Yahoo Forum Archive

> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:55:51 -0600
> From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: Re: points and various voting matters (sulriel)
>
> <snippage>
> If it's a feeling of "it's unfair because of the subcategories" they
> are in,
> well, that's the biggest issue facing these awards: categorization.
> Maybe
> in ASC they have it easier, except for the one person insufficiently
> reluctant to do it: the Administrator assigns the categories. Though,
> admitedly, she has the support of the headers the authors used and
> thus the
> category suggestions pulled from those headers by the SOS maintainers.
>
> But then some peole can still quibble about which category she put
> them in.
> I think having th authors choose their categories is best, but subcats
> are
> harder . We can't have 75 or 120 story categories so they have to be
> broken
> up. What is the best way to do that? And that is our biggest issue.
>

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>
> I don't want to let the authors choose the subcategory. Besides
being
> *way* too hard, logistics-wise, it would make the whole process too
> contentious.
>
> One idea I had toyed with was allowing authors to request that a
story
> be moved if they really thought it didn't belong in a subcategory.
We
> wouldn't have to tell them what other stories were in a certain
> sub-category; we could send an email something like:
>
> ****
>
> Greetings Author,
>
> The volunteers working with the MEFAs are organising the
nominations
> into the categories and sub-categories that will determine what
stories
> will be competing against which other stories.
>
> Your story [title] was nominated in Drama, and we intend to place
it in
> the sub-category [sub-category]. If you do not feel this is a good
fit
> for your story, we can move it to any of the following
subcategories
> within the Drama category:
>
> [list of eligible sub-categories]
>
> [repeat above for every category author has stories entered in]
>
> If you would like to move your story to a different subcategory
please
> reply back to this email as soon as possible. We will move stories
only
> if they will not make the sub-category they are moving out of or
into
> inviable, so the sooner you reply, the better the chance we will be
> able to accommodate your request.
>
> ******
>
> Let's say Fourth Age has the subcategories
>
> (no subcat) (6 stories)
> Ithilien (5 stories)
> Valinor (13 stories)
> Drabble (9 stories)
> Poetry (5 stories)
> Vignette (9 stories)
>
> And I have a story nominated. Not sure what subcategories will be
> available I mark both Ithilien and Vignette as possible
subcategories.
> My story gets placed in Ithilien but I want to move it to Vignette.
> That's a problem: if we move a story out of Ithilien, Ithilien only
has
> four entries and so is inviable. Therefore I can't request that
change.
> If, however, the situation was changed and my story was in Vignette
and
> I wanted to move it to Ithilien, the admins could make this move
> because that would leave Vignette with 8 stories and Ithilien with
6 --
> both viable.
>
> New scenario: My story is in the (no subcat) subcategory and I want
to
> move it into Valinor. Someone else emails in first and asks that
their
> story (also in (no subcat)) be moved to Vignette, so at the time I
> email in (no subcat) had 5 entries. Moving another one out would
make
> (no subcat) inviable, so we have to say no.
>
> Obviously you have to move into another *eligible* subcat. You
can't
> move from Drabble to Ithilien, but if there were two drabbles
subcats
> (i.e., Shire Drabbles and Gondor Drabbles) you could move from one
to
> the other if you liked.
>
> I know at one time we were talking about having a maximum size for
a
> subcat -- 15 stories -- so that every subcat would have at least 5
and
> no more than 15 stories. I think this is a really good idea,
> personally, but am not sure if it was ever officially decided.
Anyway,
> if we are going with this the moving from one sub-cat to another
would
> work both ways: if a move would bump a subcat over 15 stories, then
we
> won't allow that move either.


As a volunteer categorizer last year (as you were too, of course), I
see both pros and cons to this idea:

Pro: It would help address the problem of authors saying after the
fact, "Had I know there would be subcategory x, I would have
suggested it on my nominating form."

