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Hey guys,

I hope everyone who celebrates Thanksgiving had a nice turkey day and
enjoyed lots of parades and football games. I'm back home from the
grandparents and am more or less caught up on email. Having read
everything discussed here, I think we're pretty close to some
decisions, and I want to try to tie up some loose ends.

First, on categories. So far we have:

* Dwim's new nomination form.
* Inkling's rule that a subcategory can't have the same name as a main
category.
* My FAQs

Will these make the categories system simple enough?

Is everyone okay with the different time periods instead of the source
materials we had in the past? To recap, I think they were:

* First Age and Before
* Second Age
* Early Third Age
* Quest for Erebor
* Pre-Ring War
* Ring War (bookverse)
* Ring War (movieverse)
* Fourth Age and Beyond

At some point we'll need to come up with first, second, and third
places for these. We'll also need to come up with the lists for people
to choose from for places, characters, etc. for Dwim's form. And over
at the staff list we're going to discuss some particulars about how to
fix some problems with the actual categorisation of stories.

Is there anything else we need to do about categories? Will these
changes address peoples' concerns?

Second, there's been some talk about flames. Everyone who's commented
has agreed that it's a good idea to let the authors choose to hide a
review if they consider it a flame. (If you *don't* think authors
should be able to do this, please let us know.) The main disagreement
is whether these votes should count toward the story's totals. Is there
a big enough disagreement here that people want a poll? Otherwise, I'll
just go with my gut on this one; I'm not sure how big an issue this is
for most people.

I think that's about it.

Marta

Hi Marta,

Hope you had a nice holiday too. Re: your time period breakdown,
should there be a Post-Ring War category, to cover events between the
end of the War and the end of the Third Age? A short period, but a
lot of stories are set therein.

Kathy (Inkling)

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I hope everyone who celebrates Thanksgiving had a nice turkey day
and
> enjoyed lots of parades and football games. I'm back home from the
> grandparents and am more or less caught up on email. Having read
> everything discussed here, I think we're pretty close to some
> decisions, and I want to try to tie up some loose ends.
>
> First, on categories. So far we have:
>
> * Dwim's new nomination form.
> * Inkling's rule that a subcategory can't have the same name as a
main
> category.
> * My FAQs
>
> Will these make the categories system simple enough?
>
> Is everyone okay with the different time periods instead of the
source
> materials we had in the past? To recap, I think they were:
>
> * First Age and Before
> * Second Age
> * Early Third Age
> * Quest for Erebor
> * Pre-Ring War
> * Ring War (bookverse)
> * Ring War (movieverse)
> * Fourth Age and Beyond
>
> At some point we'll need to come up with first, second, and third
> places for these. We'll also need to come up with the lists for
people
> to choose from for places, characters, etc. for Dwim's form. And
over
> at the staff list we're going to discuss some particulars about how
to
> fix some problems with the actual categorisation of stories.
>
> Is there anything else we need to do about categories? Will these
> changes address peoples' concerns?
>
> Second, there's been some talk about flames. Everyone who's
commented
> has agreed that it's a good idea to let the authors choose to hide
a
> review if they consider it a flame. (If you *don't* think authors
> should be able to do this, please let us know.) The main
disagreement
> is whether these votes should count toward the story's totals. Is
there
> a big enough disagreement here that people want a poll? Otherwise,
I'll
> just go with my gut on this one; I'm not sure how big an issue this
is
> for most people.
>
> I think that's about it.
>
> Marta
>

Please define the beginning and end of "Ring War". Absolute, arbitrary
events or dates if necessary, but give us a clear definition or we'll be
wrangling for certain.

As for "flame" reviews, I think that the reason to hide them (authors with
thin skins) gets negated by the idea that authors should say whether or not
they're hidden or should count. Having said that, if we allow the reviews
to contribute points while hidden I can foresee an unfortunate argument that
an unscrupulous author could create a trollish sock-puppet to flame their
own stories and then rack up points that way, all hidden from the general
view.

I'd say that authors should have the right to ask the admins to intervene in
the case of a scurrilous review, and the person who left
the review should be offered the opportunity to withdraw the review without
penalty, all of their other reviews being held in suspense until the
situation is resolved. (Which will defeat the point of sock-puppetry.) In
the end, the author should be able to ask to have the review deleted, but
the points should go with it.

Mind you, I think the rules should say that authors who have problem with a
review should contact the admins, and the admins should use that sequence as
a guideline rather than a blueprint. I saw more e-mails that said "I don't
think this review is for my story" than I did saying that a review was
negative.

On 11/27/05, Marta Layton <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I hope everyone who celebrates Thanksgiving had a nice turkey day and
> enjoyed lots of parades and football games. I'm back home from the
> grandparents and am more or less caught up on email. Having read
> everything discussed here, I think we're pretty close to some
> decisions, and I want to try to tie up some loose ends.
>
> First, on categories. So far we have:
>
> * Dwim's new nomination form.
> * Inkling's rule that a subcategory can't have the same name as a main
> category.
> * My FAQs
>
> Will these make the categories system simple enough?
>
> Is everyone okay with the different time periods instead of the source
> materials we had in the past? To recap, I think they were:
>
> * First Age and Before
> * Second Age
> * Early Third Age
> * Quest for Erebor
> * Pre-Ring War
> * Ring War (bookverse)
> * Ring War (movieverse)
> * Fourth Age and Beyond
>
> At some point we'll need to come up with first, second, and third
> places for these. We'll also need to come up with the lists for people
> to choose from for places, characters, etc. for Dwim's form. And over
> at the staff list we're going to discuss some particulars about how to
> fix some problems with the actual categorisation of stories.
>
> Is there anything else we need to do about categories? Will these
> changes address peoples' concerns?
>
> Second, there's been some talk about flames. Everyone who's commented
> has agreed that it's a good idea to let the authors choose to hide a
> review if they consider it a flame. (If you *don't* think authors
> should be able to do this, please let us know.) The main disagreement
> is whether these votes should count toward the story's totals. Is there
> a big enough disagreement here that people want a poll? Otherwise, I'll
> just go with my gut on this one; I'm not sure how big an issue this is
> for most people.
>
> I think that's about it.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Kathy,

On 27 Nov 2005, at 19:56, Kathy wrote:

> Hi Marta,
>
> Hope you had a nice holiday too.

Thanks for asking. It was pretty normal for family stuff - bearable,
with fun moments and other ones that strained my self-control. ;-)

> Re: your time period breakdown,
> should there be a Post-Ring War category, to cover events between the
> end of the War and the end of the Third Age?  A short period, but a
> lot of stories are set therein.
>
> Kathy (Inkling)
>

I'll address RSF's request for an exact definition of "Ring War" here
as well.

This is all spelled out in Dwim's form, where there's a short
description in what is covered in each time frame. I believe the Ring
War timeframe is described as covering everything from Frodo's leaving
Bag End through the sailing of the Ring-bearers' ship, which would
include those events between the destruction of the Ring and the end of
the Third Age. I think these events of the very late Third Age are
really closely tied to the Ring War, so it makes sense to keep them in
the same category. Plus, I'd like to keep the number of categories down
where possible.

Should we maybe rename it? Something like "The Great Years" (the term
used to describe these years in the Tale of Years), or "Late Third
Age"? I agree having a "Post-Ring War" subcategory could be confusing.

