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List of possibilities, starting with the obvious question...

A) What is slash?

*Personally*, I would say slash is a story *focusing* on same sex
relationships, whether or not the relationship is consummated.
Homosexuality per se doth not a slash story make, any more than the
fact that a story set in the Fourth Age, when Aragorn and Arwen are
married, is thereby a romance story just because we mention that yes,
they are married and are having kids.

Suggested test of whether a story should be labeled slash, if the
above definition were adopted:

If you were to change the sexual orientations of all the characters to
heterosexuality, and you wouldn't rate the story a romance or warn of
graphic sex or warn of mature sexual themes (which can include things
like sexual obsession without consummation or intense anxiety over
sex/sexuality), then it probably doesn't deserve to labeled as slash
just because one or two characters on the sidelines are homosexual.
Likewise, if the main characters are written as homosexual, but this
fact does not play a central role in the story, then I suggest that
this does not qualify as slash.

If the above were accepted, then if you were to come across
homosexuality in a fic that isn't rated slash, then the solution is
just to click back if it bothers you enough. Otherwise, ignore them
and read on. The warnings section should tell you whether you'll be
offended by graphic sex scenes of whatever orientation in chapter
three. No fuss, no bother.

B) So if we can tell what slash is, how do we denote it? Do we denote it?

Generally speaking, most slash writers do tell their readers that
their stories are slash stories. It's a compromise we are more or less
willing to accept, though of course, some are far less willing to
accept it and some far more.

I'm willing to accept it, although I would NOT accept it if slash were
to be a warning on a par with graphic torture and rape. If it's the
graphic nature of these acts which warrant the warning, then "graphic
sex" covers slash and het, and there's no need to distinguish further.
If it's the squick factor, well, I would still argue that framing
slash as on a par with rape and torture is *quite* inappropriate and
bespeaks a fundamental homophobia that would be grounds for
withdrawing from this contest.

But let's say we do think some sort of indication of whether a story
is slash or not is a good idea without sticking it in with the warning
section. Here are some ways to go about it, drawing on previous posts
and presenting them here for easy consideration:

1) Include it in the summary. Many authors already do this. If you see
"slash" in the summary, don't drop it from the summary description.

2) Include it, as Vulgarweed suggested, in "reasons for rating". If
this were adopted, I would qualify it somewhat. Obviously, a G-rated
slash story is going to be hard pressed to say "I rated this G because
it is slash." That just doesn't seem to make sense, since G is like a
baseline of non-offensiveness and the whole deal about slash is that
some people find it offensive for whatever reason. Maybe have
something like an "Intended Audience" statement. That might make more
sense. "This fic is aimed at those who are not offended by
homosexuality." "This fic is aimed at those who are willing to read a
story with some slash elements."

3) Include it, as I think it was Andreth suggested, in the pairings
listing: all pairings that matter to the story's unfolding should be
declared. If the object d'amour is an OC, then label it something like
Halbarad/OMC, or Ioreth/OFC. People will get the picture. In this
case, the "pairings" notation would be appropriate for any category,
not just romance. Key point: all pairings that *matter* to the story's
unfolding; if it's incidental or mere mention, no need to identify it.

4) Divide romance into het and slash. The problem here is that that
would effectively ghettoize slash and prevent stories focusing on
homosexual couples or homosexuality per se competing in other
categories which do not traditionally separate themselves according to
who sleeps with whom (or who would be willing to sleep with whom).
Even if this were adopted, I think some other method of identification
would be required in addition so that stories could compete in
multiple categories while still compromising with those who will not
read slash.

If any of these suggestions help, take 'em. If not, ignore them

Dwim

First, thank you, Dwim, for offering a civil discussion on this.

From reading this and all the other posts on this, I think the trigger that
started the war was nothing more than symantics. A word. And the
assumptions as to what I might have meant by that word.

I do not like being punished for someone's assumptions. If I need to be
punished, it had better darn well be for fact. Not assumption.

Okay, ther's my rant. Back to civility.

What was the word? Slash? No. Sex? No. Homosexualtity? No, because I never
even used it. It was "warnings". I did not mean it to be mean spirited. I
did not mean by including the list of things to make it seem derogatory. In
fact, I specifically stated that this group and the awards accepts it. I
just listed things that squick people. I was trying to NOT single out slash,
NOT ghettoize slash. I was *trying* to do the opposite by not singling it
out.

Moreover, I only used "warnings" as a column heading in a table. I did not
change the Nominiation form, and suggested nominators to include such things
in Reasons for Ratings. To that end, until we come up with something
better, I've changed the column header to "Squicks".

On to Dwim's post.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dwimmer_laik [mailto:dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:31 AM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Possible ways of handling the slash label
>
> List of possibilities, starting with the obvious question...
>
> A) What is slash?
>
> *Personally*, I would say slash is a story *focusing* on same
> sex relationships, whether or not the relationship is consummated.
> Homosexuality per se doth not a slash story make, any more
> than the fact that a story set in the Fourth Age, when
> Aragorn and Arwen are married, is thereby a romance story
> just because we mention that yes, they are married and are
> having kids.

I would agree with this. I don't think Sam taking Frodo's hand in Rivendell
in the movie was "slash". Either watcher could interpret that either way.
Now, if Frodo and Sam were to have sex, I'd call that slash.

> Suggested test of whether a story should be labeled slash, if
> the above definition were adopted:
>
> If you were to change the sexual orientations of all the
> characters to heterosexuality, and you wouldn't rate the
> story a romance or warn of graphic sex or warn of mature
> sexual themes (which can include things like sexual obsession
> without consummation or intense anxiety over sex/sexuality),
> then it probably doesn't deserve to labeled as slash just
> because one or two characters on the sidelines are homosexual.

Agreed

> Likewise, if the main characters are written as homosexual,
> but this fact does not play a central role in the story, then
> I suggest that this does not qualify as slash.

Agree there as well. My cousin is gay. If I were to write a nonfiction
story about the time my cousin and I went to the prom, this would not be
slash just because my cousin is gay. (It was a very nice prom, no pressure.
And not because he was gay. We didn't even know that then. But because he
was my cousin.)

> If the above were accepted, then if you were to come across
> homosexuality in a fic that isn't rated slash, then the
> solution is just to click back if it bothers you enough.
> Otherwise, ignore them and read on. The warnings section
> should tell you whether you'll be offended by graphic sex
> scenes of whatever orientation in chapter three. No fuss, no bother.

