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Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
1. First Age and Earlier
1st: The Manwe Award
2nd: The Ulmo Award
3rd: The Aule Award
(the three most important Valar)
*or*
1st: The Earendil Award
2nd: The Maedhros Award
3rd: The Maglor Award
(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
2. Second Age:
1st: The Númenor Award
2nd: The Eregion Award
3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
3. Early Third Age:
1st: The Elendil Award
2nd: The Isildur Award
3rd: The Éorl Award
(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
4. Late Third Age:
1st: The Fell Winter Award
2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
(three major events of this time period)
*or*
1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
3rd: The Little Legolas Award
(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
5. Great Years:
1st: The Halbarad Award
2nd: The Háma Award
3rd: The Dáin Award
(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
forgotten)
6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
1st: The Annúminas Award
2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
3rd: The Undertowers Award
(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
7. Multi-Age:
1st: The Celeborn Award
2nd: The Treebeard Award
3rd: The Durin Award
(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
and appear in more than one age)
*or*
1st: The Andúril Award
2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
3rd: The Sting Award
(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
Marta
1. First Age and Earlier
1st: The Manwe Award
2nd: The Ulmo Award
3rd: The Aule Award
(the three most important Valar)
*or*
1st: The Earendil Award
2nd: The Maedhros Award
3rd: The Maglor Award
(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
2. Second Age:
1st: The Númenor Award
2nd: The Eregion Award
3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
3. Early Third Age:
1st: The Elendil Award
2nd: The Isildur Award
3rd: The Éorl Award
(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
4. Late Third Age:
1st: The Fell Winter Award
2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
(three major events of this time period)
*or*
1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
3rd: The Little Legolas Award
(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
5. Great Years:
1st: The Halbarad Award
2nd: The Háma Award
3rd: The Dáin Award
(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
forgotten)
6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
1st: The Annúminas Award
2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
3rd: The Undertowers Award
(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
7. Multi-Age:
1st: The Celeborn Award
2nd: The Treebeard Award
3rd: The Durin Award
(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
and appear in more than one age)
*or*
1st: The Andúril Award
2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
3rd: The Sting Award
(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
Marta
All good ideas, though Maedhros and Maglor might be a bit of a
downer, given their fates.
Here's another idea for First Age:
1st: The Vanyar Award
2nd: The Noldor Award
3rd: The Teleri Award
Kathy (Inkling)
downer, given their fates.
Here's another idea for First Age:
1st: The Vanyar Award
2nd: The Noldor Award
3rd: The Teleri Award
Kathy (Inkling)
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>
> Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
>
> 1. First Age and Earlier
>
> 1st: The Manwe Award
> 2nd: The Ulmo Award
> 3rd: The Aule Award
>
> (the three most important Valar)
>
> *or*
>
> 1st: The Earendil Award
> 2nd: The Maedhros Award
> 3rd: The Maglor Award
>
> (the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
>
> 2. Second Age:
>
> 1st: The Númenor Award
> 2nd: The Eregion Award
> 3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
>
> (the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
>
> 3. Early Third Age:
>
> 1st: The Elendil Award
> 2nd: The Isildur Award
> 3rd: The Éorl Award
>
> (the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early
third
> age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
>
> 4. Late Third Age:
>
> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
> (three major events of this time period)
>
> *or*
>
> 1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
> 2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
> 3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>
> (characters that often have stories about their childhood)
>
> 5. Great Years:
>
> 1st: The Halbarad Award
> 2nd: The Háma Award
> 3rd: The Dáin Award
>
> (three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
> forgotten)
>
> 6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
>
> 1st: The Annúminas Award
> 2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
> 3rd: The Undertowers Award
>
> (three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
>
> 7. Multi-Age:
>
> 1st: The Celeborn Award
> 2nd: The Treebeard Award
> 3rd: The Durin Award
>
> (characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-
earth
> and appear in more than one age)
>
> *or*
>
> 1st: The Andúril Award
> 2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
> 3rd: The Sting Award
>
> (swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
>
> Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
>
> Marta
>
Msg# 6488
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 16, 2005 - 1:04:25 Topic ID# 6486>4. Late Third Age:1st: The Fell Winter Award
2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
For 3rd what about: The Party of Special Magnificence Award
because although we know which party you are referring to, technically Bilbo had lots of parties and you mean this specific one...
Marigold
>Here's my suggestions for Times awards names--
>
>1. First Age and Earlier
>
>1st: The Manwe Award
>2nd: The Ulmo Award
>3rd: The Aule Award
>
>(the three most important Valar)
>
>*or*
>
>1st: The Earendil Award
>2nd: The Maedhros Award
>3rd: The Maglor Award
>
>(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
>
>2. Second Age:
>
>1st: The Númenor Award
>2nd: The Eregion Award
>3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
>
>(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
>
>3. Early Third Age:
>
>1st: The Elendil Award
>2nd: The Isildur Award
>3rd: The Éorl Award
>
>(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
>age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
>
>4. Late Third Age:
>
>1st: The Fell Winter Award
>2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
>3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
>(three major events of this time period)
>
>*or*
>
>1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
>2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
>3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>
>(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
>
>5. Great Years:
>
>1st: The Halbarad Award
>2nd: The Háma Award
>3rd: The Dáin Award
>
>(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
>forgotten)
>
>6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
>
>1st: The Annúminas Award
>2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
>3rd: The Undertowers Award
>
>(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
>
>7. Multi-Age:
>
>1st: The Celeborn Award
>2nd: The Treebeard Award
>3rd: The Durin Award
>
>(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
>and appear in more than one age)
>
>*or*
>
>1st: The Andúril Award
>2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
>3rd: The Sting Award
>
>(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
>
>Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
>
>Marta
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.
>
>Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
Or, how about The Long-expected Party Award?
Kathy
Kathy
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, MarigoldCotton@a... wrote:
>
> >4. Late Third Age:
>
> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
> For 3rd what about: The Party of Special Magnificence Award
>
> because although we know which party you are referring to,
technically Bilbo had lots of parties and you mean this specific
one...
>
> Marigold
>
> >Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
> >
> >1. First Age and Earlier
> >
> >1st: The Manwe Award
> >2nd: The Ulmo Award
> >3rd: The Aule Award
> >
> >(the three most important Valar)
> >
> >*or*
> >
> >1st: The Earendil Award
> >2nd: The Maedhros Award
> >3rd: The Maglor Award
> >
> >(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
> >
> >2. Second Age:
> >
> >1st: The Númenor Award
> >2nd: The Eregion Award
> >3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
> >
> >(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
> >
> >3. Early Third Age:
> >
> >1st: The Elendil Award
> >2nd: The Isildur Award
> >3rd: The Éorl Award
> >
> >(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early
third
> >age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
> >
> >4. Late Third Age:
> >
> >1st: The Fell Winter Award
> >2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> >3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
> >
> >(three major events of this time period)
> >
> >*or*
> >
> >1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
> >2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
> >3rd: The Little Legolas Award
> >
> >(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
> >
> >5. Great Years:
> >
> >1st: The Halbarad Award
> >2nd: The Háma Award
> >3rd: The Dáin Award
> >
> >(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
> >forgotten)
> >
> >6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
> >
> >1st: The Annúminas Award
> >2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
> >3rd: The Undertowers Award
> >
> >(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
> >
> >7. Multi-Age:
> >
> >1st: The Celeborn Award
> >2nd: The Treebeard Award
> >3rd: The Durin Award
> >
> >(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-
earth
> >and appear in more than one age)
> >
> >*or*
> >
> >1st: The Andúril Award
> >2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
> >3rd: The Sting Award
> >
> >(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
> >
> >Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
> >
> >Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Marigold's Red Book
> http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
>
> Marigold's Recommendations Page
> http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
>
> Marigold's Live Journal
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
>
> Tales of The Red Book
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
>
>
>
>
> There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in
the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty
of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and
hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought
pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing
thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.
> >
> >Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
>
Msg# 6490
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 16, 2005 - 1:20:01 Topic ID# 6486>Or, how about The Long-expected Party Award?I like that too : )
>
>Kathy
Marigold
>--
>--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, MarigoldCotton@a... wrote:
>>
>> >4. Late Third Age:
>>
>> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
>> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
>> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>>
>> For 3rd what about: The Party of Special Magnificence Award
>>
>> because although we know which party you are referring to,
>technically Bilbo had lots of parties and you mean this specific
>one...
>>
>> Marigold
>>
>> >Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
>> >
>> >1. First Age and Earlier
>> >
>> >1st: The Manwe Award
>> >2nd: The Ulmo Award
>> >3rd: The Aule Award
>> >
>> >(the three most important Valar)
>> >
>> >*or*
>> >
>> >1st: The Earendil Award
>> >2nd: The Maedhros Award
>> >3rd: The Maglor Award
>> >
>> >(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
>> >
>> >2. Second Age:
>> >
>> >1st: The Númenor Award
>> >2nd: The Eregion Award
>> >3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
>> >
>> >(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
>> >
>> >3. Early Third Age:
>> >
>> >1st: The Elendil Award
>> >2nd: The Isildur Award
>> >3rd: The Éorl Award
>> >
>> >(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early
>third
>> >age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
>> >
>> >4. Late Third Age:
>> >
>> >1st: The Fell Winter Award
>> >2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
>> >3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>> >
>> >(three major events of this time period)
>> >
>> >*or*
>> >
>> >1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
>> >2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
>> >3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>> >
>> >(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
>> >
>> >5. Great Years:
>> >
>> >1st: The Halbarad Award
>> >2nd: The Háma Award
>> >3rd: The Dáin Award
>> >
>> >(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
>> >forgotten)
>> >
>> >6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
>> >
>> >1st: The Annúminas Award
>> >2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
>> >3rd: The Undertowers Award
>> >
>> >(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
>> >
>> >7. Multi-Age:
>> >
>> >1st: The Celeborn Award
>> >2nd: The Treebeard Award
>> >3rd: The Durin Award
>> >
>> >(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-
>earth
>> >and appear in more than one age)
>> >
>> >*or*
>> >
>> >1st: The Andúril Award
>> >2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
>> >3rd: The Sting Award
>> >
>> >(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
>> >
>> >Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
>> >
>> >Marta
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Marigold's Red Book
>> http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
>>
>> Marigold's Recommendations Page
>> http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
>>
>> Marigold's Live Journal
>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
>>
>> Tales of The Red Book
>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in
>the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty
>of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and
>hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought
>pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing
>thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.
