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If I am remembering correctly, the author wasn't complaining that the review
was a "flame" but rather that her reaction to the review was "why bother
leaving this review in the first place?"

I went back and looked it up, and understood, I think, for the review is
rather lukewarm in tone. Reading the piece, I can see the author's passion;
reading the review, I can see the reviewer's point. The piece was moving in itself,
but did not convince the reader of the identity of the characters involved.

Not a flame, I think, though the author evidently didn't find it all that
helpful.

If the mods want identifying information, email me. It's not worth roiling
the list over the matter, IMHO. Of course, if there was a *real* flame involved
somewhere else in the Awards, I apologise for muddying the waters here.

Lin

In a message dated 11/2/2005 12:08:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com writes:

Someone (and I apologize that I've forgotten who) said that they
received a flame review. Is that allowed?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- BLJean@aol.com wrote:


---------------------------------

> If I am remembering correctly, the author

wasn't complaining

> that the review was a "flame" but rather that

her reaction to > the review was "why bother
leaving this review in the first

> place?"

By no means did I say that the review was a flam!
(yes, I know I'm late in replying to this, but
it was me who said it, so I feel I have to reply)

> I went back and looked it up, and understood, I

think, for the > review is rather lukewarm in
tone. Reading the piece, I can

> see the author's passion; reading the review, I

can see the

> reviewer's point. The piece was moving in

itself, but did not > convince the reader of the
identity of the characters involved.

Honestly, if a reviewer fails to "connect" with
the piece to that degree then why leave a review?
Because you (ie, the reader) obviously didn't
enjoy the piece all that much - especially when
the characters are identified in the header of
the piece. I aimed to leave reviews for every
piece I read, but there were a couple that I
didn't simply because I felt I hadn't enjoyed the
piece enough to warrant leaving one. I don't
think it's really fair in a competition based on
reviews and character counts etc. to leave
reviews of that nature!

> Not a flame, I think, though the author

evidently didn't find > it all that helpful.

I never considered it a flame at all. I really
want that to be clear. I just wondered why the
review was left at all when it didn't offer much
that could be construed as constructive criticism
and at the same time, it really didn't offer any
glowing comments. I'm pretty resilient to
getting non-constructive criticism of my work as
well as constructive criticism and really
positive comments, so I didn't mind - but I know
there are a lot of less seasoned and more
sensitive writers out there and I really felt it
should be brought up, so at least it recognised
as a potential issue and maybe discussed. Oh,
and if it kept getting discussed somewhere, could
someone point me to a message number please? I
accidentally deleted a couple of hundred emails
the other week - many of which were MEFA related
:-P

> If the mods want identifying information, email

me. It's not

> worth roiling the list over the matter, IMHO.

Of course, if

> there was a *real* flame involved somewhere

else in the

> Awards, I apologise for muddying the waters

here.

The mods are free to contact me as well - given
a) I am a mod and b) I was the one who brought it
all up in the first place! LOL! :-P

Resha, who promises to try and keep up and not
delete things.

~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha



____________________________________________________
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Hi Resha,

> > If I am remembering correctly, the author
> wasn't complaining
> > that the review was a "flame" but rather that
> her reaction to > the review was "why bother
> leaving this review in the first
> > place?"
>
> By no means did I say that the review was a flam!
> (yes, I know I'm late in replying to this, but
> it was me who said it, so I feel I have to reply)
>

Thanks for taking the time. I do know the flood of emails can be
overwhelming at times.

> > I went back and looked it up, and understood, I
> think, for the > review is rather lukewarm in
> tone. Reading the piece, I can
> > see the author's passion; reading the review, I
> can see the
> > reviewer's point. The piece was moving in
> itself, but did not > convince the reader of the
> identity of the characters involved.
>
> Honestly, if a reviewer fails to "connect" with
> the piece to that degree then why leave a review?
> Because you (ie, the reader) obviously didn't
> enjoy the piece all that much - especially when
> the characters are identified in the header of
> the piece.  I aimed to leave reviews for every
> piece I read, but there were a couple that I
> didn't simply because I felt I hadn't enjoyed the
> piece enough to warrant leaving one.  I don't
> think it's really fair in a competition based on
> reviews and character counts etc. to leave
> reviews of that nature!
>

I agree - it does seem counter-productive to leave a review for a piece
that you didn't really enjoy. The competition was pretty fierce in some
of the sub-cats, and a single point or in some cases even a few
characters really could make a difference.

