Yahoo Forum Archive

It strikes me as odd that you banned the religion toppic. I want to
find out how far that ban streatches, because it is well known that
many of the Themes used in Tolkien's work come from religion,
particularly the Christian Bible. I hope you don't mean to ban talk
of religion as it appiels to the work of Tolkien. For example

The fall of Adam and Eve that can aply to:

The rebellion of the Noldor
or the sinking of Nemennor

It's not a one to one anaglogy, but Morgoth and Satan have a lot in
common. Both were fallen servents of the creator God, both were known
as decievers, morgoth incited the Noldor to rebllion Satan tempted
Adam and Eve to eat the forbbiden fruit

You weren't here in the early days. There were some toes stepped on and
this really isn't the place for it. Yes, I know that Tolkien was a
Christian and I know there are some similarities in the stories between
Morgoth and Satan, etc. But we don't want this to be a place for arguments
and insults. Take a look at the mission and charter (on the web site and in
the Files section of the Yahoo site). We're here to discuss fanfiction and
the awards. Anything lese must really be marked OT. I'm not a terrible
stickler when it comes to OT, but I do not like arguments and flame wars.
Thus some incendiary topics became out of bounds. This is one of them.
There are other places to discuss it. This just isn't one of them.

--Ainaechoiriel

MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards

Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: elfqueen2003 [mailto:elfqueen2003@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:03 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] irony
>
>
>
> It strikes me as odd that you banned the religion toppic. I
> want to find out how far that ban streatches, because it is
> well known that many of the Themes used in Tolkien's work
> come from religion, particularly the Christian Bible. I hope
> you don't mean to ban talk of religion as it appiels to the
> work of Tolkien. For example
>
> The fall of Adam and Eve that can aply to:
>
> The rebellion of the Noldor
> or the sinking of Nemennor
>
> It's not a one to one anaglogy, but Morgoth and Satan have a
> lot in common. Both were fallen servents of the creator God,
> both were known as decievers, morgoth incited the Noldor to
> rebllion Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbbiden fruit
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
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On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:37:40 -0600, Ainaechoiriel
<mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> You weren't here in the early days. There were some toes stepped on and
> this really isn't the place for it. Yes, I know that Tolkien was a
> Christian and I know there are some similarities in the stories between
> Morgoth and Satan, etc. But we don't want this to be a place for arguments
> and insults. Take a look at the mission and charter (on the web site and
> in
> the Files section of the Yahoo site). We're here to discuss fanfiction and
> the awards. Anything lese must really be marked OT. I'm not a terrible
> stickler when it comes to OT, but I do not like arguments and flame wars.
> Thus some incendiary topics became out of bounds. This is one of them.
> There are other places to discuss it. This just isn't one of them.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>

Ainae,

Can I just clarify?

1. Obviously, general discussion of real-world religion is out? I can
completely understand that, and have a hard time seeing where it would
come up anyway.

2. Discussion of "values", while not tied to a particular religion,
often have strong religious undertones. I remember some of this coming
up when I suggested we allow NC17 stories; some people said they
didn't want them, and giving their reason as in part religious. I
didn't have a problem with this. I think the key here is mutual
respect. If someone says they feel a certain way because of a
religious feeling, we should definitely avoid questioning the validity
of that religious belief (which I think everyone has done so far). But
to say you can't mention religion at all in this context -- well, it
would be awkward, and IMO slightly disrespectful to the religious
among us, myself included. I'm not sure I could contribute in good
faith if religion was completely taboo. So I think people should be
able to mention religion as a way of explaining why they feel a
certain way, without feeling like this completely obligates the rest
of us; if we decide to do a certain thing it will be because it's
what's best for the awards and represents the wants and needs of the
majority of those involved.

3. General discussion of spirituality in Tolkien: I can't see where
this would come up. I also wouldn't expect us to discuss other hot
topics, everything from Tolkien's politics to whether Balrogs have
wings. It's just not that kind of list.

4. Discussion of the spirituality of a particular story - There are
some stories where some religious or spiritual truth (not always
native to M-e! We all have a tendency to imprint M-e with our own
views, including our religion). I think a good review could comment on
this, depending on how the story puts the religious material to use.
For example, in Dwim's piece "Not in Our Stars" she quotes St. Paul,
perhaps in a rather un-orthodox context but it's there nonetheless. If
I were to review this story I'd probably comment on this aspect,
because it's one of the ones that I found most moving. I'd have a
major problem if we outlawed this kind of comment, because I think it
is a large part of a lot of stories. But I don't think we need to have
continued discussion of these comments; we don't have continued
discussion of *any* review comments, unless it's breaking one of the
awards rules (i.e., posted outside the award period, or with too long
of quotes, or whatever). So I don't think we'll have this problem
anyway.

