and so I want them to retain the parts I feel are

important.

> Even the gimicky parts. ;-)
>

And I can understand and accept that. I guess the hard part for me is
that I have a hard time knowing what's up for negotiation and what
you're not willing to change. For example, when we have a poll on
something, is it a done deal - whatever the result is, we'll go with
that? Or is it just a tool for you to figure out what people like, so
you can make a better decision? Or is to sometimes one and sometimes
the other?

I guess this is where I get confused. It's like some of the time the
decision is made by the group, and sometimes it's made by you, but I'm
never quite sure which it is. If I were running the awards I would
probably do it all one way or all the other: *either* every issue is
votable and if the group decides to change something it's changed;
nothings off-limits. *Or* everything is decided by Ainae, and the rest
of the group can try to convince her, but there are no issues that are
decided solely by popular vote.

> >Can we have a list of what is negotiable and what's not? I have to
>>say, I keep feel like I'm stepping on your toes. It's not what I
>>intend to do, but if I understood what you're not willing to change,
>>then I could try to be more respectful of that.
>
> Unfortunately, I often don't know until I get there. Let's see

what we've

> hit so far:
>
> 1) Comment-based. A definite.
> 2) There will be gimicky award titles
> 3) Banners will be creative and not overly standardized
> 4) Authors can self-nominate with no recriminations
> 5) Categories based on content.
>
> I can't remember any others at this time.
>

Okay. Can you put these in a file somewhere, so we can refer to them
later if we need to? (I'd do it for you, but you might want to add to
it later.)

<snip>

> >But you already have Men/Poetry, Romance/Poetry, Elves/Poetry,
>> Drama/Poetry - at least as often as they're viable. I don't think
>> you'd have to have this many subcategories.
>
> Dwim helped me find my opinion. (Really does happen through

discussion for

> me, a lot of times.)
>

The same happens for me. I can accept your opinion, now that I
understand both yours and my own better.

<snip>

>>> I don't understand this. Aphasia stepping in. I did get some of

it. I do

>>> write poetry. I don't write it formally. I don't write sonnets or

whatevers.

>>> But I have written some poetry and probably will in the future.

You can

>>> read it at HASA if you like. Several of the poems are in my forum.

>> Sorry, I might be confusing you with someone else. RL has been

really

>> grisly lately, and my memory is iffy at best. (And sorry if I'm
>> coming across as more antagonistic than I usually do. I think I

might

>> be, but it's not intended if I am.)

> Iffy memories, I understand. Be careful. I know why you've been

stressed

> with RL. Let me be a warning to you, and anyone else. As far as I

know, I'm

> the only person who has gotten aphasia from stress. If you start to

have

> memory loss, lack of concentration, inability to do things you used

to be

> able to do....you're running into trouble. See a counselor, try

finding

> ways to reduce your stress (some things you can reduce, some you

have no

> control over).

I have a lot of those problems, though probably not on the same level
as you. Try not to worry about me; I am seeing a counselor for it, and
for me, there's a definite reason; a lot of those are symptoms of
depression and PTSD, both of which I've been diagnosed with. So at
least with me I have a name and reason, which helps a lot.

I have been trying to take it easy. I spent much of last night curled
up with _Now We Are Six_ (a book from the Pooh series) and a mug of
hot cocoa. Thanks for the suggestion; it did me a lot of good.

<snip>

>> Excellent. Should I go ahead and create one, or add it to the
>> database? Or is there anything else you need me to do?
>
> Just add it to the database for now. Let's get on to more

suggestions of

> new categories if we can. Then we'll take a look at the list and

make

> decisions (mostly with polls).
>

Okay, I'll do that.

>>> But yes, those research articles would have
>>> to posted on a public (not members-only) site BEFORE Nomination

Season

>>> starts. Not after.

>> Sure. But just so I understand - why is this so? You allow stories
>> written in a language other than English, don't you? This doesn't
>> seem that different to me.
>
> That's been in the rules from the get-go. Any nomination has to be

on a

> public website, otherwise all the MEFA winners would have to sign up

at

> every website to read the nomination. It has to be in a place where

no

> sign-ins are necessary.

Yes, I understand it's an award - but I was wondering why it was
necessary. You have in the FAQ:

Q: Can I submit my German translation of my story?
A: You can nominate it, or any other language story, but whether or
not it will be voted on depends on whether or not there are any voters
who can read those stories.

This same thinking could apply to stories at archives with log-ins.
Just as with foreign language stories, only a subset of the readers
will be able to read it. So perhaps it is not in the best interest of
the author in question. They're restricting the pool of people who
could read it and vote for it. But I don't see how it's fundamentally
different from allowing stories that aren't in English.

I'm not really questioning this policy -- just trying to understand
it.

> And just to have some sort of deadline (there are
> literally tens of thousands of stories in the LOTR fandom), we have

a

> cut-off date.

I see what you're saying here. But would it make more sense to have
the deadline be the *end* of nomination season instead of the
beginning? People shouldn't be checking ballots or reading stories
before this, anyway.