Agreed.

> B) So if we can tell what slash is, how do we denote it? Do
> we denote it?

I believe I asked this as part of my call for discussion.

> Generally speaking, most slash writers do tell their readers
> that their stories are slash stories. It's a compromise we
> are more or less willing to accept, though of course, some
> are far less willing to accept it and some far more.

I think that's fair. I warn about violence in mine. Same reason.

> I'm willing to accept it, although I would NOT accept it if
> slash were to be a warning on a par with graphic torture and
> rape. If it's the graphic nature of these acts which warrant
> the warning, then "graphic sex" covers slash and het, and
> there's no need to distinguish further.

This is where discussion would have been good. I was not "equating" slash
with smut or graphic torture or any of that except that they are all
squickable. Could I be convinced to leave the word slash out so long as
everyone understands that if there is sex in the story (by whichever couple
or group) it needs to be noted, graphic or not? Yes. I am a reasonable
person.

> If it's the squick factor, well, I would still argue that
> framing slash as on a par with rape and torture is *quite*
> inappropriate and bespeaks a fundamental homophobia that
> would be grounds for withdrawing from this contest.

You would be assuming as well. I didn't rank the squicks. I didn't say Slash
is the worst and then next is graphic sex and then torture is way down on
the list. I just named squicks. Plain and simple.

> But let's say we do think some sort of indication of whether
> a story is slash or not is a good idea without sticking it in
> with the warning section.

Hence my conclusion tht this whole thing blew up over a column header. The
column header has already been changed. The nomination form, the offial
piece of this whole puzzle, never changed. Neither, I might mention, did
the web site, which presently only lists category, two subcatetgories (WIP
and Poetry), title and author.

> Here are some ways to go about it,
> drawing on previous posts and presenting them here for easy
> consideration:
>
> 1) Include it in the summary. Many authors already do this.
> If you see "slash" in the summary, don't drop it from the
> summary description.

I copy and paste summaries almost word for word. I would expect that other
categorizers did the same. That is on the official spreadsheet. I did
shorted summaries on the table for awhile because I didn't mean for the
table to include the whole summary so much as just to differentiate stories
with like titles, such as Chance Meetings and Promises to Keep (there are
two of each). Other categorizers didn't' shorten and so I just gave up on
it rather than make an issue.

> 2) Include it, as Vulgarweed suggested, in "reasons for
> rating". If this were adopted, I would qualify it somewhat.

I originally suggested that as well. And that is where I asked nominators
to put it.

> Obviously, a G-rated slash story is going to be hard pressed
> to say "I rated this G because it is slash." That just
> doesn't seem to make sense, since G is like a baseline of
> non-offensiveness and the whole deal about slash is that some
> people find it offensive for whatever reason.

Obviously. And I suppose I did a little assumption as well, thinking that
everyone would agree that that was obvious and that a G rated story that
just happened to have homosexual characters would not need a slash warning
at all. It was 1 in the morning when I made that post and didn't feel like
being wordy. My bad. Yes, I figured it would most likely be for PG-13s and
R's and less likely for PG (though possible, I suppose) and not at all for
G.

> Maybe have
> something like an "Intended Audience" statement. That might
> make more sense. "This fic is aimed at those who are not
> offended by homosexuality." "This fic is aimed at those who
> are willing to read a story with some slash elements."

While the thought is good, it's a bit too wordy to put in the Nomination
form and the table has already grown too wide because of long URLs. You
have to scroll from one side to the other to see the title and then see if
it's a WIP. If I have to grow that table any, I want it to be short.

> 3) Include it, as I think it was Andreth suggested, in the pairings
> listing: all pairings that matter to the story's unfolding
> should be declared. If the object d'amour is an OC, then
> label it something like Halbarad/OMC, or Ioreth/OFC. People
> will get the picture. In this case, the "pairings" notation
> would be appropriate for any category, not just romance. Key
> point: all pairings that *matter* to the story's unfolding;
> if it's incidental or mere mention, no need to identify it.

Also acceptable. And that could certainly be changed on the Nomination form.

> 4) Divide romance into het and slash. The problem here is
> that that would effectively ghettoize slash and prevent
> stories focusing on homosexual couples or homosexuality per
> se competing in other categories which do not traditionally
> separate themselves according to who sleeps with whom (or who
> would be willing to sleep with whom).
> Even if this were adopted, I think some other method of
> identification would be required in addition so that stories
> could compete in multiple categories while still compromising
> with those who will not read slash.

First, I'll stick with one category per story. As to subcategorizing, I had
thought of it as a possibility, just as it's possible to separate long
stories from short, something that has been suggested twice here, but that
kind of doesn't sit right with me.

I don't, however, consider a subcategory to be ghettoizing anything anymore
than it ghettoizes poems. It doesn't ghettoise Romance, something I don't
read in any form, to be in a separate category. That said, I do know that
slash readers and writers are very wary of being "ghettoized" and so I
stayed away from that altogether.

> If any of these suggestions help, take 'em. If not, ignore them

They were helpful, thank you, Dwim

The floor is once again open for CIVIL discussion.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

Per the post defining NC-17 (#503) for purposes of
this contest, *no* stories containing graphic sex
(i.e., mentioning genitalia) should be nominated for
this contest.

So we're only talking about warnings for implied or
extremely vague het and/or gay sex here.

viv

--- Ainaechoiriel <mefaadmin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Could I be convinced to leave the word
> slash out so long as
> everyone understands that if there is sex in the
> story (by whichever couple
> or group) it needs to be noted, graphic or not?

=====
Spacellama Palace: http://spacellama.net




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First, I wanted to say that other than semantics, part of the problem
might have been that there wasn't ample time given to discuss the
subject. The rule concerning the slash warnings was posted about nine
hours after the original post and I didn't have the opportunity
yesterday afternoon to read over all the posts, so didn't see it
until this morning.

Perhaps it would be helpful to give at least 24 hours for a topic to
be discussed? To allow for a healthy assortment of opinions and
suggestions to be offered before a new rule is implemented? That way
everyone in the different time zones has the opportunity to respond
and hopefully can help avoid any future misunderstandings.

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Ainaechoiriel" <mefaadmin@e...>
wrote:> You would be assuming as well. I didn't rank the squicks. I
didn't say Slash> is the worst and then next is graphic sex and then
torture is way down on> the list. I just named squicks. Plain and
simple.

