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Setting asside the Fruit problem, I was just thinking of a compromise with
the Form plan and the Fruit problem. But I came back to another problem,
which I think can't quite override the Story-Category-Shadowing we do now.

Let's say we went to Form plan, leaving aside (is that one s or 2?--I really
used to be a wonderful speller.), and we look at the Short Story category.
In which we have just 3 authors. (As if.) Say the breakdown in reading
stories was the same as it is now, even though we're only talking about
three authors here. These three authors specialize. A writes only Silm
stuff. B writes only The Hobbit. And C writes LOTR. I could tell you
right now who would win the Short Story category, barring some unforeseen
occurance. C. Awould come in 2nd. And B would get 3rd.

Because LOTR gets more readers than Silm and both get more than The Hobbit.
And even if I'm wrong, it really could be as simple as that no matter how we
cut it. Genres. Cultures. How many people read Dwarf stories? Ent
stories? Elf stories? So who is likely to get the most author comments?
Elf stories, out of those three. What about characters? Well, we really
might have some contention between Aragorn writers and Legolas writers and
maybe some Hobbit writers. But what about those who specialize in unsung
heroes?

But do you see where I'm going? The only place Silm writers really have a
fair playing field is against other Silm writers. For example. I'm not
picking on Silm writers. Someone write me a Voronwe fic. I really grew to
like him in the UT.

Anyway, that's the problem I came to. My compromise idea was that we have
Shadowing right now with 3 or 4 major forms as subcats, so my compromise
idea was to have Forms with 3 or 4 major genres as subcats, but I hit on the
popularity problem. The more popular story categories will bring more
readers to those stories in those categories and thus more potential author
votes. And thus it disadvantages writers of less popular story categories.

So what can we do about that? That's the main reason we can't move away
from Shadowing. Is there some we around it?

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

<http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The
Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards

Blog: <http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 23:54:37 -0600
> From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Author Awards, one more thought
>
> Setting asside the Fruit problem, I was just thinking of a compromise
> with
> the Form plan and the Fruit problem. But I came back to another
> problem,
> which I think can't quite override the Story-Category-Shadowing we do
> now.
>
> Let's say we went to Form plan, leaving aside (is that one s or 2?--I
> really
> used to be a wonderful speller.), and we look at the Short Story
> category.
> In which we have just 3 authors. (As if.) Say the breakdown in reading
> stories was the same as it is now, even though we're only talking about
> three authors here. These three authors specialize. A writes only
> Silm
> stuff. B writes only The Hobbit. And C writes LOTR. I could tell you
> right now who would win the Short Story category, barring some
> unforeseen
> occurance. C. Awould come in 2nd. And B would get 3rd.
>
> Because LOTR gets more readers than Silm and both get more than The
> Hobbit.
> And even if I'm wrong, it really could be as simple as that no matter
> how we
> cut it. Genres. Cultures. How many people read Dwarf stories? Ent
> stories? Elf stories? So who is likely to get the most author
> comments?
> Elf stories, out of those three. What about characters? Well, we
> really
> might have some contention between Aragorn writers and Legolas writers
> and
> maybe some Hobbit writers. But what about those who specialize in
> unsung
> heroes?
>
> But do you see where I'm going? The only place Silm writers really
> have a
> fair playing field is against other Silm writers. For example. I'm not
> picking on Silm writers. Someone write me a Voronwe fic. I really
> grew to
> like him in the UT.
>
> Anyway, that's the problem I came to. My compromise idea was that we
> have
> Shadowing right now with 3 or 4 major forms as subcats, so my
> compromise
> idea was to have Forms with 3 or 4 major genres as subcats, but I hit
> on the
> popularity problem. The more popular story categories will bring more
> readers to those stories in those categories and thus more potential
> author
> votes. And thus it disadvantages writers of less popular story
> categories.
>
> So what can we do about that? That's the main reason we can't move
> away
> from Shadowing. Is there some we around it?
>

Hi Ainae,

I think you might be overestimating how divisive the fandom is. I know
a lot of people -- even most -- read stories outside of their comfort
areas. I certainly did. And when I discovered a new author who I was
previously unfamiliar with who I really liked, I was more likely to go
on about them just because I was surprised by their skills.