<snip>

> So, Marta, you might want to offer any of those Research Article

authors a

> secondary public site for their articles, if you have the space. It

may

> likely become a category (under Genres).
>

I'll do that. Thanks.

>>> That could be your opinion. Personally, I don't find it AU, but

some might.

>>> Some are easy to spot, I'll grant you. Dwim's LDID, every Mary Sue

fic ever

>>> written.... But some are slippery.

>> With all due respect, it doesn't really matter what an individual
>> reader considers AU. With the category guide we get to define what

is

>> AU for the purposes of this award, and authors get to decide

whether

>> their story fits that category

> Yeah, but defining it can be tough. Look at the trouble we had a

HASA on the

> review guidelines. Let's put up some definitions and then we can

put them

> to a poll.
>
> Here's mine:
>
> An AU story is one that concretely diverges from the source

material. For

> the MEFAs, this means The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of

the

> Rings. Examples of concrete diversions would be "What if"

scenarios, new

> characters, etc.
>

I pretty much agree with this definition, except with the last bit:
new characters. We know from book!canon that Barahir was the grandson
of Faramir; but we do not know that he was the *only* grandchild. So
to give Barahir a sister isn't necessarily AU -- it's filling a gap
but not positively breaking canon. Maybe:

Examples of concrete diversions would be "What if" scenarios, new
characters where existing canon prohibits them (for example, giving
Boromir and Faramir a sister), etc.

I also think you might tweak your definition of canon a little, maybe:

For the MEFAs, this means The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord
of the Rings (for bookverse stories), and Peter Jackson's trilogy of
movies (for movieverse stories).

Besides that, though, I like your definition.

> I'd define Movie-verse as stories that are based primarily on events

in the

> Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films rather than on the books by

Tolkien.

>

That sounds good.

> And for splices and blends, I'd just let the author categorize them
> somewhere else.
>

Or they could run in either the movieverse category or the appropriate
book, if the author feels they are predominately one rather than the
other.

>>> Nobody said we're going with Movie-verse yet. It's still just a

suggestion.

>> As is my suggestion that we change it to "Time/Source". If we

decide

>> not to make movieverse a category, the suggestion is moot.

> Okay, I've warmed up to this, but only if movie-verse makes it as a
> category.

Good. Should I add it to the database?

<snip>

>>> And if it ends up unviable?

>> So be it. If it's not viable, we can always move the stories to the
>> second and third choices just like any other category. And we can
>> rethink about it for 2006. But I really think there are enough
>> stories out there that it probably won't be.

> I'm just a contrary author. I don't like calling any of Trek

stories AU

> either, though especially the later ones had to diverge from the

source

> material because the source material ended the war and split up the

crew

> before I was done with either!

I can't even imagine writing in an evolving canon. At least with
Tolkien, it's all pretty much written and won't be changing... Trek
would be much more tricky.

> I liked to call myself canon-compatible,
> meaning my stories could conceivably fit nebulously in the timeline

between

> seasons or episodes or whatever. To me an AU means something is
> significantly different. Like Gollum not being there, or Bashir did

get

> kicked out of Starfleet. If all the characters act like the

characters and

> all the events of canon happened, then, well it's not AU to me.

I don't think it has to be a significant change -- just a concrete
one, no matter how minor. For example, I've often toyed with the idea
of making Gimli Balin's son instead of Glóin's son, and writing the
Council of Elrond with it Balin coming. For me this is not that
significant of a change; the key point is that Gimli is the son of
*one* of _The Hobbit_) dwarves, not necessarily which one. But it
would still be an AU.

Whereas, for me, Denethor physically abusing his sons is just so
contrary to how I see his character, that I have a hard time with
stories where this plays a role. It feels very OOC to me. (And I know,
that's just my opinion.) But I know that canon never said Denethor
*didn't* abuse them, and so I can't properly call such a story AU.

And from your other email on graduated categories:

*****

> Some categories are harder than others. Poetry would be hard.

Gondor being

> a place, it's easy to come up with smaller places within it or

significant

> people. LOTR was easy with three books. The Hobbit was easy with

three

> places on the journey, Rohan was easy with the three royals, etc.

Some were

> trickier.
>

Is it fair to say that Time/Books and Races/Places are generally
easier than genres? I.e., Rohan is easier than Drama?

<snip>

>> I think this is my fault. For the life of me I cannot remember the
>> discussion that occurred. I'm not saying it *didn't*, just that I

have no

>> recollection of it. Can you perhaps point me to the first message

in that

>> thread and I'll go read it myself?

> Me? No. My memory is likely worse than yours and my aversion to

research

> goes far back before the stress that damaged me.

Fair enough! And given that I now understand the reasoning a lot
better, it's a moot point.

> Hey, I picked an MA
> program without a thesis for a reason! And I'm not envious of Dwim

and all

> her homework at all!