>> >
>> >Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.
>
>Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
Msg# 6491
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by rhapsody\_the\_bard December 16, 2005 - 1:34:34 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
elves on Beleriand during the first age. The Noldolante that he
composed is the full embodiment of that. So I actually rather see him
at the nr one spot (that shouldn't surprise anyone ;) ). I think it
would be nice to see Maglor on nr one, the Hurin award (the edain
during the First Age) on nr 2 and Earendil or Tuor award (mixed ftes,
from men becoming an elf) on nr 3.
out what happened to the race of men during the first age. The tale of
Hurin... Turin Turambar are important pieces/events during the first
age as well.
The rest looks fine Marta :)
Rhapsody
>Maglor is the living testimony of what happened to the Noldor and
> All good ideas, though Maedhros and Maglor might be a bit of a
> downer, given their fates.
elves on Beleriand during the first age. The Noldolante that he
composed is the full embodiment of that. So I actually rather see him
at the nr one spot (that shouldn't surprise anyone ;) ). I think it
would be nice to see Maglor on nr one, the Hurin award (the edain
during the First Age) on nr 2 and Earendil or Tuor award (mixed ftes,
from men becoming an elf) on nr 3.
> Here's another idea for First Age:Too focussed on the Elves (although I love them a lot), but it shuts
>
> 1st: The Vanyar Award
> 2nd: The Noldor Award
> 3rd: The Teleri Award
out what happened to the race of men during the first age. The tale of
Hurin... Turin Turambar are important pieces/events during the first
age as well.
The rest looks fine Marta :)
Rhapsody
Hi Marta
Thanks for starting us off with a list of suggestions - always a
difficult task. I think there are some great ideas here. But (being
me) I'm going to put my canon-geek hat on and quibble with some of
them. I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't use your suggestions,
just that we should maybe be aware of the canonical issues involved. :-D
I've snipped a couple of awards where I have no comments.
To quote the Valaquenta: "Among them Nine were of chief power and
reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the
Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and
Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë."
It's hard to pick just three from eight, but I would suggest having
Yavanna in there, since she created the Trees.
and seems to me to be very strongly influenced by the Valar (whereas
they step back from events much more at the end of the First Age). So
I'd rather go for the first suggestion, with the Valar, here.
While I can see from our definition of Early Third Age that the
foundation of Rohan falls into this timeframe, it's some 2500 years
later than the other two and that just seems "odd" to me.(I guess I
don't divide the Third Age up that way in my mind.)
Also, technically speaking, Arnor and Gondor were founded in the
Second Age. And poor Anarion (who co-founded Gondor) doesn't get a
look in here.... ;-)
And this also seems very Man-centric to me.
I'm struggling to think of an alternative, but maybe something like
1. The Valandil and Meneldil Awards (Isildur and Anarion's sons and
the first two kings of Arnor and Gondor who ruled wholly in the Third Age)
2. The Thráin I award (first King Under the Mountain)
3. The Eorl Award (first King of Rohan) (and btw, Eorl does not have
an accent over it... confusing, I know.)
I know that leaves the Elves out, but there weren't any Elven realms
founded in this period. And this gives a slightly better spread of
events throughout the early Third age.
(Oh, and you may want a different order.)
Anyway, feel free to rubbish my suggestions!
made. But all these seem a little Hobbit-centred. (And I initially
thought the Fell Winter = the Long Winter, when Helm died - which is
my bad!)
Legolas stories would be pre 2850. (I know we don't know exactly how
old he is, but his comment in Fangorn suggests he personally doesn't
see 500 years as a very long time, while he calls both Gimli, who is
around 140, and Aragorn who is nearly 90, "children"!)
Could we maybe go with the something along the lines of the first
suggestion, but find a better mix of other events instead of the Fell
Winter? Some suggestions, which I admit might be a bit obscure for
most people, are:
* The Battle of Poros Award (involved both Gondor and Rohan and saw
the death of the King of Rohan's twin sons - 2885)
* The Henneth Annun award (it was built 2901)
* The Battle of the Five Armies Award (which overlaps the Quest of
Erebor, of course, but maybe suggests a wider racial spread)
* The Mount Doom Awakes Award (er, maybe not the best name! 2954)
other two.
* The Tom Bombadil Award (As Elrond says: "But I had forgotten
Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and
hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not
then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless.
But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by
the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside.")
* The Glorfindel Award (assuming you buy into the re-embodiment theory)
sword names, although I think these are good too.
Cheers, Liz
Thanks for starting us off with a list of suggestions - always a
difficult task. I think there are some great ideas here. But (being
me) I'm going to put my canon-geek hat on and quibble with some of
them. I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't use your suggestions,
just that we should maybe be aware of the canonical issues involved. :-D
I've snipped a couple of awards where I have no comments.
> 1. First Age and EarlierUh, the three most important "male" Valar.... Why no "female" Valar? ;-)
>
> 1st: The Manwe Award
> 2nd: The Ulmo Award
> 3rd: The Aule Award
>
> (the three most important Valar)
To quote the Valaquenta: "Among them Nine were of chief power and
reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the
Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and
Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë."
It's hard to pick just three from eight, but I would suggest having
Yavanna in there, since she created the Trees.
> *or*IMHO, the First Age and Earlier is about more than just the Silmarils,
>
> 1st: The Earendil Award
> 2nd: The Maedhros Award
> 3rd: The Maglor Award
>
> (the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
and seems to me to be very strongly influenced by the Valar (whereas
they step back from events much more at the end of the First Age). So
I'd rather go for the first suggestion, with the Valar, here.
> 3. Early Third Age:A few issues here. ;-)
>
> 1st: The Elendil Award
> 2nd: The Isildur Award
> 3rd: The Éorl Award
>
> (the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
> age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
While I can see from our definition of Early Third Age that the
foundation of Rohan falls into this timeframe, it's some 2500 years
later than the other two and that just seems "odd" to me.(I guess I
don't divide the Third Age up that way in my mind.)
Also, technically speaking, Arnor and Gondor were founded in the
Second Age. And poor Anarion (who co-founded Gondor) doesn't get a
look in here.... ;-)
And this also seems very Man-centric to me.
I'm struggling to think of an alternative, but maybe something like
1. The Valandil and Meneldil Awards (Isildur and Anarion's sons and
the first two kings of Arnor and Gondor who ruled wholly in the Third Age)
2. The Thráin I award (first King Under the Mountain)
3. The Eorl Award (first King of Rohan) (and btw, Eorl does not have
an accent over it... confusing, I know.)
I know that leaves the Elves out, but there weren't any Elven realms
founded in this period. And this gives a slightly better spread of
events throughout the early Third age.
(Oh, and you may want a different order.)
Anyway, feel free to rubbish my suggestions!
> 4. Late Third Age:I like the suggestion of renaming the Bilbo's Party Award that's been
>
> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
> (three major events of this time period)
made. But all these seem a little Hobbit-centred. (And I initially
thought the Fell Winter = the Long Winter, when Helm died - which is
my bad!)
> *or*And this seems not Hobbity enough to me! Besides, I would think Little
>
> 1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
> 2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
> 3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>
> (characters that often have stories about their childhood)
Legolas stories would be pre 2850. (I know we don't know exactly how
old he is, but his comment in Fangorn suggests he personally doesn't
see 500 years as a very long time, while he calls both Gimli, who is
around 140, and Aragorn who is nearly 90, "children"!)
Could we maybe go with the something along the lines of the first
suggestion, but find a better mix of other events instead of the Fell
Winter? Some suggestions, which I admit might be a bit obscure for
most people, are:
* The Battle of Poros Award (involved both Gondor and Rohan and saw
the death of the King of Rohan's twin sons - 2885)
* The Henneth Annun award (it was built 2901)
* The Battle of the Five Armies Award (which overlaps the Quest of
Erebor, of course, but maybe suggests a wider racial spread)
* The Mount Doom Awakes Award (er, maybe not the best name! 2954)
> 6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:I'd prefer Emyn Arnen as it's more "specific" and in line with the
>
> 1st: The Annúminas Award
> 2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
> 3rd: The Undertowers Award
>
> (three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
other two.
> 7. Multi-Age:A couple of other suggestions:
>
> 1st: The Celeborn Award
> 2nd: The Treebeard Award
> 3rd: The Durin Award
>
> (characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
> and appear in more than one age)
* The Tom Bombadil Award (As Elrond says: "But I had forgotten
Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and
hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not
then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless.
But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by
the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside.")
