Yahoo Forum Archive

We've had a member request that the nominations show whether they are slash
or not so that people who want to avoid them can and those who want to read
them can as well.

The question is how to do it. I do know that I have been noting Slash in the
subcategory sugggestion field when the nomination was clear to me that I it
is slash, but that doesn't show up on the web site or the Nominations table.
I could add a field to the Nominations table, but we might need the help of
everyone to check that table over and say what is slash and what isn't.

I do plan that when Nomination Season is over, there will be a much more
detailed list of nominations on the web site, something even nom-member
authors can check to see that their story is categoriezed and rated as they
would want. That would aslo serve readers for readign season to go find the
stories to read.

Given that we can start reading at anytime (even now), a notice about slash
is a good idea for now. I don't want slash writers or readers to feel put
upon, but I think it's fair warning just as warning that a story is a WIP or
graphically violent.

That said, the Slash notice could go with the Reasons for Rating field, with
the graphic sex or violence warnings. And I do hope all nominations are
being noted for any of those things so sensitive readers can beware.

So how best to do this now, since people are already reading (or could be)?
Instead of adding a Slash column to the Nominations table, I could just make
it a Warnings column and graphic violence, etc, could be noted there as
well.

Please chime in, but let's not get into a "Slash is evil" argument. The MEF
Awards accept both, individual readers are free to do so or not to do so.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd say the simplest would be to add a warnings column...

> So how best to do this now, since people are already reading (or could be)?
> Instead of adding a Slash column to the Nominations table, I could just make
> it a Warnings column and graphic violence, etc, could be noted there as
> well.
>
> Please chime in, but let's not get into a "Slash is evil" argument. The MEF
> Awards accept both, individual readers are free to do so or not to do so.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

=====
Larian
larian_elensar@yahoo.com
Keeper of the OEAM archive http://www.ofelvesandmen.com

So how best to do this now, since people are already reading (or could be)?
Instead of adding a Slash column to the Nominations table, I could just make
it a Warnings column and graphic violence, etc, could be noted there as
well.

I think this is probably a Good Idea. Certainly warning someone about Slash
beforehand avoids unpleasantries later.

The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas for concern.

khazar


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"

> The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic

Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/

> BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas

for concern.

>
> khazar

Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
tortured to death. I'd suggest just to include slash in "reasons for
rating" but of course many writers (self included) don't rate slash
stories any higher than they would the same level of het action
(e.g., two boys holding hands is not any less G-rated than a boy
and a girl holding hands), so it logically would not always turn up
there in the summaries.

I accept slash "warnings" for pragmatic reasons--you're right
about "unpleasantries"--but it doesn't mean I have to like 'em.
They can be helpful advertising, though. :)

V.

I come from a tradition that believes in tolerance and so disturbed by the idea of arbitarily rating some stories for one element of it.

I have to say that this system seems silly to me as well. However, if there are people who are going to be offended by 'slash' stories not being marked as such, I suppose they should be marked.
If this is going to be done via a warnings column, I feel that it is very important for it to be consistant as at the moment only stories rated R usually have reasons given for this rating. However, if stories rated PG are going to have a warning for slash, then they should equivalently have a warning for het, violence, swearing etc.
My other problem with this whole idea is what happens about stories where you're not sure whether or not its slash - ie it depends on exactly how you read it whether it is friendship or slash. Part of the problem is that people can interpret anything in different ways depending on what they want to see in it. I would seem unfair to a story like this to rate it as slash given that this might stop a lot of people reading it, whereas not to rate it would leave people being offended by it.
I'm sorry if I'm not being totally clear and tactful, but I'm in the middle of exams and have neither the time nor energy to continue rewriting this until it says exactly what I want it to say without offending anyone.
I hope no one is offended by what I've said, but if they are please remember that these are my views.

Nerwen

----- Original Message -----
From: vulgarweed
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:27 AM
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member


--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
> The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
for concern.
>
> khazar


Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
tortured to death. I'd suggest just to include slash in "reasons for
rating" but of course many writers (self included) don't rate slash
stories any higher than they would the same level of het action
(e.g., two boys holding hands is not any less G-rated than a boy
and a girl holding hands), so it logically would not always turn up
there in the summaries.

I accept slash "warnings" for pragmatic reasons--you're right
about "unpleasantries"--but it doesn't mean I have to like 'em.
They can be helpful advertising, though. :)

V.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "vulgarweed" <fluxed@e...> wrote:

> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
> > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> for concern.
> >
> > khazar
>
>
> Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
> is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> tortured to death.

Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape and graphic
violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the slash
label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).

> I'd suggest just to include slash in "reasons for
> rating"

That seems like a more reasonable idea. Personally, I usually tell the
reader whether a story is a slash story in the summary, so please--if
it's in there, don't cut that part when skooshing summaries into the
database's allotted space. It saves time and trouble.

Dwim

> > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> for concern.
> >
> > khazar
>
>
> Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
> is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> tortured to death.

Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape and graphic
violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the slash
label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).


HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.

I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in any way, shape or form to murder,
rape, etc.

I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have concerns with.

I have been an admin for the last 2 years with the Mithril Awards. This list is based on the things which
have been mentioned the most frequently as things which people who asked to judge didn't want to see.
That means we have had to keep these preferences in mind when working with judges--assigning those
who *will not* read het to slash, and so on.

Perhaps a good compromise would be something like "Strong Sexual Content (slash/het)" to help readers
decide what they wish to read. Or a simple "Het/Slash" choice.

It may disturb some people to know that not everyone shares their tastes. But that's part of what makes the
world so interesting. It would be a very dull world indeed if we did not all enjoy different things. Not enjoying
the same things does not automatically make someone evil, stupid, prejudiced, sick, perverted, hateful or
mean.

Except me, of course, who is all of those things, and more. ;-)

khazar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
<dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:

> > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> > for concern.
> > >
> > > khazar
> >
> >
> > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
> > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > tortured to death.
>
> Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape and graphic
> violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
> violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the slash
> label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
> however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
>
>
> HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
>
> I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in any

way, shape or form to murder,

> rape, etc.
>
> I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have

concerns with.

Yes, and I recognize that. However, I think you also realize what your
original post reads like (or you do now). The qualifier is too little,
too late. You know the relationship between politics and perception,
and the perception of your post was negative because it seems to imply
that slash is on a par in terms of offensiveness with graphic torture.

So don't take my response as an accusation that you personally are a
bigot, Khazar--it's not. I've seen your work, I know you have a high
tolerance for things that squick others. What I'm saying is that your
post unintentionally "sends the message" (i.e., it implies) that slash
is comparably similar to rape or torture, and as such is deserving of
a warning. I know very well that wasn't your intention, but the
wording of your posting very clearly is open to misinterpretation of
the worst kind *because* the wording was so off-the-cuff careless.

> Perhaps a good compromise would be something like "Strong Sexual

Content (slash/het)" to help readers

> decide what they wish to read. Or a simple "Het/Slash" choice.

That would be fine by me, so long as it is clear that both het and
slash are subjected to a broader category which is objectionable to
some because of the intensity of the depiction. For some others, it
may be objectionable in addition because it is slash (or it is het),
but there's no need for that to be built into the official warning
system simply for lack of due caution and sensitivity to the fact that
slash is very polarizing and generates strong opinions and feelings in
both its proponents and detractors.

> It may disturb some people to know that not everyone shares their

tastes. But that's part of what makes the

> world so interesting.

"Some people" do have issues along those lines, I agree. And yes, the
world is an interesting, interesting... 'interesting'... place.

Peace,
Dwim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dwimmer_laik [mailto:dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 12:06 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
>

> > HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
> >
> > I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in any
> way, shape or form to murder,
> > rape, etc.
> >
> > I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have
> concerns with.
>
> Yes, and I recognize that. However, I think you also realize
> what your original post reads like (or you do now). The
> qualifier is too little, too late. You know the relationship
> between politics and perception, and the perception of your
> post was negative because it seems to imply that slash is on
> a par in terms of offensiveness with graphic torture.

I think we all need to step back and remember that this is the internet, a
faceless, expressionless medium. That means two things: We all have to be
more careful with what write . Our expressions don't show unless we use a
smiley. No one can hear our towno f voice. And generally people aren't
telepaths to know what we are thinking.

And we all need to be less judgmental in what we read. We shouldn't assume
expression. We shouldn't jump down someone's throught because of our
perception of their words. If we think there might have been offense, we
can seek clarification. We can discuss it until we can both understand each
other and how we feel about something.

And by all mean, if it gets ugly, we can take it off the list and into
private e-mail.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

I think we all need to step back and remember that this is the internet, a
faceless, expressionless medium. That means two things: We all have to be
more careful with what write . Our expressions don't show unless we use a
smiley. No one can hear our towno f voice. And generally people aren't
telepaths to know what we are thinking.

And we all need to be less judgmental in what we read. We shouldn't assume
expression. We shouldn't jump down someone's throught because of our
perception of their words. If we think there might have been offense, we
can seek clarification. We can discuss it until we can both understand each
other and how we feel about something.


Ainie, I am sorry to have created a problem for you. I thought I was being
helpful by listing the things which some people had expressed concerns with
in the past. Apparently that was not the case.

I certainly did not intend to drive anyone off this list, or to make anyone feel unwelcome. Especially
since I am hopeful that these awards will do well.

khazar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok, in the spirit of rational discussion, let's not let a little
misunderstanding stop us from doing what needs to be done. And that
is, or so I think, defining what slash is going to be for this list so
that we can be accurate when we say, "X is slash". I've proposed one
definition in a previous post. Are there other definitions that people
would like to propose?

