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-- "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> The upside of choosing "Great Years" is that with time, we get used
>> to just about everything so long as it isn't originally invested
>> with a lot of connotative meaning. Which, I think, "The Great
>> Years" arguably aren't, not by comparison with "War of the
>> Ring", "Quest for Erebor", etc. The downside is initial confusion
>> and possibly questions about why couldn't we have stuck with
>> something more obvious.

I like "Great Years" as a time category. It means something to me, at least, if for no other reason than the fact that I'm a very strange person and like to peruse the appendices. But that aside, I think it's a nice, broad term that doesn't put unequal emphasis on either the Gondor/Rohan/War side or the Frodo/Shire/Quest side.

Once question, though (and my apologies if this has been addressed and I just missed it): Would "Great Years" be specific to 3018-3021 or would it cover the last half of the Third Age? If the former, will "Quest for Erebor" still be around as a category to catch stories about Bilbo, Smaug, and the dwarves? And where would stories about the Steward's familiy go (AKA younger Denethor and really young Boromir and Faramir)? If the latter, are we still separating out the time period associated with "The Hobbit" and then bumping all later events (for example, Merry and Pippin childhood stories) up into "Great Years"? Or would "The Hobbit" be included?

>> We might ask the question: does it seem likely to be useful to
>> retain the time period question for use in subcategorizing? Should
>> there be a different question here, one that won't risk (as Kathy
>> and RSF point out) generating mirroring c/s combinations?

I would say, yes, it's good to have time as a distinguishing feature. But that's mainly because of the Silmarillion fics and the multi-chaptered post-Third Age fics. There are several other types that come to mind as well, but those are the primary reasons. I like keeping the Silm stuff together (both the First Age stuff as well as the Second Age and Numenor stuff) because fewer people are familiar with those time periods and I don't think it would be fair to force a Dior/Nimloth fic to compete with a better known pairing, such as Aragorn/Arwen. Of course, it can easily be argued that this isn't so much a matter of time as it is a matter of books and grouping, but it seems easier to classify it as time because HOME deals a lot with the Silm time period, too, and has extra tidbits not found in the Silm. So if they can all be lumped together under a general time heading, that strikes me as simpler.

The multi-chaptered post-Ring War fics need some kind of time category, too, as most of them contain multiple races and many of them focus on more than one genre (humor, romance, angst, drama, action, adventure, etc.) The emphasis is not necessarily the races or the conflicts between them, and neither is it the genres. These stories are simply about things that happened after the Ring-bearers passed over the Sea. And the easiest way to classify them is to do so by time period.

So yes, time period is important. But to me, it seems most important for stories on either side of the Third Age. And perhaps we're spending a bit too much time obsessing about where we're going to draw the line concening Great Years/Post-Ring War/Pre-Quest/War of the Ring stuff. But for what it's worth, that's my two cents.

Thundera


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Hi Laura,

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <thunderalaura@j...> wrote:
>
> I like "Great Years" as a time category. It means something to me,
> at least, if for no other reason than the fact that I'm a very
> strange person and like to peruse the appendices. But that aside, I
> think it's a nice, broad term that doesn't put unequal emphasis on
> either the Gondor/Rohan/War side or the Frodo/Shire/Quest side.

Yes, that's what I like about it too, and about the Age-based time
periods.
>
> Once question, though (and my apologies if this has been addressed
> and I just missed it): Would "Great Years" be specific to 3018-3021
> or would it cover the last half of the Third Age? If the former,
> will "Quest for Erebor" still be around as a category to catch
> stories about Bilbo, Smaug, and the dwarves? And where would
> stories about the Steward's familiy go (AKA younger Denethor and
> really young Boromir and Faramir)? If the latter, are we still
> separating out the time period associated with "The Hobbit" and
> then bumping all later events (for example, Merry and Pippin
> childhood stories) up into "Great Years"? Or would "The Hobbit" be
> included?

Laura, in case you missed it here the revised main-category time
periods I proposed:

1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
Morgoth.

2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
Last Alliance.

3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the
quest for Erebor.

4. The late Third Age – begins with the quest for Erebor and ends
with the start of the Great Years. (So this would basically combine
the two previous categories Quest for Erebor and Pre-Quest.)

5. The Great Years (April 12, 3018 through September 29, 3021) –
begins with Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton and ends with the departure
of the Ringbearers from Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age.