Marta

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

>
> Hey guys,
>
> I hope everyone who celebrates Thanksgiving had a nice turkey day and
> enjoyed lots of parades and football games. I'm back home from the
> grandparents and am more or less caught up on email. Having read
> everything discussed here, I think we're pretty close to some
> decisions, and I want to try to tie up some loose ends.
>
> First, on categories. So far we have:
>
> * Dwim's new nomination form.
> * Inkling's rule that a subcategory can't have the same name as a main
> category.
> * My FAQs
>
> Will these make the categories system simple enough?
>
> Is everyone okay with the different time periods instead of the source
> materials we had in the past? To recap, I think they were:
>
> * First Age and Before
> * Second Age
> * Early Third Age
> * Quest for Erebor
> * Pre-Ring War
> * Ring War (bookverse)
> * Ring War (movieverse)
> * Fourth Age and Beyond

Just to note, the revised form has a separate tick box for
"movieverse/bookverse", precisely in order to make sure we don't mix
categories based on source material in with categories based on
timelines.

Here are the break-ups on the form for "Timeline" as a main category:


A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?

1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
Morgoth.

2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
Last Alliance.

3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the quest
for Erebor.

4. Quest for Erebor - anything set around the events of _The Hobbit_,
or about the characters and peoples of that book before or after the
Quest for Erebor.

5. Pre-Quest - Stories about the characters of The Lord of the Rings
set before the War of the Ring.

6. War of the Ring - Stories about the events of _The Lord of the
Rings_, including the aftermath (before the Ringbearers sailed West)

7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories about the events after the sailing
of the Ring Bearers, or crossovers between Middle-earth and the modern
world.


If "War of the Ring" still seems too arbitrary here, I would suggest:

Pre-Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The
Lord of the Rings" set before Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the Quest.

Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The Lord of
the Rings" set after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the departure
of Frodo and the Ringbearers from Middle-earth.

Fourth Age and Beyond: Stories about the events after the sailing of
the Ring-bearers, or crossovers between Middle-earth and the modern world.

> Second, there's been some talk about flames. Everyone who's commented
> has agreed that it's a good idea to let the authors choose to hide a
> review if they consider it a flame. (If you *don't* think authors
> should be able to do this, please let us know.) The main disagreement
> is whether these votes should count toward the story's totals.

I say hold onto the points--I wouldn't want to see that be revised.
Giving out points for flames is a way of insuring that any flames that
are received are going to be the work of mischief-makers who are here
to make trouble for the fun of it. Anyone who understands how the
points system works understands that flames are counterproductive.

Take off the points, and I think it opens us to flaming more readily
since posting a flame then benefits absolutely no one but the flamer,
and that's exactly what flamers want.

I have no strong feelings about hiding flame reviews. An obvious flame
is one I have no trouble dumping but I also have no trouble just
scrolling. What I don't want to see is a system that will end in a lot
of contestation by the reviewer, who would argue against the author
that the review isn't a flame, that it's an honest opinion about a
work s/he enjoyed enough to review, and that this is censorship.

Dwim

You may want to put the actual departure of the Ringbearers into one
category or the other...

I kind of like Marta's Great Years designation. It makes sense, and it
doesn't necessarily focus on hobbits vs. Elves vs. Men.


About the flame reviews, I kind of feel like we should just deal with the
situation, *if* it arises, on an individual basis. Let authors know that
they have the ability to contact the admins if there is a problem, and then
see if it can't be hashed out behind the scenes, possibly hiding the review
by setting it as "draft" until the situation is resolved, but without a
specific pre-determined remedy. Locking the admins into a procedure for a
rare occurence strikes me as overdoing it. Personally, if someone flamed my
story and the review wasn't the sort of thing that ought to be hidden from
the children, I'd probably laugh my head off, take the points and run. Vile
language would be another consideration altogether, and I'd probably ask for
a review like that to be bleeped or deleted, and I'd expect the admins to
restrict the author's ability to make reviews until they figured out what
had happened (somebody's bratty kid brother snuck onto the computer,
then?). Grey areas in between would deserve a grayer kind of response. But
without a series of actual incidents to build a policy around, I don't think
that it's something which needs to be set in concrete this year.

(And now if I can just figure out why the computer won't let me insert my
replies where they belong...)

On 11/27/05, dwimmer_laik <dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here are the break-ups on the form for "Timeline" as a main category:
>
>
> A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?
>
> 1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
> Morgoth.
>
> 2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
> Last Alliance.
>
> 3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the quest
> for Erebor.
>
> 4. Quest for Erebor - anything set around the events of _The Hobbit_,
> or about the characters and peoples of that book before or after the
> Quest for Erebor.
>
> 5. Pre-Quest - Stories about the characters of The Lord of the Rings
> set before the War of the Ring.
>
> 6. War of the Ring - Stories about the events of _The Lord of the
> Rings_, including the aftermath (before the Ringbearers sailed West)
>
> 7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories about the events after the sailing
> of the Ring Bearers, or crossovers between Middle-earth and the modern
> world.
>
>
> If "War of the Ring" still seems too arbitrary here, I would suggest:
>
> Pre-Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The
> Lord of the Rings" set before Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the Quest.
>
> Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The Lord of
> the Rings" set after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the departure
> of Frodo and the Ringbearers from Middle-earth.
>
> Fourth Age and Beyond: Stories about the events after the sailing of
> the Ring-bearers, or crossovers between Middle-earth and the modern world.
>
>
> I say hold onto the points--I wouldn't want to see that be revised.
> Giving out points for flames is a way of insuring that any flames that
> are received are going to be the work of mischief-makers who are here
> to make trouble for the fun of it. Anyone who understands how the
> points system works understands that flames are counterproductive.
>
> Take off the points, and I think it opens us to flaming more readily
> since posting a flame then benefits absolutely no one but the flamer,
> and that's exactly what flamers want.
>
> I have no strong feelings about hiding flame reviews. An obvious flame
> is one I have no trouble dumping but I also have no trouble just
> scrolling. What I don't want to see is a system that will end in a lot
> of contestation by the reviewer, who would argue against the author
> that the review isn't a flame, that it's an honest opinion about a
> work s/he enjoyed enough to review, and that this is censorship.
>
> Dwim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi RSF,

On 27 Nov 2005, at 20:11, rabidsamfan wrote:

> Please define the beginning and end of "Ring War".  Absolute, arbitrary
> events or dates if necessary, but give us a clear definition or we'll
> be
> wrangling for certain.
>

Thanks for pointing out the need for that. See my earlier reply to
Kathy, and Dwim's post of the official definitions from her form.

> As for "flame" reviews, I think that the reason to hide them (authors
> with
> thin skins) gets negated by the idea that authors should say whether
> or not
> they're hidden or should count.  Having said that, if we allow the
> reviews
> to contribute points while hidden I can foresee an unfortunate
> argument that
> an unscrupulous author could create a trollish sock-puppet to flame
> their
> own stories and then rack up points that way, all hidden from the
> general
> view.
>

Authors wouldn't get to decide whether these things count or not -- not
directly, anyway. As a group we would decide whether flames would be
counted toward totals or not. Then anyone who sees a questionable
review could contact the admins and tell us to take a look. If it's the
author making the request I doubt I'd argue the point of whether
something was a flame, especially if the points still counted.

As for the trollish sock-puppet... that's certainly creative! I'm not
denying it, I just hadn't thought of it as an argument. If an author
was going to use a sock-puppet to vote, I don't see how doing it
through flames would help; besides giving the author *bad* press, and
it would bring those posts to the attention of the admins. And if the
same person made more than one trollish comment, especially for the
same author, I'd probably email them privately and warn them to cut
that out of their reviews. I'd like to be able to take away reviewing
privileges for someone who repeatedly flames though that may need
further discussion.