* The Glorfindel Award (assuming you buy into the re-embodiment theory)
> *or*I slightly prefer the "multi-age character" names rather than the
>
> 1st: The Andúril Award
> 2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
> 3rd: The Sting Award
>
> (swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
sword names, although I think these are good too.
> Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!HTH
Cheers, Liz
Msg# 6493
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by aelfwina@cableone.net December 16, 2005 - 11:26:00 Topic ID# 6486----- Original Message -----
From: "Marta Layton" <melayton@gmail.com>
To: <MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:10 AM
Subject: [MEFAwards] 'Times' awards names
Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
1. First Age and Earlier
1st: The Manwe Award
2nd: The Ulmo Award
3rd: The Aule Award
(the three most important Valar)
*or*
1st: The Earendil Award
2nd: The Maedhros Award
3rd: The Maglor Award
(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
::Either of those sounds okay to me.
2. Second Age:
1st: The Númenor Award
2nd: The Eregion Award
3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
::I really like these for the Second Age
3. Early Third Age:
1st: The Elendil Award
2nd: The Isildur Award
3rd: The Éorl Award
(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
::And I think the suggestion for Early Third Age is perfect.
4. Late Third Age:
1st: The Fell Winter Award
2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
(three major events of this time period)
::I agree with a couple of others that
"3rd The Long-Expected Party Award"
would be better
1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
3rd: The Little Legolas Award
(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
::I really don't care for those; there are just as many stories about Young
Frodo, Little Sam and Merry and Wee Pippin, and there also seem to be a lot
of stories about Little Estel. And Legolas' childhood would not have been
taking place then, anyway, would it? He was most certainly at *least* born
in the Early Third Age if not earlier. Otherwise, what about all his remarks
about feeling young in Fangorn?
5. Great Years:
1st: The Halbarad Award
2nd: The Háma Award
3rd: The Dáin Award
(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
forgotten)
::Or how about defining events of the Great Years:
Going in chronological order (which is what you seem to be doing) how about:
1st The Council of Elrond Award
2nd The Sammath Naur Award (or The Cracks of Doom award or The Destruction
of the Ring Award)
3rd The Grey Havens Award
6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
1st: The Annúminas Award
2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
3rd: The Undertowers Award
(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
::I think I like these very much. I could go for them--(I think I like
Ithilien better than Emyn Arnen, but could go with either.)
7. Multi-Age:
1st: The Celeborn Award
2nd: The Treebeard Award
3rd: The Durin Award
(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
and appear in more than one age)
*or*
1st: The Andúril Award
2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
3rd: The Sting Award
(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
::I like both of these lists, though I think I like the second one better.
Dreamflower
(Barbara)
Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
Marta
Yahoo! Groups Links
Msg# 6494
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 16, 2005 - 13:36:30 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
That would nicely fit the theme of "Time", and also get in the three
major different ways of calculating time by different sources of light
in the First Age and earlier.
(Plus, I have a feeling these may make for far easier visuals--no
purple Ulmo, for example, and most people can probably find images of
lamps, trees, suns, and moons that could be made into nice banners.)
<snip>
into being in the Second Age.
How about:
1. The Thrones of Osgiliath Award
2. The Founding of the Shire Award
3. The Delving of Erebor Award
Two regions newly founded in the (relatively) early Third Age, plus
the acknowledgment that in Osgiliath, both Isildur and Anarion ruled
as joint-kings.
Or one could use the Eorl and swap out the Osgiliath award for
something like "The Raising of Meduseld", and switch the order around
if desired. Then there would still be three political entities founded
in the early third age.
in some form. Am not sure about the other two, although I like the
idea of a "Long Expected Party" award.
portrayed for us to choose three without being arbitrary about it. I'd
rather events or some artifacts that are significant be used.
FOTR, TTT, ROTK. Lots of options for banners, and it just makes sense
if we're thinking of thigns that cover these years.
the tower theme.
is at least instantly recognizable thanks to the hat and boots.
Dwim
>How about:
> Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
>
> 1. First Age and Earlier
>
> 1st: The Manwe Award
> 2nd: The Ulmo Award
> 3rd: The Aule Award
>
> (the three most important Valar)
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
That would nicely fit the theme of "Time", and also get in the three
major different ways of calculating time by different sources of light
in the First Age and earlier.
(Plus, I have a feeling these may make for far easier visuals--no
purple Ulmo, for example, and most people can probably find images of
lamps, trees, suns, and moons that could be made into nice banners.)
<snip>
>Like these very much.
> 2. Second Age:
>
> 1st: The Númenor Award
> 2nd: The Eregion Award
> 3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
>
> (the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
> 3. Early Third Age:Liz has pointed out that Anarion is absent, plus Arnor and Gondor came
>
> 1st: The Elendil Award
> 2nd: The Isildur Award
> 3rd: The Éorl Award
into being in the Second Age.
How about:
1. The Thrones of Osgiliath Award
2. The Founding of the Shire Award
3. The Delving of Erebor Award
Two regions newly founded in the (relatively) early Third Age, plus
the acknowledgment that in Osgiliath, both Isildur and Anarion ruled
as joint-kings.
Or one could use the Eorl and swap out the Osgiliath award for
something like "The Raising of Meduseld", and switch the order around
if desired. Then there would still be three political entities founded
in the early third age.
> 4. Late Third Age:I definitely think The Quest for Erebor needs to be represented here
>
> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
> (three major events of this time period)
in some form. Am not sure about the other two, although I like the
idea of a "Long Expected Party" award.
> *or*There are, I think, far too many characters whose childhoods are
>
> 1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
> 2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
> 3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>
> (characters that often have stories about their childhood)
portrayed for us to choose three without being arbitrary about it. I'd
rather events or some artifacts that are significant be used.
> 5. Great Years:At the risk of confusing matters, why not use the book titles here?
>
> 1st: The Halbarad Award
> 2nd: The Háma Award
> 3rd: The Dáin Award
>
> (three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
> forgotten)
FOTR, TTT, ROTK. Lots of options for banners, and it just makes sense
if we're thinking of thigns that cover these years.
>Like the Emyn Arnen Award better than the Ithilien award. Keeps with
> 6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
>
> 1st: The Annúminas Award
> 2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
> 3rd: The Undertowers Award
the tower theme.
> (three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)I like Liz's idea of the Tom Bombadil award put in here somewhere. He
>
> 7. Multi-Age:
>
> 1st: The Celeborn Award
> 2nd: The Treebeard Award
> 3rd: The Durin Award
>
> (characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
> and appear in more than one age)
is at least instantly recognizable thanks to the hat and boots.
Dwim
Msg# 6495
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by MarigoldCotton@aol.com December 17, 2005 - 0:56:46 Topic ID# 6486Dwim said:
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
I like these very much, and think that they would also inspire some lovely icons!
Marigold
--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
I like these very much, and think that they would also inspire some lovely icons!
Marigold
--
Marigold's Red Book
http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
Marigold's Recommendations Page
http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
Marigold's Live Journal
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
Tales of The Red Book
http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.
>
>Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
> Dwim said:Marigold wrote:
>
> 1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
> 2. The Light of the Trees Award
> 3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
> I like these very much, and think that they would also inspire somelovely icons!
Seconded! I think this is a really good suggestion!
Liz
Dwim wrote:
Founding of the Shire Award" and "The Delving of Erebor Award".
They're three events that really did take place in that period, and it
gets over the awkwardness of the fact the Realms in Exile were founded
in the Second Age.
is that someone could end up with a RotK Award for a story set during
FotR, which would be a bit odd. But probably no odder than, say,
getting The Háma Award for a story about The Scouring of the Shire....
Cheers, Liz
> 1. The Thrones of Osgiliath AwardI really like the combination of "The Raising of Meduseld Award", "The
> 2. The Founding of the Shire Award
> 3. The Delving of Erebor Award
>
> Two regions newly founded in the (relatively) early Third Age, plus
> the acknowledgment that in Osgiliath, both Isildur and Anarion ruled
> as joint-kings.
>
> Or one could use the Eorl and swap out the Osgiliath award for
> something like "The Raising of Meduseld", and switch the order around
> if desired. Then there would still be three political entities founded
> in the early third age.
Founding of the Shire Award" and "The Delving of Erebor Award".
They're three events that really did take place in that period, and it
gets over the awkwardness of the fact the Realms in Exile were founded
in the Second Age.
> > 5. Great Years:I agree that this makes things simpler. The only slight drawback I see
> >
> > 1st: The Halbarad Award
> > 2nd: The Háma Award
> > 3rd: The Dáin Award
> >
> > (three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
> > forgotten)
>
> At the risk of confusing matters, why not use the book titles here?
> FOTR, TTT, ROTK. Lots of options for banners, and it just makes sense
> if we're thinking of thigns that cover these years.
is that someone could end up with a RotK Award for a story set during
FotR, which would be a bit odd. But probably no odder than, say,
getting The Háma Award for a story about The Scouring of the Shire....
Cheers, Liz
Msg# 6498
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 17, 2005 - 9:20:10 Topic ID# 6486> >sense
> > At the risk of confusing matters, why not use the book titles here?
> > FOTR, TTT, ROTK. Lots of options for banners, and it just makes
> > if we're thinking of thigns that cover these years.see
>
> I agree that this makes things simpler. The only slight drawback I
> is that someone could end up with a RotK Award for a story set duringShire....
> FotR, which would be a bit odd. But probably no odder than, say,
> getting The Háma Award for a story about The Scouring of the
Exactly. We had some odd ones this year, too, I think. Hazard of the
awards naming enterprise, I think.