In terms of evaluating the usefulness and fairness of such
definitions, there are two very basic questions to ask, or so it seems
to me:

1) Does this definition cover most instances of self-identified slash
(I don't mean "might be a tiny bit slashy", but "this is a slash story")?

2) Does this definition exclude most instances of stories which would
fly under most people's slash radars?

For my own definition, I think saying that slash is a story which
*focuses* on homosexuality in a central way would exclude things like
two minor characters who happen to be homosexual lovers if their
relationship was not the central focus of the story and had very
little to do with developing the story.

At the same time, it would include stories that did not have explicit
(or even implicit) consummation of the relationship, thereby allowing
PG slash stories or G slash stories, or even very heavy fics about a
character's sexual fantasies or obsessions. Obviously it would include
any fic in which a romantic relationship with a higher rating was the
focus, stopping only at NC-17 due to the previously accepted limit on
ratings.

And now for the hard ones:

Homosexual rape? Prison rape? It's a grey area under the definition
I've proposed, but if the homosexual element were not the focus of the
story (if it were just one outrage (given the character's own sexual
preferences) heaped atop another awful thing, or even if the rape were
just one awful thing among many happening to a character, which can be
the case if you're writing about the experience of a captive), it may
not be necessary to label the story slash. Labeling it "rape" would
suffice, since the aspect of forced sex overrides the fact that the
persons involved are of the same sex. We don't equate het fics with
rape, therefore why should we equate slash fics with rape? This would
be an instance of using the test criterion I had given in the previous
post on "Possibilities for dealing with the slash label".

Discussion? Ammendations? Questions? Clarification needed?
Reservations? Lay 'em out here.

Also, perhaps we could start thinking about drawing up some sort of
guideline sheet about this--listing definition, criteria for judging
whether something is slash or not, and a loose code of conduct for how
to handle fics that include homosexual elements but which are not
themselves slash fics. If we do this, it might be good to think in
terms of some official document both for this list but also for the
official MEFA site, so that general readers will know what we mean
when we say "slash".

In fact, perhaps for a couple of the more famously ambiguous and
difficult fandom terms, it would be a good idea to think of creating
just such a set of definitions, criteria, and conduct guidelines.

What do you all think? It'd probably spare us a lot of rehashing of
arguments down the line.

Before I end, something else that needs to be taken care of:

> > Yes, and I recognize that. However, I think you also realize
> > what your original post reads like (or you do now). The
> > qualifier is too little, too late. You know the relationship
> > between politics and perception, and the perception of your
> > post was negative because it seems to imply that slash is on
> > a par in terms of offensiveness with graphic torture.
>
> I think we all need to step back and remember that this is the

internet, a

> faceless, expressionless medium. That means two things: We all have

to be

> more careful with what write . Our expressions don't show unless we

use a

> smiley. No one can hear our towno f voice. And generally people aren't
> telepaths to know what we are thinking.

This is very true. I don't mean to be fractious or assume more than is
warranted, but we cannot wholly avoid assumptions. We can only react
to them and point them out. By all means, discuss my assumptions,
maybe this will help uncover more issues that were not adequately
addressed and which should be.

I do apologize to Khazar and also to all others if I escalated this
beyond what was warranted.

Back to our usual discussion,

Dwim

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

Thanks, Dwim, for those last few posts; you pretty much summed up my
personal thoughts on what constitutes slash.

> For my own definition, I think saying that slash is a story which
> *focuses* on homosexuality in a central way would exclude things

like

> two minor characters who happen to be homosexual lovers if their
> relationship was not the central focus of the story and had very
> little to do with developing the story.

That distinction seems an important one to clarify. I've observed it
to cause problems at non-slash archives that don't specify what they
mean by 'slash' - e.g. an author uploads an action/adventure story
that includes an incidental homosexual relationship, since that
doesn't constitute slash in their own minds, and then gets into a
dispute with readers and/or admins for whom such a story does fall
under slash.

In the context of the punctuation mark that spawned the term in the
first place, slash suggests to me a story focusing on two (or more)
characters that have been paired romantically by the author of the
fic (and, implied, not in the source material). That kind of
definition would exclude incidental mentions of homosexual
relationships, since such relationships don't involve recognized
characters being 'slashed'. It could also include heterosexual
relationships that the reader wouldn't expect based on the source
material.

Particularly re. that last point, I too like Andreth's suggestion of
listing important romantic pairings for each story. It puts the
emphasis on the individual characters rather than dividing into
slash and het, and the 'orientation' is still apparent for those who
prefer to avoid one type of romance story or another.

I imagine there are readers who still won't wish to read incidental
homosexual references, but it becomes impossible practically to warn
against all incidental refs in a story that may prove discomforting.
At some point, it has to be left to the person's own ability to
filter what they read.

Whether it's a good example I'm not sure, but I personally don't
like fiction that advocates capital punishment. If I read this
summary, 'A vignette that explains why Turgon was right to put Eol
to death', I'd steer clear of the story. If, however, there was a
lengthy Gondolin saga that included an approving treatment of Eol's
execution, I wouldn't expect that to be warned of in the summary -
it'd be part of the greater texture of the fic, and I'd stumble over
it in due course and say 'oh, bother'.

Looking at printed novels as a parallel: the blurb on a book tells
the browser what its central plot points are, and whether some sort
of romantic relationship is one of them. Beyond that, the blurb
isn't going to say something like 'oh, and the hero's next-door
neighbours are a gay couple' :) It's assumed that the reader can
take it from there. Thinking about it, the online fanfiction world
is already laden with safeguards that don't exist in the print
world - ratings (adopted confusingly from film), coded content
warnings, even declarations of being 'legal age to read X' (which
are legal nonsense)... the whole apparatus and the worry over it are
to some extent artificial anyway.

But I'm veering off the point ;)

> And now for the hard ones:
>
> Homosexual rape? Prison rape? It's a grey area under the definition
> I've proposed, but if the homosexual element were not the focus of

the

> story (if it were just one outrage (given the character's own

sexual

> preferences) heaped atop another awful thing, or even if the rape

were

> just one awful thing among many happening to a character, which

can be

> the case if you're writing about the experience of a captive), it

may

> not be necessary to label the story slash. Labeling it "rape" would
> suffice, since the aspect of forced sex overrides the fact that the
> persons involved are of the same sex.

I'd say that a rape fic could be called slash (similarly het) if the
rape came out of one character's sexual obsession for another, or
something of that kind... If it was just about torture and
degradation, then it wouldn't seem to qualify as slash. The key
might be the backstory and the quality of the emotions involved,
rather than the act itself.

Anyway, a poor £0.02.

Gemma

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dawn Martinez-Byrne [mailto:dlmbyrne@gte.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:53 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member

>
> Ainie, I am sorry to have created a problem for you. I
> thought I was being helpful by listing the things which some
> people had expressed concerns with in the past. Apparently
> that was not the case.

Thank you Khazar,t hough my post wasn't intending that you should have to
grovel. It was reminder to myself and everyone on the list. Sometimes we
make a careless remark. And sometimes we read more into someone else's words
than they intend.

>
> I certainly did not intend to drive anyone off this list, or
> to make anyone feel unwelcome. Especially since I am
> hopeful that these awards will do well.

Thank you. I'm sorry we had some unsubscribers, too. I still hope this
contest can be successful. I think it can. We just have to nail down some of
these finer points.

It's not an easy thing to make everyone happy. It's a fine line and often
extremely difficult to walk.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dwimmer_laik [mailto:dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:23 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Defining slash: let's not let the word stop us!
>
> Ok, in the spirit of rational discussion, let's not let a
> little misunderstanding stop us from doing what needs to be
> done. And that is, or so I think, defining what slash is
> going to be for this list so that we can be accurate when we
> say, "X is slash".

Agreed. Before we can say such-and-such needs to be labeled we have to know
what such-and-such is. We assumed we knew and it's apparently that many of
us feel differently about the definition. So we must come up with a
definition for here, as we did for NC-17.

>I've proposed one definition in a previous
> post. Are there other definitions that people would like to propose?
>
> In terms of evaluating the usefulness and fairness of such
> definitions, there are two very basic questions to ask, or so
> it seems to me:
>
> 1) Does this definition cover most instances of
> self-identified slash (I don't mean "might be a tiny bit
> slashy", but "this is a slash story")?
>
> 2) Does this definition exclude most instances of stories
> which would fly under most people's slash radars?

Two very good points. It's good to have a philosopher around at times. ;-)

> For my own definition, I think saying that slash is a story which
> *focuses* on homosexuality in a central way would exclude
> things like two minor characters who happen to be homosexual
> lovers if their relationship was not the central focus of the
> story and had very little to do with developing the story.

Agreed. And I think Gemma put it very well when she made the remark about
the hero's next door neighbors.

> At the same time, it would include stories that did not have
> explicit (or even implicit) consummation of the relationship,
> thereby allowing PG slash stories or G slash stories, or even
> very heavy fics about a character's sexual fantasies or
> obsessions. Obviously it would include any fic in which a
> romantic relationship with a higher rating was the focus,
> stopping only at NC-17 due to the previously accepted limit
> on ratings.

Okay, you lost me, but that could just be the stress talking. Let me read
it again.

So would the "slash" definition you purpose include or not include stories
about sexual fantasy or obsession? Or would it require implicit or explicit
consummation? That's where I got lost on the second reading.