Also, if a Silm writer is truly concerned about them not getting a fair
shake there's an easy way around it -- just get more Silm-readers to
get involved in writing.

Marta

I think it's as valid a concern as Fred's big review vs. Freditta's many
short ones. And I'd like more opinions on the problem. I haven't seen a
lot of response to either of my points on the Form system.

I'm beginning to think we'd be better just to let go of the Author Awards
and try life without this year. It was stated in last year's PM that they
were harder to write. There are less author reviews. Awards even go
unawarded because maybe only two authors even got reviews. We allowed
voters to copy author reviews across categories to make it easier and still
there wasn't a lot of author-vote turnout, right?

So instead of setting up a popularity system or a competition between the
wrong kinds of fruit, maybe we'd be better to call this part of the awards
something we can do better without.

And then we can take the small amount of time we devoted to author reviews
and add it to our story-review time and have more reviews, or longer ones.

And I'm really sorry to Rhapsody go over all this.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards

Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marta Layton
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:43 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Author Awards, one more thought
>
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 23:54:37 -0600
> > From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Author Awards, one more thought
> >
> > Setting asside the Fruit problem, I was just thinking of a
> compromise
> > with the Form plan and the Fruit problem. But I came back
> to another
> > problem, which I think can't quite override the
> > Story-Category-Shadowing we do now.
> >
> > Let's say we went to Form plan, leaving aside (is that one
> s or 2?--I
> > really used to be a wonderful speller.), and we look at the Short
> > Story category.
> > In which we have just 3 authors. (As if.) Say the breakdown in
> > reading stories was the same as it is now, even though we're only
> > talking about three authors here. These three authors
> specialize. A
> > writes only Silm stuff. B writes only The Hobbit. And C
> writes LOTR.
> > I could tell you right now who would win the Short Story category,
> > barring some unforeseen occurance. C. Awould come in 2nd. And B
> > would get 3rd.
> >
> > Because LOTR gets more readers than Silm and both get more than The
> > Hobbit.
> > And even if I'm wrong, it really could be as simple as that
> no matter
> > how we cut it. Genres. Cultures. How many people read Dwarf
> > stories? Ent stories? Elf stories? So who is likely to
> get the most
> > author comments?
> > Elf stories, out of those three. What about characters? Well, we
> > really might have some contention between Aragorn writers
> and Legolas
> > writers and maybe some Hobbit writers. But what about those who
> > specialize in unsung heroes?
> >
> > But do you see where I'm going? The only place Silm writers really
> > have a fair playing field is against other Silm writers.
> For example.
> > I'm not picking on Silm writers. Someone write me a
> Voronwe fic. I
> > really grew to like him in the UT.
> >
> > Anyway, that's the problem I came to. My compromise idea
> was that we
> > have Shadowing right now with 3 or 4 major forms as subcats, so my
> > compromise idea was to have Forms with 3 or 4 major genres
> as subcats,
> > but I hit on the popularity problem. The more popular story
> > categories will bring more readers to those stories in those
> > categories and thus more potential author votes. And thus it
> > disadvantages writers of less popular story categories.
> >
> > So what can we do about that? That's the main reason we can't move
> > away from Shadowing. Is there some we around it?
> >
>
> Hi Ainae,
>
> I think you might be overestimating how divisive the fandom
> is. I know a lot of people -- even most -- read stories
> outside of their comfort areas. I certainly did. And when I
> discovered a new author who I was previously unfamiliar with
> who I really liked, I was more likely to go on about them
> just because I was surprised by their skills.
>
> Also, if a Silm writer is truly concerned about them not
> getting a fair shake there's an easy way around it -- just
> get more Silm-readers to get involved in writing.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...

> wrote:
>
> I think it's as valid a concern as Fred's big review vs. Freditta's
> many short ones. And I'd like more opinions on the problem. I
> haven't seen a lot of response to either of my points on the Form
> system.