Con: Until all authors replied to the proposed email, you would not
be able to determine which subcats were inviable, as they would be in
a state of flux. To use your first example, at the same time that one
author is asking that her story be moved out of Ithilien, thus making
the subcat inviable, three others might be requesting that their
stories be moved *into* Ithilien. This could result in crazy-making,
11th-hour reshuffling for the categorizers...not a pleasant prospect!
At the very least, you'd have to set a deadline for all such
requests. But even then, you'd have authors complaining that they
didn't get the email, etc.

So I don't know...I'd want to hear from some of the other
categorizers about this one.

Kathy (Inkling)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marta Layton
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:43 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] categorization; was: RE: Re: points
> and various voting matters
>
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:55:51 -0600
> > From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: RE: Re: points and various voting matters (sulriel)
> >
> > <snippage>
> > If it's a feeling of "it's unfair because of the
> subcategories" they
> > are in, well, that's the biggest issue facing these awards:
> > categorization.
> > Maybe
> > in ASC they have it easier, except for the one person
> insufficiently
> > reluctant to do it: the Administrator assigns the
> categories. Though,
> > admitedly, she has the support of the headers the authors used and
> > thus the category suggestions pulled from those headers by the SOS
> > maintainers.
> >
> > But then some peole can still quibble about which category she put
> > them in.
> > I think having th authors choose their categories is best,
> but subcats
> > are harder . We can't have 75 or 120 story categories so
> they have to
> > be broken up. What is the best way to do that? And that is our
> > biggest issue.
> >
>
> I don't want to let the authors choose the subcategory. Besides being
> *way* too hard, logistics-wise, it would make the whole process too
> contentious.
>
> One idea I had toyed with was allowing authors to request
> that a story
> be moved if they really thought it didn't belong in a subcategory. We
> wouldn't have to tell them what other stories were in a certain
> sub-category; we could send an email something like:
>
> ****
>
> Greetings Author,
>
> The volunteers working with the MEFAs are organising the nominations
> into the categories and sub-categories that will determine
> what stories
> will be competing against which other stories.
>
> Your story [title] was nominated in Drama, and we intend to
> place it in
> the sub-category [sub-category]. If you do not feel this is a
> good fit
> for your story, we can move it to any of the following subcategories
> within the Drama category:
>
> [list of eligible sub-categories]
>
> [repeat above for every category author has stories entered in]
>
> If you would like to move your story to a different
> subcategory please
> reply back to this email as soon as possible. We will move
> stories only
> if they will not make the sub-category they are moving out of or into
> inviable, so the sooner you reply, the better the chance we will be
> able to accommodate your request.
>
> ******
>
> Let's say Fourth Age has the subcategories
>
> (no subcat) (6 stories)
> Ithilien (5 stories)
> Valinor (13 stories)
> Drabble (9 stories)
> Poetry (5 stories)
> Vignette (9 stories)
>
> And I have a story nominated. Not sure what subcategories will be
> available I mark both Ithilien and Vignette as possible
> subcategories.
> My story gets placed in Ithilien but I want to move it to Vignette.
> That's a problem: if we move a story out of Ithilien,
> Ithilien only has
> four entries and so is inviable. Therefore I can't request
> that change.
> If, however, the situation was changed and my story was in
> Vignette and
> I wanted to move it to Ithilien, the admins could make this move
> because that would leave Vignette with 8 stories and Ithilien
> with 6 --
> both viable.
>
> New scenario: My story is in the (no subcat) subcategory and
> I want to
> move it into Valinor. Someone else emails in first and asks
> that their
> story (also in (no subcat)) be moved to Vignette, so at the time I
> email in (no subcat) had 5 entries. Moving another one out would make
> (no subcat) inviable, so we have to say no.
>
> Obviously you have to move into another *eligible* subcat. You can't
> move from Drabble to Ithilien, but if there were two drabbles subcats
> (i.e., Shire Drabbles and Gondor Drabbles) you could move from one to
> the other if you liked.
>
> I know at one time we were talking about having a maximum size for a
> subcat -- 15 stories -- so that every subcat would have at
> least 5 and
> no more than 15 stories. I think this is a really good idea,
> personally, but am not sure if it was ever officially
> decided. Anyway,
> if we are going with this the moving from one sub-cat to
> another would
> work both ways: if a move would bump a subcat over 15
> stories, then we
> won't allow that move either.
>
> Marta
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
<snip>
> As a volunteer categorizer last year (as you were too, of course), I
> see both pros and cons to this idea:
>
> Pro: It would help address the problem of authors saying after the
> fact, "Had I know there would be subcategory x, I would have
> suggested it on my nominating form."