Of course, we also had some awards that were frighteningly accurate,
like Adraefan winning the "Boromir Lives!" AU award...
Dwim
Msg# 6499
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 17, 2005 - 11:42:27 Topic ID# 6486> > 4. Late Third Age:Had a thought just now about this set of awards, even though it
> >
> > 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> > 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> > 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
> >
> > (three major events of this time period)
doesn't include the Quest for Erebor. What if the awards for the Late
Third Age were:
1. The Ruling Ring Award
2. The Three Rings Award
3. The Nine Rings Award
Reasoning: the surviving Rings are what will shape the defining (and
closing) event of the Third Age--the Ring War and the departure of
the Ring-bearers; the Late Third Age is the period when the various
factions begin to move towards that war.
Dwim
Msg# 6500
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Marta Layton December 17, 2005 - 12:11:23 Topic ID# 6486Hey Kathy,
and it may be something we could consider when looking at names for the
Races awardsd. But, in this case, I think it would be better if the
award names could encompass the actions of Men, Dwarves and Valar in
this period as well. Personally, I like Dwim's suggestions of the three
types of light in this time period.
Thanks for your input, though. All of these ideas spur my mind in
different directions, so I can see what might work well.
Cheers,
Marta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Message: 4This is a good suggestion if we want to identify the groups of Elves -
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:56:09 -0000
> From: "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> All good ideas, though Maedhros and Maglor might be a bit of a
> downer, given their fates.
>
> Here's another idea for First Age:
>
> 1st: The Vanyar Award
> 2nd: The Noldor Award
> 3rd: The Teleri Award
>
> Kathy (Inkling)
>
and it may be something we could consider when looking at names for the
Races awardsd. But, in this case, I think it would be better if the
award names could encompass the actions of Men, Dwarves and Valar in
this period as well. Personally, I like Dwim's suggestions of the three
types of light in this time period.
Thanks for your input, though. All of these ideas spur my mind in
different directions, so I can see what might work well.
Cheers,
Marta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Msg# 6501
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Marta Layton December 17, 2005 - 12:18:41 Topic ID# 6486> Message: 5Good point. I think I'm going to go with "The Long-Expected Party
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 02:02:05 -0500
> From: MarigoldCotton@aol.com
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
>> 4. Late Third Age:
>
> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
> For 3rd what about: The Party of Special Magnificence Award
>
> because although we know which party you are referring to, technically
> Bilbo had lots of parties and you mean this specific one...
>
Award" because it's the name of the chapter and I think it would be
more identifiable to people who may not be that familiar with the text
of that chapter. But definitely, "Bilbo's Party" is vague. ;-)
Marta
Msg# 6502
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Marta Layton December 17, 2005 - 12:31:51 Topic ID# 6486> Message: 8Well, Maglor is certainly a good spokesperson for the Noldor. You could
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 07:33:54 -0000
> From: "rhapsody_the_bard" <rhapsody74@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
>>
>> All good ideas, though Maedhros and Maglor might be a bit of a
>> downer, given their fates.
>
> Maglor is the living testimony of what happened to the Noldor and
> elves on Beleriand during the first age. The Noldolante that he
> composed is the full embodiment of that. So I actually rather see him
> at the nr one spot (that shouldn't surprise anyone ;) ). I think it
> would be nice to see Maglor on nr one, the Hurin award (the edain
> during the First Age) on nr 2 and Earendil or Tuor award (mixed ftes,
> from men becoming an elf) on nr 3.
>
>
argue that someone from the Sindar side of things also deserves a spot
on the list, such as Thingol.
And therein lies the problem. If we try to pick three people to
represent such a diverse age, someone's going to be left out. Then
ranking thm is also a problem. I think if we go with major events we
have a better chance of being more inclusive to all the stories likely
to be portrayed. Not necessarily the three most important, but a unique
set of three events that form a neat little set so there isn't a fourth
event that's getting left out. That's part of why I like Dwim's
suggestion of the three lights so appealing. Will that work for you?
Cheers,
Marta
Msg# 6503
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by rhapsody\_the\_bard December 17, 2005 - 16:53:52 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <liz.warren@b...> wrote:
1st: The Eru Iluvatar Award
2nd: The Manwe Award
3rd: The Varda Award
Varda, the most important Valier, equal to Manwe.
I am doubting a bit on the Lamps of Valar and so on, because those are
all events that took place *before* the start of the first Age. Sure
they can make pretty banners (but these things are easily
underestimated when you haven't hunted for banner images), but it
kinda rules out First Age things... And it is for the category First
Age and earlier. It would make more sense if there was an important
event from the First Age in there as well...
I would take out the Lamps of the Valar award (or another one) and
replace it with well, maybe the Noldolante award or The War of Wrath
award (although the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Battle of Unnumbered Tears,
the last of the great battles between the Eldar and Morgoth) would be
a good replacement as well since that was a complete tragedy)...
Rhapsody
>I think it all depends on opinion....
> Hi Marta
>
> Thanks for starting us off with a list of suggestions - always a
> difficult task. I think there are some great ideas here. But (being
> me) I'm going to put my canon-geek hat on and quibble with some of
> them. I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't use your suggestions,
> just that we should maybe be aware of the canonical issues involved. :-D
>
> I've snipped a couple of awards where I have no comments.
>
> > 1. First Age and Earlier
> >
> > 1st: The Manwe Award
> > 2nd: The Ulmo Award
> > 3rd: The Aule Award
> >
> > (the three most important Valar)
>
> Uh, the three most important "male" Valar.... Why no "female" Valar?
> ;-)
1st: The Eru Iluvatar Award
2nd: The Manwe Award
3rd: The Varda Award
Varda, the most important Valier, equal to Manwe.
I am doubting a bit on the Lamps of Valar and so on, because those are
all events that took place *before* the start of the first Age. Sure
they can make pretty banners (but these things are easily
underestimated when you haven't hunted for banner images), but it
kinda rules out First Age things... And it is for the category First
Age and earlier. It would make more sense if there was an important
event from the First Age in there as well...
I would take out the Lamps of the Valar award (or another one) and
replace it with well, maybe the Noldolante award or The War of Wrath
award (although the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Battle of Unnumbered Tears,
the last of the great battles between the Eldar and Morgoth) would be
a good replacement as well since that was a complete tragedy)...
Rhapsody
Msg# 6504
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by rhapsody\_the\_bard December 17, 2005 - 16:55:59 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
First age even started... ah well, see my reasoning in the other post.
For me, I like the idea, but it doesn't cover the category fully.
Rhapsody
> That's part of why I like Dwim's suggestion of the three lights soNo not really to be honest. All are things that took place before the
> appealing. Will that work for you?
First age even started... ah well, see my reasoning in the other post.
For me, I like the idea, but it doesn't cover the category fully.
Rhapsody
Hi Rhapsody
covers the whole category perfectly.
The point is that each of the forms of light illuminates one of the
three major divisions of time within "First Age or Earlier".
* The Lamps of the Valar illuminated Arda before there was time
* The Light of the Trees illuminated Valinor during the Years of the Trees
* The Sun and Moon rose at the start of the First Age and illuminated
the First Age.
But perhaps it might be more consistent to simply have "The Sun and
Moon Award" rather than "The Rising of...."?
HTH
Cheers, Liz
> I am doubting a bit on the Lamps of Valar and so on, because those areI hope you don't mind me disagreeing, but I think Dwim's suggestion
> all events that took place *before* the start of the first Age. Sure
> they can make pretty banners (but these things are easily
> underestimated when you haven't hunted for banner images), but it
> kinda rules out First Age things... And it is for the category First
> Age and earlier. It would make more sense if there was an important
> event from the First Age in there as well...
covers the whole category perfectly.
The point is that each of the forms of light illuminates one of the
three major divisions of time within "First Age or Earlier".
* The Lamps of the Valar illuminated Arda before there was time
* The Light of the Trees illuminated Valinor during the Years of the Trees
* The Sun and Moon rose at the start of the First Age and illuminated
the First Age.
But perhaps it might be more consistent to simply have "The Sun and
Moon Award" rather than "The Rising of...."?
HTH
Cheers, Liz
Msg# 6506
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by rhapsody\_the\_bard December 18, 2005 - 8:47:29 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Liz" <liz.warren@b...> wrote:
Therefore not fitting. It fits more the Multi-age category. As a First
Age writer I just don't see the logic of this proposal. If you do want
to work with the theme of light why don't you say The Silmarilli
(anglicized=Silmarils) Award, those are also important items that are
hallowed by light, wanted by basically everyone (including the Valar)
and involved the fate of *every* race and event during the First Age.
Even more that order makes more sense: Lamps of the Valar=thrown down,
so the trees were created, the trees were slewn, but the Silmarils
still carried on their light, so even the order makes more sense this
way. The Sun and the Moon are Maiar, not objects like the Lamps, The
two trees and the Silmarilli.
I hope I make sense.
Rhapsody
>No of course not, we can always agree to disagree. I am still disagreeing.
> Hi Rhapsody
>
>> I am doubting a bit on the Lamps of Valar and so on, because those
>> are all events that took place *before* the start of the first Age.
>> Sure they can make pretty banners (but these things are easily
>> underestimated when you haven't hunted for banner images), but it
>> kinda rules out First Age things... And it is for the category
>> First Age and earlier. It would make more sense if there was an
>> important event from the First Age in there as well...
>
> I hope you don't mind me disagreeing, but I think Dwim's suggestion
> covers the whole category perfectly.
> The point is that each of the forms of light illuminates one of theAnd the Second Age and the Third Age and the Fourth Age and the...