Do you have any suggestions for how we handle something like this? If
we remove the review then the author doesn't get those points, and if
they've already seen the review more than likely so we're just harming
the author further.

My guy says we should do what we can to discourage this type of review
- but if one's made, leave it alone.

> > Not a flame, I think, though the author
> evidently didn't find > it all that helpful.
>
> I never considered it a flame at all.  I really
> want that to be clear.  I just wondered why the
> review was left at all when it didn't offer much
> that could be construed as constructive criticism
> and at the same time, it really didn't offer any
> glowing comments.  I'm pretty resilient to
> getting non-constructive criticism of my work as
> well as constructive criticism and really
> positive comments, so I didn't mind - but I know
> there are a lot of less seasoned and more
> sensitive writers out there and I really felt it
> should be brought up, so at least it recognised
> as a potential issue and maybe discussed.  Oh,
> and if it kept getting discussed somewhere, could
> someone point me to a message number please?  I
> accidentally deleted a couple of hundred emails
> the other week - many of which were MEFA related
> :-P
>

I don't mind it being discussed. It could cause problems, I'm just not
sure how to fix it, short of maybe screening all the comments. That's
not *completely* out of the question, but it would be very
work-intensive, and it would mean we'd have to make a lot more
judgement calls - something I'd rather avoid if possible.

Marta

Could we gently suggest that readers/reviewers leave "beta-type" comments at
the original archives?

> >Marta wrote
>
> I don't mind it being discussed. It could cause problems, I'm just not
> sure how to fix it, short of maybe screening all the comments. That's
> not *completely* out of the question, but it would be very
> work-intensive, and it would mean we'd have to make a lot more
> judgement calls - something I'd rather avoid if possible.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi RSF,

On 21 Nov 2005, at 13:38, C Dodd wrote:

> Could we gently suggest that readers/reviewers leave "beta-type"
> comments at
> the original archives?
>

I know that for me one of the easiest ways to give a story as many
points as I wanted to was to discuss in depth some part where I
disagreed with the author. For example, with Tanaqui's drabble "A New
Home" I questioned whether Ithilien would have its own market so close
to Minas Tirith. (On discussing it with the author afterwards, she
convinced me that Faramir would want one for the tax revenues alone.
:-P ). But it was always a minor thing and the sort of thing that I
wouldn't mind discussing with an author after a piece is finished.

How about something like this for the Voting FAQ?

*****

Q: I have some constructive criticism for the author. Can I include
that in my MEFA review?

A: The MEFAs are a "feel good" review, and we ask that voters keep
their reviews generally positive. This doesn't mean that you can't
discuss an issue where you disagree with something about an author's
story; in fact, discussing some specific aspect of the story is a good
way to give a story more points. Do remember, however, that some
authors are more sensitive to criticism than others. If you do decide
to give an author constructive feedback, be sure that you also include
some things about the story that you *did* like.

If you find typos or other such things that you think the author would
like to know about, you should probably do this by leaving a comment at
the website where the story is archived, or by emailing the author
privately. Remember that many people use these reviews to decide
whether they will read a story after the awards are over, so an overly
critical review could cost the author future readers.

Still not sure? Feel free to email the admins at <a
href="mailto:mefasupport@gmail.com">mefasupport@gmail.com</a>. We'll
look at your review and give you our advice about whether or not it's
appropriate for these awards.

*****

Oh, and please don't delete that FAQ when you'r ereplying. I just typed
it directly into this email.

Marta

Hello. First and OT, a Happy Thanksgiving Day to all who are celebrating this holdiay. It's a great fall day; typical. Overcast, high 30s' maybe, and enough colored leaves left on trees to really show up against the sky. Look outside and it's like a lbreathing temple.

Anyway - I've been following this discussion since the beginning. I forgot the origins, and I remember that the comments have been thoughtful and balanced. At issue is whether MEFA reviwers should leave lukewarn or less-than-positive/constructive comments, and if they do, should MEFA remove them. After all the contest is won by counting the size of reviews so negative reviews help the writer win, as much as positive comments help.

I think that flames should be removed. Flames are pointless actings-out of someone's self-directed ego. I do not think the administrators should mess with comments that anything less than flames. I beseech the decision-makers to avoid censorship and the authors to toughen their hides a little. Think what it must be like for writers who publsih for a living.

That's my take. Best regards. - Chathol-linn

> If I am remembering correctly, the author

wasn't complaining

> that the review was a "flame" but rather that

her reaction to > the review was "why bother
leaving this review in the first

> place?"