I am a research geek. Always have been, always will be. When I turned
in my undergraduate honors thesis (a 40-page research paper, so
nothing like a masters-level thesis) at the end of my *junior* year, I
think my advisors' eyes grew wider than anyone's I've ever seen. I'm
just that kind of person.

> What I remember is that there were questions in the
> beginning of the Post Mortem about fairness of categories which kind

of blew

> me away. When Shadow975 and I were brainstorming we weren't

thinking of

> fairness. Fairness never came into it. Who knew Gondor would have

so many

> stories and Numenor so few? It was all just brainstorming. But

yes, Gondor

> was mentioned specifically. People thought it had been unfairly

left out

> when it had loads of stories and Numenor and Rohan weren't left out

and they

> didn't have as many combined. Even during Check Ballot season,

seeing so

> many Men/Gondor nominations, I thought hey, we're going to have to

have a

> Gondor category next year. It was more of a lack of foresight than
> anything. So now, with graduated categories, it allows for lack of
> foresight.
>

A very good thing. Remember, not even the very wise can foresee all
ends. ;-)

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 5:27 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Categories... graduated and sub- and new ones, oh my!



Hi Ainae,

>It does. If I were running the awards, I might opt for sub-

subcategories, but who knows? And the bottom line is, as I said
before, it's *not* my awards. Now that I understand the reasoning, I'm
fine with graduated categories and will stop arguing against them.

>Thanks for putitng up with me until I figured out why I didn't

understand.

Thanks for putting up with me in return. I realize I'm a rather strange
being. And this whole brain warp thing I've undergone doesn't help.

>Sure. Their might be less verbose ways to word it (i.e., "MEFA Winner:

Morgoth Bauglir Award (Horror/1st Place)", or "MEFA Winner: 1st Place,
Horror (Morgoth Bauglir Award)", or something like that). But I think
it's up to the individual author to decide exactly how they want to
word it.

Right, you can write it up however you want.

>Can we put this suggestion into an FAQ somewhere, so people know? I

think if we didn't his I'd be satisfied.

Again it feels like setting the bar low to me, but yeah, we can do that.

<snip>

>>But in the end, that's just my opinion. And though I am committing a
>>fair amount of time and energy, in the end they're not *my* awards.
>>If the catchiness is part of what makes it fun for you, then so be

it.

>And I can understand and accept that. I guess the hard part for me is

that I have a hard time knowing what's up for negotiation and what
you're not willing to change. For example, when we have a poll on
something, is it a done deal - whatever the result is, we'll go with
that? Or is it just a tool for you to figure out what people like, so
you can make a better decision? Or is to sometimes one and sometimes
the other?

That's just the way I am. I'm the same with my beta readers. Some things I
write are negotiable. Some are not. When I was writing my BTVS/Angel fic, I
needed contributing authors to help with the characterization and dialogue
(among other things). The author that got the job of characterization and
dialogue had the authorization to rewrite my dialogue so that it still said
what I wrote but sounded more in character in that witty way that BTVS was
written. But there were times when I told him he couldn't change a word.
Because that was the way the inspiration hit me.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I am just that way. Some things are
negotiable. Some are not. The ones that I put up for a poll go the way the
poll goes. Or quite frankly, I'd have a different banner up for one of my
awards (won't say which one. It's not that it's a bad banner but it's not
the one I voted for).

>I guess this is where I get confused. It's like some of the time the

decision is made by the group, and sometimes it's made by you, but I'm
never quite sure which it is. If I were running the awards I would
probably do it all one way or all the other: *either* every issue is
votable and if the group decides to change something it's changed;
nothings off-limits. *Or* everything is decided by Ainae, and the rest
of the group can try to convince her, but there are no issues that are
decided solely by popular vote.

I don’t like to be a dictator, but I also don't want to let these awards get
away from me. If it had all been up to the majority in the beginning, the
MEFAs would have been the Mithrils. I was in on that discussion early and
promoted the comment-based concept. The majority didn't want it, were
afraid of it, or whatever. The majority went in a way I would not. I left
the discussion and the group. Two years later, I decided to create the
MEFAs. The important (to me, I suppose) stuff would be how I wanted. Others
would be negotiable. And since I mostly just borrowed from ASC and then
just tweaked, well, that makes the first year a bit of an experiment. I'd
never been the administrator for the ASC awards though I had been some small
part of the staff. This was an experiment. We're all learning as we go. I
just know some more of it than everyone else.

> 1) Comment-based. A definite.
> 2) There will be gimicky award titles
> 3) Banners will be creative and not overly standardized
> 4) Authors can self-nominate with no recriminations
> 5) Categories based on content.

>Okay. Can you put these in a file somewhere, so we can refer to them

later if we need to? (I'd do it for you, but you might want to add to
it later.)

Okay, I'll put it in the Files sections.

<snip>

>I have a lot of those problems, though probably not on the same level

as you. Try not to worry about me; I am seeing a counselor for it, and
for me, there's a definite reason; a lot of those are symptoms of
depression and PTSD, both of which I've been diagnosed with. So at
least with me I have a name and reason, which helps a lot.