*******It might be even better to say graphic het sex or graphic
slash sex instead of just 'slash'. That would help avoid the usual
connotation that slash=smut, because it is just the slash sex we're
referring to here, right?

> > 1) Include it in the summary. Many authors already do this.
> > If you see "slash" in the summary, don't drop it from the
> > summary description.
>
> I copy and paste summaries almost word for word. I would expect

that other> categorizers did the same.

********I do keep the full summary on my spreadsheet but put a
shorter summary in the database. Including a slash notation in the
summary would definitely be the easiest and least intrusive way to
go, or putting graphic het/graphic slash sex in the warnings column
when appropriate.


Anna


Oh, and a PS -

> As to subcategorizing, I had thought of it as a possibility, just
>as it's possible to separate long stories from short, something that
>has been suggested twice here, but that kind of doesn't sit right
>with me.

So I don't forget again - I don't think I worded my suggestion
clearly enough to make sense. I wasn't suggesting that the stories be
subcategorized or separated according to length - I have a story
nominated that's a long story and so I definitely don't want to put
people off reading longer stories. What I meant was giving some type
of indication in the summary as to the length of the stories, i.e.
one chapter stories = vignette, 2-4 chapters=short story, 5+
chapters=multi-chaptered story. Or something along those lines.
Hopefully that suggestion made a little more sense that my first
try.

>

(*Ok, first, I am being civil. I am not condemning or censoring anything right now. Tone is calm, collected, friendly, no offense given or taken.*)

I for one am in favor of something along the lines of the "Intended Audience" indication. I do not read slash, I will not like it, so I merely want to avoid stumbling onto it at unawares. That has happened before, and it is not a comfortable memory.

I believe this all falls under truth in advertising. I will freely wear whatever labels others wish to stick on me so long as they reflect the content of my writing. I am fully aware that not all slash is smut, and I can understand how the more mild authors would resent the smutty connotations carried by the word. But that is where the G - R rating should clarify things. Nothing smutty can be rated G. Still, there are some of us who would like to tactfully avoid it no matter what the rating, and would appreciate the means to do so.

With that said, I am sitting down again. I naturally assumed such indications would have been a matter of course, and was rather disturbed to hear most of it was still indistinguishable from the rest. I know there are those of you who have no issue with this, but this young reader would like to be able to extend her selected reading without being burned.

Thanks,

Coriel

----- Original Message -----
From: Ainaechoiriel
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: [MEFAwards] Possible ways of handling the slash label


The floor is once again open for CIVIL discussion.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I believe this all falls under truth in advertising. I will freely

wear whatever labels others wish to stick on me so long as they
reflect the content of my writing. I am fully aware that not all
slash is smut, and I can understand how the more mild authors would
resent the smutty connotations carried by the word. But that is where
the G - R rating should clarify things. Nothing smutty can be rated
G. Still, there are some of us who would like to tactfully avoid it
no matter what the rating, and would appreciate the means to do so.

>

What about the pairings suggestion by Andreth (I think it was)? In
this case, any pairing that was significant to the unfolding of the
fic would be listed, whether or not the fic was primarily a romance.
If the slash relationship really mattered to a major plot point, it
would be listed. If it didn't, if it was an incidental, "Oh yeah,
them, well, you know they're lovers, right? Well, anyhow, don't put
them in the same command unit--bad idea", it wouldn't be listed. If
such offended, as soon as the reader saw that homosexuality was
referenced, the reader would just skip ahead. As noted, no fuss, no
bother.

It's like reading torture in a fic--some people are just too good at
writing it and I start getting nauseated, so I skip ahead. I know it's
there, I appreciate that it's a part of the story, but it isn't so
integral that I need to read it for the rest of the story to make sense.

However, if you prefer the Intended Audiences idea, then perhaps you
could offer some refinements. I kind of threw that out there on the
fly, since I was more inclined to go with Vulgarweed's suggestion,
despite having my reservations. It wasn't a particularly well
thought-out idea, and how to implement it in a uniform manner would
still need to be discussed.

Dwim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Viv [mailto:spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 12:51 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Clarification of "graphic" [was:
> Possible ways of handling the slash label]
>
> Per the post defining NC-17 (#503) for purposes of this
> contest, *no* stories containing graphic sex (i.e.,
> mentioning genitalia) should be nominated for this contest.
>
> So we're only talking about warnings for implied or extremely
> vague het and/or gay sex here.

True, though the post does say "might" a lot. (I've now put that file on the
website and uploaded it to the files section as well.) Really graphic stuff
would be NC-17 and therefore ineligible. So for our purposes here we are
really talking about PG-13's and R's and perhaps some PG's.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

I meant we need something *more* subtle.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dwimmer_laik [mailto:dwimmer_laik@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:32 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Possible ways of handling the slash label

> However, if you prefer the Intended Audiences idea, then
> perhaps you could offer some refinements. I kind of threw
> that out there on the fly, since I was more inclined to go
> with Vulgarweed's suggestion, despite having my reservations.
> It wasn't a particularly well thought-out idea, and how to
> implement it in a uniform manner would still need to be discussed.

I really don't like the Intended Audiences idea. Too clunky. We need
something less subtle and definitely less wordy.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

(Ok, I'm back. Mom has right of way on the computer, you know. ;)

Anyway, I know it *is* hard to categorize all this in a way that will please everyone. But I do have one humble little suggestion.

Even an on-the-side slash remark could ruin a story for me; I am a product of my upbringing. Still, I don't advocate starting a whole new category here, which seems an insane amount of extra work. For those stories that contain slash that is not central to the story and does not merit the slash label in the opinion of this list, might not the author insert a short and general (temporary) disclaimer in the story itself for the benefit of the MEFA? Say, at the head of chapter 1, if the site allows such micro-editing. Those who don't mind will read on, while others can back out with clear consciences.

For instance, on a whim I once wrote an Elves-in-modern-America fic in which Thranduil & family were practicing Roman Catholics. It was not central to the story in any way, but I knew it might bother some people, so I told them up front what to expect in a short blurb heading the first chapter. It was better than giving them a surprise later.

If this is not feasible, I would recommend at least a *caveat emptor* for the website itself if there is by-the-way slash not labeled as such. Some might appreciate it.
(Forgive me if there is already; I haven't checked back lately.)

