Yahoo Forum Archive

I couldn't finalize any more reviews last night (I'd saved them as "hidden" over the course of the week and planned to finalize them Thursday), so I went in this morning first thing to finalize a bunch. So folks ought to be seeing them *next* Friday...

Just wanted to chime in on the long-versus-short discussion, albeit belated. I don't know why it is I can be so long-winded when writing out of my imagination, but when writing facts each word comes like pulling teeth. The reviews I've managed so far are all short, 1 to 3 points, but the words are very carefully chosen at least. And the three-pointers are definitely the stories that had the most impact when I read them. (And I liked the 1 pointers or I would not have left any feedback at all.)

So if you are wordy in your feedback, you can arrange it so that your favs get 10 points and your least favs get 6, but if you're not wordy, your reviews still count as votes, and you can weight them in the same manner. If someone's not going to read my reviews because they're short and pithy, well, that's their choice. But though my feedback doesn't have a lot of words to it, I think it hits the high points.

(Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I've tackled drabbles to review first, and like someone else mentioned, I have trouble writing reviews longer than what I'm reviewing.)
?
*********

Liza, good point about spoilers. Is it a spoiler to say, "Nice surprise ending" or that the ending took one by surprise, or to mention the fact that there's a plot twist in the feedback? I apologize if so, for I've used those words in a couple of reviews before reading your post.

**********

As to negative reviews, I don't see much point in writing them. I have the impression that this is not a forum for concrit - might be better to email the author for that. Unless of course you absolutely love the story and don't mind bumping up the point value. And certainly, if you absolutely hate a story, you'll give it fewer points by saying nothing.

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In a message dated 10/12/2007 11:03:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BLJean@aol.com writes:

(Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I've tackled drabbles to
review first, and like someone else mentioned, I have trouble writing reviews
longer than what I'm reviewing.)



I'll third that. I do write longer reviews, but it's for longer stuff. I
can't muster up more than 3 points so far for a drabble.

Isabeau



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I will be a heretic and admit that I don't think any drabble deserves more
than a 3 or 4, if a fine novel, research piece or a well-crafted long story
can only get a 10. (I make exceptions for drabble collections that are
interrelated and show grow and development of character and plot.)



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--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

>
> I will be a heretic and admit that I don't think any drabble

deserves more

> than a 3 or 4, if a fine novel, research piece or a well-crafted

long story

> can only get a 10. (I make exceptions for drabble collections that are
> interrelated and show grow and development of character and plot.)

I don't agree. I think a well-done drabble can merit just as many
points as any other story. I admit it is more difficult to write (and
I was very happy when I managed it for the first time), but I don't
think one should make a difference between a drabble and other forms
of stories.

What do you do then about poems, who are mostly also rather short (to
take two extreme examples, haikus or tankas)? Do you make a difference
between a 200-word drabble and a 213-word-"other ficlet"?

I just don't see where the length of a story has anything to do with
the points it "deserves".

Imhiriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Imhiriel" <Larys.HMF@...> wrote:

>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@ wrote:
> >
> > I will be a heretic and admit that I don't think any drabble
> deserves more
> > than a 3 or 4, if a fine novel, research piece or a well-crafted
> long story
> > can only get a 10. (I make exceptions for drabble collections

that are

> > interrelated and show grow and development of character and plot.)
>
> I don't agree. I think a well-done drabble can merit just as many
> points as any other story. I admit it is more difficult to write (and
> I was very happy when I managed it for the first time), but I don't
> think one should make a difference between a drabble and other forms
> of stories.

Addendum: I meant: manage to write a 10-point review for a drabble.

>
> What do you do then about poems, who are mostly also rather short (to
> take two extreme examples, haikus or tankas)? Do you make a difference
> between a 200-word drabble and a 213-word-"other ficlet"?
>
> I just don't see where the length of a story has anything to do with
> the points it "deserves".

