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I am probably asking a really evident question here, but here goes...

Will there be some automatic way for any stories that won last year to be recognised as not being allowed to be nominated this year?

I know that most stories would logically be nominated to the same categories this year as they would have been last year, but it is possible they might not be.

For example, *I* might think a particular story I just discovered this past year is a wonderful story about Merry and would nominate it as a hobbit race story, whereas someone else may have nominated it last year as a LoTR Fellowship sort of story because it also features those characters. And maybe it won an award in that category but I don't know to look there for it.

Do we need to check this ourselves somehow before making our nominations? And if so, what is the best way to do this?

Will authors be asked in their letters if any of their newly nominated stories won last year, and so are not eligible?

Thanks!

Mari

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, MarigoldCotton@a... wrote:

> I am probably asking a really evident question here, but here

goes...

>
> Will there be some automatic way for any stories that won last year

to be recognised as not being allowed to be nominated this year?

>
> I know that most stories would logically be nominated to the same

categories this year as they would have been last year, but it is
possible they might not be.

We took a great leap forward technologically this year by adding the
MEFA2005 site, but unfortunately, it doesn't do that.

You do have to check yourself if a story was previously nominated.
It can't run this year if...
a: It was nominated as complete last year (in any category)
b: It was nominated as a WIP last year and is still incomplete now.

You should also check to see if someone beat you to it this year.

The easiest way I know to check is to do the following 2 things:
1) a) Log onto the Yahoo site. Click on Databases, open the Stories
Nominated in previous years database and put the story title (leave
off the "The" or "A" at the beginning) in the search box and click Go.
b) (For WIPs) Go into the 2004 WIPs database and do the same.
2) Log into the MEFA2005 site. Click Browse Stories, and then either
a) Put the title in the search box (minus "The" or "A")
or
b) Pull up the Author from the Author pulldown menu and look at
that person's stories.

> For example, *I* might think a particular story I just discovered

this past year is a wonderful story about Merry and would nominate it
as a hobbit race story, whereas someone else may have nominated it
last year as a LoTR Fellowship sort of story because it also features
those characters. And maybe it won an award in that category but I
don't know to look there for it.

That's why it's easiest to seach the databases. You don't have to
know which category it was in first. Alternately, you could pull up
the http://home.earthlink.net/~ainae/mefa/2004comments.html page and
just search the left-hand collumn for the author and look at the
stories listed under their name.

> Do we need to check this ourselves somehow before making our

nominations? And if so, what is the best way to do this?

See above.

> Will authors be asked in their letters if any of their newly

nominated stories won last year, and so are not eligible?

No. Ineligible stories nominated are simply withdrawn. If an author
gets notified before we realize it's ineligible, then we will notify
the author.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

Hi Marigold,

On 6 Apr 2005, at 12:30, MarigoldCotton@aol.com wrote:

> I am probably asking a really evident question here, but here goes...
>

No stupid questions here. Don't be afraid to ask about anything that
confuses you.

> Will there be some automatic way for any stories that won last year
> to be recognised as not being allowed to be nominated this year?
>

Just to clarify, it's not just stories that on are ineligible. If it
was nominated last year, it's not eligible this year, with one
exception: if it was a WIP this year and is now complete, it can be
nominated as a completed story.

I am fairly familiar with last year's nominations, and when I see one
that was nominated last year I let Ainae know and she removes this
year's nomination. (Unless it was a WIP last year and is completed now,
of course.) I expect at some point we'll compare this year's
nominations to last year's and remove all the duplicates.

> I know that most stories would logically be nominated to the same
> categories this year as they would have been last year, but it is
> possible they might not be.
>
> For example, *I* might think a particular story I just discovered
> this past year is a wonderful story about Merry and would nominate it
> as a hobbit race story, whereas someone else may have nominated it
> last year as a LoTR Fellowship sort of story because it also features
> those characters. And maybe it won an award in that category but I
> don't know to look there for it.