> And now for the hard ones:
>
> Homosexual rape? Prison rape? It's a grey area under the
> definition I've proposed, but if the homosexual element were
> not the focus of the story (if it were just one outrage
> (given the character's own sexual
> preferences) heaped atop another awful thing, or even if the
> rape were just one awful thing among many happening to a
> character, which can be the case if you're writing about the
> experience of a captive), it may not be necessary to label
> the story slash. Labeling it "rape" would suffice, since the
> aspect of forced sex overrides the fact that the persons
> involved are of the same sex. We don't equate het fics with
> rape, therefore why should we equate slash fics with rape?
> This would be an instance of using the test criterion I had
> given in the previous post on "Possibilities for dealing with
> the slash label".

I think rape need not be called slash or het. Rape is generally not so much
about sex as violence and power. Rape is just the form of the violence. I
do not say that to belittle anyone's experience here. I, myself, was
assaulted with, I believe, that intention, though I was fortunate enugh to
get out of it alive and uninjured (but traumatized). I'm paraphrasing the
"experts" and to my mind I can see it. Rape is a form of violence. A
particularly degrading form because of the intimate violation. Therefore,
rape should be included in the Reasons for Rating field.

> Discussion? Ammendations? Questions? Clarification needed?
> Reservations? Lay 'em out here.
>
> Also, perhaps we could start thinking about drawing up some
> sort of guideline sheet about this--listing definition,
> criteria for judging whether something is slash or not, and a
> loose code of conduct for how to handle fics that include
> homosexual elements but which are not themselves slash fics.
> If we do this, it might be good to think in terms of some
> official document both for this list but also for the
> official MEFA site, so that general readers will know what we
> mean when we say "slash".

Agreed.

> In fact, perhaps for a couple of the more famously ambiguous
> and difficult fandom terms, it would be a good idea to think
> of creating just such a set of definitions, criteria, and
> conduct guidelines.

Ooh, like which ones? Really. Throw some out here.

> What do you all think? It'd probably spare us a lot of
> rehashing of arguments down the line.
>
> Before I end, something else that needs to be taken care of:

> > I think we all need to step back and remember that this is the
> internet, a
> > faceless, expressionless medium. That means two things: We all have
> to be
> > more careful with what write . Our expressions don't show unless we
> use a
> > smiley. No one can hear our towno f voice. And generally people
> > aren't telepaths to know what we are thinking.
>
> This is very true. I don't mean to be fractious or assume
> more than is warranted, but we cannot wholly avoid
> assumptions. We can only react to them and point them out. By
> all means, discuss my assumptions, maybe this will help
> uncover more issues that were not adequately addressed and
> which should be.
>
> I do apologize to Khazar and also to all others if I
> escalated this beyond what was warranted.

I'll thank you and say the same as I said to Khazar, that my post was a
reminder to us all. It's a double-edged sword. We can get cut from both the
writing and the reading.

And on a completely unrelated note, I want to thank you all for beearing
with my many typos. It seems to have become a much bigger problem of late,
thus I suspect it's a new stress-symptom. Goes along with my trouble
reading. My brain and my fingers rae not as well synchronized as before.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
<dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:

> > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common

areas

> > for concern.
> > >
> > > khazar
> >
> >
> > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men

kissing

> > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > tortured to death.
>
> Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape

and graphic

> violence sends the message that slash is on a par with

graphic

> violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the

slash

> label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
> however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
>
>
> HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
>
> I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in

any way, shape or form to murder,

> rape, etc.
>
> I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have

concerns with.

>

WHOA. Khazar, I was just commenting neutrally on that list as it
stood. I IN NO WAY meant to imply that I thought YOU believed
that slash should be equated with character death, graphic
violence and all that-- I should hope I know you better than that!

I did understand your meaning as stated above and I am VERY
sorry if I gave the impression I didn't.

best
Vulgarweed

Just a note on descriptive comments/warnings -

There are many things people may find not to their liking besides
slash or het. Many people do not like character death, some dislike
movie verse, some AUs - any label you put on a fic is going to make
some people want to read your fic and some not. What is the big
deal? It seems silly to resist labelling when the only result you
are likely to see is that more people who want to read your type of
fic will and those who wouldn't be keen on it won't.

Ariel
(who has always labeled her fics)


--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
<dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:

> > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> > for concern.
> > >
> > > khazar
> >
> >
> > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
> > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > tortured to death.
>
> Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape and

graphic

> violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
> violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the slash
> label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
> however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
>
>
> HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
>
> I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in

any way, shape or form to murder,

> rape, etc.
>
> I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have

concerns with.

>
> I have been an admin for the last 2 years with the Mithril Awards.

This list is based on the things which

> have been mentioned the most frequently as things which people who

asked to judge didn't want to see.

> That means we have had to keep these preferences in mind when

working with judges--assigning those

> who *will not* read het to slash, and so on.
>
> Perhaps a good compromise would be something like "Strong Sexual

Content (slash/het)" to help readers

> decide what they wish to read. Or a simple "Het/Slash" choice.
>
> It may disturb some people to know that not everyone shares their

tastes. But that's part of what makes the

> world so interesting. It would be a very dull world indeed if we

did not all enjoy different things. Not enjoying

> the same things does not automatically make someone evil, stupid,

prejudiced, sick, perverted, hateful or

> mean.
>
> Except me, of course, who is all of those things, and more. ;-)
>
> khazar
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Behind you all the way, Ariel --
that is EXACTLY what I meant. One should be proud of what one writes. :)

Coriel

----- Original Message -----
From: arielphf
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member


Just a note on descriptive comments/warnings -

There are many things people may find not to their liking besides
slash or het. Many people do not like character death, some dislike
movie verse, some AUs - any label you put on a fic is going to make
some people want to read your fic and some not. What is the big
deal? It seems silly to resist labelling when the only result you
are likely to see is that more people who want to read your type of
fic will and those who wouldn't be keen on it won't.

Ariel
(who has always labeled her fics)


--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
<dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:
> > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> > for concern.
> > >
> > > khazar
> >
> >
> > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
> > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > tortured to death.
>
> Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape and
graphic
> violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
> violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the slash
> label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
> however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
>
>
> HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
>
> I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in
any way, shape or form to murder,
> rape, etc.
>
> I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have
concerns with.
>
> I have been an admin for the last 2 years with the Mithril Awards.
This list is based on the things which
> have been mentioned the most frequently as things which people who
asked to judge didn't want to see.
> That means we have had to keep these preferences in mind when
working with judges--assigning those
> who *will not* read het to slash, and so on.
>
> Perhaps a good compromise would be something like "Strong Sexual
Content (slash/het)" to help readers
> decide what they wish to read. Or a simple "Het/Slash" choice.
>
> It may disturb some people to know that not everyone shares their
tastes. But that's part of what makes the
> world so interesting. It would be a very dull world indeed if we
did not all enjoy different things. Not enjoying
> the same things does not automatically make someone evil, stupid,
prejudiced, sick, perverted, hateful or
> mean.
>
> Except me, of course, who is all of those things, and more. ;-)
>
> khazar
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the topic now is not whether or not the fics will be labeled,
but how to go about labeling them in such a way that one group of
writers isn't going to feel singled out. And it's been a very
productive discussion so far.

Just my opinion, but this isn't any one person's or even one or two
person's fault. Ainae, thank you for apologizing, but I don't think
you were impatient and I don't think it was the cause of the
situation. These things just happen at one time or another in groups
with people of diverse personalities and tastes. Ultimately it's not
about whether or not these things happen, but how they're handled and
everyone's handled this remarkably well.

But back to the topic at hand - I do agree with the definitions of
slash that have been given. Basically if there is a same-sex romantic
or sexual relationship, then it's slash. And I do also agree that
listing the romantic pairings would be the most neutral way to
identify the slash stories. Then if someone sees a m/m or f/f pairing
in the column, they know it contains slash and can avoid it if
needed. Also it would prevent the slash writers from feeling singled
out, so it works for all parties involved.

Thank you, Ainae, for opening this discussion up again. It's very
considerate of you. And thank you, Dwim, for the many helpful
suggestions.


Anna

<dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:

> > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common

areas

> > for concern.
> > >
> > > khazar
> >
> >
> > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men

kissing

> > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > tortured to death.
>
> Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape

and graphic

> violence sends the message that slash is on a par with

graphic

> violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the

slash

> label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
> however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
>
>
> HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
>
> I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in

any way, shape or form to murder,

> rape, etc.
>
> I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have

concerns with.

>

WHOA. Khazar, I was just commenting neutrally on that list as it
stood. I IN NO WAY meant to imply that I thought YOU believed
that slash should be equated with character death, graphic
violence and all that-- I should hope I know you better than that!

Don't worry. I'm just sorry that some people quit instead of
hearing this out.