I have some PTSD myself, though I'm not sure how it fits into the aphasia.
Stress is a campaign for me. No one else should have their mind degrade the
way mine has because of stress. I've come to be content with some of it.
(God once told me He was keeping me weak so I could see Him better. And I
now wouldn't trade that for my old brain back.) But it can be annoying and
the aphasia is a bit scary to say the least. (BTW, God said that before the
aphasia.)

>I have been trying to take it easy. I spent much of last night curled

up with _Now We Are Six_ (a book from the Pooh series) and a mug of
hot cocoa. Thanks for the suggestion; it did me a lot of good.

Good for you! I'd like the hot cocoa but I'm dieting again so I can't afford
the calories. I had a hot tea today instead. (Just 3.5 pounds to go to get
back to my 110 goal.)

>Yes, I understand it's an award - but I was wondering why it was

necessary. You have in the FAQ:

>Q: Can I submit my German translation of my story?

A: You can nominate it, or any other language story, but whether or
not it will be voted on depends on whether or not there are any voters
who can read those stories.

>This same thinking could apply to stories at archives with log-ins.

Just as with foreign language stories, only a subset of the readers
will be able to read it. So perhaps it is not in the best interest of
the author in question. They're restricting the pool of people who
could read it and vote for it. But I don't see how it's fundamentally
different from allowing stories that aren't in English.

>I'm not really questioning this policy -- just trying to understand

it.

To me, it's not the same thing. One is about access the other is about
education. Even if someone nominates a Norwegian story, as long as it's
accessible (without login) everyone has access to it. Not everyone can read
it or will bother to do so with an Norwegian-English dictionary at hand.
Allowing stories that are on log-in sites restricts the access to only those
voters with a login. Whether they know the language or not.

> And just to have some sort of deadline (there are
> literally tens of thousands of stories in the LOTR fandom), we have

a

> cut-off date.

>I see what you're saying here. But would it make more sense to have

the deadline be the *end* of nomination season instead of the
beginning? People shouldn't be checking ballots or reading stories
before this, anyway.

I honestly don't think I can say why right now, but the idea of changing
that just doesn't sit right with me. People can be reading stories (and
voting early) all year long! I advocated that through all the seasons last
year. We're always reading. That's where we find stories to nominate. If
you find a story you think is worth nominating, make a list, write your vote
and save it. Then nominate when the time comes and vote with that time
comes.

Anyway, this was decided early on. At this time, I'm just going to add it
to the non-negotiables.

Oh, I just remembered why (and it's still going to be non-negotiable).
Remember that these awards are inspired by (and largely borrowed from) the
Alt.StarTrek.Creative Awards. We only have nominations because we don't
have our own archive. If we had our own archive, every story posted to it
by the deadline would be nominated by default. We don't have that so we
have to mimick it, via open nominations. But the ASC Award year begins the
first day of February and ends the last day of January. We can go with the
beginning because of the gazillions of stories out there we'd be tossing
out. But we can go with an end date. And it's good to have a perfect year.
Start of May to end of April. (Only the poll suggests changing that just
this once. It was May in 2004 just because I just decided to do this in
April. May was the next month. When the schedule came out to end in
October that did turn out to be a problem. I was reading stories and trying
to get my last votes in while waiting for trick-or-treaters at my sister's
house. End of September will be easier on everyone I think.

Anyway, Nomination Season marks the end of the MEFA year. The beginning of
it. That's why it's the deadline. Just like it is for ASC. At the ASC
Virtual Staff Offices we're discussing awards now. Getting the FAQ
straightened out, testing the voting web site and vote-counting software
etc. Come Feb. 1st, we SOS maintainers (status of stories. I'm the SOS
Maintainer for DS9) will compile our lists of stories posted throughout the
year, sort them by category and give them to the Admin who will then make
the check ballots and decide on the voting schedule. So no voting actually
happens until March or April, but the Awards did start on Feb. 1st. So, if
I don't have The Honored done by Jan 31st (it's very highly likely I won't,
even though I started it 8 years ago), I won't have an eligible story.
Unless I decide to go against my usual habbit and post the one chapter I
have and let it run as an incomplete. Got less than a month to decide....

Anyway, that's why we have the deadline. The more I borrow from them, the
less work I have to do. And it IS the inspiration for these awards. The
ASC Awards work. And if it's not broke, why fix it?

Anyway, it's on the non-negotiable list now.

>
> Here's mine:
>
> An AU story is one that concretely diverges from the source

material. For

> the MEFAs, this means The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of

the

> Rings. Examples of concrete diversions would be "What if"

scenarios, new

> characters, etc.
>

>I pretty much agree with this definition, except with the last bit:

new characters. We know from book!canon that Barahir was the grandson
of Faramir; but we do not know that he was the *only* grandchild. So
to give Barahir a sister isn't necessarily AU -- it's filling a gap
but not positively breaking canon.

Good point.

>Maybe:

>Examples of concrete diversions would be "What if" scenarios, new

characters where existing canon prohibits them (for example, giving
Boromir and Faramir a sister), etc.