> Do we need to check this ourselves somehow before making our
> nominations? And if so, what is the best way to do this?
>

It would be nice if nominators did check. I do this by going to
http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/Authnoms.html. This lists all the
stories an author had nominated in a given category; I use the web
browser's find function. So if I wanted to find all the stories of
yours that were nominated last year. I would go to the above website,
type <control>-f (on a Windows machine) or <apple>-f (on a Mac), and
type in your name. Clicking next brings me to a list of your stories
entered in Hobbits/Drabble last year ("Mother Gamgee", "Resting Place",
"Now and Then"). Doing it again takes me to the piece you cowrote with
Kookaburra and Llinos for LOTR ("Moria's Revenge"). And doing it again
takes me back to Hobbit/Drabbles, so I know I got all the stories you
had nominated last year.

This way you can check whether a certain story was nominated last year.
But if you make a mistake and nominate something that was nominated
last year, the staff will try to catch it, too.

> Will authors be asked in their letters if any of their newly
> nominated stories won last year, and so are not eligible?
>

No, they're not asked in the nomination letter, but if they tell us a
story was nominated last year we'd delete the nomination.

Marta
*****
On the other hand, you have different fingers.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

> Hi Marigold,
> It would be nice if nominators did check. I do this by going to
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa/Authnoms.html. This lists all the
> stories an author had nominated in a given category;

Huh. I forgot I even had that page. ;-)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

So I know that I have it straight, a story cannot be nominated again even if it did not win an award last year correct?

I am thinking that it might not be that hard to check if a story has been previously nominated *this* year, as it is only the second year of the award, but folks next year will have to check through two years of prior nominations (and there are going to be even more this year than last I think) and the folks after that three years of prior nominations. That is going to be a lot of stories to check through, but hopefully they will all be available in one spot?

Also, as there is no limit on the number of nominations that we can all make, and some folks have quite a lot of nominations (Dwim, Marta, and myself included, and probably a lot of other members as well) by not allowing stories that have been nominated but were not winners to run again in another year, that is eliminating a really large body of stories.

If we have some categories that have lots and lots of stories in them this year, folks are probably not going to be able to read all of them. Most of us weren't able to read everything last year, even just in our favourite categories. If those categories are even bigger this year it will be even harder. So it is my worry that a lot of nominated stories might not even get read, but then can't have another chance next year...

That's just an observation on my part, just thinking out loud really, lol!

Thanks for anwering my question so quickly!

Mari
--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK

Hi Marigold,

Me again...

> So I know that I have it straight, a story cannot be nominated again
> even if it did not win an award last year correct?
>

Right. If it was nominated last year, it's not eligible this year.
(Except for the exception involving WIPs, but I don't think that's the
issue here.)

> I am thinking that it might not be that hard to check if a story has
> been previously nominated *this* year, as it is only the second year
> of the award, but folks next year will have to check through two years
> of prior nominations (and there are going to be even more this year
> than last I think) and the folks after that three years of prior
> nominations. That is going to be a lot of stories to check through,
> but hopefully they will all be available in one spot?
>

Excellent point. I'll try to remember that for next year, but it will
be much easier on people if all of the nominations for 2004 and 2005
are available in one place before nominations for 2006 open.

> Also, as there is no limit on the number of nominations that we can
> all make, and some folks have quite a lot of nominations (Dwim, Marta,
> and myself included, and probably a lot of other members as well)

Guilty... ;-)

> by not allowing stories that have been nominated but were not winners
> to run again in another year, that is eliminating a really large body
> of stories.
>
> If we have some categories that have lots and lots of stories in them
> this year, folks are probably not going to be able to read all of
> them. Most of us weren't able to read everything last year, even just
> in our favourite categories. If those categories are even bigger this
> year it will be even harder. So it is my worry that a lot of nominated
> stories might not even get read, but then can't have another chance
> next year...

I understand your concern, and it's a reasonable one. But look at it
this way:

Last year a lot of stories were nominated, so many that you didn't have
time to read them this year. If we allow all of the stories from last
year that didn't win to compete again, we're only eliminating three
pieces for every category and subcategory. Let's be generous and say
Hobbits had 10 subcategories -- that's 33 winners, 3*10 subcategories,
plus 3 winners in the main category.