Coriel

----- Original Message -----
From: dwimmer_laik
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 3:31 PM
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Possible ways of handling the slash label



> I believe this all falls under truth in advertising. I will freely
wear whatever labels others wish to stick on me so long as they
reflect the content of my writing. I am fully aware that not all
slash is smut, and I can understand how the more mild authors would
resent the smutty connotations carried by the word. But that is where
the G - R rating should clarify things. Nothing smutty can be rated
G. Still, there are some of us who would like to tactfully avoid it
no matter what the rating, and would appreciate the means to do so.
>


What about the pairings suggestion by Andreth (I think it was)? In
this case, any pairing that was significant to the unfolding of the
fic would be listed, whether or not the fic was primarily a romance.
If the slash relationship really mattered to a major plot point, it
would be listed. If it didn't, if it was an incidental, "Oh yeah,
them, well, you know they're lovers, right? Well, anyhow, don't put
them in the same command unit--bad idea", it wouldn't be listed. If
such offended, as soon as the reader saw that homosexuality was
referenced, the reader would just skip ahead. As noted, no fuss, no
bother.

It's like reading torture in a fic--some people are just too good at
writing it and I start getting nauseated, so I skip ahead. I know it's
there, I appreciate that it's a part of the story, but it isn't so
integral that I need to read it for the rest of the story to make sense.

However, if you prefer the Intended Audiences idea, then perhaps you
could offer some refinements. I kind of threw that out there on the
fly, since I was more inclined to go with Vulgarweed's suggestion,
despite having my reservations. It wasn't a particularly well
thought-out idea, and how to implement it in a uniform manner would
still need to be discussed.

Dwim


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First, to lay my cards on the table, I rarely read slash and have never
written it -- but this is not because I am offended by or opposed to
slash. I've just come across some very bad slash pieces that ignore the
impact an openly homosexual relationship might have in a pre-modern
society. I have, however, nominated three pieces that I consider
outstanding pieces with homosexual elements (Dwim's "From the Other
River Bank" and Anglachel's "Legacy" and "On Merry Yule").

So I don't object to some sort of "warning" (or whatever we want to call
it), but that's more because I think people should be warned beforehand
on exactly what they're reading, so they can make the best use of their
reading time. If a significant number of people request a certain
"warning," then I say we should consider giving it to them -- and this
doesn't (in my mind) reflect poorly on the story or what was being
warned against.

Now on to Ainae's and Dwim's comments.

>First, thank you, Dwim, for offering a civil discussion on this.

Seconded.

<snip>

>>List of possibilities, starting with the obvious question...

>>A) What is slash?

>>*Personally*, I would say slash is a story *focusing* on same
>>sex relationships, whether or not the relationship is consummated.
>>Homosexuality per se doth not a slash story make, any more
>>than the fact that a story set in the Fourth Age, when
>>Aragorn and Arwen are married, is thereby a romance story
>>just because we mention that yes, they are married and are
>>having kids.

I agree. Same-sex relationships mentioned in the periphery don't make a
story slash. But I have to ask -- given we're dealing with cultures
where same-sex relationships wouldn't be as socially acceptable, why is
the relationship being mentioned? I suppose Elrond could be struggling
with Celebrian's leaving Middle-earth and Glorfindel could comfort him
with tales of his own long-term separation from Celeborn, or some such
thing. I suppose I just find mentioning of same-sex relationships on the
periphery a bit odd, but then (like I said) I don't read much of the stuff.

>I would agree with this. I don't think Sam taking Frodo's hand in

Rivendell

>in the movie was "slash". Either watcher could interpret that either way.
>Now, if Frodo and Sam were to have sex, I'd call that slash.

But I think it's possible to have a slash story where sex isn't even an
element. Where they are clearly romantic but without sex actually
occurring (implied or otherwise). I do agree that this is different from
sexually ambiguous gestures like Sam's taking Frodo's hand in Rivendell.
That's not clearly slash, but it could be, depending on what the author
did with it (for example, what Sam or Frodo were thinking during that
scene).

>>Suggested test of whether a story should be labeled slash, if
>>the above definition were adopted:

>>If you were to change the sexual orientations of all the
>>characters to heterosexuality, and you wouldn't rate the
>>story a romance or warn of graphic sex or warn of mature
>>sexual themes (which can include things like sexual obsession
>>without consummation or intense anxiety over sex/sexuality),
>>then it probably doesn't deserve to labeled as slash just
>>because one or two characters on the sidelines are homosexual.

>Agreed

Seconded.

>>Likewise, if the main characters are written as homosexual,
>>but this fact does not play a central role in the story, then
>>I suggest that this does not qualify as slash.

Agreed -- but if we go with this, I think we need to make it clear onthe
website or whatever exactly what we mean by a slash story.

>Agree there as well. My cousin is gay. If I were to write a nonfiction
>story about the time my cousin and I went to the prom, this would not be
>slash just because my cousin is gay. (It was a very nice prom, no

pressure.

>And not because he was gay. We didn't even know that then. But because he
>was my cousin.)

I agree here as well -- a story between two heterosexuals of opposite
gender isnt' necessarily het, why should slash be defined differently?

>>If the above were accepted, then if you were to come across
>>homosexuality in a fic that isn't rated slash, then the
>>solution is just to click back if it bothers you enough.
>>Otherwise, ignore them and read on. The warnings section
>>should tell you whether you'll be offended by graphic sex
>>scenes of whatever orientation in chapter three. No fuss, no bother.

>Agreed.

Seconded.

>>B) So if we can tell what slash is, how do we denote it? Do
>>we denote it?

>>Generally speaking, most slash writers do tell their readers
>>that their stories are slash stories. It's a compromise we
>>are more or less willing to accept, though of course, some
>>are far less willing to accept it and some far more.

>I think that's fair. I warn about violence in mine. Same reason.

Same here -- I'm usually pretty explicit in my warnings, but just
because I don't want people to be surprised and then get upset with me
as an author.

>>I'm willing to accept it, although I would NOT accept it if
>>slash were to be a warning on a par with graphic torture and
>>rape. If it's the graphic nature of these acts which warrant
>>the warning, then "graphic sex" covers slash and het, and
>>there's no need to distinguish further.

>This is where discussion would have been good. I was not "equating" slash
>with smut or graphic torture or any of that except that they are all
>squickable. Could I be convinced to leave the word slash out so long as
>everyone understands that if there is sex in the story (by whichever

couple

>or group) it needs to be noted, graphic or not? Yes. I am a reasonable
>person.