Good addition. I like that.

>I also think you might tweak your definition of canon a little, maybe:

>For the MEFAs, this means The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord

of the Rings (for bookverse stories), and Peter Jackson's trilogy of
movies (for movieverse stories).

>Besides that, though, I like your definition.

Okay, any objections to these? Marta, can you put them in a separate post
so they're not buried in here? I really need to finish this post and get to
my chores. It's trash dady tomorrow and I have 3 cat boxes to clean. Yay,
aren't you jealous?

> I'd define Movie-verse as stories that are based primarily on events

in the

> Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films rather than on the books by

Tolkien.

>

>That sounds good.

> And for splices and blends, I'd just let the author categorize them
> somewhere else.
>

>Or they could run in either the movieverse category or the appropriate

book, if the author feels they are predominately one rather than the
other.

Exactly.

> Okay, I've warmed up to this, but only if movie-verse makes it as a
> category.

>Good. Should I add it to the database?

There's no real place for it. It's not a category. I think we can remember
this one.

>I can't even imagine writing in an evolving canon. At least with

Tolkien, it's all pretty much written and won't be changing... Trek
would be much more tricky.

It worked for a few years, but then they did something really drastic and
ended the war.... And the series. Ah well.

>I don't think it has to be a significant change -- just a concrete

one, no matter how minor. For example, I've often toyed with the idea
of making Gimli Balin's son instead of Glóin's son, and writing the
Council of Elrond with it Balin coming. For me this is not that
significant of a change; the key point is that Gimli is the son of
*one* of _The Hobbit_) dwarves, not necessarily which one. But it
would still be an AU.

Right, that's why my first story, though written as canon-compatible, became
AU. They finally gave Bashir a back story and it wasn’t the one I'd written
for him. I still count that story as part of the history of my other
stories though, except that I ignore the part about his family history and
go with the canon one now.

>Whereas, for me, Denethor physically abusing his sons is just so

contrary to how I see his character, that I have a hard time with
stories where this plays a role. It feels very OOC to me. (And I know,
that's just my opinion.) But I know that canon never said Denethor
*didn't* abuse them, and so I can't properly call such a story AU.

Yep. Even if it seems OC, it's still in the realm of possibility, so it's
not a concrete change.

>And from your other email on graduated categories:

*****

Re: award names

>Is it fair to say that Time/Books and Races/Places are generally

easier than genres? I.e., Rohan is easier than Drama?

Yes and no. When the category, like LOTR, offers up three obvious titles,
it's easy. The Silm wasn't as easy. It wasn't really hard though. But for
the genres, it wasn't hard either. Look at Crossovers. The actors of the
three hunters had all done other movies.... For Drama we picked three angsty
characters. For Humor, we tried for three funny characters, etc. Romance
was the three main Elf-Man romances.

>I am a research geek. Always have been, always will be. When I turned

in my undergraduate honors thesis (a 40-page research paper, so
nothing like a masters-level thesis) at the end of my *junior* year, I
think my advisors' eyes grew wider than anyone's I've ever seen. I'm
just that kind of person.

Hmmm...you do research for fun? That could prove useful.....

> It was more of a lack of foresight than
> anything. So now, with graduated categories, it allows for lack of
> foresight.
>

>A very good thing. Remember, not even the very wise can foresee all

ends. ;-)

Ah that does make me feel better! ;-)

Off to those cat boxes.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Hi Ainae,

> >Thanks for putitng up with me until I figured out why I didn't
>> understand.

> Thanks for putting up with me in return.

You're welcome.

> I realize I'm a rather strange
> being.

Welcome to the fandom! 3'6" hairy-footed hole-dwellers... walking
trees... things that go "gollum"... I think we both fit right in. ;-)

> And this whole brain warp thing I've undergone doesn't help.
>

No, it really doesn't. Which is why I try to read everything at
least two or three times before forming an opinion. Of course,
sometimes my own stuff requires the same.

<snip award titles>

> >Can we put this suggestion into an FAQ somewhere, so people know?

I

> > think if we didn't his I'd be satisfied.
>
> Again it feels like setting the bar low to me, but yeah, we can do

that.

>

You may be right... but I took one major lesson away from my time
admining at a major fanfic archive and moderating for several Yahoo
groups: "Make it idiot-proof, and they'll build a better idiot."
What I mean is, it may seem like setting the bar low to you and me,
but the chances are pretty good that it could cause confusion or
problems for someone. In my experience it's better to spell things
like this out, and hope it wasn't really necessary.

> <snip>
> >And I can understand and accept that. I guess the hard part for

me is

>> that I have a hard time knowing what's up for negotiation and

what

>> you're not willing to change. For example, when we have a poll on
>> something, is it a done deal - whatever the result is, we'll go

with

>> that? Or is it just a tool for you to figure out what people

like, so

>> you can make a better decision? Or is to sometimes one and

sometimes

>> the other?
>
> That's just the way I am. I'm the same with my beta readers. Some

things I

> write are negotiable. Some are not.