I just checked SOA, and 38 stories have been updated since April 4. Or
to give a more hobbit-specific suggestion,, 33 stories featuring Sam
have been posted since March 26. That's what, less than two weeks ago?
If only the winners are ineligible to be nominated, that means this
year's categories will be larger than last year's so more will go
unread. The year after, the problem will be even worse.

Or at least that's my feeling. Feel free to disagree!This may be
something worth looking at again for next year.

Marta
*****
On the other hand, you have different fingers.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

> Hi Marigold,
>

That is going to be a lot of stories to check through,

> > but hopefully they will all be available in one spot?
> >
>
> Excellent point. I'll try to remember that for next year, but it

will

> be much easier on people if all of the nominations for 2004 and

2005

> are available in one place before nominations for 2006 open.

Absolutely. Which is why that one database isn't named 2004
Nominations but "Stories previously nominated" or something like
that. The WIPs should probably be renamed as well. And, hey, if I
can find an easy way to add all the nominations from this year to
that web page I'd forgotten I had (Authnoms), I'll do it.

> > Also, as there is no limit on the number of nominations that we

can

> > all make, and some folks have quite a lot of nominations (Dwim,

Marta,

> > and myself included, and probably a lot of other members as well)
>
> Guilty... ;-)
>
> > by not allowing stories that have been nominated but were not

winners

> > to run again in another year, that is eliminating a really large

body

> > of stories.

If don't disallow them, we'd have an exponential increase every year
until a whole year wouldn't be a long enough time to read them all.

> > If we have some categories that have lots and lots of stories in

them

> > this year, folks are probably not going to be able to read all of
> > them. Most of us weren't able to read everything last year, even

just

> > in our favourite categories. If those categories are even bigger

this

> > year it will be even harder. So it is my worry that a lot of

nominated

> > stories might not even get read, but then can't have another

chance

> > next year...
>
> I understand your concern, and it's a reasonable one. But look at

it

> this way:
>
> Last year a lot of stories were nominated, so many that you didn't

have

> time to read them this year. If we allow all of the stories from

last

> year that didn't win to compete again, we're only eliminating three
> pieces for every category and subcategory. Let's be generous and

say

> Hobbits had 10 subcategories -- that's 33 winners, 3*10

subcategories,

> plus 3 winners in the main category.

And that left how many stories? Quite a few. Add those to all the
new stories nominated this year for the Hobbit category (and remember
we still have more than a month to go on Nominations) and it will be
even larger.

> I just checked SOA, and 38 stories have been updated since April 4.

Or

> to give a more hobbit-specific suggestion,, 33 stories featuring

Sam

> have been posted since March 26. That's what, less than two weeks

ago?

> If only the winners are ineligible to be nominated, that means this
> year's categories will be larger than last year's so more will go
> unread. The year after, the problem will be even worse.

Exactly. And remember that I borrowed this system from ASC. I didn't
make any changes to this system from theirs because I didn't like
theirs. I only changed where I had to to fit this fandom and our
configuration (like not having our own archive). I think it's good
to have a limit. Not on the number of stories nominated. (There's no
limit on how many Trek stories can be written in a year.) But on how
many run each year. (In ASC this is done by capping both ends of the
year. Nothing that was posted after Jan 31st goes in the present
awards, and nothing before Feb. 1 of the previous year. With the
exception of WIPs or major revisions, but that's getting off on a
tangent.) We don't have time to read 36,000 stories. Even with
Reading Season. We have to have some sort of limit. If we allow any
story from previous years that didn't win plus any new stories, it
would just grow and grow and grow each year.

And also look at it this way, though it may be hard to do so, since
there is no quality requirement, some not-so-wonderful stories do get
nominated. There is the possibility that some stories didn't win
because they didn't deserve to. Letting them go round and round
again year after year won't change that.

Everyone has exactly the same chances here. Everyone's story has the
same chance of getting nominated for a MEFA during the lifetime of
the MEFAs: Once as a WIP, once as a Complete. Everyone's story gets
at least 3 months to be read by the voting members. Every member is
free to read only the stories they want to.