Well, since it seems unlikely that we could get any radical new type
of author awards off the ground for 2006 at this late stage in the
game, I guess I kind of ran out of gas on the topic. But since you
ask, here are some quick thoughts on the points you raised:

Fruit problem: how can you compare humor to horror?
Either try it as an experiment and see what happens. Or decide you
can't and have a few major genre subcats, as you suggested (Short
story: drama, short story: humor, etc.)

Popularity problem: LOTR vs. Silm vs. Hobbit
- don't rank the awards
- have more than three awards in each cat. Maybe a LOT more…10?
20? Heck, why not? If you're considering doing away with them
entirely, why not try out an "experimental" author awards system with
the disclaimer that no one should complain if they don't work out? ;)

Nominations:
For the form awards: everyone is nominated automatically in the
relevant form categories.

IF there are "special awards" for dialogue, opening lines, etc., I
think they would have to be nominated separately from the
stories...otherwise every single author would be eligible for every
award. But don't see why this would create hurt feelings, because
there wouldn't be a situation where your story was nominated and you
weren't…you are automatically entered in every "form" author award
category for which you qualify (i.e., in which you have a story
entered in the MEFAs). These would be in addition.

These all may be terrible ideas, I don't know. But they're just that--
ideas. If we throw out enough of them, something good may turn up
eventually!

>
> I'm beginning to think we'd be better just to let go of the Author

Awards

> and try life without this year.

Now *that* question I can't comment on...since I have never
participated in the Author Awards, I don't think I should
help decide whether to get rid of them or not. I will say I thought
they were confusing, however.

Kathy (Inkling)


It was stated in last year's PM that they

> were harder to write. There are less author reviews. Awards even go
> unawarded because maybe only two authors even got reviews. We

allowed

> voters to copy author reviews across categories to make it easier

and still

> there wasn't a lot of author-vote turnout, right?
>
> So instead of setting up a popularity system or a competition

between the

> wrong kinds of fruit, maybe we'd be better to call this part of the

awards

> something we can do better without.
>
> And then we can take the small amount of time we devoted to author

reviews

> and add it to our story-review time and have more reviews, or

longer ones.

>
> And I'm really sorry to Rhapsody go over all this.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
> MEFA Admin and Founder
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond

said, "for

> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards
>
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marta Layton
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:43 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Author Awards, one more thought
> >
> > > Message: 14
> > > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 23:54:37 -0600
> > > From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
> > > Subject: Author Awards, one more thought
> > >
> > > Setting asside the Fruit problem, I was just thinking of a
> > compromise
> > > with the Form plan and the Fruit problem. But I came back
> > to another
> > > problem, which I think can't quite override the
> > > Story-Category-Shadowing we do now.
> > >
> > > Let's say we went to Form plan, leaving aside (is that one
> > s or 2?--I
> > > really used to be a wonderful speller.), and we look at the

Short

> > > Story category.
> > > In which we have just 3 authors. (As if.) Say the breakdown in
> > > reading stories was the same as it is now, even though we're

only

> > > talking about three authors here. These three authors
> > specialize. A
> > > writes only Silm stuff. B writes only The Hobbit. And C
> > writes LOTR.
> > > I could tell you right now who would win the Short Story

category,

> > > barring some unforeseen occurance. C. Awould come in 2nd. And

B

> > > would get 3rd.
> > >
> > > Because LOTR gets more readers than Silm and both get more than

The

> > > Hobbit.
> > > And even if I'm wrong, it really could be as simple as that
> > no matter
> > > how we cut it. Genres. Cultures. How many people read Dwarf
> > > stories? Ent stories? Elf stories? So who is likely to
> > get the most
> > > author comments?
> > > Elf stories, out of those three. What about characters? Well,

we

> > > really might have some contention between Aragorn writers
> > and Legolas
> > > writers and maybe some Hobbit writers. But what about those who
> > > specialize in unsung heroes?
> > >
> > > But do you see where I'm going? The only place Silm writers

really

> > > have a fair playing field is against other Silm writers.
> > For example.
> > > I'm not picking on Silm writers. Someone write me a
> > Voronwe fic. I
> > > really grew to like him in the UT.
> > >
> > > Anyway, that's the problem I came to. My compromise idea
> > was that we
> > > have Shadowing right now with 3 or 4 major forms as subcats, so