By no means did I say that the review was a flam!
(yes, I know I'm late in replying to this, but
it was me who said it, so I feel I have to reply)

> I went back and looked it up, and understood, I

think, for the > review is rather lukewarm in
tone. Reading the piece, I can

> see the author's passion; reading the review, I

can see the

> reviewer's point. The piece was moving in

itself, but did not > convince the reader of the
identity of the characters involved.

Honestly, if a reviewer fails to "connect" with
the piece to that degree then why leave a review?
Because you (ie, the reader) obviously didn't
enjoy the piece all that much - especially when
the characters are identified in the header of
the piece. I aimed to leave reviews for every
piece I read, but there were a couple that I
didn't simply because I felt I hadn't enjoyed the
piece enough to warrant leaving one. I don't
think it's really fair in a competition based on
reviews and character counts etc. to leave
reviews of that nature!

> Not a flame, I think, though the author

evidently didn't find > it all that helpful.

I never considered it a flame at all. I really
want that to be clear. I just wondered why the
review was left at all when it didn't offer much
that could be construed as constructive criticism
and at the same time, it really didn't offer any
glowing comments. I'm pretty resilient to
getting non-constructive criticism of my work as
well as constructive criticism and really
positive comments, so I didn't mind - but I know
there are a lot of less seasoned and more
sensitive writers out there and I really felt it
should be brought up, so at least it recognised
as a potential issue and maybe discussed. Oh,
and if it kept getting discussed somewhere, could
someone point me to a message number please? I
accidentally deleted a couple of hundred emails
the other week - many of which were MEFA related
:-P



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Popping in very quick here before the turkey is ready...

At issue is whether MEFA reviwers should leave lukewarn or

> less-than-positive/constructive comments, and if they do, should MEFA remove
> them. After all the contest is won by counting the size of reviews so
> negative reviews help the writer win, as much as positive comments help.
>
> I think that flames should be removed. Flames are pointless actings-out of
> someone's self-directed ego. I do not think the administrators should mess
> with comments that anything less than flames. I beseech the decision-makers
> to avoid censorship and the authors to toughen their hides a little.

I don't want to have to censor all the reviews. For one thing, it's too much
work; and besides, I'm very against any form of censorship, and would be
uncomfortable doing that. It just opens up a can of worms.

The problem is how to remove flames. If we don't screen all the reviews
before releasing them we have to rely on people reading the reviews to point
them out. And at that point it's possible that the author could have already
seen the review. I think the author is most likely to point out a flame
review, and I hate to take away points when they've already had their
feelings hurt.

One option (and Anthony will have to say if it's technically possible) is to
not display the review but to still count the points. If someone thinks a
review is a flame, we could set it to "flame" status, which would make the
review invisible to everyone but the reviewer and the admins, but unlike
this year's "draft" review we'd still count the points.

If we did this, I'd say anyone reading a review they consider problematic
could email the admins quietly, and we would decide whether it's a true
flame. If this is a possibility, we would reset the status to "flame", which
would make it no longer visible. It would still be used in calculating
points, character counts, etc.

Marta


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

> I don't want to have to censor all the reviews. For one thing, it's

too much> work; and besides, I'm very against any form of censorship,
and would be> uncomfortable doing that. It just opens up a can of
worms.


totally agree.

> >> not display the review but to still count the points.

<<snipped>> we would reset the status to "flame", which> would make
it no longer visible. It would still be used in calculating> points,
character counts, etc.

> > Marta

I think this is a great idea, but should be at the *authors* request
only.

Sulriel

(home from turkey-eating and about to head out to the barn and work
it off with evening chores. Hope everyone had a great holiday!)

>
> I think this is a great idea, but should be at the *authors* request
> only.

That makes sense. Should the admins also have to agree it's a genuine flame
(rather than the author just not liking a critical review)? And should there
be a sign that a review was made but is hidden?

Marta


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

>
> >
> > I think this is a great idea, but should be at the *authors*

request

> > only.
>
>
>
> That makes sense. Should the admins also have to agree it's a

genuine flame

> (rather than the author just not liking a critical review)? And

should there

> be a sign that a review was made but is hidden?
>
> Marta
>

I have a couple of thoughts on this, but not a strong opinion. I
think that if a review upsets an author enough that they don't want
it attached to their story, it's reasonable for the admin to delete
it without having to agree that it's a flame. The reason I say this
is to keep the subjective admin opinions out of the loop, - people
have such varying degrees of sensitivity and understanding, I would
be comfortable simply letting the author decide. (within a stated
timeframe, prior to the award winners being announced)

that said. - I'm 'ok' with the review being invisible but counted,
but I'd be more ok with it if it were a matter of it being deleted.
(so the points wouldn't count). I think that would give some weight
and balance to the procedure. If the author felt strongly enough
about it they were willing to lose the points, I think the admin
should respect that.