> I'd say that authors should have the right to ask the admins to
> intervene in
> the case of a scurrilous review, and the person who left
> the review should be offered the opportunity to withdraw the review
> without
> penalty, all of their other reviews being held in suspense until the
> situation is resolved. (Which will defeat the point of
> sock-puppetry.)  In
> the end, the author should be able to ask to have the review deleted,
> but
> the points should go with it.
>

I think this would put an author in a hard position. On the one hand,
don't report a review and live with the negative review. On the other
hand, willingly give up points -- possibly losing an award that you
would have won if you had let the review stand. In either case it seems
like we'd be penalising the wrong person.

> Mind you, I think the rules should say that authors who have problem
> with a
> review should contact the admins, and the admins should use that
> sequence as
> a guideline rather than a blueprint.  I saw more e-mails that said "I
> don't
> think this review is for my story" than I did saying that a review was
> negative.
>

You're probably right about that. It does seem like we could get bogged
down into what-ifs here, and I don't want to tie the admins' hands next
year.

Marta

Hi Dwim,

> Just to note, the revised form has a separate tick box for
> "movieverse/bookverse", precisely in order to make sure we don't mix
> categories based on source material in with categories based on
> timelines.
>
> Here are the break-ups on the form for "Timeline" as a main category:
>

<snip>

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't have the form in front of me, so I
wasn't sure.

Can you post an updated version of the form so that we all have that
available?

> If "War of the Ring" still seems too arbitrary here, I would suggest:
>
> Pre-Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The
> Lord of the Rings" set before Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the Quest.
>
> Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The Lord of
> the Rings" set after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the departure
> of Frodo and the Ringbearers from Middle-earth.
>
> Fourth Age and Beyond: Stories about the events after the sailing of
> the Ring-bearers, or crossovers between Middle-earth and the modern
> world.
>

The problem is the label "Quest" -- the stuff set after the Ring War
may have next to nothing to do with the actual Quest. The label also
doesn't seem to include stories about Gondor or Rohan before the
Fellowship crew show up, or stories about the occupation of the Shire.
I think people would get that's where they should put those stories,
but I think a label like "Great Years" or "Late Third Age" might work
better.

> > Second, there's been some talk about flames. Everyone who's
> commented
> > has agreed that it's a good idea to let the authors choose to hide a
> > review if they consider it a flame. (If you *don't* think authors
> > should be able to do this, please let us know.) The main
> disagreement
> > is whether these votes should count toward the story's totals.
>
> I say hold onto the points--I wouldn't want to see that be revised.
> Giving out points for flames is a way of insuring that any flames that
> are received are going to be the work of mischief-makers who are here
> to make trouble for the fun of it. Anyone who understands how the
> points system works understands that flames are counterproductive. 
>
> Take off the points, and I think it opens us to flaming more readily
> since posting a flame then benefits absolutely no one but the flamer,
> and that's exactly what flamers want.
>

That's my thoughts exactly.

> I have no strong feelings about hiding flame reviews. An obvious flame
> is one I have no trouble dumping but I also have no trouble just
> scrolling. What I don't want to see is a system that will end in a lot
> of contestation by the reviewer, who would argue against the author
> that the review isn't a flame, that it's an honest opinion about a
> work s/he enjoyed enough to review, and that this is censorship.
>

No, I don't want that either. If we do any thing like this it wouldn't
be something that was defended and publicly debated.

Marta

Hi RSF,

On 27 Nov 2005, at 22:45, rabidsamfan wrote:

> You may want to put the actual departure of the Ringbearers into one
> category or the other...
>

Good point. Dwim, can you edit #7 to:

7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories set during or after the Fourth Age
(including the sailing of the Ring Bearers), or crossovers between
Middle-earth and the modern world.

> About the flame reviews, I kind of feel like we should just deal with
> the
> situation, *if* it arises, on an individual basis. 
> Let authors know that
> they have the ability to contact the admins if there is a problem,
> and then
> see if it can't be hashed out behind the scenes, possibly hiding the
> review
> by setting it as "draft" until the situation is resolved, but without
> a
> specific pre-determined remedy. 

That makes sense to me. I actually prefer the ability to be flexible,
if people don't mind. Fair, but not bound by some convoluted set of
rules.

Marta

>
> Can you post an updated version of the form so that we all have that
> available?

Reposting form. Note changes to "Timeline" main category. Do those
descriptions work, even leaving out the "Great Years" categorizing
(that would seem to cover what we're calling 'Pre-Quest' at the
moment...)?

Also, I haven't gone back to refresh my memory on how the romance
partners/warning fields work at the awards and so haven't done
anything with redoing the warning fields since the current set-up is
already equipped to handle write-in responses.

Dwim


STORY FORM: Please read *all* instructions, and complete all fields to
the extent required.

BASICS

Title: [already provided]
Author: [already provided]
Summary: [author provides]
Rating (if incorrect, please change): [MEFA drop-down]
Warnings: (choose what applies)
Extreme violence
Explicit depictions of sex
Mature themes
Extra-canonical romance: m/f
Extra-canonical romance: m/m, f/f, slash
Extra-canonical romance: multiple partners
Incestuous attraction
None
URL (if not preferred site, please replace): [provided by nominator]

Please choose *one* and *only one* from each of the following three lists:

My story is:

1. Bookverse: based on the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien and/or drafts
made available by C. Tolkien
2. Filmverse: based on a film adaptation of "The Lord of the Rings" or
"The Hobbit"

My story is:

1. Fiction
2. Non-fiction (if non-fiction, please skip to number 8 in
"Subcategories")


My story is best described as a...

1. Drabble (100 words exactly, plus 15 for title)
2. Drabble cycle (a series of individual drabbles connected by some theme)
3. Ficlet (101 up to, but not including, 500 words)
4. Short Story (500-10,000 words)
5. Novella (10,001-50,000 words)
6. Novel (>50,000 words)
7. Poem (any length)


MAIN CATEGORIES

Please choose *one* and *only one* from each of the following lists.
Your responses will help us to try to place your story in a MEFA
category that is most appropriate.

A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?

1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
Morgoth.

2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
Last Alliance.

3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the quest
for Erebor.

4. Quest for Erebor - anything set around the events of _The Hobbit_,
or about the characters and peoples of that book before or after the
Quest for Erebor.

5. Pre-Quest - Stories about the characters and events occuring before
Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the Quest but after the end of the Quest
for Erebor.

6. War of the Ring - Stories about the characters and events occuring
after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the departure of Frodo and the
Ringbearers from Middle-earth.

7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories about the events including but also
following the sailing of the Ring Bearers, or crossovers between
Middle-earth and the modern world.


B. Which of these genres best describes your story?

1. Action/Adventure
2. Alternate Universe
3. Crossover
4. Drama (includes Angst)
5. Horror
6. Humor
7. Mystery
8. Romance

C. Which of the following types of characters would you say is the
primary focus of your story?

1. Dwarves
2. Elves
3. Ents
4. Hobbits
5. Men
6. Valar/Ainur
7. Villains
8. Other
9. Story specifically interested in depicting and examining
interspecies interactions


D. Rank your category choices. In which of the above categories would
you *most prefer* your story to compete? Please list your first
category choice first, and your last category choice third (e.g., A,
C, B).