And now that I think about it, that *does* sound like a shopping list for a particularly
wild fic. "Let's see---OK, I got the Slash, and the Murder, and the Rape. Now, I
need some BDSM, Torture, and a nice chunk of Graphic Sex. What am I missing? Oh
yeah! Tomatoes!"

khazar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
<dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:

>> And now that I think about it, that *does* sound like a shopping

list for a particularly

> wild fic. "Let's see---OK, I got the Slash, and the Murder, and the

Rape. Now, I

> need some BDSM, Torture, and a nice chunk of Graphic Sex. What am I

missing? Oh

> yeah! Tomatoes!"
>
> khazar

Kids, this is your brain after watching poodle breedings and spending
large amounts of time with the walking dead. Any questions? :-D

Sorry, Khazar - I couldn't pass that one up. It was too tempting and
I'm weak willed. ;-D


Anna

Same deal here. Multiple post response and probably ample snippage.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arielphf [mailto:lgreenaw@kcnet.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:05 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
>
> Just a note on descriptive comments/warnings -
>
> There are many things people may find not to their liking
> besides slash or het. Many people do not like character
> death, some dislike movie verse, some AUs - any label you put
> on a fic is going to make some people want to read your fic
> and some not. What is the big deal? It seems silly to
> resist labelling when the only result you are likely to see
> is that more people who want to read your type of fic will
> and those who wouldn't be keen on it won't.
>
> Ariel
> (who has always labeled her fics)

Thank you. It's nice to hear from the middle after hearing the extremes.

Then Andreth wrote:

>I think the topic now is not whether or not the fics will be labeled, but

how to go about labeling them in such a way that one group of writers isn't
going to feel singled out. And it's been a very productive discussion so
far.

Yes, that is where it is. Our first task would appear to be coming up with
a definition of what constitutes slash. And it doesn't have to be in Jeff
Foxworthy syntax, though that is kind of fun, and might take some of the
tension out.

>Just my opinion, but this isn't any one person's or even one or two

person's fault. Ainae, thank you for apologizing, but I don't think you were
impatient and I don't think it was the cause of the situation. These things
just happen at one time or another in groups with people of diverse
personalities and tastes. Ultimately it's not about whether or not these
things happen, but how they're handled and everyone's handled this
remarkably well.

Thank you. That makes me feel better about the survival of this list.

>But back to the topic at hand - I do agree with the definitions of slash

that have been given. Basically if there is a same-sex romantic or sexual
relationship, then it's slash. And I do also agree that listing the romantic
pairings would be the most neutral way to identify the slash stories. Then
if someone sees a m/m or f/f pairing in the column, they know it contains
slash and can avoid it if needed. Also it would prevent the slash writers
from feeling singled out, so it works for all parties involved.

That seems to be a going-definition then. We've heard from ascenters. Are
there dessenters (I'm having trouble spelling. It's part of my
stress-symptoms, like having trouble reading and typos. I hope you can
understand what I'm getting at)? Someone with another definition?

>Thank you, Ainae, for opening this discussion up again. It's very

considerate of you. And thank you, Dwim, for the many helpful suggestions.

You're welcome. And yes, Dwim was very helpful in pulling this back around
to what it should have been in the first place.

And Khazar got silly:

>Don't worry. I'm just sorry that some people quit instead of hearing this

out.

Me, too.

>And now that I think about it, that *does* sound like a shopping list for a

particularly wild fic. "Let's see---OK, I got the Slash, and the Murder, and
the Rape. Now, I need some BDSM, Torture, and a nice chunk of Graphic Sex.
What am I missing? Oh yeah! Tomatoes!"

Snort! Unfortunately, I can't have a story with tomatoes in it. It's one of
my Crohn's Disease trigger foods. Upsets the digestive system, you know.

And flowers! No flowers. Pollen gives me headaches.

And Andreth joined the fun:

>Kids, this is your brain after watching poodle breedings and spending large

amounts of time with the walking dead. Any questions? :-D

Hmmm...I think I'm glad I was busy that night.

>Sorry, Khazar - I couldn't pass that one up. It was too tempting and I'm

weak willed. ;-D

Thank you both for giving us a chuckle after all this tension.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "coriel_elfwyn" <coriel_elfwyn@o...>
wrote:

> Behind you all the way, Ariel --
> that is EXACTLY what I meant. One should be proud of what one

writes. :)

Smiley face= ok, not meant offensively. All right, then. This post,
too, is not meant to be offensive nor to fan to life a heated debate.
I mean this with all due respect.

Normally, I'd say yes, easier to shame your name than for your name to
shame you. But no one who has objected to the *way* in which the slash
label could be used to imply discrimination[1] has objected on the
basis that s/he is not proud of his or her work if it is called
"slash". That is an assumption you are right now imputing to many of
us. It is certainly nowhere stated in any posting I've read prior to
this that a slash writer who refuses the label or even just dislikes
the label is thereby not proud of his or her work. Indeed, the one
truly violent rejection of the label was done precisely because the
author is very proud of her work and dislikes associating it with what
she personally considers a substandard genre (she, in other words,
accepts that most anti-slash folks are right to say slash is
substandard smutty drivel--hence, she will not associate her stories,
which involve homosexuality in an integral way, with such a label).

It was not slash writers but you who equated rejecting a label *I
didn't invent* (I say "I" and "me" here because I don't want to speak
for others) and which, Coriel, you personally say with manifest
distaste, with not having pride in my work as a writer who writes the
occasional slash story. I ask you: is that a good argument? Or is
that purely ad hominem? I think it's the latter, and as such adds
nothing to this debate.

I know you didn't mean that the way it sounded. I know Ariel didn't
either, but please don't tell me that I'm suffering from lack of pride
proper to a craftsperson just because I don't have great feelings
about the label. You don't know me, you don't know my work (and you
won't know at leasat some of my work), and you don't know that I take
a great deal of pride in holding *slash* to a high standard of
excellence. In fact, I think for me, I hold it to a higher standard,
because it is subtext and by its nature, it requires a much stronger
'argument' to be convincing.

I'm saying all this by way of providing material to reflect upon. I'm
not saying it to pick on you specifically, but I ask you and any
others who hold that view to please contribute something a little more
constructive to the debate than that slash writers should grow some
pride in accepting a label you personally find offensive and
disgusting. Particularly when I can say, with confidence, that slash
writers, whether or not they reject the label, do take great pride in
their work. We take an (if you like) inordinate amount of pride in our
work.

Thank you,

Dwim

[1] I qualify the mention of discrimination by saying that no one
except one person has yet said MEFAs were discriminatory, but that
MEFAs just needed to think carefully about how to use that slash label
and not use it carelessly.

!(@*$&*(@^!#@!

This is what happens when you are feeling the burn that says "Brain
has officially turned off for the night"!

I said:

> I know you didn't mean that the way it sounded. I know Ariel didn't
> either,

Ariel, apologies, I didn't mean that the way it sounded. The reason I
don't think you could've meant that slash writers should be proud of
their work and not reject the label is because I don't see you taking
that position in your posting. Yours seems a purely economical
rationale: if it tells the audience you are writing for to read your
fic, why not do it? While that may make an assumption about who slash
writers are writing for, it certainly doesn't imply anything about
rejection of a label as meaning a lack of pride in the work itself.

Dwim



--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "coriel_elfwyn" <coriel_elfwyn@o...>
wrote:

> Behind you all the way, Ariel --
> that is EXACTLY what I meant. One should be proud of what one

writes. :)

>
> Coriel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: arielphf
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:04 PM
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
>
>
> Just a note on descriptive comments/warnings -
>
> There are many things people may find not to their liking besides
> slash or het. Many people do not like character death, some dislike
> movie verse, some AUs - any label you put on a fic is going to make
> some people want to read your fic and some not. What is the big
> deal? It seems silly to resist labelling when the only result you
> are likely to see is that more people who want to read your type of
> fic will and those who wouldn't be keen on it won't.
>
> Ariel
> (who has always labeled her fics)
>
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
> <dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:
> > > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> > > for concern.
> > > >
> > > > khazar
> > >
> > >
> > > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men kissing
> > > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > > tortured to death.
> >
> > Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape and
> graphic
> > violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
> > violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the slash
> > label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I don't,
> > however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
> >
> >
> > HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
> >
> > I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal in
> any way, shape or form to murder,
> > rape, etc.
> >
> > I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually have
> concerns with.
> >
> > I have been an admin for the last 2 years with the Mithril Awards.
> This list is based on the things which
> > have been mentioned the most frequently as things which people who
> asked to judge didn't want to see.
> > That means we have had to keep these preferences in mind when
> working with judges--assigning those
> > who *will not* read het to slash, and so on.
> >
> > Perhaps a good compromise would be something like "Strong Sexual
> Content (slash/het)" to help readers
> > decide what they wish to read. Or a simple "Het/Slash" choice.
> >
> > It may disturb some people to know that not everyone shares their
> tastes. But that's part of what makes the
> > world so interesting. It would be a very dull world indeed if we
> did not all enjoy different things. Not enjoying
> > the same things does not automatically make someone evil, stupid,
> prejudiced, sick, perverted, hateful or
> > mean.
> >
> > Except me, of course, who is all of those things, and more. ;-)
> >
> > khazar
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, please don't worry, I wasn't offended or anything. I was just
making a comment on one post before I'd read to the end of the
messages. No biggie. I also didn't mean to imply that I didn't
think you were proud of your work. Coriel made that extrapolation
and, like you, I didn't think that was your issue.

I did want to perhaps counter one assumption that seems to have been
made; that of thinking that most people equate the `slash' label with
smut or substandard work. I can assure you that I have never seen
the label of `slash' or of `het' as inferring anything on the quality
of the fic. In fact, though it may be entirely my perception, I've
often found the exact opposite of the presented concern to be true -
that slash is more respected than het and is read much more readily
(if hit counters are any indication).

I label my fics because I know a lot of people don't like the genres
I write in and I'd rather have the few folks who do like them read
them than risk inadvertently offending someone who doesn't. It's
more important to me that people enjoy themselves while reading my
fics even if it means fewer people see them.