I absolutely respect your right to that opinion but could not disagree with you more strongly.?Although there is a?vague similarity to the?discipline involved in writing a drabble in comparison to a?poem, poetry?places far?different?and greater?demands upon the writer than any drabble, however moving or carefully crafted. I really refuse to accept, for myself, that a novel or long story,?which an author has spent months to years working on and thinking about, outlining, plotting, correcting, researching extensively,?is equal to a drabble that takes, at most, overnight to produce. I?do make an exception for authentic 100-word drabbles running against other drabbles (then I would rate them one against another and score accordingly), but?often double drabbles, ficlets, etc.,?are?placed in categories where they are compared to novels and other long pieces. I am careful and serious when I write drabbles or ficlets, but cannot begin to express the difference in labor, consideration and sheer?back-breaking, soul-wrenching labor?required to produce?my longer pieces?versus the others. Sorry. I know I get all too passionate about the question of writing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Imhiriel <Larys.HMF@web.de>
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 1:03 pm
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Long versus short reviews

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:
>
> I will be a heretic and admit that I don't think any drabble
deserves more
> than a 3 or 4, if a fine novel, research piece or a well-crafted
long story
> can only get a 10. (I make exceptions for drabble collections that are
> interrelated and show grow and development of character and plot.)

I don't agree. I think a well-done drabble can merit just as many
points as any other story. I admit it is more difficult to write (and
I was very happy when I managed it for the first time), but I don't
think one should make a difference between a drabble and other forms
of stories.

What do you do then about poems, who are mostly also rather short (to
take two extreme examples, haikus or tankas)? Do you make a difference
between a 200-word drabble and a 213-word-"other ficlet"?

I just don't see where the length of a story has anything to do with
the points it "deserves".

Imhiriel





________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

>
> I absolutely respect your right to that opinion but could not
> disagree with you more strongly. Although there is a vague
> similarity to the discipline involved in writing a drabble in
> comparison to a poem, poetry places far different and
> greater demands upon the writer than any drabble, however moving or
> carefully crafted. I really refuse to accept, for myself, that a
> novel or long story, which an author has spent months to years
> working on and thinking about, outlining, plotting, correcting,
> researching extensively, is equal to a drabble that takes, at most,
> overnight to produce.

Wow! Well I must be a different drabblist because some drabbles can be
stubborn as hell, add rebellious muses to the mix and cannot be
written just overnight... Every person is just different regarding
this, that's something to take into account. I sometimes can write a
vignette or a short story faster than some drabble (series) :) (I
actually have one drabble series waiting to be completed for months
and it is just hanging on the last drabble in the series, so I know
this can happen...) I daresay that drabbles can also involve a huge
amount of researching, plotting and thinking it over before it gets
written. The same applies for reviewing I guess. What works for one
person, doesn't have to be the same to the others... :)

> Sorry. I know I get all too passionate about the question of
> writing.

I know :) Each to their own. Want some cookies?

Rhapsody

Long? Short? It's all art - innit?
Verse this short!
Really ought
To be taught
To thwart
Or support
The thought
That aught
Can distort
Scores of the sort
That make you snort!

Verbosity however, has copious validity
Of enhancing the writer's talent and ability!
It displays profound wit and versatility
And raises their art to the heights of nobility.
So please don't disparage the acceptability
Of length over brevity with any hostility!
(We writers are fraught with such fragility)
Accept, I beg, the distinct possibility
That longness and shortness can find compatibility!
Succinctness may be lauded for its affordability
Whilst length is applauded for deductibility!

Sorry 'bout that - but I've been ill.

Liza


In a message dated 12/10/2007 20:07:59 GMT Standard Time,
rhapsodybard@gmail.com writes:

> Sorry. I know I get all too passionate about the question of
> writing.

I know :) Each to their own. Want some cookies?