6. Fourth Age and beyond - Stories about the events following the
sailing of the Ring Bearers.

So in this scenario, a Quest for Erebor story would go in the Late
Third Age category, as would the Steward and young Merry and Pippin
stories. This is where I can see time-based subcategories coming in
handy, to further break these stories down. So (assuming you had
indicated Time Period as your first preference), you could have a
story competing in the main cat/subcat combo Late Third Age/Quest for
Erebor, etc.
>
> And perhaps we're spending a bit too much time obsessing about
> where we're going to draw the line concening Great Years/Post-Ring
> War/Pre-Quest/War of the Ring stuff.

LOL! Are we spending too much time obsessing? Yes...at least I am!
Will someone please smack me and tell me to stop? Or at least direct
me to the nearest chapter of Policy Wonks Anonymous? I have a story
to finish by Tolkien's birthday, and at this rate I'm never gonna
make it! In any case I've pretty much said my piece on this topic,
and am happy to go with whatever you all decide.

Kathy (Inkling)

The function of subcategories under the major categories of time would be to
help the categorizers make competition groups that are roughly equal in
size. The more specific the description we have, the easier it is to nudge
borderline cases one way or the other. Since the subcategories are not
necessarily predetermined, the best data gives us the widest options.

Say there are 100 stories set in The Great Years, and of that hundred, ten
are about the trip through Moria, and eleven are about Eowyn and Eomer
trying to deal with the deteriorating situation in Edoras. Those
two times/places might count as subcategories of their own, while the four
stories set at Weathertop and the three stories set at the Ford of Bruinen
and the two stories set in Rivendell all get lumped together into a category
called "Ringquest, Weathertop to Rivendell", and the scattering of stories
set from Mt. Doom till the parting of Arwen and Elrond might be another
group, even though the drabble about Legolas' visit to the Glittering Caves
got shunted off with a handful of others to "Races/Cross Cultural -
Friendship - Legolas and Gimli".

Does that make sense?

On 11/28/05, Kathy <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Laura,
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <thunderalaura@j...> wrote:
> >
> > I like "Great Years" as a time category. It means something to me,
> > at least, if for no other reason than the fact that I'm a very
> > strange person and like to peruse the appendices. But that aside, I
> > think it's a nice, broad term that doesn't put unequal emphasis on
> > either the Gondor/Rohan/War side or the Frodo/Shire/Quest side.
>
> Yes, that's what I like about it too, and about the Age-based time
> periods.
> >
> > Once question, though (and my apologies if this has been addressed
> > and I just missed it): Would "Great Years" be specific to 3018-3021
> > or would it cover the last half of the Third Age? If the former,
> > will "Quest for Erebor" still be around as a category to catch
> > stories about Bilbo, Smaug, and the dwarves? And where would
> > stories about the Steward's familiy go (AKA younger Denethor and
> > really young Boromir and Faramir)? If the latter, are we still
> > separating out the time period associated with "The Hobbit" and
> > then bumping all later events (for example, Merry and Pippin
> > childhood stories) up into "Great Years"? Or would "The Hobbit" be
> > included?
>
> Laura, in case you missed it here the revised main-category time
> periods I proposed:
>
> 1. Before the end of the First Age - anything before the overthrow of
> Morgoth.
>
> 2. The Second Age - anything between the overthrow of Morgoth and the
> Last Alliance.
>
> 3. The early Third Age - anything during the Third Age before the
> quest for Erebor.
>
> 4. The late Third Age ý begins with the quest for Erebor and ends
> with the start of the Great Years. (So this would basically combine
> the two previous categories Quest for Erebor and Pre-Quest.)
>
> 5. The Great Years (April 12, 3018 through September 29, 3021) ý
> begins with Gandalf's arrival in Hobbiton and ends with the departure
> of the Ringbearers from Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age.
>
> 6. Fourth Age and beyond - Stories about the events following the
> sailing of the Ring Bearers.
>
> So in this scenario, a Quest for Erebor story would go in the Late
> Third Age category, as would the Steward and young Merry and Pippin
> stories. This is where I can see time-based subcategories coming in
> handy, to further break these stories down. So (assuming you had
> indicated Time Period as your first preference), you could have a
> story competing in the main cat/subcat combo Late Third Age/Quest for
> Erebor, etc.
> >
> > And perhaps we're spending a bit too much time obsessing about
> > where we're going to draw the line concening Great Years/Post-Ring
> > War/Pre-Quest/War of the Ring stuff.
>
> LOL! Are we spending too much time obsessing? Yes...at least I am!
> Will someone please smack me and tell me to stop? Or at least direct
> me to the nearest chapter of Policy Wonks Anonymous? I have a story
> to finish by Tolkien's birthday, and at this rate I'm never gonna
> make it! In any case I've pretty much said my piece on this topic,
> and am happy to go with whatever you all decide.
>
> Kathy (Inkling)
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 28 Nov 2005, at 20:20, rabidsamfan wrote:

> The function of subcategories under the major categories of time would
> be to
> help the categorizers make competition groups that are roughly equal in
> size. The more specific the description we have, the easier it is to
> nudge
> borderline cases one way or the other. Since the subcategories are not
> necessarily predetermined, the best data gives us the widest options.
>
> Say there are 100 stories set in The Great Years, and of that hundred,
> ten
> are about the trip through Moria, and eleven are about Eowyn and Eomer
> trying to deal with the deteriorating situation in Edoras. Those
> two times/places might count as subcategories of their own, while the
> four
> stories set at Weathertop and the three stories set at the Ford of
> Bruinen
> and the two stories set in Rivendell all get lumped together into a
> category
> called "Ringquest, Weathertop to Rivendell", and the scattering of
> stories
> set from Mt. Doom till the parting of Arwen and Elrond might be another
> group, even though the drabble about Legolas' visit to the Glittering
> Caves
> got shunted off with a handful of others to "Races/Cross Cultural -
> Friendship - Legolas and Gimli".
>
> Does that make sense?
>

Well, basically it makes sense. There are a few issues, though.

I definitely agree about subcategories about the journey through Moria.
Ringquest, Weather to Rivendell reads like a sub-sub-category to me,
which Ainae has said she really doesn't want. I wouldn't object to a
"The Great Years: Weathertop to Rivendell", or even one like "The Great
Years: Weathertop and Rivendell" that also involved all of those
stories and ones about the events in Rivendell.

A subcategory about the situation in Rohan is a bit tricky, too. What
would you call it, The Great Years: Rohan? But if Rohan ends up being a
graduated subcategory like it was this year, we have a problem. You
might could put stories in the Great Years about Eomer and Eowyn in one
category, and that would probably amount to the same thing.

"Cross-Cultural: Friendship: Legolas and Gimli" is certainly a
sub-sub-category. I think just "Cross-Cultural: Legolas and Gimli"
would make a fine sub-category, though. But a drabble couldn't compete
in it because drabbles have to be in their own subcategory. And in the
past we haven't moved stories to their second choice unless their first
choice wouldn't be viable. So I wouldn't want to move a story about
Legolas in Aglarond from "The Great Years" to "Cross-Cultural" just to
make a sub-category work. (The obvious exception being *required*
sub-categories like drabbles, WIPs, and poetry.)

Really, I think this is the right direction to go in. A sub-category
like Second Age: Eregion or Late Third Age: Aragorn might certainly
work well.

Marta


*****
"Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our greatest fear is
that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness
that most frightens us. [...] As we let our own light shine, we
unconsciously give other people permission to do the same."

(Nelson Mandela)

Ayuh. The phrasing isn't as important as the end result, which, hopefully,
is to have viable competition categories which are large enough to have some
competition and not so large as to be inimidating. You'd still end up
having to come up with a description of each "pile" of stories that worked
without being awkward, but by getting specifics and letting the categorizers
put smaller groups together instead of trying to have the authors define and
create the categories, you'd overcome a lot of what intimidated and confused
me this year.

The example with Eomer and Eowyn might actually be an instance where it made
sense to move the group entirely over to Races: Rohan and come up with some
other description instead of time for the rest of it. You'd still have a
bunch of similar stories, regardless.

No system is going to be perfect in advance of the data, but I think the
route were going collects some good data to be working with.