Sulriel

On 25 Nov 2005, at 13:55, sulriel wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I think this is a great idea, but should be at the *authors*
> request
> > > only.
> >
> >
> >
> > That makes sense. Should the admins also have to agree it's a
> genuine flame
> > (rather than the author just not liking a critical review)? And
> should there
> > be a sign that a review was made but is hidden?
> >
> > Marta
> >
>
> I have a couple of thoughts on this, but not a strong opinion.  I
> think that if a review upsets an author enough that they don't want
> it attached to their story, it's reasonable for the admin to delete
> it without having to agree that it's a flame.  The reason I say this
> is to keep the subjective admin opinions out of the loop, - people
> have such varying degrees of sensitivity and understanding, I would
> be comfortable simply letting the author decide. (within a stated
> timeframe, prior to the award winners being announced)
>
> that said. - I'm 'ok' with the review being invisible but counted,
> but I'd be more ok with it if it were a matter of it being deleted.
> (so the points wouldn't count).  I think that would give some weight
> and balance to the procedure.  If the author felt strongly enough
> about it they were willing to lose the points, I think the admin
> should respect that.
>

I don't have very strong feeling about this either. But for me the
feeling is reversed: I would be somewhat happy deleting flames, but
more happy hiding them and still counting to them. The major deterrent
to flaming is that by doing so you're giving that author points, and
I'd like to keep that. I think people might be more likely to flame if
they know that the author might make it not count.

Anthony, is this a technical option? To make a review invisible, but to
have it still count toward that story's totals? If so, maybe we could
just do a poll and go with what the majority want.

Marta

> Anthony, is this a technical option? To make a review invisible, but to
> have it still count toward that story's totals? If so, maybe we could
> just do a poll and go with what the majority want.

Yes. I'll have to add a 'flame' bit to the database, and provide an
admin means of setting it. Then for the 'read reviews' pages, I'll need
to check the flame bit before showing it. I'll add it to my list.
Hopefully it won't take too much time.

A.

Hi Anthony,

On 25 Nov 2005, at 23:57, Anthony Holder wrote:

> > Anthony, is this a technical option? To make a review invisible, but
> to
> > have it still count toward that story's totals? If so, maybe we
> could
> > just do a poll and go with what the majority want.
>
> Yes. I'll have to add a 'flame' bit to the database, and provide an
> admin means of setting it. Then for the 'read reviews' pages, I'll
> need
> to check the flame bit before showing it. I'll add it to my list.
> Hopefully it won't take too much time.
>

I know this year we could edit reviews to set the status from final to
tentative or draft. Would it work to just have a new option, 'flame'?
An admin could then edit the review just like we did this year, only
instead of changing the review to draft, we would change it to flame.
The code to display reviews could look for final reviews, whereas the
code to generate point totals could look for final and flame.

Or it may not be that simple. I don't know how things are coded in the
website presently, and I don't know much web programming beyond HTML.
So if it's more complicated than that, let me know.

Thanks for your willingness to do this.

Marta

Okay... firstly, I know this is once again
EXCEPTIONALLY late. I won't go into why, but in
a nutshell... Pre-Christmas and Christmas time
is HELL for events! You go from working nights
and sleeping days to just plain WORKING! Add to
that studying two nights a week... You get the
idea! ANYWAY!

> I agree - it does seem counter-productive to

leave a review

> for a piece that you didn't really enjoy. The

competition was > pretty fierce in some of the
sub-cats, and a single point or

> in some cases even a few characters really

could make a

> difference.

For me, it wasn't a case of win or lose - it was
one of only three reviews I got total, but as you
said - counter-productive to the max!

> Do you have any suggestions for how we handle

something like

> this? If we remove the review then the author

doesn't get

> those points, and if they've already seen the

review more than > likely so we're just harming
the author further.

I suggest that perhaps the author is given the
ability to screen their own reviews if they come
across something like this. I personally don't
have issue with others seeing this, but I am sure
some people will. Also, I think perhaps we
should have some way that people can report what
they feel to be a "flame" review and that person
can be investigated by MEFA people - we had MORE
than enough volunteers this year, I'm sure
someone would relish the job of checking on
possible flames! And given this appears to be
the only one, it doesn't seem like it would be
all that time-consuming!

