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> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:51:09 -0000
> From: "Liz" <liz.warren@blueyonder.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
>
> Hi Marta
>
> Thanks for starting us off with a list of suggestions - always a
> difficult task. I think there are some great ideas here.

It's not easy, of course. The difficult part is fatigue. I think there
were certain names that I didn't think through as well as others, just
because I was doing a bunch at once.

> But (being
> me) I'm going to put my canon-geek hat on and quibble with some of
> them. I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't use your suggestions,
> just that we should maybe be aware of the canonical issues involved.
> :-D
>

Being aware is a good thing. I'm trying to balance strict canonicity
against what people will know and identify with, but it's impossible to
even try to do that without knowing what the canon says. Thanks for
your comment.

> I've snipped a couple of awards where I have no comments.
>
>> 1. First Age and Earlier
>>
>> 1st: The Manwe Award
>> 2nd: The Ulmo Award
>> 3rd: The Aule Award
>>
>> (the three most important Valar)
>
> Uh, the three most important "male" Valar.... Why no "female" Valar?
> ;-)
>
> To quote the Valaquenta: "Among them Nine were of chief power and
> reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the
> Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwý and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and
> Aulý, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromý."
>
> It's hard to pick just three from eight, but I would suggest having
> Yavanna in there, since she created the Trees.
>

I think my hthought that Manwe, Aule, and Ulmo are the most important
comes from this paragraph:

Now to water had that Ainu whom the Elves can Ulmo turned his thought,
and of all most deeply was he instructed by Ilývatar in music. But of
the airs and winds Manwý most had pondered, who is the noblest of the
Ainur. Of the fabric of Earth had Aulý thought, to whom Ilývatar had
given skin and knowledge scarce less than to Melkor; but the delight
and pride of Aulý is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and
neither m possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and
hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work.

I think in my mind this crossed with the classical Greek story about
the titans and the sons of I think Chronus (Grk. equivalent of Saturn -
I'm blanking). The parallel between a god who govern the airs (Zeus),
the waters (Poseidon), and the earth (Hades), always struck me as
really strong, so I think I always subconsciously connected the two
stories. You're right, I can't find anywhere where Tolkien says the
three were the most important.

If we decide we want to go with a Valar-themed awards, we might choose
"Manwe and Varda", "Ulmo", and "Aule and Yavanna". But I think there
are better systems. I like the light, like I said, but that seems to be
controversial. I think someone suggested using the First Age divisions
of the Silm (Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Quenta Silm.), and I have no
great problem with that.

<snip>

>> 3. Early Third Age:
>>
>> 1st: The Elendil Award
>> 2nd: The Isildur Award
>> 3rd: The ýorl Award
>>
>> (the founders of the three kingdoms of Men founded in the early third
>> age - Arnor, Gondor, Rohan)
>
> A few issues here. ;-)
>
> While I can see from our definition of Early Third Age that the
> foundation of Rohan falls into this timeframe, it's some 2500 years
> later than the other two and that just seems "odd" to me.(I guess I
> don't divide the Third Age up that way in my mind.)
>

Very true. I was struggling to come up with a third choice, and Rohan
was all I could come up with.

> Also, technically speaking, Arnor and Gondor were founded in the
> Second Age. And poor Anarion (who co-founded Gondor) doesn't get a
> look in here.... ;-)
>

For some weird reason I had forgotten he had cofounded. I guess because
I latched on to the passage about Isildur handing over the crown to
Anarion's son Melendil - it's easy to forget, at least for me. I seem
to have become very canon-impaired lately, so thanks for reminding me
(both Liz and everyone else who's done this).

> I'm struggling to think of an alternative, but maybe something like
>
> 1. The Valandil and Meneldil Awards (Isildur and Anarion's sons and
> the first two kings of Arnor and Gondor who ruled wholly in the Third
> Age)
> 2. The Thrýin I award (first King Under the Mountain)
> 3. The Eorl Award (first King of Rohan) (and btw, Eorl does not have
> an accent over it... confusing, I know.)
>

I don't like Valandil and Meneldil simply because it's too obscure; I
don't think people who aren't well versed in the period will know
exactly who they are, at least not that easily. But I do agree, what I
proposed above doesn't work. Dwim had some nice suggestions which I'll
get to in a bit, though probably tomorrow.

>> 4. Late Third Age:
>>
>> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
>> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
>> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
>>
>> (three major events of this time period)
>
> I like the suggestion of renaming the Bilbo's Party Award that's been
> made. But all these seem a little Hobbit-centred. (And I initially
> thought the Fell Winter = the Long Winter, when Helm died - which is
> my bad!)
>

Would it seem less hobbit-centric if we had another event besides Fell
Winter? Something that concerned men or elves especially? Some options
might be:

1. Death of the White Tree (2852)
2. Battle of Poros (2885)
3. Building of Henneth Annun (2901)
4. Erupting of Mount Doom (2954)
5. Sacking of the Corsair Fleet (2980)
6. Trothplight of Aragorn and Arwen (2980)
7. Dwarves Re-enter Moria (2989)

Any of these sound appealing? I know #2 is historically important, but
I think it's also pretty obscure and so I'm not crazy about it. I'm
particularly partial to #1 just because it's so iconic and
representative of the decline that seems to be happening in this
period.