> three major divisions of time within "First Age or Earlier".
>
> * The Lamps of the Valar illuminated Arda before there was time
> * The Light of the Trees illuminated Valinor during the Years of the
> Trees
> * The Sun and Moon rose at the start of the First Age and
> illuminated
> the First Age.
Therefore not fitting. It fits more the Multi-age category. As a First
Age writer I just don't see the logic of this proposal. If you do want
to work with the theme of light why don't you say The Silmarilli
(anglicized=Silmarils) Award, those are also important items that are
hallowed by light, wanted by basically everyone (including the Valar)
and involved the fate of *every* race and event during the First Age.
Even more that order makes more sense: Lamps of the Valar=thrown down,
so the trees were created, the trees were slewn, but the Silmarils
still carried on their light, so even the order makes more sense this
way. The Sun and the Moon are Maiar, not objects like the Lamps, The
two trees and the Silmarilli.
I hope I make sense.
Rhapsody
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "rhapsody_the_bard"
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Silmarilli Award
Yes, that last would make sense in that at the end of the First Age
all the Silmarilli became inaccessible, if not actually destroyed.
While, as you point out, the Sun and the Moon continue on into future
Ages.
Kathy (Inkling)
> rhapsody74@g...So you're saying the awards would be:
> wrote:
> If you do want to work with the theme of light why don't you say
> The Silmarilli (anglicized=Silmarils) Award, those are also
> important items that are hallowed by light, wanted by basically
> everyone (including the Valar)and involved the fate of *every* race
> and event during the First Age.
>
> Even more that order makes more sense: Lamps of the Valar=thrown
> down, so the trees were created, the trees were slewn, but the
> Silmarils still carried on their light, so even the order makes
> more sense this way. The Sun and the Moon are Maiar, not objects
> like the Lamps, The two trees and the Silmarilli.
>
> I hope I make sense.
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Silmarilli Award
Yes, that last would make sense in that at the end of the First Age
all the Silmarilli became inaccessible, if not actually destroyed.
While, as you point out, the Sun and the Moon continue on into future
Ages.
Kathy (Inkling)
Msg# 6508
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Elena Tiriel December 18, 2005 - 17:22:52 Topic ID# 6486Hi Marigold!
Just a thought, "Bilbo's Farewell Party" might also work... it's refered to
as his "farewell feast" in the Tale of Years....
- Barbara
Just a thought, "Bilbo's Farewell Party" might also work... it's refered to
as his "farewell feast" in the Tale of Years....
- Barbara
On 12/15/05, MarigoldCotton@aol.com <MarigoldCotton@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >4. Late Third Age:
>
> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>
> For 3rd what about: The Party of Special Magnificence Award
>
> because although we know which party you are referring to, technically
> Bilbo had lots of parties and you mean this specific one...
>
> Marigold
>
> >Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
> >
> >1. First Age and Earlier
> >
> >1st: The Manwe Award
> >2nd: The Ulmo Award
> >3rd: The Aule Award
> >
> >(the three most important Valar)
> >
> >*or*
> >
> >1st: The Earendil Award
> >2nd: The Maedhros Award
> >3rd: The Maglor Award
> >
> >(the 'owners' of the silmarils at the end of the first age)
> >
> >2. Second Age:
> >
> >1st: The Númenor Award
> >2nd: The Eregion Award
> >3rd: The Khazad-dûm Award
> >
> >(the three regions that seem to see the most Second Age stories)
> >
> >3. Early Third Age:
> >
> >1st: The Elendil Award
> >2nd: The Isildur Award
> >3rd: The Éorl Award
> >
> >(the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
> >age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
> >
> >4. Late Third Age:
> >
> >1st: The Fell Winter Award
> >2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> >3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
> >
> >(three major events of this time period)
> >
> >*or*
> >
> >1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
> >2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
> >3rd: The Little Legolas Award
> >
> >(characters that often have stories about their childhood)
> >
> >5. Great Years:
> >
> >1st: The Halbarad Award
> >2nd: The Háma Award
> >3rd: The Dáin Award
> >
> >(three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
> >forgotten)
> >
> >6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:
> >
> >1st: The Annúminas Award
> >2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
> >3rd: The Undertowers Award
> >
> >(three places built or re-built in the Fourth Age)
> >
> >7. Multi-Age:
> >
> >1st: The Celeborn Award
> >2nd: The Treebeard Award
> >3rd: The Durin Award
> >
> >(characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
> >and appear in more than one age)
> >
> >*or*
> >
> >1st: The Andúril Award
> >2nd: The Orcrist and Glamdring Award
> >3rd: The Sting Award
> >
> >(swords in the Ring War from earlier ages)
> >
> >Feel free to suggest your own, or changes to these!
> >
> >Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Marigold's Red Book
> http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
>
> Marigold's Recommendations Page
> http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
>
> Marigold's Live Journal
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
>
> Tales of The Red Book
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
>
>
>
>
> There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the
> mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote
> his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to
> him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the
> end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high
> beauty forever beyond its reach.
> >
> >Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Msg# 6509
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Elena Tiriel December 18, 2005 - 17:44:56 Topic ID# 6486I second that! (or maybe third it -- sorry I'm coming to this discussion so
late, and haven't finished reading all the posts....)
Though I would make a very minor suggestion: The Light of the *Two* Trees
Award....
- Barbara
late, and haven't finished reading all the posts....)
Though I would make a very minor suggestion: The Light of the *Two* Trees
Award....
- Barbara
On 12/16/05, MarigoldCotton@aol.com <MarigoldCotton@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Dwim said:
>
> 1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
> 2. The Light of the Trees Award
> 3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
>
> I like these very much, and think that they would also inspire some lovely
> icons!
>
> Marigold
>
> --
> Marigold's Red Book
> http://marigold.tolkienshire.com
>
> Marigold's Recommendations Page
> http://www.geocities.com/marigoldsrecommendations/
>
> Marigold's Live Journal
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/marigoldg/
>
> Tales of The Red Book
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/talesofredbook/
>
>
>
>
> There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the
> mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote
> his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to
> him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the
> end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high
> beauty forever beyond its reach.
> >
> >Sam, in Mordor, RoTK
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Msg# 6510
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 18, 2005 - 20:36:07 Topic ID# 6486> Yes, that last would make sense in that at the end of the First AgeWell, but thanks to Earendil, the light of at least one Silmaril
> all the Silmarilli became inaccessible, if not actually destroyed.
> While, as you point out, the Sun and the Moon continue on into future
> Ages.
shines on into the Third Age as the morning and evening star, so it is
accessible in the same way that the sun and moon are accessible. So
there's no differentiation, fundamentally, between the light of the
Sun and Moon continuing into other ages and the light of the Silmaril
continuing into other Ages.
I suggested the Sun and Moon because they replace the light of the
Trees, just as the Trees replace the light of the lamps. The Silmarils
never enter into that order, conceived in that manner, and in any case
are just the same kind of light as the two Trees, not a different kind
of light. The succession does make sense if thought of in this way. I
suggested the first *rising* of the Sun and Moon because that is an
event that is unique to the First Age, or at least is no more
problematic than picking an ending event of any age.
I suppose I'm just not clear why it's a huge objection to say there's
two different forms of being being combined in one awards set if we
use Lamps, Trees, and Sun and Moon. The resons for their being put
together in a determinate series seem a lot more obvious to me than
the objection to putting them together, so perhaps someone can
enlighten me as to why it matters that we're dealing with Maiar in one
case and 'objective' light in the two other cases.
Dwim
Msg# 6513
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by rhapsody\_the\_bard December 19, 2005 - 0:45:44 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:
and I don't see *anything* that appeals to me as an author or that I
can identify with. I am trying to explain that, giving suggestions,
but it doesn't come across at all so I just simply am going to shut up
now. For me, it simply doesn't appeal and I don't go like: wow that is
a real nice sounding name or wow yeah that makes sense (it really
doesn't, but I am failing utterly here). Is it so strange to think
that you can't compare objects to Maiar?? Apples and pears, that is
how it reasons to me. Sun and Moon: all ages. Earendil? He & the
remaining one only *might* play a role during the final battle at the
end of Arda (if that prophecy was intended by Tolkien), but the Sons
of Feanor gave that one up for the sake of all (they still went after
the other two). Just never mind, really.
All I am saying, whatever is decided as of now on, I am not going to
comment on it anymore or explaining it or giving alternatives.
Rhapsody
wrote:
> I suppose I'm just not clear why it's a huge objection to sayAppareantly I am not coming across at all. I write a lot in this age
> there's two different forms of being being combined in one awards
> set if we use Lamps, Trees, and Sun and Moon. The resons for their
> being put together in a determinate series seem a lot more obvious
> to me than the objection to putting them together, so perhaps
> someone can enlighten me as to why it matters that we're dealing
> with Maiar in one case and 'objective' light in the two other cases.
and I don't see *anything* that appeals to me as an author or that I
can identify with. I am trying to explain that, giving suggestions,
but it doesn't come across at all so I just simply am going to shut up
now. For me, it simply doesn't appeal and I don't go like: wow that is
a real nice sounding name or wow yeah that makes sense (it really
doesn't, but I am failing utterly here). Is it so strange to think
that you can't compare objects to Maiar?? Apples and pears, that is
how it reasons to me. Sun and Moon: all ages. Earendil? He & the
remaining one only *might* play a role during the final battle at the
end of Arda (if that prophecy was intended by Tolkien), but the Sons
of Feanor gave that one up for the sake of all (they still went after
the other two). Just never mind, really.