You may find in the nominations the most popular story on HASA. And
you may find a story buried in some forgotten archive or only on a
the nominator's (and author's) personal web space. Either one has
the same chance of winning.

And remember also, there's nothing stopping anyone from reading
nominated stories right now. (You may wish to start only with
Completed nominations to be sure they will be on the final ballots.)
You can have the maximum time for reading: 4 1/2 months before Voting
Season. Add another 1 1/2 months of Voting Season, and you have 6
months to read. And I think you'll surprise yourself. I know I did.
I certainly didn't plan on reading several hundred stories last
year. The same way I didn't plan on reading any TNG stories for the
ASC's this year, but I did. And I read some DS9 ones that didn't
feature Dr. Bashir, and some ENTs that didn't feature Reed. Heck, I
might just find myself reading a VOY story...No, no, I must draw the
line somewhere.....

Anyway, last year, I planned to concentrate on Elves. But I ended up
reading quite a few Hobbits and Men, and Dramas, and Adventures, and
Humors, and Mysteries, and Silms.... See where I'm going with this?
I, for one, will miss the deadlines of voting in sections. They
pushed me, motivated me, to hurry and read in this one category so I
can finish and have time to read in that one. Some didn't prefer it
that way and a vote during Post-Mortem means we won't separate Voting
Season this year. But I know I will miss it, and it will be
interesting to see if it lessens how many stories I get read by not
having it this year.

Anyway, a long ramble later, there are good reasons not to allow
every story to go around and around until it wins. And partly for
the reason stated in the question: too many stories. There would
definitely be too many if we didn't put a limit on.

So, dictatorial decision here: This won't change.

(For new members who weren't here for the post-mortem. I made some
decisions dictatorially, but left many others up for democracy, ie.
polls. You can find the list of Non-negotiables in the Files section
of the Yahoo site, under the Rules and FAQs folder.)

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

All of that makes perfect sense, thanks!