Rhapsody







******************************************************************
http://www.livejournal.com/users/knittedmerry/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/llinos/
*****************************************************************
"Which reminds me: what's become of my ring, Frodo, that you took away?"
"I have lost it, Bilbo dear," said Frodo "I got rid of it, you know."
******************************************************************






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey, yes, Rhaposody, I'll take a cookie! I am not taking about extrensive series of drabbles or mixtures of drabbles and ficlets. But the single drabble. I can change a word or two in drabble for up to a year or more, but it is not in the same universe as writing a novella. But then nothing is easy for me to write. I will admit that sometimes it is harder to write 100 words than, say, 350 on the same subject, plot and characters. But harder to write than an average length short story of 3-10,000 words--not for me and I get asked to read them on a regular basis at an alarming rate. "Hey, I just wrote this. Will you take a look?" Not months--but an hour or less since I last heard from the person!


-----Original Message-----
From: rhapsody_the_bard <rhapsodybard@gmail.com>
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 3:07 pm
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Long versus short reviews

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:
>
> I absolutely respect your right to that opinion but could not
> disagree with you more strongly. Although there is a vague
> similarity to the discipline involved in writing a drabble in
> comparison to a poem, poetry places far different and
> greater demands upon the writer than any drabble, however moving or
> carefully crafted. I really refuse to accept, for myself, that a
> novel or long story, which an author has spent months to years
> working on and thinking about, outlining, plotting, correcting,
> researching extensively, is equal to a drabble that takes, at most,
> overnight to produce.

Wow! Well I must be a different drabblist because some drabbles can be
stubborn as hell, add rebellious muses to the mix and cannot be
written just overnight... Every person is just different regarding
this, that's something to take into account. I sometimes can write a
vignette or a short story faster than some drabble (series) :) (I
actually have one drabble series waiting to be completed for months
and it is just hanging on the last drabble in the series, so I know
this can happen...) I daresay that drabbles can also involve a huge
amount of researching, plotting and thinking it over before it gets
written. The same applies for reviewing I guess. What works for one
person, doesn't have to be the same to the others... :)

> Sorry. I know I get all too passionate about the question of
> writing.

I know :) Each to their own. Want some cookies?

Rhapsody





________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

>
> I absolutely respect your right to that opinion but could not

disagree with you more strongly.?Although there is a?vague similarity
to the?discipline involved in writing a drabble in comparison to
a?poem, poetry?places far?different?and greater?demands upon the
writer than any drabble, however moving or carefully crafted. I really
refuse to accept, for myself, that a novel or long story,?which an
author has spent months to years working on and thinking about,
outlining, plotting, correcting, researching extensively,?is equal to
a drabble that takes, at most, overnight to produce.

I really don't want to get into a debate with you (and please pass
Rhapsody's cookies, I'm feeling a bit peckish at the moment <g>), but
it seems we are really seeing things very differently.

Just as Rhapsody, I often work longer and harder on my genuine
drabbles, where I have to weigh every single word doubly and
threefold, than I do on longer stories without any word constraints.

Of course not all my drabbles take that long, but the same is true for
a few of my longer stories which were written relatively quickly. So
for me there is little difference concerning the thought, work,
research and time involved in whether I'm writing drabbles or other
stories.

Imhiriel

OK. Sorry, again. I'll drop it. Nothing is quick for me. It's all like sweating blood. (The longer it is the more blood I lose.)


-----Original Message-----
From: Imhiriel <Larys.HMF@web.de>
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 3:59 pm
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: Long versus short reviews

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:
>
> I absolutely respect your right to that opinion but could not
disagree with you more strongly.?Although there is a?vague similarity
to the?discipline involved in writing a drabble in comparison to
a?poem, poetry?places far?different?and greater?demands upon the
writer than any drabble, however moving or carefully crafted. I really
refuse to accept, for myself, that a novel or long story,?which an
author has spent months to years working on and thinking about,
outlining, plotting, correcting, researching extensively,?is equal to
a drabble that takes, at most, overnight to produce.

I really don't want to get into a debate with you (and please pass
Rhapsody's cookies, I'm feeling a bit peckish at the moment <g>), but
it seems we are really seeing things very differently.