I agree with Dwim -- if we're warning because of "graphic" sex, then
slash shouldn't be singled out above and beyond het. If we're warning
because it's an area people have said they'd like some warning in, then
we should be clear that it's not being warned for the same reason as
graphic sex and torture.

As for Ainae's comment, I know you weren't equating slash with smut, but
some people are going to assume that. I know, you're not interested in
assumptions, but in contests like this perception is often reality, and
the facts often matter less to people than the scandalising statements
like "The MEFA's are homophobic" or whatever. I'd be fine with just
warning if there's sex in the story (either implied or explicit, I'm
assuming). I would suggest, if we go with this, that we require any
pairings, even if the story's not primarily a romance.

<snip>

I'd be fine with Dwim's suggestions 1 and 3 (Ainae's objections to #2
are noted), but I prefer #3 personally:

>>3) Include it, as I think it was Andreth suggested, in the pairings
>>listing: all pairings that matter to the story's unfolding
>>should be declared.

<snip>

>>4) Divide romance into het and slash. The problem here is
>>that that would effectively ghettoize slash and prevent
>>stories focusing on homosexual couples or homosexuality per
>>se competing in other categories which do not traditionally
>>separate themselves according to who sleeps with whom (or who
>>would be willing to sleep with whom).

I agree -- I'm not crazy about this idea.

>I don't, however, consider a subcategory to be ghettoizing anything

anymore

>than it ghettoizes poems. It doesn't ghettoise Romance, something I don't
>read in any form, to be in a separate category.

No, but what do you do about a humour piece involving slash elements?
Should that be judged against Romance, drama, adventure, and anything
else that includes slash elements? It seems it could force things into a
mold that I'm not sure they're intended to go into.

HTH,
Marta

<snip>

>
> <snip>
>
> >>List of possibilities, starting with the obvious question...
>
> >>A) What is slash?
>
> >>*Personally*, I would say slash is a story *focusing* on same
> >>sex relationships, whether or not the relationship is

consummated.

> >>Homosexuality per se doth not a slash story make, any more
> >>than the fact that a story set in the Fourth Age, when
> >>Aragorn and Arwen are married, is thereby a romance story
> >>just because we mention that yes, they are married and are
> >>having kids.
>
> I agree. Same-sex relationships mentioned in the periphery don't

make a

> story slash. But I have to ask -- given we're dealing with cultures
> where same-sex relationships wouldn't be as socially acceptable,

why is

> the relationship being mentioned?

I'm about to run off to a reading group, but I wanted to make sure we
don't get off topic.

Marta, while I totally know what you're saying, I think that that is
a stylistic point, and as such does not necessarily have a bearing on
defining what slash is. FYI, I have seen many "manly bonds"
or "soldierly bonds" type stories (and have written one myself) where
it is an issue of making noticeable what should qualify as background
if it were real world. If that makes sense. Um... ten minutes and my
ride gets here... if that's confusing, I'll try reposting at a later
time.

Point being: it may be very clumsy to say "So and so had been gay
lovers for many years" or something like that, but the clumsiness of
it does not necessarily mean that that point is going to be a major
element in making the story work. So I don't know that your question
is necessarily going to get us closer to a commonly accepted
definition of slash for this list.


<snip?

>
> >I would agree with this. I don't think Sam taking Frodo's hand in
> Rivendell
> >in the movie was "slash". Either watcher could interpret that

either way.

> >Now, if Frodo and Sam were to have sex, I'd call that slash.
>
> But I think it's possible to have a slash story where sex isn't

even an

> element. Where they are clearly romantic but without sex actually
> occurring (implied or otherwise). I do agree that this is different

from

> sexually ambiguous gestures like Sam's taking Frodo's hand in

Rivendell.

> That's not clearly slash, but it could be, depending on what the

author

> did with it (for example, what Sam or Frodo were thinking during

that

> scene).

This seems correct. And again, it's not the gesture per se, it's what
the author makes of it. Not every slash story includes sex, as noted,
but I think we need not at this point worry over ambiguous gestures.
Personally, I've not seen many slash stories that were ambiguous.
Most slash is pretty upfront about what's going on. SOmething that
subtle, if it were left ambiguous, could prove a challenge,
certainly, but it need not if either the author is explicit in
his/her intentions in the summary or pairings listing or if the
reader simply decides not to interpret the gesture as slash.


Ok, I'm out of time.

TTFN, all!

Dwim

There is so much here to read and possibly reply to, that I'll probably be
lumping several posts together into this one and applying ample amounts of
snippage. First, Marta's

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:26 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] RE: Possible ways of handling the slash label
>
> First, to lay my cards on the table, I rarely read slash and
> have never written it -- but this is not because I am
> offended by or opposed to slash. I've just come across some
> very bad slash pieces that ignore the impact an openly
> homosexual relationship might have in a pre-modern society. I
> have, however, nominated three pieces that I consider
> outstanding pieces with homosexual elements (Dwim's "From the
> Other River Bank" and Anglachel's "Legacy" and "On Merry Yule").

Likewise, I rarely read sex (or romance) of any fashion, though if it is
part of a plot (and not the reason for the plot), I won't necessarily be
squicked. Jasta's Dark Leaf has some pretty strong stuff in it, to put it
lightly. It's a fabulous story and that strong stuff has it's appropriate
place in it.

> So I don't object to some sort of "warning" (or whatever we
> want to call it), but that's more because I think people
> should be warned beforehand on exactly what they're reading,
> so they can make the best use of their reading time. If a
> significant number of people request a certain "warning,"
> then I say we should consider giving it to them -- and this
> doesn't (in my mind) reflect poorly on the story or what was
> being warned against.

That's how I feel.

> Now on to Ainae's and Dwim's comments.
>
> >>List of possibilities, starting with the obvious question...
>
> >>A) What is slash?
>
> I agree. Same-sex relationships mentioned in the periphery
> don't make a story slash. But I have to ask -- given we're
> dealing with cultures where same-sex relationships wouldn't
> be as socially acceptable, why is the relationship being
> mentioned? I suppose Elrond could be struggling with
> Celebrian's leaving Middle-earth and Glorfindel could comfort
> him with tales of his own long-term separation from Celeborn,
> or some such thing. I suppose I just find mentioning of
> same-sex relationships on the periphery a bit odd, but then
> (like I said) I don't read much of the stuff.