> My guy says we should do what we can to

discourage this type

> of review - but if one's made, leave it alone.

That's all well and good, but there isn't much
point in saying "This is bad" and then not acting
on it when it happens. It's like any rule that
is based around bad behaviour - if you're not
going to enforce it, don't bother having it!
Especially with something like flaming, it is a
very sensitive, very personal issue and it can
severely impact on the person it is directed at.
It is something that needs to be dealt with, not
just talked about and left alone.

> I don't mind it being discussed. It could cause

problems, I'm > just not sure how to fix it,
short of maybe screening all the > comments.
That's not *completely* out of the question, but
it > would be very work-intensive, and it would
mean we'd have to

> make a lot more judgement calls - something I'd

rather avoid

> if possible.

Like I said above, I think perhaps some sort of
system where it is possible to either remove
and/or hide the review. Also, I think that the
threat of banning those who leave a flame review
may help deter it from happening. But we also
need to be open to discourse between any authors
and any reviewers that they feel have flamed
them.

Resha,

~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@hotmail.com Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

My Website! Slash Me Happy
http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

> should there be a sign that a review was made

but is hidden?

I think that would be a good thing, at least it
gives an accurate portrayl of how many reviews
were made to anyone who cares to look, but it
allows certain ones to be hidden from view.


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

Hello. It has been a while since I saw this discussion. Are we still talking about flames, or is it most any review that is not complimentary, or constructive, or what? Regards - Chathol-linn


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Naresha <north_shore_fruitcake@yahoo.com.au>


Okay... firstly, I know this is once again
EXCEPTIONALLY late. I won't go into why, but in
a nutshell... Pre-Christmas and Christmas time
is HELL for events! You go from working nights
and sleeping days to just plain WORKING! Add to
that studying two nights a week... You get the
idea! ANYWAY!

> I agree - it does seem counter-productive to

leave a review

> for a piece that you didn't really enjoy. The

competition was > pretty fierce in some of the
sub-cats, and a single point or

> in some cases even a few characters really

could make a

> difference.

For me, it wasn't a case of win or lose - it was
one of only three reviews I got total, but as you
said - counter-productive to the max!

> Do you have any suggestions for how we handle

something like

> this? If we remove the review then the author

doesn't get

> those points, and if they've already seen the

review more than > likely so we're just harming
the author further.

I suggest that perhaps the author is given the
ability to screen their own reviews if they come
across something like this. I personally don't
have issue with others seeing this, but I am sure
some people will. Also, I think perhaps we
should have some way that people can report what
they feel to be a "flame" review and that person
can be investigated by MEFA people - we had MORE
than enough volunteers this year, I'm sure
someone would relish the job of checking on
possible flames! And given this appears to be
the only one, it doesn't seem like it would be
all that time-consuming!

> My guy says we should do what we can to

discourage this type

> of review - but if one's made, leave it alone.

That's all well and good, but there isn't much
point in saying "This is bad" and then not acting
on it when it happens. It's like any rule that
is based around bad behaviour - if you're not
going to enforce it, don't bother having it!
Especially with something like flaming, it is a
very sensitive, very personal issue and it can
severely impact on the person it is directed at.
It is something that needs to be dealt with, not
just talked about and left alone.

> I don't mind it being discussed. It could cause

problems, I'm > just not sure how to fix it,
short of maybe screening all the > comments.
That's not *completely* out of the question, but
it > would be very work-intensive, and it would
mean we'd have to

> make a lot more judgement calls - something I'd

rather avoid

> if possible.

Like I said above, I think perhaps some sort of
system where it is possible to either remove
and/or hide the review. Also, I think that the
threat of banning those who leave a flame review
may help deter it from happening. But we also
need to be open to discourse between any authors
and any reviewers that they feel have flamed
them.

Resha,



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:17:52 +0000
> From: chathollinn@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: "flame" review... but not really - sorry so late!
>
> Hello. It has been a while since I saw this discussion. Are we still
> talking about flames, or is it most any review that is not
> complimentary, or constructive, or what? Regards - Chathol-linn
>

I think we're actually talking about flames here. I certainly don't
want to knock out all constructive comments, as those were my
favourites to receive and being able to talk about them really allowed
me to delve into things for the longer reviews.

I can't find the email (I do save these), but I think we decided to
handle these on a case-by-case basis. If you notice what you consider
an abusive review during the competition, especially if it's for your
story, let the admins know and we'll handle it.

thanks,
Marta