Just as Rhapsody, I often work longer and harder on my genuine
drabbles, where I have to weigh every single word doubly and
threefold, than I do on longer stories without any word constraints.

Of course not all my drabbles take that long, but the same is true for
a few of my longer stories which were written relatively quickly. So
for me there is little difference concerning the thought, work,
research and time involved in whether I'm writing drabbles or other
stories.

Imhiriel





________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Priceless!!!!!

On 10/12/07, LizaLlinos@aol.com <LizaLlinos@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Long? Short? It's all art - innit?
> Verse this short!
> Really ought
> To be taught
> To thwart
> Or support
> The thought
> That aught
> Can distort
> Scores of the sort
> That make you snort!
>
> Verbosity however, has copious validity
> Of enhancing the writer's talent and ability!
> It displays profound wit and versatility
> And raises their art to the heights of nobility.
> So please don't disparage the acceptability
> Of length over brevity with any hostility!
> (We writers are fraught with such fragility)
> Accept, I beg, the distinct possibility
> That longness and shortness can find compatibility!
> Succinctness may be lauded for its affordability
> Whilst length is applauded for deductibility!
>
> Sorry 'bout that - but I've been ill.
>
> Liza
>
> .
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!

*wipes tears of laughter from her eyes*

Oh, thank you for this, Liza!

And {{{hugs}}} on being ill... but it doesn't seem to have hurt your muse
any!

- Barbara, grinning madly

On 10/12/07, LizaLlinos@aol.com <LizaLlinos@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Long? Short? It's all art - innit?
> Verse this short!
> Really ought
> To be taught
> To thwart
> Or support
> The thought
> That aught
> Can distort
> Scores of the sort
> That make you snort!
>
> Verbosity however, has copious validity
> Of enhancing the writer's talent and ability!
> It displays profound wit and versatility
> And raises their art to the heights of nobility.
> So please don't disparage the acceptability
> Of length over brevity with any hostility!
> (We writers are fraught with such fragility)
> Accept, I beg, the distinct possibility
> That longness and shortness can find compatibility!
> Succinctness may be lauded for its affordability
> Whilst length is applauded for deductibility!
>
> Sorry 'bout that - but I've been ill.
>
> Liza
>
>
> In a message dated 12/10/2007 20:07:59 GMT Standard Time,
> rhapsodybard@gmail.com <rhapsodybard%40gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Sorry. I know I get all too passionate about the question of
> > writing.
>
> I know :) Each to their own. Want some cookies?
>
> Rhapsody
>
> ******************************************************************
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/knittedmerry/
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/llinos/
> *****************************************************************
> "Which reminds me: what's become of my ring, Frodo, that you took away?"
> "I have lost it, Bilbo dear," said Frodo "I got rid of it, you know."
> ******************************************************************
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hullo!

Lindelea said:"Liza, good point about spoilers. Is it a spoiler to say, "Nice surprise ending" or that the ending took one by surprise, or to mention the fact that there's a plot twist in the feedback? I apologize if so, for I've used those words in a couple of reviews before reading your post."

My own opinion is that sort of comment is?great and actually encourages folks who check out the reviews first to read the story because they are looking forward to seeing what you are talking about for themselves. What?I take as being a spoiler is when the review is sort of a summation of the contents of the story itself including specific plot points that give the high points of the story away.
?
Here are a few made up examples of what I consider to be spoilers -?"I actually cried when Faramir?killed Bob" or "I thought the ending where Frodo won the prize was really good" or "I?was so surprised when Blossom died in the last chapter"?or "I loved the amazing twist in the plot where it turned out that Pippin had the Ring in his pocket all of the time" and things of that sort.

I don't want to know beforehand that Faramir is going to kill Bob or that?despite the obstacles that Frodo will win or that Blossom is going to die or where the Ring is hidden. I *do* want to know that the other reviewers were caught up in the story or enjoyed the plot twists or found the content to be highly original and so forth.