We can catch this in the new form right? Along with good liaison
instructions?

> Con: Until all authors replied to the proposed email, you would not
> be able to determine which subcats were inviable, as they would be
> in a state of flux. To use your first example, at the same time that
> one author is asking that her story be moved out of Ithilien, thus
> making the subcat inviable, three others might be requesting that
> their stories be moved *into* Ithilien. This could result in
> crazy-making, 11th-hour reshuffling for the categorizers...not a
> pleasant prospect!

No it isn't. I rather see a small team working closely on this
together. This same team can also decide to graduate stories *after*
categorising is done. So many ideas, I wish I had more energy :-/

> So I don't know...I'd want to hear from some of the other
> categorizers about this one.

The problem with categorising wasn't so much in subcategories, but
shifting stories from deliberately chosen main categories to a less
favoured one without consulting the author about it. To me, imho.

The thing is, and I knew I was very much aware of this as a liaison
ánd categoriser, is that it was or could be clearly told that the
chosen sub-categories would or might lead to a story placed in a
subcategory when needed. At that moment we asked the author to have a
good look at both main categories and subcategories. Maybe it wasn't
explained to the author that well (maybe given the time pressure), so
it should be emphasised in the new form this year that the input and
final approval the author gives upon accepting the nomination: that is it.

I did had big issues this year with moving stories from the main 1st
category to a 3rd chosen category (where in my experience an author
said, oh a third, well let's do that one then, just to comply with the
reuqest to complete the nomination), because the categoriser thought
it would fit better there, ignoring the wish of an author. I strongly
do believe such changes should be communicated with the author first.

I have so many ideas how things can be improved behind the scenes for
the categorisers, especially in organising and giving better
instruction on the how to, to assure uniformity, but this bouncing
baby of mine is keeping me in bed most of the day now that we slowly
approach my due date.

This team can also tackle issues like race/places: Rohan: romance or
Romance: rohan..., decide on graduating categories: just as long if
they work closely together. I knew not knowing my fellow categorisers
that well *kept* me from saying things, it felt a bit uncomfortable to
do so, everyone worked so hard on it and you come back at them saying
your piece. In the end categorisers sought each other out, I at least
chatted with a fellow categoriser about it and that felt really good,
since there weren't clear instructions on it: at least you had that.
Now that I do know volunteers of last year a bit more, I would have
approached things differently (hindsight I know). Since we don't know
how many people will volunteer this year, I think it would be smart to
appoint a core group of people who will do it next year. Rolling up
the sleeves, thinking about the system in advance and maybe during
nomination season, keep an eye on which categories will be popular and
which ones not (this way you can signal things on time). I do believe
it also works very well that for the volunteers who will do the first
phase of categorising, that they know someone is around to ask
questions too, especially when someone is new to it. This year it
really felt like a plunge in the dark... but I still do believe we did
a good job. :c)

Rhapsody
(yeah count me in on at least the categorising thing, to iron that
out, write instructions and such)

> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:48:34 -0600
> From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: categorization; was: RE: Re: points and various voting
> matters
>
> The idea has merit but I see two problems that would have to be worked
> out.
> One you already mentions: viablity.
>

