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I've corrected quite a few reviews that had excessive quoting, I
think I did ten this morning. You should see the /blockquote/ tags
and a ADMIN note if one has been corrected. There were a couple that
were close but ok, and I noted those as well, that they were ok.

The rule says, no more than two lines, and I'm capping that at 100
characters. It may or may not make a difference on the points for
that story, depending on where in the point range the character
counts falls.

If you know you've used quotes in your reviews, please go back and
skim over your reviews and let me know if there is one that needs to
be checked or corrected. Or if you notice one of someone else's,
please let me know and I'll check it - it's fine to post here or
email me privately at Sulriel@htcomp.net - no one is in trouble, I
even had to correct one of my own.

Play Hard, Play Fair, Have fun. -

Sulriel

Not to be unduly querulous when this is clearly one of those judgment
calls that won't satisfy everyone no matter how hard the admins try,
but where's the 100 characters coming from for two lines of quote? In
a Word doc, I count a minimum of 93 characters fitting in a single
line. Naturally, there'll be blank spaces when you have a real
sentence, so it won't hit that maximum but cutting off at 100
characters is like saying you really can only quote about 75% of one line.

Dwim

>
> I've corrected quite a few reviews that had excessive quoting, I
> think I did ten this morning. You should see the /blockquote/ tags
> and a ADMIN note if one has been corrected. There were a couple that
> were close but ok, and I noted those as well, that they were ok.
>
> The rule says, no more than two lines, and I'm capping that at 100
> characters. It may or may not make a difference on the points for
> that story, depending on where in the point range the character
> counts falls.
>
> If you know you've used quotes in your reviews, please go back and
> skim over your reviews and let me know if there is one that needs to
> be checked or corrected. Or if you notice one of someone else's,
> please let me know and I'll check it - it's fine to post here or
> email me privately at Sulriel@h... - no one is in trouble, I
> even had to correct one of my own.
>
> Play Hard, Play Fair, Have fun. -
>
> Sulriel

> > I've corrected quite a few reviews that had excessive quoting, I
> > think I did ten this morning. You should see the /blockquote/ tags
> > and a ADMIN note if one has been corrected. There were a couple that
> > were close but ok, and I noted those as well, that they were ok.
> >
> > The rule says, no more than two lines, and I'm capping that at 100
> > characters. It may or may not make a difference on the points for
> > that story, depending on where in the point range the character
> > counts falls.
> >
> > If you know you've used quotes in your reviews, please go back and
> > skim over your reviews and let me know if there is one that needs to
> > be checked or corrected.

By "corrected", does this mean that you can alter the review if you
have it as draft or tentative? If it's finalized, does it mean you
just have to accept the blockquote, or can you submit a slightly
altered review that brings the quoting back down to the 100 character
limit?

Dwim

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

> Not to be unduly querulous when this is clearly one of those

judgment> calls that won't satisfy everyone no matter how hard the
admins try,> but where's the 100 characters coming from for two lines
of quote? In> a Word doc, I count a minimum of 93 characters fitting
in a single > line. Naturally, there'll be blank spaces when you have
a real > sentence, so it won't hit that maximum but cutting off at 100

> characters is like saying you really can only quote about 75% of

one line.

>
>

a judgement call, but not entirely subjective.

my MSWord template is set to pro standards of courier 12 pt w/one
inch margins. I spot checked several full lines of text and they
ranged from 48 to 51 characters, so I decided to average that to
50/char per lines = 100 characters for two lines.

I realize fanfic and pro are worlds apart, and I apologize for
imposing one on the other - but I felt like this is something that
needed to move forward so I made the call.

This is something that will need to be discussed and clarified post-m
for next year, but at this point in this years awards, we'll muddle
forward as best we can.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

>
> > > I've corrected quite a few reviews that had excessive quoting,

I > > > think I did ten this morning. You should see
the /blockquote/ tags > > > and a ADMIN note if one has been
corrected. There were a couple that > > > were close but ok, and I
noted those as well, that they were ok.

> > >
> > > The rule says, no more than two lines, and I'm capping that at

100 > > > characters. It may or may not make a difference on the
points for > > > that story, depending on where in the point range
the character > > > counts falls.