Cheers!

Mari



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Lindelea,

You and I think alike, apparently :-)

> Just wanted to chime in on the long-versus-short discussion, albeit
> belated. I don't know why it is I can be so long-winded when writing out
> of my imagination, but when writing facts each word comes like pulling
> teeth.

Different skill sets. Me, I've been writing graduate philosophy essays
for a year now and it's easier for me to analyze stuff than it ever was
(but harder to write fiction).

But whatever the case may be, I really appreciate your and everyone
else's efforts. Whatever length you write, the awards are better for it.

> As to negative reviews, I don't see much point in writing them. I have
> the impression that this is not a forum for concrit - might be better to
> email the author for that. Unless of course you absolutely love the
> story and don't mind bumping up the point value. And certainly, if you
> absolutely hate a story, you'll give it fewer points by saying nothing.
>

You're definitely right that negative reviews are counterprodutive. Some
people find it easier to really dig into a piece if they can present
both the positive and what didn't quite work. As long as a review is
still mostly positive we do allow concrit. But yeah, it isn't really the
best forum for detailed analysis of every fault.


Good points, Lin!

Marta

Well, considering how many reviews I've already done, you're all gonna
see what you're all gonna see at this point, whether they're spoilers
or not. Sorry if I've managed to give you too many ideas ahead of
time, folks.

Bonnie L. Sherrell
Teacher at Large

"Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." LOTR

"Don't go where I can't follow."

I mourn for this nation.

I'm sorry - I'm in the same boat as Bonnie - I wrote close to 50 reviews
before the process was complete and now I can't change those - all finals -
and I wouldn't even attempt it.

Sorry..... I hope I didn't give anything away - but I don't know.

Agape


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bonnie,

No problem. This spoiler thing is a new request; you and everyone else
couldn't have known about it ahead of time. Don't feel any pressure to
go back and add the warning to old reviews you've already written.

Thanks for all your reviewing! It's appreciated.

Marta

Bonnie L. Sherrell wrote:

>
>
> Well, considering how many reviews I've already done, you're all gonna
> see what you're all gonna see at this point, whether they're spoilers
> or not. Sorry if I've managed to give you too many ideas ahead of
> time, folks.
>
> Bonnie L. Sherrell
> Teacher at Large
>
> "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the
> very wise cannot see all ends." LOTR
>
> "Don't go where I can't follow."
>
> I mourn for this nation.
>

Agape 4Rivendell wrote:

>
>
> I'm sorry - I'm in the same boat as Bonnie - I wrote close to 50 reviews
> before the process was complete and now I can't change those - all finals -
> and I wouldn't even attempt it.
>
> Sorry..... I hope I didn't give anything away - but I don't know.
>
> Agape
>

Hi Agape:

Don't worry about the ones you've already entered. This is a new thing.
Just enter the warning on any new reviews you do, for this year and next
year (if you review again). Thanks!

Marta

Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: Long versus short reviews













"LizaLlinos@aol.com" <LizaLlinos@aol.com> wrote:



Long? Short? It's all art - innit?

Verse this short!

Really ought

To be taught

To thwart

Or support

The thought

That aught

Can distort

Scores of the sort

That make you snort!



Verbosity however, has copious validity

Of enhancing the writer's talent and ability!

It displays profound wit and versatility

And raises their art to the heights of nobility.

So please don't disparage the acceptability

Of length over brevity with any hostility!

(We writers are fraught with such fragility)

Accept, I beg, the distinct possibility

That longness and shortness can find compatibility!

Succinctness may be lauded for its affordability

Whilst length is applauded for deductibility!



Sorry 'bout that - but I've been ill.



Liza
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Omy!
That's fabulous!
The short one was very Dr Suess-ical!

and the long one reminded me of Gilbert & Sullivan!
("Very Model of a Modern Major General") all the complicated rhyming!

Well done!
-Barb (Merbrat)










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