SUBCATEGORIES

Please fill in the following information/[Please select the following
from the drop-down lists provided or, if necessary, input the required
information in the "Other" textbox.] Your responses will help MEFA
categorizers create subcategories, subject to subcategory viability
rules. [webform: If answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."]

1. Where does your story primarily take place, or about which place
does your story revolve (e.g., Gondolin, Houses of Healing, Beleriand,
Rohan, The Angle, The Shire, Angband etc.)? Please limit yourself to
four or fewer main places.


2. Who are your *main* characters, in order of priority? (Acknowledged
groups such as "Fellowship", "Ringbearers", "Feanorians", etc., also
useful here.) Please limit yourself to four or fewer main
characters/groups of characters.


3. Which time periods does the story primarily take place in/focus on
(e.g., First Age, Time of Trees, Fourth Age, etc.)? Please limit
yourself to four or fewer times.


4. If your story is based on filmed versions of Tolkien's work, which
film/set of films is it based on?

5. Is there a major canonical event around which your story revolves
(e.g., Akallabeth, destruction of Sirion, making of Khazad-dûm, Battle
of Unnumbered Tears, etc.)? Please limit yourself to four or fewer events.

6. Is there a particular subgenre or form commonly used in fandom or
film/literature that you think is applicable to and a good description
of your story that isn't represented above (e.g., metafic, noir,
pastische, filk, etc.)?

7. If your story is a poem, what is its form (e.g., haiku, tanka,
terzanelle, sonnet, free verse etc.)?


8. If your story is non-fiction, what is its main topic?


9. If your story is non-fiction, is it an essay (offering
interpretation) or an article (research article meant to assist others
by gathering and presenting useful facts, but without offering an
interpretation)?


ATTENTION, MEFA CATEGORIZERS!

Have any of the questions in the CATEGORIES or SUBCATEGORIES sections
required you to reveal information that would effectively serve as a
spoiler for your story, and which you would prefer not to have
considered when categories and subcategories are formed? Please
indicate this by writing, for example, SUBCATEGORIES, #2.

[webform version: see revised instructions above]

This looks good…I do have a few further thoughts about the time
periods, however. The first three are nice and clear-cut. After
that, things get a little muddier…so here are my comments on the last
four, followed by some suggestions for new time periods.

> 4. Quest for Erebor - anything set around the events of _The
> Hobbit_, or about the characters and peoples of that book before or
> after the Quest for Erebor.

The timeframe here is a bit vague. I'm reading a great story by
Lindelea right now, "When Winter Fell," about young Bilbo and the
Fell Winter. It has nothing to do with the Quest for Erebor, but
would have to go here under the definition "the characters and
peoples of that book before or after the Quest for Erebor."

> 5. Pre-Quest - Stories about the characters and events occurring
> before Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the Quest but after the end of
> the Quest for Erebor.

As Dwim points out, if we adopt "The Great Years" or "Late Third
Age," this may no longer make sense as a separate category.

> 6. War of the Ring - Stories about the characters and events
> occurring after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the departure of
> Frodo and the Ringbearers from Middle-earth.

I agree that War of the Ring and Quest are both problematic. But if
Pre-Quest is eliminated as a category, "The Great Years" alone may be
too narrow, as where would that leave a young Frodo in Buckland
story, for instance? (Sorry for all the hobbity examples…is my bias
showing?) So I'm thinking we may need both late Third Age AND the
Great Years…

> 7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories about the events including but
> also following the sailing of the Ring Bearers, or crossovers
> between Middle-earth and the modern world.

Does this really need to include crossovers when we have a crossover
category under Genres? Won't that create confusion?

Based on the latest round of discussions, what does everyone think of
these revised time period categories? They are all Age-related,
leaving out labels like Quest and War.

A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?

1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
Morgoth.

2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
Last Alliance.

3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the
quest for Erebor.

4. The late Third Age – begins with the quest for Erebor and ends
with the start of the Great Years. (So this would basically combine
the two previous categories Quest for Erebor and Pre-Quest.)

5. The Great Years (April 12, 3018 through September 29, 3021) –
begins with Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton and ends with the departure
of the Ringbearers from Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age.

6. Fourth Age and beyond - Stories about the events following the
sailing of the Ring Bearers.

With this breakdown, "When Winter Fell" would fall under # 3, the
early Third Age, while the young Frodo story would go in # 4, the
late Third Age.

Under subcategories, I have just one question regarding # 3:

> Which time periods does the story primarily take place in/focus on
> (e.g., First Age, Time of Trees, Fourth Age, etc.)? Please limit
> yourself to four or fewer times.

Should this only include time period choices that are narrower than
those already given as main categories? I'm worried about the
creation of "mirror" categories here. So perhaps this should be re-
worded to say something like "Which time periods *not mentioned
above* does the story primarily take place in/focus on (e.g., Time of
Trees, Quest for Erebor, pre-quest, War of the Ring, post-quest,
etc.) These examples only make sense if the new time period
categories suggested above are adopted, of course…

Kathy (Inkling)


--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

>
>
> >
> > Can you post an updated version of the form so that we all have

that

> > available?
>
> Reposting form. Note changes to "Timeline" main category. Do those
> descriptions work, even leaving out the "Great Years" categorizing
> (that would seem to cover what we're calling 'Pre-Quest' at the
> moment...)?
>
> Also, I haven't gone back to refresh my memory on how the romance
> partners/warning fields work at the awards and so haven't done
> anything with redoing the warning fields since the current set-up is
> already equipped to handle write-in responses.
>
> Dwim
>
>
> STORY FORM: Please read *all* instructions, and complete all fields

to

> the extent required.
>
> BASICS
>
> Title: [already provided]
> Author: [already provided]
> Summary: [author provides]
> Rating (if incorrect, please change): [MEFA drop-down]
> Warnings: (choose what applies)
> Extreme violence
> Explicit depictions of sex
> Mature themes
> Extra-canonical romance: m/f
> Extra-canonical romance: m/m, f/f, slash
> Extra-canonical romance: multiple partners
> Incestuous attraction
> None
> URL (if not preferred site, please replace): [provided by nominator]
>
> Please choose *one* and *only one* from each of the following three

lists:

>
> My story is:
>
> 1. Bookverse: based on the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien and/or drafts
> made available by C. Tolkien
> 2. Filmverse: based on a film adaptation of "The Lord of the Rings"

or

> "The Hobbit"
>
> My story is:
>
> 1. Fiction
> 2. Non-fiction (if non-fiction, please skip to number 8 in
> "Subcategories")
>
>
> My story is best described as a...
>
> 1. Drabble (100 words exactly, plus 15 for title)
> 2. Drabble cycle (a series of individual drabbles connected by some

theme)

> 3. Ficlet (101 up to, but not including, 500 words)
> 4. Short Story (500-10,000 words)
> 5. Novella (10,001-50,000 words)
> 6. Novel (>50,000 words)
> 7. Poem (any length)
>
>
> MAIN CATEGORIES
>
> Please choose *one* and *only one* from each of the following lists.
> Your responses will help us to try to place your story in a MEFA
> category that is most appropriate.
>
> A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?
>
> 1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow

of

> Morgoth.
>
> 2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and

the

> Last Alliance.
>
> 3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the

quest

> for Erebor.
>
> 4. Quest for Erebor - anything set around the events of _The

Hobbit_,

> or about the characters and peoples of that book before or after the
> Quest for Erebor.
>
> 5. Pre-Quest - Stories about the characters and events occuring

before

> Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the Quest but after the end of the