Besides, I get the same `pay' regardless of the numbers <vbg>.

Ariel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>
wrote:

> !(@*$&*(@^!#@!
>
> This is what happens when you are feeling the burn that says "Brain
> has officially turned off for the night"!
>
> I said:
>
> > I know you didn't mean that the way it sounded. I know Ariel

didn't

> > either,
>
>
> Ariel, apologies, I didn't mean that the way it sounded. The reason

I

> don't think you could've meant that slash writers should be proud of
> their work and not reject the label is because I don't see you

taking

> that position in your posting. Yours seems a purely economical
> rationale: if it tells the audience you are writing for to read your
> fic, why not do it? While that may make an assumption about who

slash

> writers are writing for, it certainly doesn't imply anything about
> rejection of a label as meaning a lack of pride in the work itself.
>
> Dwim
>
>
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "coriel_elfwyn"

<coriel_elfwyn@o...>

> wrote:
> > Behind you all the way, Ariel --
> > that is EXACTLY what I meant. One should be proud of what one
> writes. :)
> >
> > Coriel
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: arielphf
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:04 PM
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
> >
> >
> > Just a note on descriptive comments/warnings -
> >
> > There are many things people may find not to their liking

besides

> > slash or het. Many people do not like character death, some

dislike

> > movie verse, some AUs - any label you put on a fic is going to

make

> > some people want to read your fic and some not. What is the

big

> > deal? It seems silly to resist labelling when the only result

you

> > are likely to see is that more people who want to read your

type of

> > fic will and those who wouldn't be keen on it won't.
> >
> > Ariel
> > (who has always labeled her fics)
> >
> >
> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Martinez-Byrne"
> > <dlmbyrne@g...> wrote:
> > > > > The Warnings could be something like: Slash/ Graphic
> > > > Violence/ Graphic Sex/ Rape/
> > > > > BDSM/Character Death. Those seem to be the common areas
> > > > for concern.
> > > > >
> > > > > khazar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hm. You know, when you list 'em like that, it looks pretty
> > > > perverse, doesn't it--like seeing, oh the horror, two men

kissing

> > > > is in any way analagous to, say, seeing a beloved character
> > > > tortured to death.
> > >
> > > Agreed. Putting slash in the same category as graphic rape

and

> > graphic
> > > violence sends the message that slash is on a par with graphic
> > > violence and rape, and I say that as someone who accepts the

slash

> > > label for any story focusing on a same-sex relationship (I

don't,

> > > however, accept it for stories which merely mention such).
> > >
> > >
> > > HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.
> > >
> > > I am not saying that Slash is evil, perverse, wrong, or equal

in

> > any way, shape or form to murder,
> > > rape, etc.
> > >
> > > I *am* saying that these are the areas that people usually

have

> > concerns with.
> > >
> > > I have been an admin for the last 2 years with the Mithril

Awards.

> > This list is based on the things which
> > > have been mentioned the most frequently as things which

people who

> > asked to judge didn't want to see.
> > > That means we have had to keep these preferences in mind

when

> > working with judges--assigning those
> > > who *will not* read het to slash, and so on.
> > >
> > > Perhaps a good compromise would be something like "Strong

Sexual

> > Content (slash/het)" to help readers
> > > decide what they wish to read. Or a simple "Het/Slash" choice.
> > >
> > > It may disturb some people to know that not everyone shares

their

> > tastes. But that's part of what makes the
> > > world so interesting. It would be a very dull world indeed if

we

> > did not all enjoy different things. Not enjoying
> > > the same things does not automatically make someone evil,

stupid,

> > prejudiced, sick, perverted, hateful or
> > > mean.
> > >
> > > Except me, of course, who is all of those things, and more. ;-

)

> > >
> > > khazar
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEFAwards/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > MEFAwards-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms

of

> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Again, sorry about that. I'm just going to be quiet now.

Coriel

----- Original Message -----
From: arielphf
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Apologies to Ariel for the dumb association I made


Oh, please don't worry, I wasn't offended or anything. I was just
making a comment on one post before I'd read to the end of the
messages. No biggie. I also didn't mean to imply that I didn't
think you were proud of your work. Coriel made that extrapolation
and, like you, I didn't think that was your issue.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just a suggestion. You could have an extra page in front of slash
stories with a detailed warning. The same could be done for NC-17
stories. So when readers click on the story link they get a clear
warning about the story being slash or NC-17 and if you make it so
that they actually have to read the warning to get to the actual
story you pretty much cover yourself from flamers flaming you about
how the warning wasn't clear enough. -Tinni

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:

>
> We've had a member request that the nominations show whether they

are slash

> or not so that people who want to avoid them can and those who want

to read

> them can as well.
>
> The question is how to do it. I do know that I have been noting

Slash in the

> subcategory sugggestion field when the nomination was clear to me

that I it

> is slash, but that doesn't show up on the web site or the

Nominations table.

> I could add a field to the Nominations table, but we might need the

help of

> everyone to check that table over and say what is slash and what

isn't.

>
> I do plan that when Nomination Season is over, there will be a much

more

> detailed list of nominations on the web site, something even nom-

member

> authors can check to see that their story is categoriezed and rated

as they

> would want. That would aslo serve readers for readign season to go

find the

> stories to read.
>
> Given that we can start reading at anytime (even now), a notice

about slash

> is a good idea for now. I don't want slash writers or readers to

feel put

> upon, but I think it's fair warning just as warning that a story is

a WIP or

> graphically violent.
>
> That said, the Slash notice could go with the Reasons for Rating

field, with

> the graphic sex or violence warnings. And I do hope all

nominations are

> being noted for any of those things so sensitive readers can beware.
>
> So how best to do this now, since people are already reading (or

could be)?

> Instead of adding a Slash column to the Nominations table, I could

just make

> it a Warnings column and graphic violence, etc, could be noted

there as

> well.
>
> Please chime in, but let's not get into a "Slash is evil"

argument. The MEF

> Awards accept both, individual readers are free to do so or not to

do so.

>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>
> "This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond

said, "for

> it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.
>
> http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
> Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@fanfiction.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:53 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
>
> Just a suggestion. You could have an extra page in front of
> slash stories with a detailed warning. The same could be done
> for NC-17 stories. So when readers click on the story link
> they get a clear warning about the story being slash or NC-17
> and if you make it so that they actually have to read the
> warning to get to the actual story you pretty much cover
> yourself from flamers flaming you about how the warning
> wasn't clear enough. -Tinni

Firstly, there are no NC-17s in the contest. They're not eligible.

Secondly, to do that would be perceived as "ghettoizing" or singling out
slash. There are plenty of other things that squick people. We'd have to do
that for each of them.

No, I'm going to go with Romance Pairings. I'll try to get that post
written up this evening.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

>
> Firstly, there are no NC-17s in the contest. They're not eligible.

Sorry, I guess I missed that bit when reading the FAQ.

>
> Secondly, to do that would be perceived as "ghettoizing" or

singling out

> slash. There are plenty of other things that squick people. We'd

have to do

> that for each of them.

True enough.

>
> No, I'm going to go with Romance Pairings. I'll try to get that

post

> written up this evening.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel
>

First, introductions: I'm female, 40. I write a little - with and
without sex between same-gender, opposite-gender and/or
different-species pairings. I read a lot - my only "not at all" is
Real People fic (RPS); I usually avoid Hobbit sex and am not big on
BDSM and abuse fics, etc. but can happily click back out of what I
don't like with no harm done to me. I try to review often, but should
do more. And because it's possibly relevant to some folks' assessment
of my comments, I will add that I'm in an unwed, monogamous, long-term
heterosexual partnership, and I am looking forward to attending the
wedding of my gay neighbors this autumn.

Topic-specific truth-and-disclosure statement: Soledad is a close
friend and Dwimordene and I correspond privately. They are the two
writers whose work first drew me into the Tolkfic realm, for which
they have my hearty thanks!

Now, on to comments. I've just spent severak hours reading through all
the posts so far - RL has kept me offlist up to now - so I'll try to
pick up where things are at this point without rehashing much.

Topic #1: pride in one's work and rejection of the slash label

One poster - forgive me for not making a note of whom to credit -
mentioned being an author of realistic OFCs and dreading the Mary-Sue
label. That comment offers a useful way to approach the matter of
adopting a slash label for our ratings because it takes the
controversial sex and same-gender aspects off the table for a minute.
(More obligatory disclosure: I'm writing a M-S myself as a parody and
a creative challenge. I call it a Sue - no one is assigning the label
against my wishes.)

Why should a writer object to his/her story being labelled a Mary-Sue?

1) The M-S label assigns a story to a category that is, in the eyes of
some fanfic readers, a very large pile of muck. Who wants to have
their work associated with a manure pile?

2) The M-S label often carries implications of inferior writing,
characterization, creativity and/or storytelling ability: a Sue is
"just a self-insertion," "publication of a private fantasy,"
"self-indulgent drivel," etc. Who wants to have their craftwork
maligned by such a label?

3) Some people in the fanfic audience do not want to ever encounter
anything that even vaguely smacks of Mary-Sue, so some readers will
not read anything labelled M-S. Writers post in hopes of finding
readers, so what writer would want their stories slapped with a label
that will cause people to turn away without so much as glancing at the
story itself? (Of course, some readers actively seek out Mary-Sue and
her kin - but we must ask if that's the audience the writer hoped to
reach?)