All I am saying, whatever is decided as of now on, I am not going to
comment on it anymore or explaining it or giving alternatives.
Rhapsody
I'm behind on my reading and posting, but I like Dwim's suggestions
as well. - for all the reasons already listed.
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
w/#2 being the light of the *Two* Trees
and keep 'rising' in the Sun and Moon.
as much as I'm a SilmFreak - I consider that Earendil still sails our
night skys, watching over us and providing light in the darkness, and
don't really consider that a valid 'time' option related to the First
Age. He is actually the connection the M-e has with the modern
world, so perhapes a Light of Earendil or Silmaril of Earendil Award
would be appropriate for a Fourth Age or modern day category.
Sulriel
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:
as well. - for all the reasons already listed.
1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
2. The Light of the Trees Award
3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
w/#2 being the light of the *Two* Trees
and keep 'rising' in the Sun and Moon.
as much as I'm a SilmFreak - I consider that Earendil still sails our
night skys, watching over us and providing light in the darkness, and
don't really consider that a valid 'time' option related to the First
Age. He is actually the connection the M-e has with the modern
world, so perhapes a Light of Earendil or Silmaril of Earendil Award
would be appropriate for a Fourth Age or modern day category.
Sulriel
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:
>Age
>
> > Yes, that last would make sense in that at the end of the First
> > all the Silmarilli became inaccessible, if not actuallydestroyed.
> > While, as you point out, the Sun and the Moon continue on intofuture
> > Ages.is
>
> Well, but thanks to Earendil, the light of at least one Silmaril
> shines on into the Third Age as the morning and evening star, so it
> accessible in the same way that the sun and moon are accessible. SoSilmaril
> there's no differentiation, fundamentally, between the light of the
> Sun and Moon continuing into other ages and the light of the
> continuing into other Ages.Silmarils
>
> I suggested the Sun and Moon because they replace the light of the
> Trees, just as the Trees replace the light of the lamps. The
> never enter into that order, conceived in that manner, and in anycase
> are just the same kind of light as the two Trees, not a differentkind
> of light. The succession does make sense if thought of in this way.I
> suggested the first *rising* of the Sun and Moon because that is anthere's
> event that is unique to the First Age, or at least is no more
> problematic than picking an ending event of any age.
>
> I suppose I'm just not clear why it's a huge objection to say
> two different forms of being being combined in one awards set if weone
> use Lamps, Trees, and Sun and Moon. The resons for their being put
> together in a determinate series seem a lot more obvious to me than
> the objection to putting them together, so perhaps someone can
> enlighten me as to why it matters that we're dealing with Maiar in
> case and 'objective' light in the two other cases.
>
> Dwim
>
Msg# 6519
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Marta Layton December 20, 2005 - 17:28:22 Topic ID# 6486>I've referred to a lot of Dwim's comments in passing, but I'll address
her properly here. My apologies if I repeat myself.
> Message: 3I still find myself partial to this idea, even though a lot of people
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:36:23 -0000
> From: "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>>
>> Here's my suggestions for Times awards names
>>
>> 1. First Age and Earlier
>>
>> 1st: The Manwe Award
>> 2nd: The Ulmo Award
>> 3rd: The Aule Award
>>
>> (the three most important Valar)
>
> How about:
>
> 1. The Lamps of the Valar Award
> 2. The Light of the Trees Award
> 3. The Rising of the Sun and Moon Award
>
>
> That would nicely fit the theme of "Time", and also get in the three
> major different ways of calculating time by different sources of light
> in the First Age and earlier.
>
> (Plus, I have a feeling these may make for far easier visuals--no
> purple Ulmo, for example, and most people can probably find images of
> lamps, trees, suns, and moons that could be made into nice banners.)
>
find it controversial. I think at this point the best way to settle
this will be to set up a poll of some of the major options batted
around, and go with the winner. I'll do that in a minute.
>I like this very much - a lot more than my original suggestion,
>> 3. Early Third Age:
>>
>> 1st: The Elendil Award
>> 2nd: The Isildur Award
>> 3rd: The Éorl Award
>
> Liz has pointed out that Anarion is absent, plus Arnor and Gondor came
> into being in the Second Age.
>
> How about:
>
> 1. The Thrones of Osgiliath Award
> 2. The Founding of the Shire Award
> 3. The Delving of Erebor Award
>
> Two regions newly founded in the (relatively) early Third Age, plus
> the acknowledgment that in Osgiliath, both Isildur and Anarion ruled
> as joint-kings.
>
> Or one could use the Eorl and swap out the Osgiliath award for
> something like "The Raising of Meduseld", and switch the order around
> if desired. Then there would still be three political entities founded
> in the early third age.
>
incidentally. But I think I like Rohan being mentioned, especially if
we're looking at using the withering of the White tree for Late Third
Age. So why don't we have:
Early Third Age
1st: The Raising of Meduseld Award
2nd: The Founding of the Shire Award
3rd: The Delving of Erebor Award
Late Third Age:
1st: The Death of the White Tree Award
2nd: The Battle of the Five Armies Award
3rd: The Long-Expected Party Award
Is that okay with everyone?
>> *or*Agreed.
>>
>> 1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
>> 2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
>> 3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>>
>> (characters that often have stories about their childhood)
>
> There are, I think, far too many characters whose childhoods are
> portrayed for us to choose three without being arbitrary about it. I'd
> rather events or some artifacts that are significant be used.
>
>> 5. Great Years:It does make sense, and I'm not sure why I didn't suggest it to begin
>>
>> 1st: The Halbarad Award
>> 2nd: The Háma Award
>> 3rd: The Dáin Award
>>
>> (three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
>> forgotten)
>
> At the risk of confusing matters, why not use the book titles here?
> FOTR, TTT, ROTK. Lots of options for banners, and it just makes sense
> if we're thinking of thigns that cover these years.
>
with. Possibly because I was trying to stay away from source material,
but you're right, in this case it definitely does work. I don't find it
particularly exciting, but I can certainly live with it.
Though I will admit, I'm surprised you didn't jump at the chance for an
award honouring Halbarad's death. :-P
>> 6. The Fourth Age and Beyond:I'll set up another poll on this issue. Just to be on the safe side;
>>
>> 1st: The Annúminas Award
>> 2nd: The Emyn Arnen Award (or: The Ithilien Award)
>> 3rd: The Undertowers Award
>
> Like the Emyn Arnen Award better than the Ithilien award. Keeps with
> the tower theme.
>
I'm really fine with either.
>> 7. Multi-Age:I like that, too. Like I said I was concerned about finding another
>>
>> 1st: The Celeborn Award
>> 2nd: The Treebeard Award
>> 3rd: The Durin Award
>>
>> (characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
>> and appear in more than one age)
>
> I like Liz's idea of the Tom Bombadil award put in here somewhere. He
> is at least instantly recognizable thanks to the hat and boots.
>
humour award, but I think that's doable.
Marta
> Message: 2I think this is always going to be a problem with having the awards be
> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:49:57 -0000
> From: "Liz" <liz.warren@blueyonder.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
> <snip>
>>> 5. Great Years:
>>>
>>> 1st: The Halbarad Award
>>> 2nd: The Háma Award
>>> 3rd: The Dáin Award
>>>
>>> (three characters who died in the War of the Ring, yet are often
>>> forgotten)
>>
>> At the risk of confusing matters, why not use the book titles here?
>> FOTR, TTT, ROTK. Lots of options for banners, and it just makes sense
>> if we're thinking of thigns that cover these years.
>
> I agree that this makes things simpler. The only slight drawback I see
> is that someone could end up with a RotK Award for a story set during
> FotR, which would be a bit odd. But probably no odder than, say,
> getting The Háma Award for a story about The Scouring of the Shire....
>
named like this. I'm more concerned that they at least refer to the
type of stories that will be competing. My suggestion didn't, because
there were loads of races that didn't have a person mentioned. I think
the one to use books works much better because it covers all of the
time represented in the awards.
Marta
> Message: 4I see your point on this, but I still think we should go with key
> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:41:09 -0000
> From: "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
>
>>> 4. Late Third Age:
>>>
>>> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
>>> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
>>> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>>>
>>> (three major events of this time period)
>
> Had a thought just now about this set of awards, even though it
> doesn't include the Quest for Erebor. What if the awards for the Late
> Third Age were:
>
> 1. The Ruling Ring Award
> 2. The Three Rings Award
> 3. The Nine Rings Award
>
> Reasoning: the surviving Rings are what will shape the defining (and
> closing) event of the Third Age--the Ring War and the departure of
> the Ring-bearers; the Late Third Age is the period when the various
> factions begin to move towards that war.
>
events of this period. My reasoning is:
1. None of these rings were unique to this period
2. None of these rings were created in this period
3. None of these rings were as active as they were in other periods.
For example, the Nine hadn't been abroad in years before the Great
Years.
It would be interesting, so I'll go with popular opinion on this one.
But I think the different events would work better. At this point I'm
leaning toward:
1st: The Death of the White Tree Award
2nd: The Battle of the Five Armies Award
3rd: The Long-Expected Party Award
Marta
Msg# 6528
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by dwimmer\_laik December 23, 2005 - 13:05:28 Topic ID# 6486<snip>
together, and the Ring theme was the only one I could come up with.
Your list gets in a key event of the Quest for Erebor (one could, I
suppose sub in The Dragon's Downfall for The Battle of Five Armies),
and two key events, at disparate locations, that will be important for
the unfolding of the Great Years. Works for me.