Quest

> for Erebor.
>
> 6. War of the Ring - Stories about the characters and events

occuring

> after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the departure of Frodo and

the

> Ringbearers from Middle-earth.
>
> 7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories about the events including but

also

> following the sailing of the Ring Bearers, or crossovers between
> Middle-earth and the modern world.
>
>
> B. Which of these genres best describes your story?
>
> 1. Action/Adventure
> 2. Alternate Universe
> 3. Crossover
> 4. Drama (includes Angst)
> 5. Horror
> 6. Humor
> 7. Mystery
> 8. Romance
>
> C. Which of the following types of characters would you say is the
> primary focus of your story?
>
> 1. Dwarves
> 2. Elves
> 3. Ents
> 4. Hobbits
> 5. Men
> 6. Valar/Ainur
> 7. Villains
> 8. Other
> 9. Story specifically interested in depicting and examining
> interspecies interactions
>
>
> D. Rank your category choices. In which of the above categories

would

> you *most prefer* your story to compete? Please list your first
> category choice first, and your last category choice third (e.g., A,
> C, B).
>
>
>
> SUBCATEGORIES
>
> Please fill in the following information/[Please select the

following

> from the drop-down lists provided or, if necessary, input the

required

> information in the "Other" textbox.] Your responses will help MEFA
> categorizers create subcategories, subject to subcategory viability
> rules. [webform: If answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
> your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."]
>
> 1. Where does your story primarily take place, or about which place
> does your story revolve (e.g., Gondolin, Houses of Healing,

Beleriand,

> Rohan, The Angle, The Shire, Angband etc.)? Please limit yourself to
> four or fewer main places.
>
>
> 2. Who are your *main* characters, in order of priority?

(Acknowledged

> groups such as "Fellowship", "Ringbearers", "Feanorians", etc., also
> useful here.) Please limit yourself to four or fewer main
> characters/groups of characters.
>
>
> 3. Which time periods does the story primarily take place in/focus

on

> (e.g., First Age, Time of Trees, Fourth Age, etc.)? Please limit
> yourself to four or fewer times.
>
>
> 4. If your story is based on filmed versions of Tolkien's work,

which

> film/set of films is it based on?
>
> 5. Is there a major canonical event around which your story revolves
> (e.g., Akallabeth, destruction of Sirion, making of Khazad-dûm,

Battle

> of Unnumbered Tears, etc.)? Please limit yourself to four or fewer

events.

>
> 6. Is there a particular subgenre or form commonly used in fandom or
> film/literature that you think is applicable to and a good

description

> of your story that isn't represented above (e.g., metafic, noir,
> pastische, filk, etc.)?
>
> 7. If your story is a poem, what is its form (e.g., haiku, tanka,
> terzanelle, sonnet, free verse etc.)?
>
>
> 8. If your story is non-fiction, what is its main topic?
>
>
> 9. If your story is non-fiction, is it an essay (offering
> interpretation) or an article (research article meant to assist

others

> by gathering and presenting useful facts, but without offering an
> interpretation)?
>
>
> ATTENTION, MEFA CATEGORIZERS!
>
> Have any of the questions in the CATEGORIES or SUBCATEGORIES

sections

> required you to reveal information that would effectively serve as a
> spoiler for your story, and which you would prefer not to have
> considered when categories and subcategories are formed? Please
> indicate this by writing, for example, SUBCATEGORIES, #2.
>
> [webform version: see revised instructions above]
>

>
>
> Based on the latest round of discussions, what does everyone think of
> these revised time period categories? They are all Age-related,
> leaving out labels like Quest and War.
>
> A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?
>
> 1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
> Morgoth.
>
> 2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
> Last Alliance.
>
> 3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the
> quest for Erebor.
>
> 4. The late Third Age ý begins with the quest for Erebor and ends
> with the start of the Great Years. (So this would basically combine
> the two previous categories Quest for Erebor and Pre-Quest.)
>
> 5. The Great Years (April 12, 3018 through September 29, 3021) ý
> begins with Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton and ends with the departure
> of the Ringbearers from Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age.
>
> 6. Fourth Age and beyond - Stories about the events following the
> sailing of the Ring Bearers.
>
> With this breakdown, "When Winter Fell" would fall under # 3, the
> early Third Age, while the young Frodo story would go in # 4, the
> late Third Age.

I like this breakdown (although I can live with modern crossovers being in
the Fourth Age as well), and prefer the sailing to be in the Great Years
over the Fourth Age. I'd suggest that the break for Late Third Age come at
the birth of Bilbo or the oldest of the Dwarves he went with, as the current
description leaves it possible for someone to be writing Young Gandalf,
which would be a different time period altogether.



Under subcategories, I have just one question regarding # 3:

>
> > Which time periods does the story primarily take place in/focus on
> > (e.g., First Age, Time of Trees, Fourth Age, etc.)? Please limit
> > yourself to four or fewer times.
>
> Should this only include time period choices that are narrower than
> those already given as main categories? I'm worried about the
> creation of "mirror" categories here. So perhaps this should be re-
> worded to say something like "Which time periods *not mentioned
> above* does the story primarily take place in/focus on (e.g., Time of
> Trees, Quest for Erebor, pre-quest, War of the Ring, post-quest,
> etc.) These examples only make sense if the new time period
> categories suggested above are adopted, of courseý
>
> Kathy (Inkling)

"Time periods not mentioned above" is good, as long as we're willing to go
back and define some of the terms. "Quest for Erebor", believe it or not,
sounds like jargon to someone who hasn't delved very deeply into the books,
and even knowing what you mean I could argue that the Quest starts with the
Dwarves, not Bilbo, and then when does it begin?

What might work as well or instead is:

What books and chapters or quotes (or film scenes) does your story fit into
or take inspiration from? For example: "LotR (III, 5) The White Rider", or
"Hobbit, the part where Bilbo visits Rivendell for the second time on his
way home." If not within the events of the books, please locate it on the
timeline descriptively. For example: "Birth of Frodo", "Aragorn's
childhood", "Denethor's first year as Steward," or "lifespan of Hamfast
Gamgee".

Since the subcategorization process has some flexibility, the descriptions
don't have to be precise, just helpful.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

>> If "War of the Ring" still seems too arbitrary here, I would
>> suggest:
>>
>> Pre-Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The
>> Lord of the Rings" set before Frodo leaves Bag End to begin the
>> Quest.
>>
>> Quest: Stories about the characters and events covered by "The
>> Lord of the Rings" set after Frodo leaves Bag End and prior to the
>> departure of Frodo and the Ringbearers from Middle-earth.
>>
>> Fourth Age and Beyond: Stories about the events after the sailing
>> of the Ring-bearers, or crossovers between Middle-earth and the
>> modern world.
>
> The problem is the label "Quest" -- the stuff set after the Ring War
> may have next to nothing to do with the actual Quest. The label also
> doesn't seem to include stories about Gondor or Rohan before the
> Fellowship crew show up, or stories about the occupation of the
> Shire.
> I think people would get that's where they should put those stories,
> but I think a label like "Great Years" or "Late Third Age" might
> work better.

I agree, especially seen from the Rohirrim/Gondorian pov.

There is a lot going on before the Quest starts in those country,
before Frodo leaves the shire so I would be really at loss where to
place those. I rather see War of the Ring (because it can cover the
ongoing troubles in Rohan and Gondor as well), I find Quest too
focused on Frodo. Imho. Nothing wrong with Frodo, far from it...