my

> > > compromise idea was to have Forms with 3 or 4 major genres
> > as subcats,
> > > but I hit on the popularity problem. The more popular story
> > > categories will bring more readers to those stories in those
> > > categories and thus more potential author votes. And thus it
> > > disadvantages writers of less popular story categories.
> > >
> > > So what can we do about that? That's the main reason we can't

move

> > > away from Shadowing. Is there some we around it?
> > >
> >
> > Hi Ainae,
> >
> > I think you might be overestimating how divisive the fandom
> > is. I know a lot of people -- even most -- read stories
> > outside of their comfort areas. I certainly did. And when I
> > discovered a new author who I was previously unfamiliar with
> > who I really liked, I was more likely to go on about them
> > just because I was surprised by their skills.
> >
> > Also, if a Silm writer is truly concerned about them not
> > getting a fair shake there's an easy way around it -- just
> > get more Silm-readers to get involved in writing.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kathy
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 2:33 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Author Awards, one more thought
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...
> > wrote:
> >
> > I think it's as valid a concern as Fred's big review vs. Freditta's
> > many short ones. And I'd like more opinions on the problem. I
> > haven't seen a lot of response to either of my points on the Form
> > system.
>
> Well, since it seems unlikely that we could get any radical
> new type of author awards off the ground for 2006 at this
> late stage in the game, I guess I kind of ran out of gas on
> the topic. But since you ask, here are some quick thoughts
> on the points you raised:
>
> Fruit problem: how can you compare humor to horror?
> Either try it as an experiment and see what happens. Or
> decide you can't and have a few major genre subcats, as you
> suggested (Short
> story: drama, short story: humor, etc.)

If we went FORM, I'd definitely think we should do that with subcats.

>
> Popularity problem: LOTR vs. Silm vs. Hobbit
> - don't rank the awards
> - have more than three awards in each cat. Maybe a LOT more.10?
> 20? Heck, why not? If you're considering doing away with
> them entirely, why not try out an "experimental" author
> awards system with the disclaimer that no one should complain
> if they don't work out? ;)

No, the number of awards should be uniform across. There are 3. Just like
in the Olympics. And besides, someone would have to come up with names and
banners for all of those awards.

Oh, that's another minor concern for changing from the SHADOWING method:
banners. Right now, we use the same banners for author awards. We'd have
to come up with new titles and banners if we came up with wholesale new
categories for Author Awards. Could be fun, could be a bother.

>
> Nominations:
> For the form awards: everyone is nominated automatically in
> the relevant form categories.
>
> IF there are "special awards" for dialogue, opening lines,
> etc., I think they would have to be nominated separately from
> the stories...otherwise every single author would be eligible
> for every award. But don't see why this would create hurt
> feelings, because there wouldn't be a situation where your
> story was nominated and you weren't.you are automatically
> entered in every "form" author award category for which you
> qualify (i.e., in which you have a story entered in the
> MEFAs). These would be in addition.
>
> These all may be terrible ideas, I don't know. But they're
> just that-- ideas. If we throw out enough of them, something
> good may turn up eventually!

It's not a bad idea, but I do like that every nomination is on equal footing
in the ASCs and MEFAs. No one can say "Well, MY story was nominated for 4
awards and yours was only nominated for 1!". If we do what you suggest,
somone could definitely do that. Or conversely, someone could say "No one
nominated my story for Best Opening Line" and go cry in their pillow. Or
everyone could self-nominate every story for Best Opening Line instead of
crying in their pillows and we have the same problem of every story being
elligible.

And it would still blow the rule: A story can only be in one category.

> >
> > I'm beginning to think we'd be better just to let go of the Author
> Awards
> > and try life without this year.
>
> Now *that* question I can't comment on...since I have never
> participated in the Author Awards, I don't think I should
> help decide whether to get rid of them or not. I will say I
> thought they were confusing, however.
>

I don't think anyone argues that point.

--Ainaechoiriel
MEFA Admin and Founder

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://gabrielle.sytes.net/mefa The Middle-Earth Fanfiction Awards

Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com