Now, let's walk through this model again, substituting slash for M-S:

Why should a writer object his/her story being labelled as slash?

1) The slash label assigns a story to a category that is, in the eyes
of some fanfic readers, a very large pile of muck. Who wants to have
their work associated with a manure pile?

2) The slash label often carries implications of inferior writing,
characterization, creativity and/or storytelling ability: slash is
"just an excuse for a sex scene," "simple 'Plot? What plot?' (PWP)
fic" "publication of a private fantasy," "self-indulgent drivel," etc.
Who wants to have their craftwork maligned by such a label?

3) Some people in the fanfic audience do not want to ever encounter
anything that even vaguely smacks of slash, so some readers will not
read anything labelled slash. Writers post in hopes of finding
readers, so what writer would want their stories slapped with a label
that will cause people to turn away without so much as glancing at the
story itself? (Of course, some readers actively seek out slash - but
we must ask if that's the audience the writer hoped to reach?)

So, there are good reasons for authors to not want their stories
labelled "slash." Some authors don't mind; others mind very much.
Which leads to...

Topic #2 - How do we help readers avoid stories whose content they
would find distasteful, disturbing or otherwise objectionable without
offending the authors who allow their stories to be nominated?

Returning to the Sue example, some people really don't like Mary-Sues.
There are reams of anti-Mary-Sue postings on the Net. Entire websites
are devoted to mocking Mary-Sues. Some folks really feel very strongly
about not wanting to ever encounter a Mary-Sue while reading fanfic
and won't go near anything that hints at having an original female or
male character (OFC or OMC, or just OC).

Are we going to slap every story that has OFC and/or OMC with the
label "Mary-Sue," just in case some readers might be disturbed by
encountering something they perceive to be a Mary-Sue? I hope not.

But sex is different, right? Yes and no. I accept the need for labels
for sexual content in general (G, PG-13, R, BDSM, rape), as described
in other posts. It's an imperfect, but widely used practice and will
help readers make better choices for themselves. And I am willing to
include some ratings and comments to help folks avoid some common
dislikes.

But I feel strongly that it's wrong to single out certain sexual
pairings for warnings while leaving others marked. If protecting
readers' sensibilities is our reason for posting ratings and such,
then putting a special label only on stories with same-gender sex
content is just plain hypocritical. I know several folks who make it
known loudly and clearly that they categorically do not want to see
opposite-gender sex (het) or who want only male/male or only
female/female sex (both of which are technically "slash," although
some folks use "femslash" to distinguish the latter pairing). They are
as adamant about it as are the no-slash crowd.

So, if our goal is to help readers avoid what might offend them, we
have to specify the genders of all parties to all sexual acts.

So, we need at a minimum not only G, PG, etc. but also het, slash
(m/m) and slash (f/f/).

What about species? I really don't care to read Hobbit sex, for
example. Now, me? I can just hit the Back button and go on with life,
but what if someone is really bothered by seeing an account of the
god-like Valar having sex? A rating of "R het" isn't going to save
them from bumping into Manwë and Varda rolling in the Valinorian hay.

So, now we're up to rating stories for kind/amount of sex and the
gender and species of each and every partner of every pairing in a story.

Wait a minute: only pairs? What about threesomes, another popular
subgenre from what I've seen? Will we have a "multiples" rating?

And just what is a pairing? Recent posts have been trying to tease
that out, but I'm not clear if resolution has been reached. Does a
passing mention of two folks being in a couple require notation? Some
postings seem to suggest this is desirable, but I think labelling what
are only passing references or incidental characters is too much
detail. Which brings me to...

Topic #3 - Why are we focussing so much on pairings (or other combos)?
I'm thinking of my currently WIP Mary-Sue parody (which is not up for
nomination, BTW) as an example. When it's finished, it likely will
have at least a dozen sexual encounters, het and slash, intra- and
inter-species, possibly more than two beings at a time in one or two
cases. But the sex isn't the point or focus of the story -- on the
surface, it's an epic tale about an OFC's adventures in ME and
underneath, it's a parody of as many of Mary-Sue clichés as I can
find. To have author, title, summary and then a big, honking list of
pairings makes it look like the whole thing is one big sequence of sex
scenes, and even I, who am writing this thing as a lark, don't care to
give that impression to potential readers.

Do we really need to go through every story and list by name every
pair (or more) of characters whose interaction might possibly be
construed as having sexual under/overtones, regardless of whether
those relationships have any significant bearing on the story? That is
just too much caution, IMHO, and it still won't protect readers
(including me) who can't always judge the gender by a character's name.

Most of all, I worry this level of categorization risks shifting our
focus from regarding each story as a whole, vibrant creative work to
seeing only a dissected thing whose separate bits we analyze and sort
for fear we will be contaminated by consuming the thing whole. Imagine
what the nomination of Tolkien's own works would look like....

My final thought, more than five hours after I began reading the posts:

People who read anything they didn't write themselves will at some
point encounter things that make them uncomfortable. (Some of us have
even had that experience with our *own* writing... <grin>) And that is
both the dark and the light side of reading things on the Internet, or
the newspaper, or the public library shelves. We come across things
we'd never otherwise encounter, and we are sometimes appalled. Yet,
sometimes a new and wonderful world opens up for us. That's how I came
to Tolkien fanfic.

Writers are allowing their stories to be nominated in the hopes of
being read and perhaps receiving some feedback. Any label that
mistakenly drives readers away from a story goes against the heart of
what makes this awards system so wonderful.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
Jenn
Tolk Anon M-S

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jenn [mailto:tolkanonms@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 12:07 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Pride and the slash label + some
> comments on ratings
>
> First, introductions: I'm female, 40. I write a little - with
> and without sex between same-gender, opposite-gender and/or
> different-species pairings. I read a lot - my only "not at
> all" is Real People fic (RPS); I usually avoid Hobbit sex and
> am not big on BDSM and abuse fics, etc. but can happily click
> back out of what I don't like with no harm done to me. I try
> to review often, but should do more. And because it's
> possibly relevant to some folks' assessment of my comments, I
> will add that I'm in an unwed, monogamous, long-term
> heterosexual partnership, and I am looking forward to
> attending the wedding of my gay neighbors this autumn.

Hi and welcome to the list.

> Topic-specific truth-and-disclosure statement: Soledad is a
> close friend and Dwimordene and I correspond privately. They
> are the two writers whose work first drew me into the Tolkfic
> realm, for which they have my hearty thanks!

I know Soledad from some other lists. Dwim and I share a Fanfiction
Facilitation Communication when we can both spare the time.

> Now, on to comments. I've just spent severak hours reading
> through all the posts so far - RL has kept me offlist up to
> now - so I'll try to pick up where things are at this point
> without rehashing much.

You've picked up where things were. Not where they are. You're rehashing old
news and therefore likely to fan flames that have been put out.

Which is why I've snipped most of your post. I've read it. Don't worry. And
I think you go overboard. I will repeat this here until my fingers fall
off: I can't please everyone. And I'm not going to try. I am trying to be
fair and unoffensive. But this is getting a bit out of hand. The longer
your post went on, the more and more we'd have to spell out until the
headers for stories were longer than the stories themselves.

My point is that it's already done. If you'd read all the posts, you'd see
that. Are you not getting all of them? Yesterday, we had a blow-out. After
the blow-out we had substantial, purposeful, civil discussion. And through
that discussion the decisions have been reached. And in several posts today
I've already said how we were going to handle this.

So this is it folks: For the MEFAs, slash will be handled in this way:

I will post, probably tomorrow, the definition of "That which needs to be
identified". That means het or non-het, species-or-whatever, in
whatever-combination-you-can-think-of.

Once it is defined, it will then need to be identified for each nomination
that meets that definition. It will be identified through a very simple,
non-offensive device: romance pairings (and let's not get technical over the
number). We call them romance codes in Star Trek anyway because we use
codes for the characters so we don't have to type as much. I've seen it
used on ff.net for LOTR fic, too: A/L, for instance, or A/A.

It will be this simple. If your story or the one you are nominating meets
the definition of "that which needs to be identified", you will need to fill
out the Romance Pairings field on the nomination form with the information
on the couples (or triplets or whatevers) in the story. That way if a
reader sees Aragorn/Arwen or Aragorn/Legolas they can know right away what
they are getting into. No "slash" label, no scarlet letters.

> Writers are allowing their stories to be nominated in the
> hopes of being read and perhaps receiving some feedback. Any
> label that mistakenly drives readers away from a story goes
> against the heart of what makes this awards system so wonderful.

See above.

> Respectfully submitted for your consideration, Jenn Tolk Anon M-S

Thank you for doing so civily. It's just that this has already been hashed
out. The "required" 24 hours have passed and the discussion died down
already. If I hadn't had a headache tonight (darn allergies) I'd be writing
that post one "what needs to be identified" and the Executive Decision would
already be set out.

Look for the Executive Decision tomorrow. It's a done deal.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Hello, Ainaechoiriel. I think you are right to be concerned over
ghettoizing categories with detailed warnings. The point of most warning
labels is to exclude, and I have seen it taken to extreme lengths. Why
not have the author use an author note at the very beginning of the
story? It would state the story involves same sex pairings between canon
characters, otherwise known as "slash pairings."

The reader would click on the story, see the author note, and the
function is accomplished. Regards - Chathol-linn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@fanfiction.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:53 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
>
> Just a suggestion. You could have an extra page in front of
> slash stories with a detailed warning.