I'd give you periphery and Dwim has addressed that question. However, if
Glorfindel did sit down and comfort Elrond with tales of his own long-term
separation from Celeborn, I'd certainly raise an eyebrow. It might not ruin
the story for me, depends on how peripheral it is, I suppose. But it would
strike me as OC (we all have our own views of the characters) and I'd be
thinking "What did Galadriel think of *that*!"

> But I think it's possible to have a slash story where sex
> isn't even an element. Where they are clearly romantic but
> without sex actually occurring (implied or otherwise). I do
> agree that this is different from sexually ambiguous gestures
> like Sam's taking Frodo's hand in Rivendell.
> That's not clearly slash, but it could be, depending on what
> the author did with it (for example, what Sam or Frodo were
> thinking during that scene).

Yep, on both points. It doesn't have to be sex to be slash anymore than it
has to be sex to be a het romance. And I'm for ambiguous things like that
not being equated with slash, because that is clearly something that either
a pro-slash reader or an non-slash reader could read and interpret their own
way without needing to step on each other's toes.

> >>Likewise, if the main characters are written as
> homosexual, >>but this fact does not play a central role in
> the story, then >>I suggest that this does not qualify as slash.
>
> Agreed -- but if we go with this, I think we need to make it
> clear onthe website or whatever exactly what we mean by a slash story.

Oh, we will. Just like I did for NC-17.

> I agree here as well -- a story between two heterosexuals of
> opposite gender isnt' necessarily het, why should slash be
> defined differently?

Exactly.

> >I think that's fair. I warn about violence in mine. Same reason.
>
> Same here -- I'm usually pretty explicit in my warnings, but
> just because I don't want people to be surprised and then get
> upset with me as an author.

The story I've worried about that the most with was The Lure of Darkness for
me. Now, you must understand I've written a Star Trek story set in Auschwitz
and fairly historically accurate. There is torture and degradation and
starvation and death (and yes, even a hint of slash in that a young man is
"taken in" by the blockalteste in return for food and blankets and such.
However, that is subtly stated and never overt.). The Lure of the Darkness
is about a spider wanting to eat a little girl. But it is the only story
I've ever rated as an R. It's the closest thing I've written toward a sex
scene. So, I did rate it R and say for "adult content" though I can't
remember if I included that with my nomination. But if you look on my web
site or ff.net, I'm sure there are warnings there. HASA, too.

> I agree with Dwim -- if we're warning because of "graphic"
> sex, then slash shouldn't be singled out above and beyond
> het. If we're warning because it's an area people have said
> they'd like some warning in, then we should be clear that
> it's not being warned for the same reason as graphic sex and torture.
>
> As for Ainae's comment, I know you weren't equating slash
> with smut, but some people are going to assume that. I know,
> you're not interested in assumptions, but in contests like
> this perception is often reality, and the facts often matter
> less to people than the scandalising statements like "The
> MEFA's are homophobic" or whatever. I'd be fine with just
> warning if there's sex in the story (either implied or
> explicit, I'm assuming). I would suggest, if we go with this,
> that we require any pairings, even if the story's not
> primarily a romance.

Thank you for understanding.

> <snip>
>
> I'd be fine with Dwim's suggestions 1 and 3 (Ainae's objections to #2
> are noted), but I prefer #3 personally:
>
> >>3) Include it, as I think it was Andreth suggested, in the pairings
> >>listing: all pairings that matter to the story's unfolding
> >>should be declared.

I agree there, as I've already said, and I think this could develop into a
poll, possibly, after we've nailed down a definition of slash.

> >>4) Divide romance into het and slash. The problem here is
> >>that that would effectively ghettoize slash and prevent
> >>stories focusing on homosexual couples or homosexuality per
> >>se competing in other categories which do not traditionally
> >>separate themselves according to who sleeps with whom (or who
> >>would be willing to sleep with whom).
>
> I agree -- I'm not crazy about this idea.
>
> >I don't, however, consider a subcategory to be ghettoizing anything
> anymore
> >than it ghettoizes poems. It doesn't ghettoise Romance,
> something I don't
> >read in any form, to be in a separate category.
>
> No, but what do you do about a humour piece involving slash elements?
> Should that be judged against Romance, drama, adventure, and anything
> else that includes slash elements? It seems it could force
> things into a
> mold that I'm not sure they're intended to go into.

It's not the best solution and I know that and don't advocate it. I just
don't see "slash" as any more special a topic than "violence" or "mpreg".
Asking to be warned about violence is not seen as offensive. Asking to be
warned about slash is. It seems a double-standard to me, and I'm not fond
of double-standards.

And Dwim wrote:

Re that scene with Frodo and Sam

>This seems correct. And again, it's not the gesture per se, it's what the

author makes of it. Not every slash story includes sex, as noted, but I
think we need not at this point worry over ambiguous gestures.

Right-o.

>Personally, I've not seen many slash stories that were ambiguous.

Most slash is pretty upfront about what's going on. SOmething that subtle,
if it were left ambiguous, could prove a challenge, certainly, but it need
not if either the author is explicit in his/her intentions in the summary or
pairings listing or if the reader simply decides not to interpret the
gesture as slash.

Something that subtle I wouldn't care if the author mentioned it in a
summary or not. As I said, that *can* be read either way without anyone
stepping on another's toes. That, to, me would certainly not need to be
"labeled" "slash".

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com

>>First, to lay my cards on the table, I rarely read slash and
>>have never written it -- but this is not because I am
>>offended by or opposed to slash. I've just come across some
>>very bad slash pieces that ignore the impact an openly
>>homosexual relationship might have in a pre-modern society. I
>>have, however, nominated three pieces that I consider
>>outstanding pieces with homosexual elements (Dwim's "From the
>>Other River Bank" and Anglachel's "Legacy" and "On Merry Yule").

>Likewise, I rarely read sex (or romance) of any fashion, though if it is
>part of a plot (and not the reason for the plot), I won't necessarily be
>squicked. Jasta's Dark Leaf has some pretty strong stuff in it, to put it
>lightly. It's a fabulous story and that strong stuff has it's appropriate
>place in it.

This is exactly the way I feel. I will very rarely read pure smut, and
am much more likely to enjoy a story if it's pure romance than if the
romance is used to some other point. (Sexuality of a culture or some
individual within that culture is "some other point," as far as I'm
concerned.)