Ok, have to quit rambling..

Rhapsody
(still pretty much wiped out for coherent posts)

>
>
> "Time periods not mentioned above" is good, as long as we're

willing to go

> back and define some of the terms. "Quest for Erebor", believe it

or not,

> sounds like jargon to someone who hasn't delved very deeply into

the books,

> and even knowing what you mean I could argue that the Quest starts

with the

> Dwarves, not Bilbo, and then when does it begin?

The irony here is that if "Quest for Erebor" or "Ring War/War of the
Ring" is taken as ambiguous or jargon, "Great Years" is even more so.

The description after the category name is what is important for
demarcating boundaries; after that, what we're looking for are short,
descriptive category names that best fit what we're talking about.

And with regard to descriptive category names, what I think we have
here is a choice between terminology that is misleading because it is
associated with a book ("Quest for Erebor", "War of the Ring") so
closely that it can be interpreted to mean several reasonable
starting and ending time periods (but at least we all have a sense of
what we're talking about and so can argue over it in these terms),
and terminology which is not misleading only because it is obscure
and conveys nothing to the minds of those who haven't delved into the
Appendices (and even for those who have delved, many will probably
have to go look them up again to see what the starting dates are and
what the ending dates are).

The upside of choosing "Great Years" is that with time, we get used
to just about everything so long as it isn't originally invested with
a lot of connotative meaning. Which, I think, "The Great Years"
arguably aren't, not by comparison with "War of the Ring", "Quest for
Erebor", etc. The downside is initial confusion and possibly
questions about why couldn't we have stuck with something more
obvious.

The upside of choosing something like "Pre-Quest", "Quest for
Erebor", etc., is that people in the fandom will most likely have a
certain familiarity with these terms and so feel more immediately in
control of the nomination form. The downside is, as RSF and Kathy
points out, that we can all disagree on the exact starting and ending
points of these more general, connotation-heavy terms.

> What might work as well or instead is:
>
> What books and chapters or quotes (or film scenes) does your story

fit into

> or take inspiration from? For example: "LotR (III, 5) The White

Rider", or

> "Hobbit, the part where Bilbo visits Rivendell for the second time

on his

> way home." If not within the events of the books, please locate

it on the

> timeline descriptively. For example: "Birth of Frodo", "Aragorn's
> childhood", "Denethor's first year as Steward," or "lifespan of

Hamfast

> Gamgee".

The problem I see here is that this is probably still too precise to
generate answers that are going to be comparable. If the author can
really do that, terrific. But many will not be able to do so, I
think. It's going to be a balance between time frames that are too
narrow and idiosynchratic to easily generate comparisons among other
subcategory suggestions and time frames that do not sufficiently
differentiate themselves from the major timeline categories described
above. Either way, lots more work for admins, possibly more than
desired.

We might ask the question: does it seem likely to be useful to retain
the time period question for use in subcategorizing? Should there be
a different question here, one that won't risk (as Kathy and RSF
point out) generating mirroring c/s combinations?

Dwim

> > We might ask the question: does it seem likely to be useful to

retain > the time period question for use in subcategorizing? Should
there be > a different question here, one that won't risk (as Kathy
and RSF > point out) generating mirroring c/s combinations?

> > Dwim>

it seems to me that some years/time periods make better subcates than
others. Years of the Trees, First Age, Fourth Age, Modern Days - seem
like reasonable subcates, but I think that Third Age is a popular
enough period that it could (and should) be divided by more specific
criteria. - but I don't think you can do that without
duplicating/mirroring/reversing the main and sub cates if
Age/Race/Genre are all being used as main cates.

I have to admit, I simply completely don't understand the concept of
using three main cate systems and so I don't feel I can be much help
with this. It seems much much too complicated to me.

I think that it is aimed toward having more flexibility but I'm not
sure it's working that well. It seems to me that this system is
headed back toward more work on the categorizers instead of simply
letting the author say where they want the work to run and creating
more specific subcates as the existing ones get full.

sorry I can't be more help with this one. :(

Hi Dwim,

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, do the concerns
you express here pertain only to the subcategory time period issue,
or also to the new main category time periods I proposed?
Specfically, were you concerned that "The Great Years" was too
jargony or unfamiliar to be used *anywhere*, including as a main
category time period? I broke it out mainly because so many stories
are set during those years, and also because it's easily defined.
But if it seems too obscure, it could always be folded into Late
Third Age, I suppose. I still think we are better off avoiding
things like "Ring War" or "Quest" as main time period cats...Ages
are more neutral and broader in scope.

Re: the subcats, I can see your point and I'm not sure what the
answer is. I do see some merit in having a subcategory question that
narrows down a story's time period, but whether it's absolutely
necessary, and if so which system should we use, I don't know. If we
use drop-down lists for subcats in the form, then we will have
greater control over the multitude of time periods people might
suggest. If it's purely write-in then we'd better make it very clear
which type we're looking for...it would be a nightmare to have some
people using things like "War of the Ring" and others using "LotR
(III, 5) The White Rider."

Kathy (Inkling)

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

>
>
> >
> >
> > "Time periods not mentioned above" is good, as long as we're
> willing to go
> > back and define some of the terms. "Quest for Erebor", believe it
> or not,
> > sounds like jargon to someone who hasn't delved very deeply into
> the books,
> > and even knowing what you mean I could argue that the Quest

starts

> with the
> > Dwarves, not Bilbo, and then when does it begin?
>
> The irony here is that if "Quest for Erebor" or "Ring War/War of

the

> Ring" is taken as ambiguous or jargon, "Great Years" is even more

so.

>
> The description after the category name is what is important for
> demarcating boundaries; after that, what we're looking for are

short,

> descriptive category names that best fit what we're talking about.
>
> And with regard to descriptive category names, what I think we have
> here is a choice between terminology that is misleading because it

is

> associated with a book ("Quest for Erebor", "War of the Ring") so
> closely that it can be interpreted to mean several reasonable
> starting and ending time periods (but at least we all have a sense

of

> what we're talking about and so can argue over it in these terms),
> and terminology which is not misleading only because it is obscure
> and conveys nothing to the minds of those who haven't delved into

the

> Appendices (and even for those who have delved, many will probably
> have to go look them up again to see what the starting dates are

and

> what the ending dates are).
>
> The upside of choosing "Great Years" is that with time, we get used
> to just about everything so long as it isn't originally invested

with

> a lot of connotative meaning. Which, I think, "The Great Years"
> arguably aren't, not by comparison with "War of the Ring", "Quest

for

> Erebor", etc. The downside is initial confusion and possibly
> questions about why couldn't we have stuck with something more
> obvious.
>
> The upside of choosing something like "Pre-Quest", "Quest for
> Erebor", etc., is that people in the fandom will most likely have a
> certain familiarity with these terms and so feel more immediately

in

> control of the nomination form. The downside is, as RSF and Kathy
> points out, that we can all disagree on the exact starting and

ending

> points of these more general, connotation-heavy terms.
>
> > What might work as well or instead is:
> >
> > What books and chapters or quotes (or film scenes) does your

story

> fit into
> > or take inspiration from? For example: "LotR (III, 5) The White
> Rider", or
> > "Hobbit, the part where Bilbo visits Rivendell for the second

time

> on his
> > way home." If not within the events of the books, please locate
> it on the
> > timeline descriptively. For example: "Birth of Frodo", "Aragorn's
> > childhood", "Denethor's first year as Steward," or "lifespan of
> Hamfast
> > Gamgee".
>
> The problem I see here is that this is probably still too precise

to

> generate answers that are going to be comparable. If the author can
> really do that, terrific. But many will not be able to do so, I
> think. It's going to be a balance between time frames that are too
> narrow and idiosynchratic to easily generate comparisons among

other

> subcategory suggestions and time frames that do not sufficiently
> differentiate themselves from the major timeline categories

described

> above. Either way, lots more work for admins, possibly more than
> desired.
>
> We might ask the question: does it seem likely to be useful to

retain

> the time period question for use in subcategorizing? Should there

be

> a different question here, one that won't risk (as Kathy and RSF
> point out) generating mirroring c/s combinations?
>
> Dwim
>

Hey guys,

I think we might be making the categories dealing with time periods too
complicated, because they're *just* dealing with time periods and not
the sources that tell us about those time periods. And I think the
categories should still be based on time periods, but maybe looking at
where those stories come from will help us see where to draw the lines
between categories. I think we all agree on how to deal with everything
but the Third Age, so I'll focus in on that.