Mari

>
>
>--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>> Hi Marigold,
>>
>
>That is going to be a lot of stories to check through,
>> > but hopefully they will all be available in one spot?
>> >
>>
>> Excellent point. I'll try to remember that for next year, but it
>will
>> be much easier on people if all of the nominations for 2004 and
>2005
>> are available in one place before nominations for 2006 open.
>
>Absolutely.  Which is why that one database isn't named 2004
>Nominations but "Stories previously nominated" or something like
>that. The WIPs should probably be renamed as well.  And, hey, if I
>can find an easy way to add all the nominations from this year to
>that web page I'd forgotten I had (Authnoms), I'll do it.
>
>> >  Also, as there is no limit on the number of nominations that we
>can
>> > all make, and some folks have quite a lot of nominations (Dwim,
>Marta,
>> > and myself included, and probably a lot of other members as well)
>>
>> Guilty... ;-)
>>
>> > by not allowing stories that have been nominated but were not
>winners
>> > to run again in another year, that is eliminating a really large
>body
>> > of stories.
>
>If don't disallow them, we'd have an exponential increase every year
>until a whole year wouldn't be a long enough time to read them all.
>
>> >  If we have some categories that have lots and lots of stories in
>them
>> > this year, folks are probably not going to be able to read all of
>> > them. Most of us weren't able to read everything last year, even
>just
>> > in our favourite categories. If those categories are even bigger
>this
>> > year it will be even harder. So it is my worry that a lot of
>nominated
>> > stories might not even get read, but then can't have another
>chance
>> > next year...
>>
>> I understand your concern, and it's a reasonable one. But look at
>it
>> this way:
>>
>> Last year a lot of stories were nominated, so many that you didn't
>have
>> time to read them this year. If we allow all of the stories from
>last
>> year that didn't win to compete again, we're only eliminating three
>> pieces for every category and subcategory. Let's be generous and
>say
>> Hobbits had 10 subcategories -- that's 33 winners, 3*10
>subcategories,
>> plus 3 winners in the main category.
>
>And that left how many stories?  Quite a few.  Add those to all the
>new stories nominated this year for the Hobbit category (and remember
>we still have more than a month to go on Nominations) and it will be
>even larger.
>
>> I just checked SOA, and 38 stories have been updated since April 4.
>Or
>> to give a more hobbit-specific suggestion,, 33 stories featuring
>Sam
>> have been posted since March 26. That's what, less than two weeks
>ago?
>> If only the winners are ineligible to be nominated, that means this
>> year's categories will be larger than last year's so more will go
>> unread. The year after, the problem will be even worse.
>
>Exactly.  And remember that I borrowed this system from ASC. I didn't
>make any changes to this system from theirs because I didn't like
>theirs.  I only changed where I had to to fit this fandom and our
>configuration (like not having our own archive).  I think it's good
>to have a limit.  Not on the number of stories nominated. (There's no
>limit on how many Trek stories can be written in a year.)  But on how
>many run each year.  (In ASC this is done by capping both ends of the
>year.  Nothing that was posted after Jan 31st goes in the present
>awards, and nothing before Feb. 1 of the previous year.  With the
>exception of WIPs or major revisions, but that's getting off on a
>tangent.)  We don't have time to read 36,000 stories. Even with
>Reading Season.  We have to have some sort of limit.  If we allow any
>story from previous years that didn't win plus any new stories, it
>would just grow and grow and grow each year.
>
>And also look at it this way, though it may be hard to do so, since
>there is no quality requirement, some not-so-wonderful stories do get
>nominated.  There is the possibility that some stories didn't win
>because they didn't deserve to.  Letting them go round and round
>again year after year won't change that.
>
>Everyone has exactly the same chances here.  Everyone's story has the
>same chance of getting nominated for a MEFA during the lifetime of
>the MEFAs: Once as a WIP, once as a Complete.  Everyone's story gets
>at least 3 months to be read by the voting members.  Every member is
>free to read only the stories they want to.  
>
>You may find in the nominations the most popular story on HASA.  And
>you may find a story buried in some forgotten archive or only on a
>the nominator's (and author's) personal web space.  Either one has
>the same chance of winning.
>
>And remember also, there's nothing stopping anyone from reading
>nominated stories right now.  (You may wish to start only with
>Completed nominations to be sure they will be on the final ballots.)  
>You can have the maximum time for reading: 4 1/2 months before Voting
>Season.  Add another 1 1/2 months of Voting Season, and you have 6
>months to read.  And I think you'll surprise yourself. I know I did.  
>I certainly didn't plan on reading several hundred stories last
>year.  The same way I didn't plan on reading any TNG stories for the
>ASC's this year, but I did.  And I read some DS9 ones that didn't
>feature Dr. Bashir, and some ENTs that didn't feature Reed.  Heck, I
>might just find myself reading a VOY story...No, no, I must draw the
>line somewhere.....
>
>Anyway, last year, I planned to concentrate on Elves.  But I ended up
>reading quite a few Hobbits and Men, and Dramas, and Adventures, and
>Humors, and Mysteries, and Silms.... See where I'm going with this?  
>I, for one, will miss the deadlines of voting in sections.  They
>pushed me, motivated me, to hurry and read in this one category so I
>can finish and have time to read in that one.  Some didn't prefer it
>that way and a vote during Post-Mortem means we won't separate Voting
>Season this year.  But I know I will miss it, and it will be
>interesting to see if it lessens how many stories I get read by not
>having it this year.
>
>Anyway, a long ramble later, there are good reasons not to allow
>every story to go around and around until it wins.  And partly for
>the reason stated in the question: too many stories.  There would
>definitely be too many if we didn't put a limit on.
>
>So, dictatorial decision here: This won't change.
>
>(For new members who weren't here for the post-mortem. I made some
>decisions dictatorially, but left many others up for democracy, ie.
>polls.  You can find the list of Non-negotiables in the Files section
>of the Yahoo site, under the Rules and FAQs folder.)
>
>--Ainaechoiriel
>MEFA Admin and Founder
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigoldsredbook.crickhollow.net/

Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/

Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/

Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Sam, in Mordor, RoTK