>> *or*
>>
>> 1st: The Boromir and Faramir Award
>> 2nd: The Eomer and Eowyn Award
>> 3rd: The Little Legolas Award
>>
>> (characters that often have stories about their childhood)
>
> And this seems not Hobbity enough to me! Besides, I would think Little
> Legolas stories would be pre 2850. (I know we don't know exactly how
> old he is, but his comment in Fangorn suggests he personally doesn't
> see 500 years as a very long time, while he calls both Gimli, who is
> around 140, and Aragorn who is nearly 90, "children"!)
>

You're right, the names is a bad suggestion. I was actually trying to
come up with names that wouldn't cause problems with other awards --
Merry and Pippin was in humor, and "The Frodo and Sam Award" didn't
strike me as invoking the image of them as children somehow. I can't
explain it.

But anyway, let's go with the events instead of the children.

> * The Battle of the Five Armies Award (which overlaps the Quest of
> Erebor, of course, but maybe suggests a wider racial spread)

Excellent suggestion. If no one objects I'll go ahead and adopt this
one in the list I'm using to keep track of this.

>> 7. Multi-Age:
>>
>> 1st: The Celeborn Award
>> 2nd: The Treebeard Award
>> 3rd: The Durin Award
>>
>> (characters who seem to transcend the different ages of Middle-earth
>> and appear in more than one age)
>
> A couple of other suggestions:
>
> * The Tom Bombadil Award (As Elrond says: "But I had forgotten
> Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and
> hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not
> then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless.
> But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by
> the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names beside.")
>
> * The Glorfindel Award (assuming you buy into the re-embodiment theory)
>

I was rather hoping to side-step the Glorfindel controversy. *grin*
Seriously, though, Tom Bombadil as a name is great. SI thought of him
but decided against it because he's already a humor name. Which means
we'll have to come up with a new one there, but that should be doable.
"Gaffer Gamgee Award" could work quite well there, for instance.

And *now* to bed, and now to bed!

Marta

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A few random thoughts:

On 12/19/05, Marta Layton <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:51:09 -0000
> > From: "Liz" <liz.warren@blueyonder.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: 'Times' awards names
> >


>> 1. First Age and Earlier
> >>
> >> 1st: The Manwe Award
> >> 2nd: The Ulmo Award
> >> 3rd: The Aule Award
> >>
> >> (the three most important Valar)
> >
> > Uh, the three most important "male" Valar.... Why no "female" Valar?
> > ;-)
> >
> [quotes and classical Greek references snipped]
>

If we decide we want to go with a Valar-themed awards, we might choose
> "Manwe and Varda", "Ulmo", and "Aule and Yavanna". But I think there
> are better systems. I like the light, like I said, but that seems to be
> controversial. I think someone suggested using the First Age divisions
> of the Silm (Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Quenta Silm.), and I have no
> great problem with that.


YES! EXACTLY! *If* we choose to go with the Valar theme rather than the
Lights Theme (which I really like, as long as #2 is *Two* Trees) or the Silm
Theme (which is also fine with me), then I really believe that these are the
names to use. Any list of important Valar that does not include Varda is
just woefully incomplete in my mind - she is the one called on by the Elves
the most.... and your solution of including the two most important *couples*
is a good one.... we get the 5 most important and active Aratar in 3 award
names..... Very clever!


> >> 4. Late Third Age:
> >>
> >> 1st: The Fell Winter Award
> >> 2nd: The Quest for Erebor Award
> >> 3rd: The Bilbo's Party Award
> >>
> >> (three major events of this time period)
> >
> > I like the suggestion of renaming the Bilbo's Party Award that's been
> > made.


Ah yes... I had suggested Bilbo's Farewell Party, but I really like the
other suggestion of the Long Expected Party... that's perfect!


[snip]
> Would it seem less hobbit-centric if we had another event besides Fell
> Winter? Something that concerned men or elves especially? Some options
> might be:
>
> 1. Death of the White Tree (2852)
> 2. Battle of Poros (2885)
> 3. Building of Henneth Annun (2901)
> 4. Erupting of Mount Doom (2954)
> 5. Sacking of the Corsair Fleet (2980)
> 6. Trothplight of Aragorn and Arwen (2980)
> 7. Dwarves Re-enter Moria (2989)
>
> Any of these sound appealing? I know #2 is historically important, but
> I think it's also pretty obscure and so I'm not crazy about it. I'm
> particularly partial to #1 just because it's so iconic and
> representative of the decline that seems to be happening in this
> period.


I really like #1 also.

I believe that #2 should rightly be called the Battle of the Crossings of
Poros, not the Battle of Poros..... but I agree that it's obscure....
probably no one but Rohan nuts (like me) even know the names of the twin
sons and heirs who died there (Folcred and Fastred, sons of Folcwine, King
of Rohan), or that it was one of the *other* times that the Rohirrim
fulfilled the Oath of Eorl.... Sorry, it's 6 am and I'm blithering as only
obsessive geeks who like to enter juicy details of Middle-earth battles into
the HASA Resources Library can do.... ;-)

This is really nice work, Marta and everyone else who contributed!

- Barbara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]