<What is slash?>

>>Same-sex relationships mentioned in the periphery
>>don't make a story slash. But I have to ask -- given we're
>>dealing with cultures where same-sex relationships wouldn't
>>be as socially acceptable, why is the relationship being
>>mentioned? I suppose Elrond could be struggling with
>>Celebrian's leaving Middle-earth and Glorfindel could comfort
>>him with tales of his own long-term separation from Celeborn,
>>or some such thing. I suppose I just find mentioning of
>>same-sex relationships on the periphery a bit odd, but then
>>(like I said) I don't read much of the stuff.

>I'd give you periphery and Dwim has addressed that question. However, if
>Glorfindel did sit down and comfort Elrond with tales of his own long-term
>separation from Celeborn, I'd certainly raise an eyebrow. It might not

ruin

>the story for me, depends on how peripheral it is, I suppose. But it would
>strike me as OC (we all have our own views of the characters) and I'd be
>thinking "What did Galadriel think of *that*!"

Lol. Trust me, a Men-person, to come up with an example that was clearly
OC. I was trying to think of pairings with Men and coming up blank for
ones that weren't incestuous (which *is* a major squick of mine). Make
it, I don't know, Elphir pining away for some OFC and Boromir comforting
him with stories of his long-time separation with Eomer. Which doesn't
work *either,* for various reasons. But that's beside the point. Someone
come up with a pairing that does work, and the principle stays the same.

(And no, I think this is a tangent on a tangent, so I don't really need
to continue this discussion on-list!)

>>But I think it's possible to have a slash story where sex
>>isn't even an element. Where they are clearly romantic but
>>without sex actually occurring (implied or otherwise). I do
>>agree that this is different from sexually ambiguous gestures
>>like Sam's taking Frodo's hand in Rivendell.
>>That's not clearly slash, but it could be, depending on what
>>the author did with it (for example, what Sam or Frodo were
>>thinking during that scene).

>Yep, on both points. It doesn't have to be sex to be slash anymore than it
>has to be sex to be a het romance. And I'm for ambiguous things like that
>not being equated with slash, because that is clearly something that

either

>a pro-slash reader or an non-slash reader could read and interpret

their own

>way without needing to step on each other's toes.

Glad to know we agree. Though I suppose an ambiguous action
(hand-holding) could be turned into something slashy by how the author
presented it (Sam's thoughts on holding Frodo's hands). BUt I agree with
Dwim, this is more or less an academic point for this discussion -- I
think most cases are going to be much more clear-cut.

>>if we go with this, I think we need to make it
>>clear onthe website or whatever exactly what we mean by a slash story.

>Oh, we will. Just like I did for NC-17.

Excellent. I just keeping about that whole perception vs. reality thing.

<snip>

>>I'm usually pretty explicit in my warnings, but
>>just because I don't want people to be surprised and then get
>>upset with me as an author.

>The story I've worried about that the most with was The Lure of

Darkness for

>me. Now, you must understand I've written a Star Trek story set in

Auschwitz

>and fairly historically accurate. There is torture and degradation and
>starvation and death (and yes, even a hint of slash in that a young man is
>"taken in" by the blockalteste in return for food and blankets and such.
>However, that is subtly stated and never overt.). The Lure of the Darkness
>is about a spider wanting to eat a little girl. But it is the only story
>I've ever rated as an R. It's the closest thing I've written toward a sex
>scene. So, I did rate it R and say for "adult content" though I can't
>remember if I included that with my nomination. But if you look on my web
>site or ff.net, I'm sure there are warnings there. HASA, too.

When I put up warnings it's usually for things people find unattractive
rather than out-and-out offensive. Things like AU and OC's (I tend to
write more about minor canon and original characters than many people
like to read). But if you don't like the things I'm writing, then it's
not in my best interest to have you read my stuff because you're
probably not going to like it, especially if you didn't expect it. As a
reader, I have limited time, and find I get highly annoyed with writers
who I get halfway into their stories and find that it should have been
better labelled. It just seems common courtesy. But maybe that's just me.

>>I'd be fine with Dwim's suggestions 1 and 3 (Ainae's objections to #2
>>are noted), but I prefer #3 personally:

>>>3) Include it, as I think it was Andreth suggested, in the pairings
>>>listing: all pairings that matter to the story's unfolding
>>>should be declared.

>I agree there, as I've already said, and I think this could develop into a
>poll, possibly, after we've nailed down a definition of slash.

That sounds like the best route.

>>what do you do about a humour piece involving slash elements?
>>Should that be judged against Romance, drama, adventure, and anything
>>else that includes slash elements? It seems it could force
>>things into a
>>mold that I'm not sure they're intended to go into.

>It's not the best solution and I know that and don't advocate it. I just
>don't see "slash" as any more special a topic than "violence" or "mpreg".
>Asking to be warned about violence is not seen as offensive. Asking to be
>warned about slash is. It seems a double-standard to me, and I'm not fond
>of double-standards.

Neither am I. Even if I did find slash offensive (which I don't), I'd
hope that people wouldn't find it intrinsically more offensive than,
say, violence or mpreg. Or at least, if they did, that they could see
that not everyone would feel that way.

I agree with you that I don't think a separate category is the best way,
and I think we have some other good options.

Thanks for all your time on this, btw. It's nice to have a rational
discussion on this topic, and I think you're doing a fine job in a tight
spot.

Marta

>>Same-sex relationships mentioned in the periphery don't
>>make a
>>story slash. But I have to ask -- given we're dealing with cultures
>>where same-sex relationships wouldn't be as socially acceptable,
>>why is
>>the relationship being mentioned?

>I'm about to run off to a reading group, but I wanted to make sure

we

>don't get off topic.

>Marta, while I totally know what you're saying, I think that that is
>a stylistic point, and as such does not necessarily have a bearing

on

>defining what slash is.

You're right, this is tangential, and I apologise for bringing it
up. I was really just thinking out loud, which is always a dangerous
thing.

Feel free, then, to reply to my further comments on-list, off-list,
or not at all, whichever you feel appropriate.

>FYI, I have seen many "manly bonds"
>or "soldierly bonds" type stories (and have written one myself)

where

>it is an issue of making noticeable what should qualify as

background

>if it were real world. If that makes sense. Um... ten minutes and my
>ride gets here... if that's confusing, I'll try reposting at a later
>time.