Ainae, am I correct in my assumptions here? I'm just trying to figure
out what I can and can't do.

Marta
--
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."

I'll say, right now, that what I don't want is debate on this issue. Why?
Because I don't want a repeat of the ugliness from before. Now, onto
Marta's clarification.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marta Layton [mailto:melayton@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 6:21 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] irony


> Ainae,
>
> Can I just clarify?
>
> 1. Obviously, general discussion of real-world religion is
> out? I can completely understand that, and have a hard time
> seeing where it would come up anyway.

Yes. Because the Tolkien fandom is a very diverse one. And, as I said,
there are other places for that discussion. It doesn't have to happen here.

> 2. Discussion of "values", while not tied to a particular
> religion, often have strong religious undertones. I remember
> some of this coming up when I suggested we allow NC17
> stories; some people said they didn't want them, and giving
> their reason as in part religious. I didn't have a problem
> with this. I think the key here is mutual respect. If someone
> says they feel a certain way because of a religious feeling,
> we should definitely avoid questioning the validity of that
> religious belief (which I think everyone has done so far).
> But to say you can't mention religion at all in this context
> -- well, it would be awkward, and IMO slightly disrespectful
> to the religious among us, myself included. I'm not sure I
> could contribute in good faith if religion was completely
> taboo. So I think people should be able to mention religion
> as a way of explaining why they feel a certain way, without
> feeling like this completely obligates the rest of us; if we
> decide to do a certain thing it will be because it's what's
> best for the awards and represents the wants and needs of the
> majority of those involved.

Honestly, I can't understand whether you are saying this is allowed or not
allowed. I say not, because that is exactly what started that fireball
rolling the last time. As for NC-17, I am a Christian, too, but that's not
why they aren't allowed. They arent' allowed here for the same reason they
aren't allowed at fanfiction.net. This is not and Adult group so it has to
be be free and clear for people under 18 to read everything here. That is
why.

> 3. General discussion of spirituality in Tolkien: I can't see
> where this would come up. I also wouldn't expect us to
> discuss other hot topics, everything from Tolkien's politics
> to whether Balrogs have wings. It's just not that kind of list.

Exactly. I wouldn't call it out of bounds so much as "it doesn't neede to
happen here". Take it somewhere else. This group isn't about a general
discussion of Tolkien or his spirituality. It's about awards for fanfiction
based on his writings involving the fictional setting of Middle-Earth.

> 4. Discussion of the spirituality of a particular story -
> There are some stories where some religious or spiritual
> truth (not always native to M-e! We all have a tendency to
> imprint M-e with our own views, including our religion). I
> think a good review could comment on this, depending on how
> the story puts the religious material to use.
> For example, in Dwim's piece "Not in Our Stars" she quotes
> St. Paul, perhaps in a rather un-orthodox context but it's
> there nonetheless. If I were to review this story I'd
> probably comment on this aspect, because it's one of the ones
> that I found most moving. I'd have a major problem if we
> outlawed this kind of comment, because I think it is a large
> part of a lot of stories. But I don't think we need to have
> continued discussion of these comments; we don't have
> continued discussion of *any* review comments, unless it's
> breaking one of the awards rules (i.e., posted outside the
> award period, or with too long of quotes, or whatever). So I
> don't think we'll have this problem anyway.

This is fine. If religion is part of the story and part of your comment,
there's not a problem with it.

> Ainae, am I correct in my assumptions here? I'm just trying
> to figure out what I can and can't do.

In what I understand of it. Yes.

Now, can we please move on?

--Ainaechoiriel

MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards

Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:12:29 -0600, Ainaechoiriel
<mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I'll say, right now, that what I don't want is debate on this issue. Why?
> Because I don't want a repeat of the ugliness from before. Now, onto
> Marta's clarification.
>

I don't want a repeat of the uginess, either. That's why I want
clarification; to know just what this group's stand is so I can act
accordingly.

<snip>

> > 1. Obviously, general discussion of real-world religion is
> > out? I can completely understand that, and have a hard time
> > seeing where it would come up anyway.
>
> Yes. Because the Tolkien fandom is a very diverse one. And, as I said,
> there are other places for that discussion. It doesn't have to happen here.

I agree absolutely.