> The second though is bigger: time. We definitely couldn't say "as
> soon as
> possible". There would HAVE to be a deadline. Look at the effort it
> already
> takes to get an author to approve a nomination. And then if they did
> reply,
> the time for swapping those stories around and keeping viability.
>

> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:10:58 -0000
> From: "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: categorization
>
> Hi Marta,
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>>
>> I don't want to let the authors choose the subcategory. Besides
> being
>> *way* too hard, logistics-wise, it would make the whole process too
>> contentious.
>>
>> One idea I had toyed with was allowing authors to request that a
> story
>> be moved if they really thought it didn't belong in a subcategory.
> We
>> wouldn't have to tell them what other stories were in a certain
>> sub-category; we could send an email something like:
>>
>> <snip email for space>
>>
>> Let's say Fourth Age has the subcategories
>>
>> (no subcat) (6 stories)
>> Ithilien (5 stories)
>> Valinor (13 stories)
>> Drabble (9 stories)
>> Poetry (5 stories)
>> Vignette (9 stories)
>>
>> And I have a story nominated. Not sure what subcategories will be
>> available I mark both Ithilien and Vignette as possible
> subcategories.
>> My story gets placed in Ithilien but I want to move it to Vignette.
>> That's a problem: if we move a story out of Ithilien, Ithilien only
> has
>> four entries and so is inviable. Therefore I can't request that
> change.
>> If, however, the situation was changed and my story was in Vignette
> and
>> I wanted to move it to Ithilien, the admins could make this move
>> because that would leave Vignette with 8 stories and Ithilien with
> 6 --
>> both viable.
>>
>> New scenario: My story is in the (no subcat) subcategory and I want
> to
>> move it into Valinor. Someone else emails in first and asks that
> their
>> story (also in (no subcat)) be moved to Vignette, so at the time I
>> email in (no subcat) had 5 entries. Moving another one out would
> make
>> (no subcat) inviable, so we have to say no.
>>
>> Obviously you have to move into another *eligible* subcat. You
> can't
>> move from Drabble to Ithilien, but if there were two drabbles
> subcats
>> (i.e., Shire Drabbles and Gondor Drabbles) you could move from one
> to
>> the other if you liked.
>>
>> I know at one time we were talking about having a maximum size for
> a
>> subcat -- 15 stories -- so that every subcat would have at least 5
> and
>> no more than 15 stories. I think this is a really good idea,
>> personally, but am not sure if it was ever officially decided.
> Anyway,
>> if we are going with this the moving from one sub-cat to another
> would
>> work both ways: if a move would bump a subcat over 15 stories, then
> we
>> won't allow that move either.
>
>
> As a volunteer categorizer last year (as you were too, of course), I
> see both pros and cons to this idea:
>

> Pro: It would help address the problem of authors saying after the
> fact, "Had I know there would be subcategory x, I would have
> suggested it on my nominating form."
>

> Con: Until all authors replied to the proposed email, you would not
> be able to determine which subcats were inviable, as they would be in
> a state of flux. To use your first example, at the same time that one
> author is asking that her story be moved out of Ithilien, thus making
> the subcat inviable, three others might be requesting that their
> stories be moved *into* Ithilien. This could result in crazy-making,
> 11th-hour reshuffling for the categorizers...not a pleasant prospect!
> At the very least, you'd have to set a deadline for all such
> requests. But even then, you'd have authors complaining that they
> didn't get the email, etc.
>

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>
> A deadline wouldn't be a problem, and I think it could be a short
one
> -- 3-5 days should be sufficient IMO. But this brings up another
issue.
>
> I think we may want to reconsider the "check ballot" season. For
one,
> we may want to break it down further into things like a period to
> finalise all the nominations, a period to create subcategories, a
> "swap" period during which authors are contacted and can request
their
> story be moved to a new subcategory, and a check ballot period when
we
> post things to this list and get people to check them for any
errors.
> It could be longer than what we currently allow. Personally I don't
see
> the rush since we have the website and people can start voting on
> everything except authors reviews as soon as a story is nominated.
>
> And I think it would help things immensely if we had a smaller
group,
> maybe five tops, who each would do more categories. This would mean
> more work but it also would require less people, and I think we'd
have
> less communications issues and we'd be able to do this more
> effectively. Just my $.02, of course.
>
> Marta
>

> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:13:33 -0000
> From: "rhapsody_the_bard" <rhapsody74@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: categorization
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
> <snip>
>> As a volunteer categorizer last year (as you were too, of course), I
>> see both pros and cons to this idea:
>>
>> Pro: It would help address the problem of authors saying after the
>> fact, "Had I know there would be subcategory x, I would have
>> suggested it on my nominating form."
>
> We can catch this in the new form right? Along with good liaison
> instructions?
>

>> Con: Until all authors replied to the proposed email, you would not
>> be able to determine which subcats were inviable, as they would be
>> in a state of flux. To use your first example, at the same time that
>> one author is asking that her story be moved out of Ithilien, thus
>> making the subcat inviable, three others might be requesting that
>> their stories be moved *into* Ithilien. This could result in
>> crazy-making, 11th-hour reshuffling for the categorizers...not a
>> pleasant prospect!
>
> No it isn't. I rather see a small team working closely on this
> together. This same team can also decide to graduate stories *after*
> categorising is done. So many ideas, I wish I had more energy :-/
>

> I did had big issues this year with moving stories from the main 1st
> category to a 3rd chosen category (where in my experience an author
> said, oh a third, well let's do that one then, just to comply with the
> reuqest to complete the nomination), because the categoriser thought
> it would fit better there, ignoring the wish of an author. I strongly
> do believe such changes should be communicated with the author first.
>

> It seems like discussion on this has pretty well died down. Should
> we have a poll on it?

>
> > It seems like discussion on this has pretty well died down. Should
> > we have a poll on it?
>
> The question being, should authors be allowed to request a new
> subcategory if they don't like the one they're assigned? <<snipped>>
> Given the lack of discussion, I find myself wondering how big of a
> problem this actually was last year. Marta, did you propose this
> because you heard a lot of complaints about subcat assignments?

>
> I think that the authors should be allowed to list a limited

> possible sub-categories (maybe more than three, maybe five), and

> of preference. But I think it should be made clear at the outset

> preferences are subject to the vagaries of sub-category viability,

> if it does not land in the preferred sub-category *that's it*. I
> categorized last year, and I know a bit more about it now than I

> then--we don't need to set up more work or worry for those doing

> sub-categorization. (I know I often stressed over where to place a

> If an author *strongly* objects to a sub-category, that should be

> case-by-case basis by one of the admins, and the author should have

> option of withdrawing the story. I know this sounds a little

> think with a drop-down list of sub-categories this year, rather

> categorizer simply making them up as she goes there should be far

> trouble on that score--that's one of the reasons that an author

> said "Oh, I didn't know there was one of *those*!" when such a sub-

> did not even exist before.
>
> I suggest that while we are still in post-mortem mode, and before

> gets busy setting up next year's site, that the MEFA staff list

> categorizers to brainstorm possible sub-categories for such a drop-

> list, so as to get as wide a selection as possible.

> option is good, but if we have a good selection, it should not have

> used very often.
>
> Just me.
> Dreamflower

>
> I think that the authors should be allowed to list a limited number
> of possible sub-categories (maybe more than three, maybe five), and
> their order of preference. But I think it should be made clear at
> the outset that these preferences are subject to the vagaries of
> sub-category viability, and that if it does not land in the
> preferred sub-category *that's it*.

> I categorized last year, and I know a bit more about it now than I
> did then--we don't need to set up more work or worry for those doing
> the sub-categorization. (I know I often stressed over where to place
> a story.)