Ainaechoiriel:
Secondly, to do that would be perceived as "ghettoizing" or singling out
slash. There are plenty of other things that squick people. We'd have to
do
that for each of them.

No, I'm going to go with Romance Pairings. I'll try to get that post
written up this evening.

--Ainaechoiriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Chathol-linn" <chathollinn@c...>
wrote:

> Hello, Ainaechoiriel. I think you are right to be concerned over
> ghettoizing categories with detailed warnings. The point of most

warning

> labels is to exclude, and I have seen it taken to extreme lengths.

Why

> not have the author use an author note at the very beginning of the
> story? It would state the story involves same sex pairings between

canon

> characters, otherwise known as "slash pairings."
>
> The reader would click on the story, see the author note, and the
> function is accomplished. Regards - Chathol-linn
>

The potential problem with that is a lot of readers don't read
Author's notes. I know I don't. Specially not author notes in the
beginning. -Tinni

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:53 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
> >
> > Just a suggestion. You could have an extra page in front of
> > slash stories with a detailed warning.
>
>
> Ainaechoiriel:
> Secondly, to do that would be perceived as "ghettoizing" or

singling out

> slash. There are plenty of other things that squick people. We'd

have to

> do
> that for each of them.
>
> No, I'm going to go with Romance Pairings. I'll try to get that

post

> written up this evening.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Jenn" <tolkanonms@y...> wrote:

>
> Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
> Jenn
> Tolk Anon M-S

Jenn, I used the OFC example, apparently not very clearly since you
cited my comment and then used it in the opposite way. I'd like to
clear up any confusion and be specifically clear on that issue.

I label my fics in the character list and summary with:

Maedhros/OFC,

OFC, Orcs, no canon characters,

OFC/Elladan&Elrohir.

I don't see the point in mislabeling, or underlabeling a fic as if
the reader won't click off when they realize. I know I lose a lot of
readers because of it, because they assume Marysue and won't even
click to read the first couple paragraphs. But, OTOH, those that do
click the first chapter generally read all three fics in their
entirety, all 100k words. -so I think I must be doing something right
as far as appealing to an audience that will appreciate my fics.

Hopefully, this is less ambiguous than my previous statement
regarding labeling.

If I understand correct, Ainae will post a statement today about how
fics are to be labeled and we can move on to fresh fires.

"sulriel" <Sulriel@h...> wrote:

> Jenn, I used the OFC example, apparently not very clearly since you
> cited my comment and then used it in the opposite way. I'd like to
> clear up any confusion and be specifically clear on that issue.

Yes, I misunderstood your feelings about the OFC label. Thanks for
clarifying. I've heard others express frustration with the Sue
assumptions some folks jump to, and misread your remarks as being
along the same lines.

I think it's both honest and brave of you to go ahead and make clear
that you have OFCs, knowing some folks will just dismiss you and your
work. Good luck with your writing - I'll try to get out and find some
(and review) soon!

Jenn

"Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...> wrote:

> You've picked up where things were. Not where they are. You're

rehashing old news and therefore likely to fan flames that have been
put out.

First, please let me offer my apologies. I did not intend to aggravate
things, but to try to help move the discussion forward toward solutions.

And for the record, I didn't see anything I would consider to be a
"blow-out." I actually thought folks were pretty civil throughout the
discussion, despite the sensitive issue. That is a tribute to all the
members participating and to your leadership of the group.

> I can't please everyone.

Of course not.

> And I'm not going to try.

Wise indeed!

> I am trying to be fair and unoffensive.

Understood and appreciated - your efforts have been very apparent as I
read through your posts.

> But this is getting a bit out of hand. The longer your post went

on, the more and more we'd have to spell out until the headers for
stories were longer than the stories themselves.

Yes. That's what I was getting at - sensitivity is good, but there
comes a point where it can paralyze.

Perhaps yet another disclosure statement is in order. (I sound like
I'm applying for a grant here: conflicts of interest, etc.) I code
text for a living. Not fanfiction, but texts of interviews with real,
live people after their diagnosis and treatment for a certain type of
cancer. I make my living trying to mark the rich content of these
people's personal stories using an array of codes that will allow us
to retrieve and analyze all similar comments from more than 150
interviews stored in a computer.

In short, I spend a lot of time thinking about what it means to label
human experience, thought and emotion as expressed in words, about how
the wrong choice of coding can misrepresent profoundly what someone
was trying to say when they gave us their stories.

And that is why I put so much thought into the question of codes and
ratings for story content. Labelling others' words is a heavy
responsibility, I know - it's what I do every day. Here, at least,
it's only fiction, not the truth of someone's life, but some of the
issues are similar. I figured I could contribute by applying some of
the analytical and ethical thinking I use at work to the question at
hand, illustrating some of the quandries that arise, and sharing the
conclusion I must live with in my work: there is no perfect answer. We
are bound and obligated to do the very best we can, mindfully and with
great respect for those who've shared their words with us. But there
is no perfect.

Clearly, my efforts were not helpful to you and/or the group. I regret
that - a waste of my time and yours. But I hope this post at least
make my intentions clear: I had no desire to fan anything resembling
flames.

> My point is that it's already done. If you'd read all the posts,

you'd see that. <snip> And in several posts today I've already said
how we were going to handle this.

Ahem. Respectfully, yes, I read through every post that was not
nomination-related that was available to me last night in the Eastern
Daylight Time Zone, from the very first one mentioning the issue to
Message #830. I read something in excess of 500 posts. All the way
through. In one night. Before even beginning to write my own post.

Message #831, in which you do declare the decision to be Romance
Pairings, wasn't up when I posted after 1am Eastern Daylight Time, so
I did not see your note at the bottom saying you had decided to use
pairings. I did not see any post declaring the discussion closed.

But not because I did a casual, drive-by glance-and-post. In fact, I
spent my entire night on this topic. I stayed up past 1am and am going
in to to work more than an hour late this morning in an earnest effort
to post responsibly and thoughtfully. I failed last night. Hopefully,
I've done better this morning.

Perhaps it's best if you just delete my first post and this one, too,
if it is also inflammatory or will draw attention to an inflammatory
or non-existent post. Or if you are uncomfortable with that role, just
drop me a note offlist to delete one/both and/or my membership, and I
will honor your wishes when I get home tonight.

> If I hadn't had a headache tonight (darn allergies).

Ouch! So sorry. We've had a rough week of it out here in New England,
too. Darned tree pollen! I love trees, but right now, forget the
Elves, give me loratadine....

> Look for the Executive Decision tomorrow. It's a done deal.

Will do and understood. Again, if you want my post(s) and/or my
presence gone for the good of the group, feel free. It's why the
Delete and Ban function exist. I'm not looking to make trouble.

Jenn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jenn [mailto:tolkanonms@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 8:38 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] My sincere apologies - delete post/me if you wish
>
> "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...> wrote:
>
> First, please let me offer my apologies. I did not intend to
> aggravate things, but to try to help move the discussion
> forward toward solutions.

No biggie.

> And for the record, I didn't see anything I would consider to
> be a "blow-out." I actually thought folks were pretty civil
> throughout the discussion, despite the sensitive issue. That
> is a tribute to all the members participating and to your
> leadership of the group.

Thank you. But what constitues a "blow out" is a subjective judgement and
it's obvious that we don't all share the same view aboutwhat a "blow out"
is.

> > I am trying to be fair and unoffensive.
>
> Understood and appreciated - your efforts have been very
> apparent as I read through your posts.
>
> > But this is getting a bit out of hand. The longer your post went
> on, the more and more we'd have to spell out until the
> headers for stories were longer than the stories themselves.

> Yes. That's what I was getting at - sensitivity is good, but
> there comes a point where it can paralyze.

Oh, good. I thought you were tyring to undermine showing any information at
all. I'm glad I misunderstood. Or rather, I'm glad I understand correctly
now.

> Perhaps yet another disclosure statement is in order. (I
> sound like I'm applying for a grant here: conflicts of
> interest, etc.) I code text for a living. Not fanfiction, but
> texts of interviews with real, live people after their
> diagnosis and treatment for a certain type of cancer. I make
> my living trying to mark the rich content of these people's
> personal stories using an array of codes that will allow us
> to retrieve and analyze all similar comments from more than
> 150 interviews stored in a computer.
>
> In short, I spend a lot of time thinking about what it means
> to label human experience, thought and emotion as expressed
> in words, about how the wrong choice of coding can
> misrepresent profoundly what someone was trying to say when
> they gave us their stories.

Understandable, esxpecially in a language as flexible as English. If you
look up "angst": you get a definition that deals with only one emotion:
Fear. I'll bet within five years that definition will change to one dealing
with a more generalomotional overload of some sort.

> And that is why I put so much thought into the question of
> codes and ratings for story content. Labelling others' words
> is a heavy responsibility, I know - it's what I do every day.
> Here, at least, it's only fiction, not the truth of someone's
> life, but some of the issues are similar. I figured I could
> contribute by applying some of the analytical and ethical
> thinking I use at work to the question at hand, illustrating
> some of the quandries that arise, and sharing the conclusion
> I must live with in my work: there is no perfect answer. We
> are bound and obligated to do the very best we can, mindfully
> and with great respect for those who've shared their words
> with us. But there is no perfect.
>
> Clearly, my efforts were not helpful to you and/or the group.
> I regret that - a waste of my time and yours. But I hope this
> post at least make my intentions clear: I had no desire to
> fan anything resembling flames.

They do and thank you. As to your subject line. I'm no censor. I'm not
going to delete your post or you. I think we just got off on bad footing.