What story of yours are you referring to (FtORB, or something else?)
I kind of understand what you're saying about "soldierly bonds" type
stories of stories, but I'm honestly trying to puzzle out in my mind
how such a relationship could be tangential to the story, just
because it would by its nature be kept rather hidden? I suppose it's
possible, but I think it would be a lot clearer in my mind if I had
an example to work with.

>Point being: it may be very clumsy to say "So and so had been gay
>lovers for many years" or something like that, but the clumsiness of
>it does not necessarily mean that that point is going to be a major
>element in making the story work. So I don't know that your question
>is necessarily going to get us closer to a commonly accepted
>definition of slash for this list.

Fair enough.

>>I think it's possible to have a slash story where sex isn't
>>even an
>>element. Where they are clearly romantic but without sex actually
>>occurring (implied or otherwise). I do agree that this is different
>>from
>>sexually ambiguous gestures like Sam's taking Frodo's hand in
>>Rivendell.
>>That's not clearly slash, but it could be, depending on what the
>>author
>>did with it (for example, what Sam or Frodo were thinking during
>>that
>>scene).

>This seems correct. And again, it's not the gesture per se, it's

what

>the author makes of it.

Agreed.

>Not every slash story includes sex, as noted,
>but I think we need not at this point worry over ambiguous gestures.
>Personally, I've not seen many slash stories that were ambiguous.
>Most slash is pretty upfront about what's going on. SOmething that
>subtle, if it were left ambiguous, could prove a challenge,
>certainly, but it need not if either the author is explicit in
>his/her intentions in the summary or pairings listing or if the
>reader simply decides not to interpret the gesture as slash.

I see what you're saying. Like I said, I really don't read many
stories that I consider slash, certainly not at venues that
specialise in it (Libraries of Moria and so on), so I'm not that
familiar with what's really being written. I think that unless a
story is obviously slash in its content, or if the author labels it
as slash, it shouldn't need the label for the purposes of this
contest.

>Ok, I'm out of time.

Enjoy your group!

Marta

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marta [mailto:MartaL0712@netscape.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:13 PM
> To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] RE: RE: Possible ways of handling
> the slash label
>
> <What is slash?>
>
> >...views of the characters) and I'd be >thinking "What did
> Galadriel think of *that*!"
>
> Lol. Trust me, a Men-person, to come up with an example that
> was clearly OC. I was trying to think of pairings with Men
> and coming up blank for ones that weren't incestuous (which
> *is* a major squick of mine). Make it, I don't know, Elphir
> pining away for some OFC and Boromir comforting him with
> stories of his long-time separation with Eomer. Which doesn't
> work *either,* for various reasons. But that's beside the
> point. Someone come up with a pairing that does work, and the
> principle stays the same.

:-) How about the man in charge of the Houses of Healing and the guy who's
supposed to be guarding the gate to Rath Dinen?

> (And no, I think this is a tangent on a tangent, so I don't
> really need to continue this discussion on-list!)

;-) Okay.

> Glad to know we agree. Though I suppose an ambiguous action
> (hand-holding) could be turned into something slashy by how
> the author presented it (Sam's thoughts on holding Frodo's
> hands). BUt I agree with Dwim, this is more or less an
> academic point for this discussion -- I think most cases are
> going to be much more clear-cut.

Yes. It *can* be written that way or left ambigous. It's the ambigous that
we wouldn't worry about. The clear-cut ones would need to be identified in
some manner.

> Excellent. I just keeping about that whole perception vs.
> reality thing.

Yep. Personally, I'm a rational thinker and I've been on the receiving end
of far too much punishment based on assumptions or perceptions or feelings.
I gave my sister 30 days notice to leave my house (for many good reasons
that I won't go into here). My older sister said "You kicked her out
without a safe place to stay!" To which I argued that she could have stayed
in my house for 30 days. It wasn't like I was going to try to kill her or
anything. And I gave her a copy of the notice to read. To which she
replied, "Well, it *felt* like you kicked her out without a safe place to
stay!" and treated me accordingly. I have since lost both of those sisters
to this family rift, and my birth-mother. (I've already posted here about my
adopted mother.) So it's really not something I like very much. I do know
that perceptions do happen and they color reality. But I really don't like
people to be punished because of them.

> When I put up warnings it's usually for things people find
> unattractive rather than out-and-out offensive.

Agreed. I don't think my spider story is offensive. Just might be
surprising to some!

> Things like
> AU and OC's (I tend to write more about minor canon and
> original characters than many people like to read). But if
> you don't like the things I'm writing, then it's not in my
> best interest to have you read my stuff because you're
> probably not going to like it, especially if you didn't
> expect it. As a reader, I have limited time, and find I get
> highly annoyed with writers who I get halfway into their
> stories and find that it should have been better labelled. It
> just seems common courtesy. But maybe that's just me.

I agree. If you really hate Holocaust stories I don't need you to read mine.
You wouldn't likely have the most open mind but a preconception that the
story will stink. Given, there are exceptions who will try a story they
think they may not like and will be willing to be surprised with quality.

> >I agree there, as I've already said, and I think this could
> develop into a >poll, possibly, after we've nailed down a
> definition of slash.
>
> That sounds like the best route.

;-) Gotta love the MegaStress. I already forgot the ideas for what would be
in the poll. But still, I did say it would be after we got this defined. So
let's not worry about a poll just yet.

>>I'm not fond >of double-standards.
>
> Neither am I. Even if I did find slash offensive (which I
> don't), I'd hope that people wouldn't find it intrinsically
> more offensive than, say, violence or mpreg. Or at least, if
> they did, that they could see that not everyone would feel that way.

One could hope. I have a mother who is very much into double-standards.
Well, I had a mother.... My new mom isn't like that, thankfully. My
birth-mother had the audacity to say in her last e-mail to me "Just because
someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are wrong and you are
right. Sometimes people just see things differently."

Wise statement. I just wish she'd apply that statement to herself and my
disagreeing with her.

> I agree with you that I don't think a separate category is
> the best way, and I think we have some other good options.

Yes we do.

> Thanks for all your time on this, btw. It's nice to have a
> rational discussion on this topic, and I think you're doing a
> fine job in a tight spot.

Thank you.

--Ainaechoiriel

"This evil cannot be concealed by the power of the Elves," Elrond said, "for
it is Windows-compatible, and freeware at that." --H.F.

http://www.stormpages.com/gabrielle/lotr Land of Myth and Memory
Blog: http://www.ainaechoiriel.blogspot.com