> If an author *strongly* objects to a sub-category, that should be
> taken in a case-by-case basis by one of the admins, and the author
> should have the option of withdrawing the story. I know this sounds
> a little strict, but I think with a drop-down list of
> sub-categories this year, rather than the categorizer simply making
> them up as she goes there should be far less trouble on that
> score--that's one of the reasons that an author would have
> said "Oh, I didn't know there was one of *those*!" when such a
> sub-category did not even exist before.

> I suggest that while we are still in post-mortem mode, and before
> Anthony gets busy setting up next year's site, that the MEFA staff
> list asks categorizers to brainstorm possible sub-categories for
> such a drop-down list, so as to get as wide a selection as possible.
> Offering "other" as an option is good, but if we have a good
> selection, it should not have to be used very often.

> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:26:48 -0000
> From: "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>
>> It seems like discussion on this has pretty well died down. Should
>> we have a poll on it?
>
> The question being, should authors be allowed to request a new
> subcategory if they don't like the one they're assigned?

> To clarify
> further what's being proposed, are you seeing this only as an option
> to move OUT of a subcategory, or also the option to request a move
> INTO a specific new subcat?

> If the latter, I can foresee situations
> where everyone wants to move into a "popular" subcat, and wonder how
> that would be handled: first come, first served?
>

> Given the lack of discussion, I find myself wondering how big of a
> problem this actually was last year. Marta, did you propose this
> because you heard a lot of complaints about subcat assignments? I
> know there was a fair amount of confusion about subcats generally,
> and how to choose subcat suggestions for the nominating form, but
> were there many authors who were unhappy with the subcats they were
> assigned?
>

> Perhaps rather than a poll, this is an issue that should be decided
> by the categorizers once they have signed on this year, since they
> are the ones who would be the most affected by this proposal? Anyone
> else have an opinion on this?
>

> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:55:00 -0000
> From: "sulriel" <Sulriel@htcomp.net>
> Subject: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com,
> Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems like discussion on this has pretty well died down. Should
>>> we have a poll on it?
>>
>> The question being, should authors be allowed to request a new
>> subcategory if they don't like the one they're assigned? <<snipped>>
>> Given the lack of discussion, I find myself wondering how big of a
>> problem this actually was last year. Marta, did you propose this
>> because you heard a lot of complaints about subcat assignments?
>
> I've stayed out of this thread because I didn't help cagetogorize last
> year and don't plan to this year. - but knowing human nature, it
> seems that you are setting up the categorizes for an awful lot more
> work, and setting up potential for conflict with the authors.
>
> of those I nominated, I was somewhat unhappy with where some ended up
> last year - but I trust that the categorizes did the best they could -
> and of course, all turned out well in the end.
>
> I think if the authors are allowed to list/approve possible subcates
> when they approve the nomination, those suggestions should be used in
> order of preference and 'that should be that'.

> I can't imagine the amount of work involved in trying to move
> nominations around once the categories have already been set. ... even
> something as simple as trying to verify the time stamp on an email to
> see which of two request should be honor has to take into account
> world time zones, - do you use the time it says it was sent or the
> time it was recved by the liason? What if one gets lost, stories are
> moved, and then the the *real* first request can't be honored. .. are
> the others moved back ... ???
>

> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:37:55 -0600
> From: <aelfwina@cableone.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
>
> I think that the authors should be allowed to list a limited number of
> possible sub-categories (maybe more than three, maybe five), and their
> order
> of preference. But I think it should be made clear at the outset that
> these
> preferences are subject to the vagaries of sub-category viability, and
> that
> if it does not land in the preferred sub-category *that's it*. I
> categorized last year, and I know a bit more about it now than I did
> then--we don't need to set up more work or worry for those doing the
> sub-categorization. (I know I often stressed over where to place a
> story.)
> If an author *strongly* objects to a sub-category, that should be
> taken in a
> case-by-case basis by one of the admins, and the author should have the
> option of withdrawing the story. I know this sounds a little strict,
> but I
> think with a drop-down list of sub-categories this year, rather than
> the
> categorizer simply making them up as she goes there should be far less
> trouble on that score--that's one of the reasons that an author would
> have
> said "Oh, I didn't know there was one of *those*!" when such a
> sub-category
> did not even exist before.
>
> I suggest that while we are still in post-mortem mode, and before
> Anthony
> gets busy setting up next year's site, that the MEFA staff list asks
> categorizers to brainstorm possible sub-categories for such a drop-down
> list, so as to get as wide a selection as possible. Offering "other"
> as an
> option is good, but if we have a good selection, it should not have to
> be
> used very often.
>
> Just me.
> Dreamflower
>

> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:23:31 -0000
> From: "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, <aelfwina@c...> wrote:
>>
>> I think that the authors should be allowed to list a limited
> number of
>> possible sub-categories (maybe more than three, maybe five), and
> their order
>> of preference. But I think it should be made clear at the outset
> that these
>> preferences are subject to the vagaries of sub-category viability,
> and that
>> if it does not land in the preferred sub-category *that's it*. I
>> categorized last year, and I know a bit more about it now than I
> did
>> then--we don't need to set up more work or worry for those doing
> the
>> sub-categorization. (I know I often stressed over where to place a
> story.)
>> If an author *strongly* objects to a sub-category, that should be
> taken in a
>> case-by-case basis by one of the admins, and the author should have
> the
>> option of withdrawing the story. I know this sounds a little
> strict, but I
>> think with a drop-down list of sub-categories this year, rather
> than the
>> categorizer simply making them up as she goes there should be far
> less
>> trouble on that score--that's one of the reasons that an author
> would have
>> said "Oh, I didn't know there was one of *those*!" when such a sub-
> category
>> did not even exist before.
>>
>> I suggest that while we are still in post-mortem mode, and before
> Anthony
>> gets busy setting up next year's site, that the MEFA staff list
> asks
>> categorizers to brainstorm possible sub-categories for such a drop-
> down
>> list, so as to get as wide a selection as possible.
> Offering "other" as an
>> option is good, but if we have a good selection, it should not have
> to be
>> used very often.
>>
>> Just me.
>> Dreamflower
>
> This all makes sense to me...the more I think about it, and hear
> others' thoughts, the less I like the idea of allowing subcat
> transfer requests. Why don't we wait and see how things go with the
> new info we're providing on subcats this year?
>
> Dreamflower, re: the drop-down idea, there may be too many subcat
> possibilities for a workable drop-down menu, but IIRC the new form
> will link to a complete list of all subcats that have been used in
> the first two years of the MEFAs (Dwim or Marta, is that correct?)
> But the result should be pretty much what you have in mind: providing
> more guidance to authors in suggesting subcats.
>
> Kathy (Inkling)
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marta Layton
> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:56 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
>
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:37:55 -0600
> > From: <aelfwina@cableone.net>
> > Subject: Re: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
> >
> > I think that the authors should be allowed to list a
> limited number
> > of possible sub-categories (maybe more than three, maybe five), and
> > their order of preference. But I think it should be made
> clear at the
> > outset that these preferences are subject to the vagaries of
> > sub-category viability, and that if it does not land in the
> preferred
> > sub-category *that's it*. I categorized last year, and I
> know a bit
> > more about it now than I did then--we don't need to set up
> more work
> > or worry for those doing the sub-categorization. (I know I often
> > stressed over where to place a
> > story.)
> > If an author *strongly* objects to a sub-category, that should be
> > taken in a case-by-case basis by one of the admins, and the author
> > should have the option of withdrawing the story. I know
> this sounds a
> > little strict, but I think with a drop-down list of sub-categories
> > this year, rather than the categorizer simply making them up as she
> > goes there should be far less trouble on that score--that's
> one of the
> > reasons that an author would have said "Oh, I didn't know there was
> > one of *those*!" when such a sub-category did not even exist before.
> >
> > I suggest that while we are still in post-mortem mode, and before
> > Anthony gets busy setting up next year's site, that the MEFA staff
> > list asks categorizers to brainstorm possible
> sub-categories for such
> > a drop-down list, so as to get as wide a selection as possible.
> > Offering "other"
> > as an
> > option is good, but if we have a good selection, it should
> not have to
> > be used very often.
> >
> > Just me.