<snip examples -- but boy, you do write in a lot of different
fandoms!>

> Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I am just that way. Some

things are

> negotiable. Some are not. The ones that I put up for a poll go

the way the

> poll goes.

Okay, but the relationship between beta and author or between co-
authors is much more intimate than what we're dealing with here.
Believe me, I know! I am part of a beta circle with four other
writers, so I am very familiar with that kind of relationship. But
this means that when I suggest changes to the people I beta, I know
what kind of suggestions they're receptive to and they have a pretty
good idea of what exactly I mean.

Whereas here, I don't intrinsically know what's negotiable and
what's not negotiable. The more I talk to you about these awards the
more I get to see where you're coming from. But it's still a work-in-
progress of sorts.

I don't think anything needs to be done about this (or even *can*
be) -- I'm just pointing this out so we're both aware of the
potential difficulty.

<snip>

> >Yes, I understand it's an award - but I was wondering why it was
>> necessary. You have in the FAQ:
>
> >Q: Can I submit my German translation of my story?
>> A: You can nominate it, or any other language story, but whether

or

>> not it will be voted on depends on whether or not there are any

voters

>> who can read those stories.
>
> >This same thinking could apply to stories at archives with log-

ins.

>> Just as with foreign language stories, only a subset of the

readers

>> will be able to read it. So perhaps it is not in the best

interest of

>> the author in question. They're restricting the pool of people

who

>> could read it and vote for it. But I don't see how it's

fundamentally

>> different from allowing stories that aren't in English.
>
> >I'm not really questioning this policy -- just trying to

understand

>> it.

> To me, it's not the same thing. One is about access the other is

about

> education. Even if someone nominates a Norwegian story, as long

as it's

> accessible (without login) everyone has access to it. Not

everyone can read

> it or will bother to do so with an Norwegian-English dictionary at

hand.

> Allowing stories that are on log-in sites restricts the access to

only those

> voters with a login. Whether they know the language or not.
>

Okay, I think I can see what you're saying. Personally, I think most
people are much more likely to join an archive than learn a foreign
language to read a story, but I do see the distinction you're
drawing.

[moving deadline for public posting to end of voting season]

> Oh, I just remembered why (and it's still going to be non-

negotiable).

> Remember that these awards are inspired by (and largely borrowed

from) the

> Alt.StarTrek.Creative Awards. We only have nominations because we

don't

> have our own archive. If we had our own archive, every story

posted to it

> by the deadline would be nominated by default. We don't have that

so we

> have to mimick it, via open nominations. But the ASC Award year

begins the

> first day of February and ends the last day of January. We can go

with the

> beginning because of the gazillions of stories out there we'd be

tossing

> out. But we can go with an end date.

I understand why have to have an end date; for me the question is
why it has to be the *beginning* of nominations season.

Since we're having a nomination *season* (instead of one day where
everyone has to post all their nominations together), it seems to me
logical that people are getting their nominations together during
that season. Of course you can start getting those nominations
together beforehand, just like you can vote early - but the whole
concept of a season suggests you don't *have* to.

Now, for me (since I do most of my reading at HASA) one key
component of getting my nominations together is making sure the
piece is publicly accessible. Usually this is just a matter of
hunting down the appropriate link, but if it *isn't* available, it
seems logically like this would be the time to get that problem
resolved. It's kind of a mixed message - "You have nomination season
to get your nominations in, but you should really have all that
organized beforehand so you can make sure it's all publicly
accessible."

I'm sorry if I'm going on about something that's non-negotiable. I
understand the need for a deadline, and I understand the value of
borrowing from the ASCs... but like you've admitted, the ASCs are
their own archive, so things work differently for them.

Anyway, that's my $.02 on this matter.

> > Here's mine:
> >
> > An AU story is one that concretely diverges from the source
> material. For
> > the MEFAs, this means The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord

of

> the
> > Rings. Examples of concrete diversions would be "What if"
> scenarios, new
> > characters, etc.
> >
>
> >I pretty much agree with this definition, except with the last

bit:

> new characters. We know from book!canon that Barahir was the

grandson

> of Faramir; but we do not know that he was the *only* grandchild.

So

> to give Barahir a sister isn't necessarily AU -- it's filling a

gap

> but not positively breaking canon.
>
> Good point.
>
> >Maybe:
>
> >Examples of concrete diversions would be "What if" scenarios, new
> characters where existing canon prohibits them (for example,

giving

> Boromir and Faramir a sister), etc.
>
> Good addition. I like that.
>
> >I also think you might tweak your definition of canon a little,

maybe:

>
> >For the MEFAs, this means The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The

Lord

> of the Rings (for bookverse stories), and Peter Jackson's trilogy

of

> movies (for movieverse stories).
>
> >Besides that, though, I like your definition.
>
> Okay, any objections to these? Marta, can you put them in a

separate post

> so they're not buried in here?

Good idea. I'll do that.