> Ahem. Respectfully, yes, I read through every post that was
> not nomination-related that was available to me last night in
> the Eastern Daylight Time Zone, from the very first one
> mentioning the issue to Message #830. I read something in
> excess of 500 posts. All the way through. In one night.
> Before even beginning to write my own post.
>
> Message #831, in which you do declare the decision to be
> Romance Pairings, wasn't up when I posted after 1am Eastern
> Daylight Time, so I did not see your note at the bottom
> saying you had decided to use pairings. I did not see any
> post declaring the discussion closed.

Hmm..Were you reading on the site or in your inbox? Yahoo does sometimes
delay.

> But not because I did a casual, drive-by glance-and-post. In
> fact, I spent my entire night on this topic. I stayed up past
> 1am and am going in to to work more than an hour late this
> morning in an earnest effort to post responsibly and
> thoughtfully. I failed last night. Hopefully, I've done
> better this morning.

Apparently, I've had a 1 am gaffe, too, in my decision to put a Warnings
field in the Nominations table, which sparked the fire.

> Perhaps it's best if you just delete my first post and this
> one, too, if it is also inflammatory or will draw attention
> to an inflammatory or non-existent post. Or if you are
> uncomfortable with that role, just drop me a note offlist to
> delete one/both and/or my membership, and I will honor your
> wishes when I get home tonight.

That's not necessary and no, I don't feel this post is inflammatory in any
way.

> Ouch! So sorry. We've had a rough week of it out here in New
> England, too. Darned tree pollen! I love trees, but right
> now, forget the Elves, give me loratadine....

Actually, that's almost where I gained those allergies. I got them when I
lived in Arlington, VA. Sinus headaches are my only symptom, but man, they
can shut my brain down.

> Will do and understood. Again, if you want my post(s) and/or
> my presence gone for the good of the group, feel free. It's
> why the Delete and Ban function exist. I'm not looking to
> make trouble.

No need. Glad to have you in the group. I'll post that Executive Decision
shortly. I'm reading about those prisoner abuses in Iraq right now and
that's rather taken over my mind at the moment.

Oh, and there's that little thing about being at work. ;-)

I did get the Mission and Charter document out yesterday, so that's one part
done.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "arielphf" <lgreenaw@k...> wrote:

> Oh, please don't worry, I wasn't offended or anything. I was just
> making a comment on one post before I'd read to the end of the
> messages. No biggie.

Thanks. One day, I will learn that concision has its dangers...

I also didn't mean to imply that I didn't

> think you were proud of your work. Coriel made that extrapolation
> and, like you, I didn't think that was your issue.
>
> I did want to perhaps counter one assumption that seems to have been
> made; that of thinking that most people equate the `slash' label with
> smut or substandard work. I can assure you that I have never seen
> the label of `slash' or of `het' as inferring anything on the quality
> of the fic.

I think we must run in different circles, since I've seen it assumed
in the most unlikely places. But such is the internet, ne?

Dwim

Fair enough, and an author's note in the beginning is as much warning as
a reasonable person need give. If it is known that cautions might appear
in the beginning author's notes, and the reader elects to ignore them,
then they've assumed the "risk." Not that I think that reading something
unsettling is all that risky. Best Regards - Chathol-linn

-----Original Message-----
From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@fanfiction.net]
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 7:58 AM
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Chathol-linn" <chathollinn@c...>
wrote:

> Hello, Ainaechoiriel. I think you are right to be concerned over
> ghettoizing categories with detailed warnings. The point of most

warning

> labels is to exclude, and I have seen it taken to extreme lengths.

Why

> not have the author use an author note at the very beginning of the
> story? It would state the story involves same sex pairings between

canon

> characters, otherwise known as "slash pairings."
>
> The reader would click on the story, see the author note, and the
> function is accomplished. Regards - Chathol-linn
>

The potential problem with that is a lot of readers don't read
Author's notes. I know I don't. Specially not author notes in the
beginning. -Tinni

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tinni [mailto:tinni@f...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:53 PM
> > To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Slash notice request from a member
> >
> > Just a suggestion. You could have an extra page in front of
> > slash stories with a detailed warning.
>
>
> Ainaechoiriel:
> Secondly, to do that would be perceived as "ghettoizing" or

singling out

> slash. There are plenty of other things that squick people. We'd

have to

> do
> that for each of them.
>
> No, I'm going to go with Romance Pairings. I'll try to get that

post

> written up this evening.
>
> --Ainaechoiriel

Yahoo! Groups Links

I'll try to keep it short - not my forté, I admit!

"Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...> wrote:

> Thank you. But what constitues a "blow out" is a subjective

judgement and it's obvious that we don't all share the same view about
what a "blow out" is.

You'll understand my lack of enthusiasm for parsing another definition
just now? <big grin>

> > Yes. That's what I was getting at - sensitivity is good, but
> > there comes a point where it can paralyze.
>
> Oh, good. I thought you were tyring to undermine showing any

information at all. I'm glad I misunderstood. Or rather, I'm glad I
understand correctly now.

Me, too. You don't know me, so you wouldn't realize that posting to
undermine folks is not my style, so I won't take offense.

> As to your subject line. I'm no censor. I'm not going to delete your

post or you. I think we just got off on bad footing.

I didn't mean to imply censorship on your part. I was just doing my
best to make amends to you and the group. Unlike some folks <rolling
my eyes toward Arlington - you'll know to which five-sided facility I
refer), I take responsibility for what I say and do. I was willing to
remove my post and myself if I had transgressed against the group. It
was an offer, not an assumption that you would want to do it.

> Were you reading on the site or in your inbox? Yahoo does sometimes

delay.

Yes. I follow all my groups online only. I don't need the mailbox
clutter, plus I prefer to sit down and read in batches so it's more
like reading a conversation.

> Apparently, I've had a 1 am gaffe, too, in my decision to put a

Warnings field in the Nominations table, which sparked the fire.

Ah well. Live and learn, eh?

re: allergies and Arlington

> Actually, that's almost where I gained those allergies. I got them

when I lived in Arlington, VA.

I used to live around there, too. Metro DC is an area famous for
triggering allergies in folks who've never had them before.
Apparently, the area is a convergence point for a number of air
currents that bring pollen from all over the continent. (And yes, this
is medical reporting I heard, not a political commentary about hot air
rising and creating a vacuum into which pollen-laden air rushes.
Although that would be funny, now I think of it.) Wishing you quick
riddance of the sinus headaches - yuck.

Jenn

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik" <dwimmer_laik@y...>

> I think we must run in different circles, since I've seen it assumed
> in the most unlikely places. But such is the internet, ne?
>
> Dwim

Must be... because that is most certainly not my experience.

The best solution would be a situation where no genre was prejudiced
OR reverse-prejudiced against. There are good fics in every genre;
even ones that some people claim are all crap. 'All'. LOL!
There've been genres I wasn't interested in, but I'd never say
something so categorical unless I had reviewed the entire genre, and
who's likely to do that for a type of fic they aren't into?

Ah, no matter. I merely wanted to let you know that that is not an
attitude that everyone shares, and that in some circles, the exact
opposite is true - and it's not the ideal situation either.

Ariel

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jenn [mailto:tolkanonms@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 9:20 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: My sincere apologies
>
> I'll try to keep it short - not my forté, I admit!

;-) I have been accused to be "wordy" now and then.

> You'll understand my lack of enthusiasm for parsing another
> definition just now? <big grin>

If I could understand what you just said. :-S It's the GigaStress. I can't
always understand what I read (or what I write--I'm not sure my first
sentence above made any sense) anymore. Very annoying.

> I didn't mean to imply censorship on your part. I was just
> doing my best to make amends to you and the group. Unlike
> some folks <rolling my eyes toward Arlington - you'll know to
> which five-sided facility I refer), I take responsibility for
> what I say and do. I was willing to remove my post and myself
> if I had transgressed against the group. It was an offer, not
> an assumption that you would want to do it.

No problem.

> Yes. I follow all my groups online only. I don't need the
> mailbox clutter, plus I prefer to sit down and read in
> batches so it's more like reading a conversation.

I have a gazillion subfolders to sort my mail. Most of it's done by Rules so
I don't get my inbox too clutterd. Now, my Henneth-Annun folder, well, it
has 1263 unread messages right now. My MEFA folder has 665 items, all read,
and two subfolders (Authors and Nominations).

> Ah well. Live and learn, eh?

Yep.

> I used to live around there, too. Metro DC is an area famous
> for triggering allergies in folks who've never had them before.
> Apparently, the area is a convergence point for a number of
> air currents that bring pollen from all over the continent.

Is that what caused it? It wasn't until Easter one spring that I finally
figured out why I was getting headaches: Sanctuary: flowers: headache.
Fellowship hall: no flowers: no headache.

Aha! Pollen. And then I went to Orlando and got to add mildew to the list.
The boat ride in Ft. Lauderdale nearly killed me. This, of course, is why
I'm now afraid to go to Florida.

> (And yes, this is medical reporting I heard, not a political
> commentary about hot air rising and creating a vacuum into
> which pollen-laden air rushes.
> Although that would be funny, now I think of it.)

;-) Yep.

>Wishing you
> quick riddance of the sinus headaches - yuck.

Ah well, they come and they go pretty much all year long (gotta be another
trigger somewhere for fall and winter). I keep a good stock of Tylenol Sinus
and a gel pack in the freezer at all times.

But thanks anyway!

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com