> > >
> > > If you know you've used quotes in your reviews, please go back

and > > > skim over your reviews and let me know if there is one that
needs to > > > be checked or corrected.

>


> By "corrected", does this mean that you can alter the review if you
> have it as draft or tentative? If it's finalized, does it mean you
> just have to accept the blockquote, or can you submit a slightly
> altered review that brings the quoting back down to the 100

character> limit?

>
> Dwim

I can't see, and wouldn't alter if I could, the draft and tent votes.

Once it's finalized, if it has more than two lines and/or 100
characters of quoted text, I'll /blockquote/ the additional
lines/characters - they'll still be readable in the review, but those
characters won't count toward the points total.

You can't resubmit a finalized vote. - another exec decsion made on
the fly that needs to be addressed before things gear up for next
year.

- out for a ride, if I survive the flight and the heat exhaustion,
I'll answer anything else when I get back.

Sulriel.

I think what might make part of the difference is that the page
width/line length on Word is different than it is on the review panel.
I copied a single line of text from one of my own reviews and copied
it into Word -- it took two lines on Word for 116 characters.

I cannot speak for the other reviews but the quote on the original
review was of multiple lines and 500+ characters so that did indeed
make a difference to the points.

Lea

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "sulriel" <Sulriel@h...> wrote:
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> wrote:
> > Not to be unduly querulous when this is clearly one of those
> judgment> calls that won't satisfy everyone no matter how hard the
> admins try,> but where's the 100 characters coming from for two lines
> of quote? In> a Word doc, I count a minimum of 93 characters fitting
> in a single > line. Naturally, there'll be blank spaces when you have
> a real > sentence, so it won't hit that maximum but cutting off at 100
> > characters is like saying you really can only quote about 75% of
> one line.
> >
> >
>
>
> a judgement call, but not entirely subjective.
>
> my MSWord template is set to pro standards of courier 12 pt w/one
> inch margins. I spot checked several full lines of text and they
> ranged from 48 to 51 characters, so I decided to average that to
> 50/char per lines = 100 characters for two lines.
>
> I realize fanfic and pro are worlds apart, and I apologize for
> imposing one on the other - but I felt like this is something that
> needed to move forward so I made the call.
>
> This is something that will need to be discussed and clarified post-m
> for next year, but at this point in this years awards, we'll muddle
> forward as best we can.

I read the word "line" to mean sentence, in this instance, but the 100
character limit seems reasonable to me.

On 8/25/05, Leaward <leaward_l@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think what might make part of the difference is that the page
> width/line length on Word is different than it is on the review panel.
> I copied a single line of text from one of my own reviews and copied
> it into Word -- it took two lines on Word for 116 characters.
>
> I cannot speak for the other reviews but the quote on the original
> review was of multiple lines and 500+ characters so that did indeed
> make a difference to the points.
>
> Lea
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "sulriel" <Sulriel@h...> wrote:
> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Not to be unduly querulous when this is clearly one of those
> > judgment> calls that won't satisfy everyone no matter how hard the
> > admins try,> but where's the 100 characters coming from for two lines
> > of quote? In> a Word doc, I count a minimum of 93 characters fitting
> > in a single > line. Naturally, there'll be blank spaces when you have
> > a real > sentence, so it won't hit that maximum but cutting off at 100
> > > characters is like saying you really can only quote about 75% of
> > one line.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > a judgement call, but not entirely subjective.
> >
> > my MSWord template is set to pro standards of courier 12 pt w/one
> > inch margins. I spot checked several full lines of text and they
> > ranged from 48 to 51 characters, so I decided to average that to
> > 50/char per lines = 100 characters for two lines.
> >
> > I realize fanfic and pro are worlds apart, and I apologize for
> > imposing one on the other - but I felt like this is something that
> > needed to move forward so I made the call.
> >
> > This is something that will need to be discussed and clarified post-m
> > for next year, but at this point in this years awards, we'll muddle
> > forward as best we can.
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Leaward" <leaward_l@y...> wrote:

> I think what might make part of the difference is that the page
> width/line length on Word is different than it is on the review panel.
> I copied a single line of text from one of my own reviews and copied
> it into Word -- it took two lines on Word for 116 characters.
>
> I cannot speak for the other reviews but the quote on the original
> review was of multiple lines and 500+ characters so that did indeed
> make a difference to the points.
>
> Lea

The problem here is that what we're trying to avoid is that lovely
phenomenon of "padding". Every year, you ding some student for padding
his/her essay with totally irrelevant or unexplained stuff, for
"hiding behind the quotes", that is there only to reach a page limit
and to avoid showing off that the student doesn't understand the
material. It's a pain in the rear to deal with because padding isn't
reducible to a cut and dried standard, which is what all the students
want; you have to read the paper and see whether anything significant
is actually being made of the quoted material to justify its inclusion.