> > Dreamflower
> >
>
> Hi Dreamflower,
>
> Can you access the files section of the website? Dwimordene
> came up with a form that I think we'll be using. I'll include
> the pertinent section for subcategories in case you can't.
>
> Anyway, the way we're looking at doing it now, the author
> provides things like a list of characters, major events it's
> set around, etc. -- it guides the author through providing
> some information that provides subcategories, and it also
> provides a way to filter stories so you can find all the
> stories, for example, involving Pippin. What you're
> suggesting would be a pretty radical step back to how we did
> things last year, with just a freeform "suggest-a-subcat"
> field. There was a lot of confusion with what exactly people
> were supposed to use. I really think the file as we have it
> now will work a lot better.
>
> The biggest problem is it doesn't give a way to rank the
> subcats. I wouldn't mind having a way to mark a certain
> sub-cat as your first choice or even second choice sub-cat,
> but I don't want to go too far away from what we already have.
>
> Marta
> *****
>
> SUBCATEGORIES
>
> Please fill in the following information./[Please select the
> following from the drop-down lists provided or, if necessary,
> input the required information in the "Other" textbox.] Your
> answers to these questions will help MEFA categorizers place
> your story into a <link FAQ explanation
> of...>subcategory</link>, subject to subcategory viability
> rules. If you do NOT want your story to compete in a
> subcategory based on the answer to a particular question (if,
> for example, your story is set in Rohan but you do not want
> this to be its subcategory), OR if answering a question would
> serve as a spoiler to your story (e.g., entering your story
> into subcategory "Bilbo" derived from question 2 would give
> away who the narrator was, when keeping that information
> hidden for a time was important to your plot), please check
> the box "Decline to answer."
>
> 1. Where does your story primarily take place, or about which
> place does your story revolve (e.g., Gondolin, Houses of
> Healing, Beleriand, Rohan, The Angle, The Shire, Angband
> etc.)? Please limit yourself to four or fewer main places.
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 2. Who are your *main* characters, in order of priority?
> (Acknowledged groups such as "Fellowship", "Ringbearers",
> "Feanorians", etc., also useful here.) Please limit yourself
> to *four or fewer* main characters/groups of characters.
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 3. Which time periods *NOT* listed above does the story
> primarily take place in/focus on (e.g., Pre-quest, Time of
> Trees, War of the Ring, etc.)? Please limit yourself to four
> or fewer times.
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 4. If your story is based on filmed versions of Tolkien's
> work, which film/set of films is it based on?
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 5. Is there a major canonical event around which your story
> revolves (e.g., Akallabeth, destruction of Sirion, making of
> Khazad-dûm, Battle of Unnumbered Tears, etc.)? Please limit
> yourself to four or fewer events.
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 6. Is there a particular subgenre or form commonly used in
> fandom or film/literature that you think is applicable to and
> a good description of your story that isn't represented above
> (e.g., metafic, noir, pastische, filk, etc.)?
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 7. If your story is a poem, what is its form (e.g., haiku,
> tanka, terzanelle, sonnet, free verse etc.)?
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 8. If your story is non-fiction, what is its main topic?
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
> 9. If your story is non-fiction, is it an essay (offering
> interpretation) or an article (research article meant to
> assist others by gathering and presenting useful facts, but
> without offering an interpretation)?
>
> Check box: Decline to answer
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:43:13 -0600
> From: "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: Re: Re: categorization/changing subcategories
>
> Just one thought: What are the consequences for author if they
> "decline to
> answer" everything? Will they remain in General? The consequences
> should
> probably be stated.
>