Dwim
> I see your point on this, but I still think we should go with keyMakes sense to me. I was having trouble coming up with things that fit
> events of this period. My reasoning is:
>
> 1. None of these rings were unique to this period
> 2. None of these rings were created in this period
> 3. None of these rings were as active as they were in other periods.
> For example, the Nine hadn't been abroad in years before the Great
> Years.
>
> It would be interesting, so I'll go with popular opinion on this one.
> But I think the different events would work better. At this point I'm
> leaning toward:
>
> 1st: The Death of the White Tree Award
> 2nd: The Battle of the Five Armies Award
> 3rd: The Long-Expected Party Award
together, and the Ring theme was the only one I could come up with.
Your list gets in a key event of the Quest for Erebor (one could, I
suppose sub in The Dragon's Downfall for The Battle of Five Armies),
and two key events, at disparate locations, that will be important for
the unfolding of the Great Years. Works for me.
Dwim
Msg# 6529
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by rhapsody\_the\_bard December 23, 2005 - 14:18:05 Topic ID# 6486--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:
Numenor (Nimloth, who perished in the fires of and I thought earlier
on as well (if my memory serves me correctly .. And Telperion (thge
1st one) was also called The White tree... (who died way before the
first age), then there is the tree of Tol Eressëa, Celeborn, was
itself descended from Galathilion, the White Tree that stood in Tirion
that was made by Yavanna herself (an image of Telperion). Then there
was the white tree in Minas Ithil... the seedling rescued by Isildur
(again, he should get his own rescueing seedlings award), which gave
birth to a couple of white trees that resided in the courtyard of
Minas Tirith...
So... eum. Here are the White trees I know of (and all died by the
looks of it)... Telperion -> Gathalion -> Celeborn -> Nimloth ->
various versions of the White trees of Gondor...
*searches for cover*
Rhapsody
wrote:
>But the White Tree did die before this time period... at least at
> <snip>
> > I see your point on this, but I still think we should go with key
> > events of this period. My reasoning is:
> >
> > 1. None of these rings were unique to this period
> > 2. None of these rings were created in this period
> > 3. None of these rings were as active as they were in other periods.
> > For example, the Nine hadn't been abroad in years before the Great
> > Years.
> >
> > It would be interesting, so I'll go with popular opinion on this one.
> > But I think the different events would work better. At this point I'm
> > leaning toward:
> >
> > 1st: The Death of the White Tree Award
Numenor (Nimloth, who perished in the fires of and I thought earlier
on as well (if my memory serves me correctly .. And Telperion (thge
1st one) was also called The White tree... (who died way before the
first age), then there is the tree of Tol Eressëa, Celeborn, was
itself descended from Galathilion, the White Tree that stood in Tirion
that was made by Yavanna herself (an image of Telperion). Then there
was the white tree in Minas Ithil... the seedling rescued by Isildur
(again, he should get his own rescueing seedlings award), which gave
birth to a couple of white trees that resided in the courtyard of
Minas Tirith...
So... eum. Here are the White trees I know of (and all died by the
looks of it)... Telperion -> Gathalion -> Celeborn -> Nimloth ->
various versions of the White trees of Gondor...
*searches for cover*
Rhapsody
-- "rhapsody_the_bard" <rhapsody74@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually, though, I had a slight issue with the award title "Death of the White Tree," too, but for entirely different reasons. It's not a big issue and I certainly live with the award title if everyone else likes it, but...
It might just be me, but does anyone else think it odd to have "Death of the White Tree" as an AWARD title? It's kind of a negative thing. And while there are other negative-sounding award titles, they're generally for genres like horror and villains. I guess I'm looking for something a bit more positive. Something...I don't know, like "Calling of the White Council" or something like that. Something with less of a negative spin than the dying White Tree.
That's my thought, anyway. Like I said, I don't have any major objections to "Death of the White Tree." But something to do with the White Council or the rebuilding of the White Tower or something along those lines could be a possibility.
Thundera
-----------------------------------------------
--Okay, I'll make a deal with you: If we go out
on patrol and Gotham is quiet with no sign of
the Joker, we come back here, have Christmas
dinner, and watch ýItýs a Wonderful Life.ý
--You know, Iýve never seen that. I could never
get past the title.
Robin and Batman - Batman: The Animated Series
-----------------------------------------------
>> But the White Tree did die before this time period... at least atIs there a way to differentiate between the trees? Without creating something that would be overly cumbersome as a banner title? That might solve the problem.
>> Numenor (Nimloth, who perished in the fires of and I thought earlier
>> on as well (if my memory serves me correctly .. And Telperion (thge
>> 1st one) was also called The White tree... (who died way before the
>> first age), then there is the tree of Tol Eressýa, Celeborn, was
>> itself descended from Galathilion, the White Tree that stood in
>> Tirion that was made by Yavanna herself (an image of Telperion).
>> Then there was the white tree in Minas Ithil... the seedling
>> rescued by Isildur (again, he should get his own rescueing
>> seedlings award), which gave birth to a couple of white trees that
>> resided in the courtyard of Minas Tirith...
Actually, though, I had a slight issue with the award title "Death of the White Tree," too, but for entirely different reasons. It's not a big issue and I certainly live with the award title if everyone else likes it, but...
It might just be me, but does anyone else think it odd to have "Death of the White Tree" as an AWARD title? It's kind of a negative thing. And while there are other negative-sounding award titles, they're generally for genres like horror and villains. I guess I'm looking for something a bit more positive. Something...I don't know, like "Calling of the White Council" or something like that. Something with less of a negative spin than the dying White Tree.
That's my thought, anyway. Like I said, I don't have any major objections to "Death of the White Tree." But something to do with the White Council or the rebuilding of the White Tower or something along those lines could be a possibility.
Thundera
-----------------------------------------------
--Okay, I'll make a deal with you: If we go out
on patrol and Gotham is quiet with no sign of
the Joker, we come back here, have Christmas
dinner, and watch ýItýs a Wonderful Life.ý
--You know, Iýve never seen that. I could never
get past the title.
Robin and Batman - Batman: The Animated Series
-----------------------------------------------
--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Laura" <thunderalaura@j...> wrote:
discussions...it seems like award titles should be, y'know, uplifting
and celebratory and all that. But as I have no alternatives to
suggest at the moment, I'll just close by saying:
Have a festive and joyous holiday, everyone!
Kathy (Inkling)
>I've had the same thought myself a few times during these
> It might just be me, but does anyone else think it odd to
> have "Death of the White Tree" as an AWARD title? It's kind of a
> negative thing. And while there are other negative-sounding award
> titles, they're generally for genres like horror and villains. I
> guess I'm looking for something a bit more positive. Something...I
> don't know, like "Calling of the White Council" or something like
> that. Something with less of a negative spin than the dying White
> Tree.
>
> That's my thought, anyway. Like I said, I don't have any major
> objections to "Death of the White Tree." But something to do with
> the White Council or the rebuilding of the White Tower or something
> along those lines could be a possibility.
>
discussions...it seems like award titles should be, y'know, uplifting
and celebratory and all that. But as I have no alternatives to
suggest at the moment, I'll just close by saying:
Have a festive and joyous holiday, everyone!
Kathy (Inkling)
> Message: 2Well, given the time frame we're talking about, I think most people
> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:18:02 -0000
> From: "rhapsody_the_bard" <rhapsody74@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> I see your point on this, but I still think we should go with key
>>> events of this period. My reasoning is:
>>>
>>> 1. None of these rings were unique to this period
>>> 2. None of these rings were created in this period
>>> 3. None of these rings were as active as they were in other periods.
>>> For example, the Nine hadn't been abroad in years before the Great
>>> Years.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting, so I'll go with popular opinion on this one.
>>> But I think the different events would work better. At this point I'm
>>> leaning toward:
>>>
>>> 1st: The Death of the White Tree Award
>
> But the White Tree did die before this time period... at least at
> Numenor (Nimloth, who perished in the fires of and I thought earlier
> on as well (if my memory serves me correctly .. And Telperion (thge
> 1st one) was also called The White tree... (who died way before the
> first age), then there is the tree of Tol Eressëa, Celeborn, was
> itself descended from Galathilion, the White Tree that stood in Tirion
> that was made by Yavanna herself (an image of Telperion). Then there
> was the white tree in Minas Ithil... the seedling rescued by Isildur
> (again, he should get his own rescueing seedlings award), which gave
> birth to a couple of white trees that resided in the courtyard of
> Minas Tirith...
>
> So... eum. Here are the White trees I know of (and all died by the
> looks of it)... Telperion -> Gathalion -> Celeborn -> Nimloth ->
> various versions of the White trees of Gondor...
>
would naturally assume the "White Tree of Gondor". But it's hard for
me to judge what most people would think just because late Third Age
Gondor is my personal obsession. When I was suggesting this award I was
thinking of the following entry from the Tale of Years:
> 2852But other people also have concerns about this award:
> Belecthor II of Gondor dies. The White Tree dies, and no seedling can
> be found. The Dead Tree is left standing.
>> [Thundera Tiger]I can certainly see that concern! I guess I was thinking that the White
>> Actually, though, I had a slight issue with the award title "Death of
>> the White Tree," too, but for entirely different reasons. It's not a
>> big issue and I certainly live with the award title if everyone else
>> likes it, but...
>>
>> It might just be me, but does anyone else think it odd to have "Death
>> of the White Tree" as an AWARD title? It's kind of a negative thing.