So it's a problem of quantitative standards imposing an artificial
limit on a something that is properly judged qualitatively. I don't
see that there's a way around this problem by refining the
quantitative end of the standard--it's just a clash of
incommensurables. Either quotes count to a degree, and we have to deal
with artificial limits that are going to be broken because 100
characters often times can't even express a complete thought if the
author is writing a couple of long but noteworthy sentences, or else
they don't count at all, and every quote is blockquoted, but we can
use them as much as we like.

That would be how I see the options playing out. Hopefully in
post-mortem, we'll be able to thrash it out properly for next year.

Dwim

It's already set out in the rules ...

V: Voting:

Section C: Method:

*7. Quoting of nominate material will only be allowed "in-line" and
must be no more than 2 sentences/lines.

So Rabidsamfan is correct. No more than 2 sentences and they must be
'in-line.'

The original review that came to our attention quoted approximately 6
paragraphs of speech and description and came well over 500
characters. But since then other quotes have been pointed out (I must
admit I asked Sulriel to cut down two of my own reviews where the
quote was a single sentence and it was in-line but rambled for for
over three lines. In one case, it made no point difference, in the
other it made a single point difference.) I think the idea is to make
it fair ... and not pad the reviews simply to get the points up.




--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

>
> The problem here is that what we're trying to avoid is that lovely
> phenomenon of "padding". Every year, you ding some student for padding
> his/her essay with totally irrelevant or unexplained stuff, for
> "hiding behind the quotes", that is there only to reach a page limit
> and to avoid showing off that the student doesn't understand the
> material. It's a pain in the rear to deal with because padding isn't
> reducible to a cut and dried standard, which is what all the students
> want; you have to read the paper and see whether anything significant
> is actually being made of the quoted material to justify its inclusion.
>
> So it's a problem of quantitative standards imposing an artificial
> limit on a something that is properly judged qualitatively. I don't
> see that there's a way around this problem by refining the
> quantitative end of the standard--it's just a clash of
> incommensurables. Either quotes count to a degree, and we have to deal
> with artificial limits that are going to be broken because 100
> characters often times can't even express a complete thought if the
> author is writing a couple of long but noteworthy sentences, or else
> they don't count at all, and every quote is blockquoted, but we can
> use them as much as we like.
>
> That would be how I see the options playing out. Hopefully in
> post-mortem, we'll be able to thrash it out properly for next year.
>
> Dwim

Maybe next year we could just always put the quotations we want into the
/blockquote/ tags so that quotations don't count in the voting at all, no
matter what the length of the quotation. That neatly destroys any desire to
quote superflously and makes it easier on the admins at the same time. Just
remind us how to tag on the actual review page so we see the info about how
quotations should be formatted every single time we write a review.