On 11/28/05, Marta Layton <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, basically it makes sense. There are a few issues, though.
>
> I definitely agree about subcategories about the journey through Moria.
> Ringquest, Weather to Rivendell reads like a sub-sub-category to me,
> which Ainae has said she really doesn't want. I wouldn't object to a
> "The Great Years: Weathertop to Rivendell", or even one like "The Great
> Years: Weathertop and Rivendell" that also involved all of those
> stories and ones about the events in Rivendell.
>
> A subcategory about the situation in Rohan is a bit tricky, too. What
> would you call it, The Great Years: Rohan? But if Rohan ends up being a
> graduated subcategory like it was this year, we have a problem. You
> might could put stories in the Great Years about Eomer and Eowyn in one
> category, and that would probably amount to the same thing.
>
> "Cross-Cultural: Friendship: Legolas and Gimli" is certainly a
> sub-sub-category. I think just "Cross-Cultural: Legolas and Gimli"
> would make a fine sub-category, though. But a drabble couldn't compete
> in it because drabbles have to be in their own subcategory. And in the
> past we haven't moved stories to their second choice unless their first
> choice wouldn't be viable. So I wouldn't want to move a story about
> Legolas in Aglarond from "The Great Years" to "Cross-Cultural" just to
> make a sub-category work. (The obvious exception being *required*
> sub-categories like drabbles, WIPs, and poetry.)
>
> Really, I think this is the right direction to go in. A sub-category
> like Second Age: Eregion or Late Third Age: Aragorn might certainly
> work well.
>
> Marta
>
>
> *****
> "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our greatest fear is
> that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness
> that most frightens us. [...] As we let our own light shine, we
> unconsciously give other people permission to do the same."
>
> (Nelson Mandela)
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Thundera,

> Once question, though (and my apologies if this has been addressed and
> I just missed it): Would "Great Years" be specific to 3018-3021 or
> would it cover the last half of the Third Age? If the former, will
> "Quest for Erebor" still be around as a category to catch stories
> about Bilbo, Smaug, and the dwarves? And where would stories about the
> Steward's familiy go (AKA younger Denethor and really young Boromir
> and Faramir)? If the latter, are we still separating out the time
> period associated with "The Hobbit" and then bumping all later events
> (for example, Merry and Pippin childhood stories) up into "Great
> Years"? Or would "The Hobbit" be included?
>

I did address this, but in an email I sent out after you emailed this.
To quote myself:

> 1. Early Third Age: Stories set in the Third Age before 2900. These
> stories should draw from the histories of the cultures of
> Middle-earth, and in most cases will not involve characters who
> feature into "The Lord of the Rings".
> 2. Late Third Age: Stories set between TA 2900 and TA 3017. Stories in
> this category may include stories based around The Hobbit or about the
> childhood of the characters of LOTR.
> 3. The Great Years: Stories set between TA 3018 and TA 3022. These
> stories should be set around events like the Quest to destroy the
> Ring, pre-war politics in Rohan and Gondor, the occupation of the
> Shire, the War of the Ring itself, and the aftermath of the Ring War
> before the Ring-bearers sailed West.

This is my latest suggestion of a division of the Third Age. We're
debating some specifics (like whether to separate out "The Hobbit",
what exactly to call #3, and where to draw the line between #1 and #2).
But I think that's the general idea. So there would be one division for
3018-3021, another aimed at "The Hobbit" and pre-Quest stories about
LOTR characters, and a third for the rest of the Third Age.

Marta

Thanks, Kathy and Marta, for the info. Oddly enough, I see that there are several emails I have yet to receive from Yahoo. Typical. The email you guys are citing seems to be one of them. I'll now go read through the stuff at the site rather than waiting for it to show up in the inbox.

Thundera


~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
As a way of life, reality is highly overrated.
DahakýHercules: The Legendary Journeys
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

-- Marta Layton <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:
I did address this, but in an email I sent out after you emailed this.
To quote myself:

> 1. Early Third Age: Stories set in the Third Age before 2900. These
> stories should draw from the histories of the cultures of
> Middle-earth, and in most cases will not involve characters who
> feature into "The Lord of the Rings".
> 2. Late Third Age: Stories set between TA 2900 and TA 3017. Stories in
> this category may include stories based around The Hobbit or about the
> childhood of the characters of LOTR.
> 3. The Great Years: Stories set between TA 3018 and TA 3022. These
> stories should be set around events like the Quest to destroy the
> Ring, pre-war politics in Rohan and Gondor, the occupation of the
> Shire, the War of the Ring itself, and the aftermath of the Ring War
> before the Ring-bearers sailed West.

This is my latest suggestion of a division of the Third Age. We're
debating some specifics (like whether to separate out "The Hobbit",
what exactly to call #3, and where to draw the line between #1 and #2).
But I think that's the general idea. So there would be one division for
3018-3021, another aimed at "The Hobbit" and pre-Quest stories about
LOTR characters, and a third for the rest of the Third Age.

Marta