>> And while there are other negative-sounding award titles, they're
>> generally for genres like horror and villains. I guess I'm looking
>> for something a bit more positive. Something...I don't know, like
>> "Calling of the White Council" or something like that. Something with
>> less of a negative spin than the dying White Tree.
>
> [Inkling]
> I've had the same thought myself a few times during these
> discussions...it seems like award titles should be, y'know, uplifting
> and celebratory and all that.
Tree of Gondor could make some really nice banners, and its withering
and being left there for dead is a symbol for so much else that is
going on, in Gondor and elsewhere.
I don't have a lot of suggestions, either. It would be nice to have an
award that was tied to Gondor or Rohan, since there's a lot going on in
these years, especially in Gondor. "The Building of Henneth Annun"
might work, but it's not what I'd call a major event. "The Rebuilding
of Barad-dur" is definitely positive, but an uplifting thing for the
baddies seems almost as bad as the death of the white tree. There's
"The Emptying of Ithilien", but that's negative, too. And of course
there's the defeat of the Corsairs in (I think?) 2980, but I can't
think of an award title that points specifically to that.
I also considered more personal events. The biggest one that comes to
mind is the trothplighting of Aragorn and Arwen. Obviously a huge
moment in their relationship (which is in its own way politically
important), and definitely uplifting. If we decide to go that way I
think we should reconsider the "Aragorn and Arwen" romance award, but
we can do that later. There are certainly lots of other couples to
choose from.
[Kathy]
> But as I have no alternatives toYou too, and everyone!
> suggest at the moment, I'll just close by saying:
>
> Have a festive and joyous holiday, everyone!
>
Marta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Message: 1I don't have a problem changing "The Battle of Five Armies" to anything
> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:04:04 -0000
> From: "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> <snip>
>> I see your point on this, but I still think we should go with key
>> events of this period. My reasoning is:
>>
>> 1. None of these rings were unique to this period
>> 2. None of these rings were created in this period
>> 3. None of these rings were as active as they were in other periods.
>> For example, the Nine hadn't been abroad in years before the Great
>> Years.
>>
>> It would be interesting, so I'll go with popular opinion on this one.
>> But I think the different events would work better. At this point I'm
>> leaning toward:
>>
>> 1st: The Death of the White Tree Award
>> 2nd: The Battle of the Five Armies Award
>> 3rd: The Long-Expected Party Award
>
> Makes sense to me. I was having trouble coming up with things that fit
> together, and the Ring theme was the only one I could come up with.
> Your list gets in a key event of the Quest for Erebor (one could, I
> suppose sub in The Dragon's Downfall for The Battle of Five Armies),
> and two key events, at disparate locations, that will be important for
> the unfolding of the Great Years. Works for me.
>
else _Hobbit_-related, but I am hesitant to have two _Hobbit_-centric
titles. So for example I'd rather not have "The Calling of the White
Council" and "The Battle of Five Armies", or "The Fall of the Dragon"
and "The Battle of Five Armies".
Incidentally, does anyone know whether Tolkien refers to it as "The
Battle of the Five Armies" or "The Battle of Five Armies"? I'm not
sure, and I'll need to correct the list I'm keeping for my records if
it's the latter.
Thanks,
Marta
-- Marta Layton <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:
Of course, you're still missing a tie-in with Gondor, but there's the rebuilding of the White Tower, the renaming of Minas Tirith, Henneth Annun, etc. You could go with any of those, too. But I wonder if we shouldn't try to hit something earlier in Late Third Age, because both Bilbo's farewell feast and the Quest for Erebor happen toward the end, so you're missing the early years of the Late Third Age. Just my opinion.
And a Happy Holidays to everybody celebrating!
Thundera
-----------------------------------------------
--Okay, I'll make a deal with you: If we go out
on patrol and Gotham is quiet with no sign of
the Joker, we come back here, have Christmas
dinner, and watch ýItýs a Wonderful Life.ý
--You know, Iýve never seen that. I could never
get past the title.
Robin and Batman - Batman: The Animated Series
------------------------------------------------
>> I don't have a problem changing "The Battle of Five Armies" toPersonally, I like the Five Armies idea. Not sure how one might create a banner from it, but I still like it. But in defense of the White Council idea (if it's something people are interested in), the White Council was formed back in 2463, almost 500 years before any events from "The Hobbit" took place, and it's last meeting was in 2953. So it's really not "Hobbit" related and the White Council itself spans most of the Late Third Age, which is the category it would fall under. Still just a thought, but the more I consider it, the more I like it as an award option.
>> anything else _Hobbit_-related, but I am hesitant to have two
>> _Hobbit_-centric titles. So for example I'd rather not have "The
>> Calling of the White Council" and "The Battle of Five Armies",
>> or "The Fall of the Dragon" and "The Battle of Five Armies".
Of course, you're still missing a tie-in with Gondor, but there's the rebuilding of the White Tower, the renaming of Minas Tirith, Henneth Annun, etc. You could go with any of those, too. But I wonder if we shouldn't try to hit something earlier in Late Third Age, because both Bilbo's farewell feast and the Quest for Erebor happen toward the end, so you're missing the early years of the Late Third Age. Just my opinion.
>> Incidentally, does anyone know whether Tolkien refers to it as "TheThe Tale of Years has it as "The Battle of THE Five Armies," without the allcaps, of course.
>> Battle of the Five Armies" or "The Battle of Five Armies"? I'm not
>> sure, and I'll need to correct the list I'm keeping for my records
>> if it's the latter.
And a Happy Holidays to everybody celebrating!
Thundera
-----------------------------------------------
--Okay, I'll make a deal with you: If we go out
on patrol and Gotham is quiet with no sign of
the Joker, we come back here, have Christmas
dinner, and watch ýItýs a Wonderful Life.ý
--You know, Iýve never seen that. I could never
get past the title.
Robin and Batman - Batman: The Animated Series
------------------------------------------------
>> Incidentally, does anyone know whether Tolkien refers to it as "TheOoo, here's something I didn't catch before sending out my last email. In "The Hobbit" itself, the battle is called "The Battle of Five Armies." But the Tale of Years definitely has "The Battle of the Five Armies." So we could probably go either way on this. Who do we trust? Bilbo or the Tale of Years?
>> Battle of the Five Armies" or "The Battle of Five Armies"? I'm not
>> sure, and I'll need to correct the list I'm keeping for my records
>> if it's the latter.
Thundera (Still wishing all a Happy Holidays)
-----------------------------------------------
--Okay, I'll make a deal with you: If we go out
on patrol and Gotham is quiet with no sign of
the Joker, we come back here, have Christmas
dinner, and watch ýItýs a Wonderful Life.ý
--You know, Iýve never seen that. I could never
get past the title.
Robin and Batman - Batman: The Animated Series
-----------------------------------------------
Msg# 6545
Re: 'Times' awards names Posted by Marta Layton December 28, 2005 - 21:38:47 Topic ID# 6486>Hi Laura,
> Message: 5I'm always so impressed with how creative our banner-makers are. I'm
> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 01:07:36 GMT
> From: "Laura" <thunderalaura@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> -- Marta Layton <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't have a problem changing "The Battle of Five Armies" to
>>> anything else _Hobbit_-related, but I am hesitant to have two
>>> _Hobbit_-centric titles. So for example I'd rather not have "The
>>> Calling of the White Council" and "The Battle of Five Armies",
>>> or "The Fall of the Dragon" and "The Battle of Five Armies".
>
> Personally, I like the Five Armies idea. Not sure how one might create
> a banner from it, but I still like it.
sure if there's a way to do it, they'll find it. :-) It may be
text-based rather than graphical, but I'm sure we'll be pleasantly
surprised.
> But in defense of the White Council idea (if it's something peopleThat's a good point. I think in terms of the different books it's only
> are interested in), the White Council was formed back in 2463, almost
> 500 years before any events from "The Hobbit" took place, and it's
> last meeting was in 2953. So it's really not "Hobbit" related and the
> White Council itself spans most of the Late Third Age, which is the
> category it would fall under. Still just a thought, but the more I
> consider it, the more I like it as an award option.
>
really mentioned in "The Hobbit" - though of course the appendices
establish it as running all along. So it's an option, probably a good
one.
> Of course, you're still missing a tie-in with Gondor, but there's theI would like something earlier. That's why I suggested the White Tree
> rebuilding of the White Tower, the renaming of Minas Tirith, Henneth
> Annun, etc. You could go with any of those, too. But I wonder if we
> shouldn't try to hit something earlier in Late Third Age, because both
> Bilbo's farewell feast and the Quest for Erebor happen toward the end,
> so you're missing the early years of the Late Third Age. Just my
> opinion.
>
thing - the last white tree of Gondor died very early in the time
period, I think 2852 (I'm going from memory here).
How about this? I'll set up a poll with the following options:
The White Council Award
The Building of Henneth Annun Award
The Desertion of Ithilien Award
The Rebuilding of Barad-dur Award
The Death of the White Tree of Gondor Award
The Destruction of the Corsair Fleet Award
The Betrothal of Aragorn and Arwen Award
Whichever one of these gets the most votes will be the third options.
>>> Incidentally, does anyone know whether Tolkien refers to it as "TheThanks! Will make an appropriate note on my list...
>>> Battle of the Five Armies" or "The Battle of Five Armies"? I'm not
>>> sure, and I'll need to correct the list I'm keeping for my records
>>> if it's the latter.
>
> The Tale of Years has it as "The Battle of THE Five Armies," without
> the allcaps, of course.
>
Marta
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