On 8/25/05, Leaward <leaward_l@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It's already set out in the rules ...
>
> V: Voting:
>
> Section C: Method:
>
> *7. Quoting of nominate material will only be allowed "in-line" and
> must be no more than 2 sentences/lines.
>
> So Rabidsamfan is correct. No more than 2 sentences and they must be
> 'in-line.'
>
> The original review that came to our attention quoted approximately 6
> paragraphs of speech and description and came well over 500
> characters. But since then other quotes have been pointed out (I must
> admit I asked Sulriel to cut down two of my own reviews where the
> quote was a single sentence and it was in-line but rambled for for
> over three lines. In one case, it made no point difference, in the
> other it made a single point difference.) I think the idea is to make
> it fair ... and not pad the reviews simply to get the points up.
>
>
>
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > The problem here is that what we're trying to avoid is that lovely
> > phenomenon of "padding". Every year, you ding some student for padding
> > his/her essay with totally irrelevant or unexplained stuff, for
> > "hiding behind the quotes", that is there only to reach a page limit
> > and to avoid showing off that the student doesn't understand the
> > material. It's a pain in the rear to deal with because padding isn't
> > reducible to a cut and dried standard, which is what all the students
> > want; you have to read the paper and see whether anything significant
> > is actually being made of the quoted material to justify its inclusion.
> >
> > So it's a problem of quantitative standards imposing an artificial
> > limit on a something that is properly judged qualitatively. I don't
> > see that there's a way around this problem by refining the
> > quantitative end of the standard--it's just a clash of
> > incommensurables. Either quotes count to a degree, and we have to deal
> > with artificial limits that are going to be broken because 100
> > characters often times can't even express a complete thought if the
> > author is writing a couple of long but noteworthy sentences, or else
> > they don't count at all, and every quote is blockquoted, but we can
> > use them as much as we like.
> >
> > That would be how I see the options playing out. Hopefully in
> > post-mortem, we'll be able to thrash it out properly for next year.
> >
> > Dwim
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sulriel wrote:

>> If you know you've used quotes in your reviews, please go back and
>> skim over your reviews and let me know if there is one that needs to
>> be checked or corrected. Or if you notice one of someone else's,
>> please let me know and I'll check it - it's fine to post here or
>> email me privately at Sulriel@htcomp.net - no one is in trouble, I
>> even had to correct one of my own.

'Fessing up over here. I do have one finalized review with a quote of 135 characters. I swear I thought it met the two-line limit, but I forgot about the in-line stipulation. Anyway, I'm bad. Very, very bad. The good news, though, is that I checked it and the review has the same point value with or without the quote. But if you want to edit it anyway, it's my review for Lamiel's "The Deep Places." Sorry, Sulriel! I'm evil!!!
Thundera

----------------------------------
Insanity is just a state of mind.
HawkeyeýM*A*S*H
----------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <thunderalaura@j...> wrote:

> sulriel wrote:
> >> If you know you've used quotes in your reviews, please go back and
> >> skim over your reviews and let me know if there is one that needs to
> >> be checked or corrected. Or if you notice one of someone else's,
> >> please let me know and I'll check it - it's fine to post here or
> >> email me privately at Sulriel@h... - no one is in trouble, I
> >> even had to correct one of my own.

> 'Fessing up over here. I do have one finalized review with a quote

of 135 characters.

One? *One*? Pish tosh, I say! That's about as evil as apple pie. Ask
Sulriel for my list sometime...

Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:
Ask

> Sulriel for my list sometime...
>
> Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting

Dwim, how many stories would have NO reviews if not for you? Between
you and Marta, you've written 1/3 of all final reviews so far! I'm
going through my list and I have at least two out of only 70 that
exceed those guidelines (and I KNEW about the two sentences, just
never thought about the two 'lines' bit) I think there may be a few
more that exceed it as well. Don't worry about it.

Lea

Hmm, for a writer that was exceedingly unclear.

... two of only 70 that I've written ...

You've written how many? Over 500?

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Leaward" <leaward_l@y...> wrote:
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> wrote:
> Ask
> > Sulriel for my list sometime...
> >
> > Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting
>
> Dwim, how many stories would have NO reviews if not for you? Between
> you and Marta, you've written 1/3 of all final reviews so far! I'm
> going through my list and I have at least two out of only 70 that
> exceed those guidelines (and I KNEW about the two sentences, just
> never thought about the two 'lines' bit) I think there may be a few
> more that exceed it as well. Don't worry about it.
>
> Lea

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <thunderalaura@j...> wrote:

> 'Fessing up over here. I do have one finalized review with a quote

of 135 characters. I swear I thought it met the two-line limit, but I
forgot about the in-line stipulation. Anyway, I'm bad. Very, very bad.
The good news, though, is that I checked it and the review has the
same point value with or without the quote. But if you want to edit it
anyway, it's my review for Lamiel's "The Deep Places." Sorry, Sulriel!
I'm evil!!!

> Thundera

THANKS!! I'll go ahead and put a note on it.

Sulriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...> >
One? *One*? Pish tosh, I say! That's about as evil as apple pie. Ask

> Sulriel for my list sometime...
>
> Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting

YES!! LOL! I went out in the yard and threw rocks in a northerly
direction when I got your second list. *G*

Sulriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Leaward" <leaward_l@y...> wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> wrote:
> Ask
> > Sulriel for my list sometime...
> >
> > Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting
>
> Dwim, how many stories would have NO reviews if not for you? Between
> you and Marta, you've written 1/3 of all final reviews so far! I'm
> going through my list and I have at least two out of only 70 that
> exceed those guidelines (and I KNEW about the two sentences, just
> never thought about the two 'lines' bit) I think there may be a few
> more that exceed it as well. Don't worry about it.
>
> Lea

totally agree. Dwim's done a ton of reviews, I think probably the
highest reviewer and the limited quote rule should have been
emphasized from the beginning. It's too easy to get wrapped up in all
the good stuff and forget about rules. Like I said, I had to edit one
of my own and it was quite a bit over - it was just such a great line
I never thought about it adding points or anything except wanting to
say how much I appreciated it.

Sulriel

Yeah, that's usually why I want to quote something too. Some phrasing is
just so delicious you want to highlight it.
I'll admit that the "In line" part of the rule confused me, because it
didn't (and still doesn't) make sense to me. Depending on which computer I'm
at, what the font setting is, etc., I see wide variations in number of
characters per line. Which is one of the reasons I haven't done much
quoting, even when I was tempted strongly.
Ah, the difficulties of separating the baby and the bathwater...

On 8/26/05, sulriel <Sulriel@htcomp.net> wrote:
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Leaward" <leaward_l@y...> wrote:
> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> > wrote:
> > Ask
> > > Sulriel for my list sometime...
> > >
> > > Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting
> >
> > Dwim, how many stories would have NO reviews if not for you? Between
> > you and Marta, you've written 1/3 of all final reviews so far! I'm
> > going through my list and I have at least two out of only 70 that
> > exceed those guidelines (and I KNEW about the two sentences, just
> > never thought about the two 'lines' bit) I think there may be a few
> > more that exceed it as well. Don't worry about it.
> >
> > Lea
>
> totally agree. Dwim's done a ton of reviews, I think probably the
> highest reviewer and the limited quote rule should have been
> emphasized from the beginning. It's too easy to get wrapped up in all
> the good stuff and forget about rules. Like I said, I had to edit one
> of my own and it was quite a bit over - it was just such a great line
> I never thought about it adding points or anything except wanting to
> say how much I appreciated it.
>
> Sulriel
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, C Dodd <rabidsamfan@v...> wrote:

> Yeah, that's usually why I want to quote something too. Some

phrasing is > just so delicious you want to highlight it.

> I'll admit that the "In line" part of the rule confused me,

I'll honestly say that I don't care for rule#7 because it's too
vague. I think I mentioned that before, but I'm not sure it was on
this list. - which is why I used the "two lines" to define a
character count that I could enforce fairly across the board.

two lines could be:

**
"Oh no," said Sam.

Frodo nodded.
**

27 characters - where a *sentence* (shouldn't be *G*) but might be,
100 words or more. A 'line' is dependant on your font size and type
and your template or monitor settings.

I'm not sure exactly what 'in line' is supposed to mean, but I've
taken it to be that the quote has to be relevant to review, part of
the review or discussed in the review. I haven't seen any that
looked like they were just pasted at random.

Sulriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Leaward" <leaward_l@y...> wrote:

> Hmm, for a writer that was exceedingly unclear.
>
> ... two of only 70 that I've written ...
>
> You've written how many? Over 500?

I am very happy with my 41. With no quoting in it ;)

Rhapsody

dwim wrote:

>> > 'Fessing up over here. I do have one finalized review with a quote
>> of 135 characters.
>>
>> One? *One*? Pish tosh, I say! That's about as evil as apple pie. Ask
>> Sulriel for my list sometime...
>>
>> Dwim, the Dark Queen of Over-Quoting

Oh come on, let me have my moment of evil! You'll get the dark and ominous-looking tower back in a minute. At least let me hang out the window and laugh maniacally at all the minions. Besides, the apple pie smell has yet to permanently mar any fortress of evil.
Thundera (who wonders why the minions are looking at her strangely...)

----------------------------------
Insanity is just a state of mind.
HawkeyeýM*A*S*H
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