<snip>

> >I am a research geek. Always have been, always will be. When I

turned

> in my undergraduate honors thesis (a 40-page research paper, so
> nothing like a masters-level thesis) at the end of my *junior*

year, I

> think my advisors' eyes grew wider than anyone's I've ever seen.

I'm

> just that kind of person.
>
> Hmmm...you do research for fun? That could prove useful.....
>

*sigh* I really am a hobbit at heart you know... "they liked to have
books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and
square with no contradictions." If the topic doesn't interest me,
then I'm not likely to put in the legwork, but yes, I do do interest
for its own sake.

(Btw, the quote above? I pulled it from an essay I'm writing
attempting to collect all quotes describing hobbits in one place.
That should give you a clue how far this research tendency goes.)

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:19 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Categories... graduated and sub- and new ones, oh
my!

>Welcome to the fandom! 3'6" hairy-footed hole-dwellers... walking

trees... things that go "gollum"... I think we both fit right in. ;-)

I like to think of myself as a short Elf. ;-) The LOTR Exhibit even said
so...if I stood on my tippy toes.

>re: aiming low...
>You may be right... but I took one major lesson away from my time

admining at a major fanfic archive and moderating for several Yahoo
groups: "Make it idiot-proof, and they'll build a better idiot."
What I mean is, it may seem like setting the bar low to you and me,
but the chances are pretty good that it could cause confusion or
problems for someone. In my experience it's better to spell things
like this out, and hope it wasn't really necessary.

Yeah, I see that at work. (I'm a tech support technition--and there's that
aphasia again)

> <snip>
><snip examples -- but boy, you do write in a lot of different

fandoms!>

Yep, and now I'm even writing in another fandom under a secret penname.

>Whereas here, I don't intrinsically know what's negotiable and

what's not negotiable. The more I talk to you about these awards the
more I get to see where you're coming from. But it's still a work-in-
progress of sorts.

Yep, thus is my brain....

>I don't think anything needs to be done about this (or even *can*

be) -- I'm just pointing this out so we're both aware of the
potential difficulty.

Understood.

<snip>

> >To me, it's not the same thing. One is about access the other is

about

> education.

>Okay, I think I can see what you're saying. Personally, I think most

people are much more likely to join an archive than learn a foreign
language to read a story, but I do see the distinction you're
drawing.

Perhaps, but not everyone wants to join every archive out there. I think
(and I could be wrong) generally people have theirusual haunts and that's
where they go to look for stories. Me, I go to ff.net. Occasionally, I got
to HASA (but most of those stories are also on ff.net). I don't really go
anywhere else unless a specific link is provided, and if a login is
required, I usually back myself right back out of it. Unless it's a story
I'm dying for, I won't bother with yet another username and password.

>I understand why have to have an end date; for me the question is

why it has to be the *beginning* of nominations season.

If for nothing else than to not have an overlap. The stories for the 2004
MEFA Awards ended on April 30th. The 2005 Awards year is from May 1, 2004
to March 31st, 2005 (because the poll ended saying that we will start up one
month early). The 2006 Awards year will be April 1st, 2005 to March 31st,
2006.

If we did it the other way, we'd have overlap: 2005 Award year is May 1st,
2004 to May 15th, 2005. 2006 Awards year is April 1st, 2005 to May 15t,
2006

So what Awards year does April 17th, 2005 fall within?

In te overlap case, I'ts two years: 2005 and 2006. With no overlap, it's
just 2006.

I don't want an overlap.

>Since we're having a nomination *season* (instead of one day where

everyone has to post all their nominations together)

Yeah, that would go over well. Even with an electronic system we'd have a
horde of complainers because of time differences, etc.

>, it seems to me

logical that people are getting their nominations together during
that season. Of course you can start getting those nominations
together beforehand, just like you can vote early - but the whole
concept of a season suggests you don't *have* to.

You've got a month and ahalf to do it as it is, and it worked well last
year. We had nearly 600 nominations. Seems to be plenty of time.

>Now, for me (since I do most of my reading at HASA) one key

component of getting my nominations together is making sure the
piece is publicly accessible. Usually this is just a matter of
hunting down the appropriate link, but if it *isn't* available, it
seems logically like this would be the time to get that problem
resolved. It's kind of a mixed message - "You have nomination season
to get your nominations in, but you should really have all that
organized beforehand so you can make sure it's all publicly
accessible."

I would hope that it's also an encouragement to authors. If you want your
stuff read widely, get it out to a public site. Otherwise, tell th author
of that otherwise wonderful story that yo'd love to nominate her story for a
MEFA but you can't since it's not publicaly accessible. If she could please
post it somewhere else, you'd be happy to nominate it next year.

Said author may then become curious as to what she just got passed up for,
decide to look into it and investigate it somewhat. She may then decide
that, yes, she would like to be considered for such a thing, and post her
story to a public site so that it can be included the next year.