> > 2. Discussion of "values", while not tied to a particular
> > religion, often have strong religious undertones. I remember
> > some of this coming up when I suggested we allow NC17
> > stories; some people said they didn't want them, and giving
> > their reason as in part religious. I didn't have a problem
> > with this. I think the key here is mutual respect. If someone
> > says they feel a certain way because of a religious feeling,
> > we should definitely avoid questioning the validity of that
> > religious belief (which I think everyone has done so far).
> > But to say you can't mention religion at all in this context
> > -- well, it would be awkward, and IMO slightly disrespectful
> > to the religious among us, myself included. I'm not sure I
> > could contribute in good faith if religion was completely
> > taboo. So I think people should be able to mention religion
> > as a way of explaining why they feel a certain way, without
> > feeling like this completely obligates the rest of us; if we
> > decide to do a certain thing it will be because it's what's
> > best for the awards and represents the wants and needs of the
> > majority of those involved.
>
> Honestly, I can't understand whether you are saying this is allowed or not
> allowed. I say not, because that is exactly what started that fireball
> rolling the last time. As for NC-17, I am a Christian, too, but that's not
> why they aren't allowed. They arent' allowed here for the same reason they
> aren't allowed at fanfiction.net. This is not and Adult group so it has to
> be be free and clear for people under 18 to read everything here. That is
> why.
>

Sorry, let me try to clarify. Let's take the NC-17 example.

Say someone proposes that we allow NC-17 stories. People might post in
about whether they are in favor or against allowing NC-17 stories to
compete. Someone might say something like:

"I don't want NC-17 stories to compete because they conflict with my
religious beliefs, and I'd rather not have my stories compete against
them."

This hypothetical person has expressed a personal opinion and has
mentioned their religion. As far as I'm concerned, that's fine, but
there are several things that aren't fine from this point:

* Debating the theological point. A second person shouldn't reply
saying that NC-17 material shouldn't conflict with the original
poster's religious beliefs.

* The original poster's statement shouldn't be given more (or less)
consideration because they happen to be religious. It's just a
strongly held opinion, no more or less valid than someone else's
strongly held opinion.

Basically, I think a person should be able to mention that they
disagree with something and give their reason for disagreeing. If
their reason derives from their religion, that's fine. But I don't
think we have to debate the validity of that opinion, and we certainly
shouldn't base policy decisions just on what a certain religion says.
Like you said, we don't allow NC17 material, but that's not just
because you or anyone else is religious; there are lots of factors.

Is that any clearer?

> > 3. General discussion of spirituality in Tolkien: I can't see
> > where this would come up. I also wouldn't expect us to
> > discuss other hot topics, everything from Tolkien's politics
> > to whether Balrogs have wings. It's just not that kind of list.
>
> Exactly. I wouldn't call it out of bounds so much as "it doesn't neede to
> happen here". Take it somewhere else. This group isn't about a general
> discussion of Tolkien or his spirituality. It's about awards for
> fanfiction
> based on his writings involving the fictional setting of Middle-Earth.
>

Right, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

> > 4. Discussion of the spirituality of a particular story -
> > There are some stories where some religious or spiritual
> > truth (not always native to M-e! We all have a tendency to
> > imprint M-e with our own views, including our religion). I
> > think a good review could comment on this, depending on how
> > the story puts the religious material to use.
> > For example, in Dwim's piece "Not in Our Stars" she quotes
> > St. Paul, perhaps in a rather un-orthodox context but it's
> > there nonetheless. If I were to review this story I'd
> > probably comment on this aspect, because it's one of the ones
> > that I found most moving. I'd have a major problem if we
> > outlawed this kind of comment, because I think it is a large
> > part of a lot of stories. But I don't think we need to have
> > continued discussion of these comments; we don't have
> > continued discussion of *any* review comments, unless it's
> > breaking one of the awards rules (i.e., posted outside the
> > award period, or with too long of quotes, or whatever). So I
> > don't think we'll have this problem anyway.
>
> This is fine. If religion is part of the story and part of your comment,
> there's not a problem with it.
>

Okay, thanks. I just wanted to check and make sure.

> > Ainae, am I correct in my assumptions here? I'm just trying
> > to figure out what I can and can't do.
>
> In what I understand of it. Yes.
>

Thanks. I'm sorry I wasn't clear before.

> Now, can we please move on?
>

Sure. You don't have to even answer this post publicly, or at all, if
you don't want to. I just like to make sure I understand the situation
as best I can. I'm not trying to be contentious, and I don't think
this needs to be a sticking point.

Marta
--
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."