First, there's the events that happened before the birth of the
characters we see in _The Hobbit_ and _Lord of the Rings_. These are
events taken from the histories of Gondor and Rohan in the Appendices
(or stories from the same time period in other books like UT). Or the
founding of the Shire. Or the rape of Celbrian, etc. These generally
won't involve characters we see in the main narrative of LOTR (except
possibly some Elves or Gandalf).

Next are the stories about the characters of "Lord of the Rings" before
the events of that book. The childhood stories about all of them, and
perhaps stories about Denethor and Finduilas, or about Bilbo's birthday
party or the earlier parts of Aragorn and Arwen's romance. Again most
of the inspiration is going to come from outside the main narrative of
LOTR, but now we're dealing with pieces wehre the main characters are
mostly also the players in the Ring War.

Then there are the actual stories that are set around the stories in
the main part of LOTR. All the gap-fillers between Frodo's leaving Bag
End and the end of the Third Age. All of the politicking in Gondor and
Rohan before the Fellowship arrives. The occupation of the Shire. And
all of the loose ends that were tied up between the destruction of the
Ring and the end of the Third Age.

A category based around the events of "The Hobbit", whatever we call
it, seems out of place. If we're truly going by the time periods and
not the source, then it seems like those events shouldn't be their own
category. They're just so integrated into everything else that was
going on. Therefore I suggest the following categories for the Third
Age:

1. Early Third Age: Stories set in the Third Age before 2900. These
stories should draw from the histories of the cultures of Middle-earth,
and in most cases will not involve characters who feature into "The
Lord of the Rings".
2. Late Third Age: Stories set between TA 2900 and TA 3017. Stories in
this category may include stories based around The Hobbit or about the
childhood of the characters of LOTR.
3. The Great Years: Stories set between TA 3018 and TA 3022. These
stories should be set around events like the Quest to destroy the Ring,
pre-war politics in Rohan and Gondor, the occupation of the Shire, the
War of the Ring itself, and the aftermath of the Ring War before the
Ring-bearers sailed West.

Which means we would have:

1. First Age and Earlier
2. Second Age
3. Early Third Age
4. Late Third Age
5. The Great Years
6. Fourth Age and Beyond

Marta

Hi Dwim,

> Also, I haven't gone back to refresh my memory on how the romance
> partners/warning fields work at the awards and so haven't done
> anything with redoing the warning fields since the current set-up is
> already equipped to handle write-in responses.
>

Last year on the nomination form, the nominator selected a rating,
entered a reason for rating (which would include a warning for
erotic/romantic/whatever content, but not necessarily for het or
slash), and entered in the romantic partners (or m/m, f/f, or m/f if
you wanted to keep the exact characters secret.

That said, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the
other. Whatever most people want and is easiest for Anthony.

> SUBCATEGORIES
>
> Please fill in the following information/[Please select the following
> from the drop-down lists provided or, if necessary, input the required
> information in the "Other" textbox.] Your responses will help MEFA
> categorizers create subcategories, subject to subcategory viability
> rules. [webform: If answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
> your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."]
>

I know this year some stories about Merry and Pippin in Rohan ended up
in the Rohan category, and we had to fix it when checking ballots. To
keep that from happening again, I'd like to make it clear that an
author should only put something in these fields if they want it to be
used for a sub-category. Maybe "Your answers to these questions will
help MEFA categorizers place your story into a subcategory, subject to
subcategory viability rules. If you do not want your story to compete
in a subcategory based on the answer to a particular story (if, for
example, your story is set in Rohan but you do not want this to be its
subcategory), or if answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."

Marta

> > 7. Fourth Age and Beyond - Stories about the events including but
> > also following the sailing of the Ring Bearers, or crossovers
> > between Middle-earth and the modern world.
>
> Does this really need to include crossovers when we have a crossover
> category under Genres?  Won't that create confusion?
>

I wondered about that. But where should stories where Middle-earth
intersects modern earth (like some historical figure meeting an
immortal who stayed) be, if not here? Remember that all stories have to
have a time period as well as a genre and a race now.

> Under subcategories, I have just one question regarding # 3:
>
> > Which time periods does the story primarily take place in/focus on
> > (e.g., First Age, Time of Trees, Fourth Age, etc.)? Please limit
> > yourself to four or fewer times.
>
> Should this only include time period choices that are narrower than
> those already given as main categories?  I'm worried about the
> creation of "mirror" categories here.  So perhaps this should be re-
> worded to say something like "Which time periods *not mentioned
> above* does the story primarily take place in/focus on (e.g., Time of
> Trees, Quest for Erebor, pre-quest, War of the Ring, post-quest,
> etc.)  These examples only make sense if the new time period
> categories suggested above are adopted, of course&
>
> Kathy (Inkling)
>

Yes, it should. Definitely.

Marta

Hi RSF,

On 28 Nov 2005, at 08:36, rabidsamfan wrote:

>>
>>
>> Based on the latest round of discussions, what does everyone think of
>> these revised time period categories? They are all Age-related,
>> leaving out labels like Quest and War.
>>
>> A. Which of these time periods is your story based in?
>>
>> 1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
>> Morgoth.
>>
>> 2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
>> Last Alliance.
>>
>> 3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the
>> quest for Erebor.
>>
>> 4. The late Third Age – begins with the quest for Erebor and ends
>> with the start of the Great Years. (So this would basically combine
>> the two previous categories Quest for Erebor and Pre-Quest.)
>>
>> 5. The Great Years (April 12, 3018 through September 29, 3021) –
>> begins with Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton and ends with the departure
>> of the Ringbearers from Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age.
>>
>> 6. Fourth Age and beyond - Stories about the events following the
>> sailing of the Ring Bearers.
>>
>> With this breakdown, "When Winter Fell" would fall under # 3, the
>> early Third Age, while the young Frodo story would go in # 4, the
>> late Third Age.
>
>
> I like this breakdown (although I can live with modern crossovers
> being in
> the Fourth Age as well), and prefer the sailing to be in the Great
> Years
> over the Fourth Age. I'd suggest that the break for Late Third Age
> come at
> the birth of Bilbo or the oldest of the Dwarves he went with, as the
> current
> description leaves it possible for someone to be writing Young Gandalf,
> which would be a different time period altogether.
>

When *was* Bilbo born? I suggested a splitting point of 2900 (I think
it's good to give a round figure people can remember), but I have no
problem pushing that back to 2850 if necessary.