Even HASA has a public side. If you're reading something great there now on
the Members only side, see if the author would like to submit it or if she
has posted it somewhere else that doesn't require a login. Many of the
stories on the HASA members Only side are Members Only because the authors
haven't decided they want it public yet. That might mean they also don't
want it public for these awards yet.

If I read a great story on ASC on February 1st, I still know it's not
elligible until the next year.

>I'm sorry if I'm going on about something that's non-negotiable. I

understand the need for a deadline, and I understand the value of
borrowing from the ASCs... but like you've admitted, the ASCs are
their own archive, so things work differently for them.

Yeah, but the more I borrow, the less work I have to do. And really, this
does take up a LOT of my time. Certain season especially. Which is a good
thing I'm not more insufficiently reluctant over at ASC. ;-) It's also why
I have over 8800 unread messages for the Henneth-Annun mailing list,
something I used to be very active in.

>Anyway, that's my $.02 on this matter.

So noted.

And I'll say this here and only once. This message will self-destruct in 10
seoncds in order to maintian secrecy: There's not really any way to police
it. Just don't nominate anything that isn't at a public site, and nothing
that is that has a posting time stamp showing after March 31st. (ex. Ff.net
shows when something was posted and when it was updated.)

Okay, now I expect you all to promptly forget I said that. I will heartily
deny it at all times in the future.

>
> Hmmm...you do research for fun? That could prove useful.....
>

>*sigh* I really am a hobbit at heart you know... "they liked to have

books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and
square with no contradictions." If the topic doesn't interest me,
then I'm not likely to put in the legwork, but yes, I do do interest
for its own sake.

I've actually said at one point: I hate research. I'd rather just know
everything up front.

>(Btw, the quote above? I pulled it from an essay I'm writing

attempting to collect all quotes describing hobbits in one place.
That should give you a clue how far this research tendency goes.)

I'll remember this. I may ask your assitance in the future.....
--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Hi Ainae,

Snipping much of the general chit-chat and where we seem to be in
agreement.

<snip>

> >re: aiming low...

<snip>

>> it may seem like setting the bar low to you and me,
>>but the chances are pretty good that it could cause confusion or
>>problems for someone. In my experience it's better to spell things
>>like this out, and hope it wasn't really necessary.

> Yeah, I see that at work. (I'm a tech support technition)

Yes, so you'd have run into the same thing!

I don't think we have to bend over backwards to accommodate people,
but if there are simple things we can do like this, even if they seem
like aiming low to us... well, it's probably not a bad idea.

<snip>

>> Personally, I think most
>> people are much more likely to join an archive than learn a foreign
>>language to read a story, but I do see the distinction you're
>> drawing.

> Perhaps, but not everyone wants to join every archive out there. I

think

> (and I could be wrong) generally people have theirusual haunts and

that's

> where they go to look for stories. Me, I go to ff.net.

Occasionally, I got

> to HASA (but most of those stories are also on ff.net). I don't

really go

> anywhere else unless a specific link is provided, and if a login is
> required, I usually back myself right back out of it. Unless it's a

story

> I'm dying for, I won't bother with yet another username and

password.

*shrug* I don't mind signing up for new log-in information, as I just
add it to a list I keep. But I guess I'm weird like that. It's not a
huge deal, so I won't argue the point further.

Likewise, I understand what you're saying about the deadline for
public posting. I still think it should be at the end of nomination
season, but I can see your point. And it's your awards, and not worth
continuing to discuss; it's really not a big deal to me. So I'll drop
that point.

<snip>

>> I'm sorry if I'm going on about something that's non-negotiable. I
>>understand the need for a deadline, and I understand the value of
>>borrowing from the ASCs... but like you've admitted, the ASCs are
>>their own archive, so things work differently for them.

> Yeah, but the more I borrow, the less work I have to do.

I understand that. I think we can borrow from the ASC until it causes
a problem with these awards - but be flexible to adapt? I mean, my
impulse is that we shouldn't say no to a change just because ASC does
it a different way - but the ASC way can still be the default?

I know, this is all easy for me to say - I am not putting in as much
time as you are.

> And really, this
> does take up a LOT of my time. Certain season especially.

I appreciate that. It takes up a lot of mine, too, and I don't do half
of what you do. Thanks. :-)

Marta

-----Original Message-----
From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:10 PM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Categories... graduated and sub- and new ones, oh
my!



Hi Ainae,

>Snipping much of the general chit-chat and where we seem to be in

agreement.

likewise

<snip>
<snip>

<snip>

> Yeah, but the more I borrow, the less work I have to do.

>I understand that. I think we can borrow from the ASC until it causes

a problem with these awards - but be flexible to adapt? I mean, my
impulse is that we shouldn't say no to a change just because ASC does
it a different way - but the ASC way can still be the default?

That's already what we do. We differ quite a bit now from ASC. The biggest
change has been in there from the beginning: nominations. But I don't see
the deadline as "problem" to be fixed. It makes everything a lot less
confusing for me, though, that's for sure.

>I know, this is all easy for me to say - I am not putting in as much

time as you are.

Thanks.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com