Marta

> > The problem is the label "Quest" -- the stuff set after the Ring War
> > may have next to nothing to do with the actual Quest. The label also
> > doesn't seem to include stories about Gondor or Rohan before the
> > Fellowship crew show up, or stories about the occupation of the
> > Shire.
> > I think people would get that's where they should put those stories,
> > but I think a label like "Great Years" or "Late Third Age" might
> > work better.
>
> I agree, especially seen from the Rohirrim/Gondorian pov.
>
> There is a lot going on before the Quest starts in those country,
> before Frodo leaves the shire so I would be really at loss where to
> place those. I rather see War of the Ring (because it can cover the
> ongoing troubles in Rohan and Gondor as well), I find Quest too
> focused on Frodo. Imho. Nothing wrong with Frodo, far from it...
>

It just occurred to me, books III and V of LOTR have nothing to do with
the destruction of the Ring. Well, maybe not nothing as the Ring's
presence is certainly discussed, but it's about other events. And I
think that that's a major point of LOTR: there's more to any historical
event than one single massive effort (the Quest for the Ring), but
similarly the big picture of the War is meaningless without those
heroic efforts.

So, yes, I think the title really needs to reflect both sides.

Marta

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

> When *was* Bilbo born? I suggested a splitting point of 2900 (I think
> it's good to give a round figure people can remember), but I have no
> problem pushing that back to 2850 if necessary.

22 September 2890 TA.

Rhapsody

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:

>
> Hi Dwim,
>
> > Also, I haven't gone back to refresh my memory on how the romance
> > partners/warning fields work at the awards and so haven't done
> > anything with redoing the warning fields since the current set-up is
> > already equipped to handle write-in responses.
> >
>
> Last year on the nomination form, the nominator selected a rating,
> entered a reason for rating (which would include a warning for
> erotic/romantic/whatever content, but not necessarily for het or
> slash), and entered in the romantic partners (or m/m, f/f, or m/f if
> you wanted to keep the exact characters secret.
>
> That said, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the
> other. Whatever most people want and is easiest for Anthony.

Then let's leave it as it is--I mean the code already in place. You're
right to remind me that part of the reason for adopting the current
system was an effort to avoid fandom politics about het versus slash
versus gen, etc. and it seems no one has trouble navigating it.

>
> > SUBCATEGORIES
> >
> > Please fill in the following information/[Please select the following
> > from the drop-down lists provided or, if necessary, input the

required

> > information in the "Other" textbox.] Your responses will help MEFA
> > categorizers create subcategories, subject to subcategory viability
> > rules. [webform: If answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
> > your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."]
> >
>
> I know this year some stories about Merry and Pippin in Rohan ended up
> in the Rohan category, and we had to fix it when checking ballots. To
> keep that from happening again, I'd like to make it clear that an
> author should only put something in these fields if they want it to be
> used for a sub-category. Maybe "Your answers to these questions will
> help MEFA categorizers place your story into a subcategory, subject to
> subcategory viability rules. If you do not want your story to compete
> in a subcategory based on the answer to a particular [question] (if,

for

> example, your story is set in Rohan but you do not want this to be its
> subcategory), or if answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
> your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."

Works for me.

Dwim

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:

>
> Hi Dwim,
>
> Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, do the concerns
> you express here pertain only to the subcategory time period issue,
> or also to the new main category time periods I proposed?

Sorry, I was responding to what *seemed* to be a main category
suggestion by RSF. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in principle opposed to
"Great Years" as either a subcategory or a main category; my objection
is based on the *reason* for switching to that terminology. If "Quest
for Erebor" is jargon, by definition so is "Great Years" and arguably
it's much less accessible to a majority of fans, particularly those
who primarily work with the movieverse.

But as noted, it's going to be the description of the category that's
most useful, so if the breaks are carefully defined, we should be able
to use it.

<snip>

>
> Re: the subcats, I can see your point and I'm not sure what the
> answer is. I do see some merit in having a subcategory question that
> narrows down a story's time period, but whether it's absolutely
> necessary, and if so which system should we use, I don't know. If we
> use drop-down lists for subcats in the form, then we will have
> greater control over the multitude of time periods people might
> suggest. If it's purely write-in then we'd better make it very clear
> which type we're looking for...it would be a nightmare to have some
> people using things like "War of the Ring" and others using "LotR
> (III, 5) The White Rider."

I'm not sure what the answer is either. Intuition says that if not
prompted to give extremely precise, chapter-based replies, people will
automatically seek out more general descriptors, since that's what the
idea of "subcategory" will probably prompt them to think of.

Dwim

On 29 Nov 2005, at 03:19, rhapsody_the_bard wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>
> > When *was* Bilbo born? I suggested a splitting point of 2900 (I
> think
> > it's good to give a round figure people can remember), but I have no
> > problem pushing that back to 2850 if necessary.
>
> 22 September 2890 TA.
>
> Rhapsody
>

Okay, I wasn't sure. Thanks for letting me know.

So why don't we make the division between early and late TA be 2850,
just to be on the safe side? That allows for characters who were a
little older than Bilbo (like the Dwarves), and the events just before
their birth, and gives us a nice, round number.

Marta

I agree on all this - just want to acknowledge it so you guys aren't
waiting for a reply from me.

Marta

On 29 Nov 2005, at 11:08, dwimmer_laik wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dwim,
> >
> > >  Also, I haven't gone back to refresh my memory on how the romance
> > >  partners/warning fields work at the awards and so haven't done
> > >  anything with redoing the warning fields since the current
> set-up is
> > >  already equipped to handle write-in responses.
> > >
> >
> > Last year on the nomination form, the nominator selected a rating,
> > entered a reason for rating (which would include a warning for
> > erotic/romantic/whatever content, but not necessarily for het or
> > slash), and entered in the romantic partners (or m/m, f/f, or m/f if
> > you wanted to keep the exact characters secret.
> >
> > That said, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the
> > other. Whatever most people want and is easiest for Anthony.
>
>
> Then let's leave it as it is--I mean the code already in place. You're
> right to remind me that part of the reason for adopting the current
> system was an effort to avoid fandom politics about het versus slash
> versus gen, etc. and it seems no one has trouble navigating it.
>
> >
> > >  SUBCATEGORIES
> > >
> > >  Please fill in the following information/[Please select the
> following
> > >  from the drop-down lists provided or, if necessary, input the
> required
> > >  information in the "Other" textbox.] Your responses will help
> MEFA
> > >  categorizers create subcategories, subject to subcategory
> viability
> > >  rules. [webform: If answering a question would serve as a
> spoiler to
> > >  your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."]
> > >
> >
> > I know this year some stories about Merry and Pippin in Rohan ended
> up
> > in the Rohan category, and we had to fix it when checking ballots.
> To
> > keep that from happening again, I'd like to make it clear that an
> > author should only put something in these fields if they want it to
> be
> > used for a sub-category. Maybe "Your answers to these questions will
> > help MEFA categorizers place your story into a subcategory, subject
> to
> > subcategory viability rules. If you do not want your story to
> compete
> > in a subcategory based on the answer to a particular [question] (if,
> for
> > example, your story is set in Rohan but you do not want this to be
> its
> > subcategory), or if answering a question would serve as a spoiler to
> > your story, please check the box "Decline to answer."
>
> Works for me.
>
> Dwim
>
>
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
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>
>
>
*****
"Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our greatest fear is
that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness
that most frightens us. [...] As we let our own light shine, we
unconsciously give other people permission to do the same."

(Nelson Mandela)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]