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Hey guys,

I've been reading reviews this week, and noticed that a few people were
including their name at the bottom of their reviews, like if you were
writing an email.

This is a natural thing to do without thinking about it, and I've caught
myself doing this once or twice, too. However, it's really not necessary
to put your name on your reviews because the website displays your MEFA
nickname (however your name is displayed on our site) automatically.
Plus it adds some characters to your review, making it longer and
potentially worth more points. True, it's often only a few characters in
some cases, but it's still something I'd rather avoid if possible.

Therefore, in the future, I'd appreciate it if everyone would avoid
signing their name at the end of their reviews. Thanks!

Marta

In a message dated 7/16/2008 10:18:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
melayton@gmail.com writes:

I've been reading reviews this week, and noticed that a few people were
including their name at the bottom of their reviews, like if you were
writing an email.




I hadn't noticed that one, but I did notice a few shorter quotations
slipping through that have not been enclosed in brackets. (Sorry don't remember
where they are now.) Perhaps it is a good time to remind people of those again as
well. I have a terrible time getting those right myself. I catch the big ones
when I'm writing, but really have to watch myself on the shorter ones.

And a question on that as well: If one mentions the name of story, I presume
that doesn't have to be in brackets? Or does it? I have just been writing
around it. Also wanted to refer to a previous work by an author in a review and
didn't know of that title had to be in brackets?



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Oshun,

> [I've been reading reviews this week, and noticed that a few people were
> including their name at the bottom of their reviews, like if you were
> writing an email.]
>
> I hadn't noticed that one, but I did notice a few shorter quotations
> slipping through that have not been enclosed in brackets. (Sorry don't
> remember
> where they are now.) Perhaps it is a good time to remind people of those
> again as
> well. I have a terrible time getting those right myself. I catch the big
> ones
> when I'm writing, but really have to watch myself on the shorter ones.
>

Good idea! I had originally intended to write one of my educational
posts on quotes in reviews, but I think it wasn't slated for several
weeks yet. I will make that the topic of my post tomorrow and will write
about what was going to be tomorrow's post in a few weeks. (It can wait
more than quotes can.)

> And a question on that as well: If one mentions the name of story, I
> presume
> that doesn't have to be in brackets? Or does it? I have just been writing
> around it. Also wanted to refer to a previous work by an author in a
> review and
> didn't know of that title had to be in brackets?
>

It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from doing it,
either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels more
comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise, it feels to
the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length. I personally
don't do it (though I do sometimes use an abbreviated version of the
title), but I want reviewers to be comfortable so am willing to let them
do what they want on this issue.

Also, I suspect some people just find it easier to think "double quotes
means I have to put in square brackets." Which I get - there are enough
rules, and I'm all for anything that reminds people of what they need to
put the brackets around. I'm more concerned about people putting [square
brackets] around too little rather than too much.

If you notice any more quotes that need square bracketing, please let me
know. Just copy the header of the review and say what you think needs to
be bracketed.

Btw, when I say header I mean something like

Title: Before the Black Gate · Author: Raksha the Demon · Times: Late
Third Age · ID: 45
Reviewer: Linda hoyland · 2008-06-12 02:07:34

(not at all criticizing this review - just showing what I'm talking
about by grabbing the first review on my screen)

Anyway... thanks for bringing this up, it's a good topic to talk about.

Marta

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM, melayton@gmail.com <melayton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from doing it,
> either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels more
> comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise, it feels to
> the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length.

Thanks for clarifying this, Marta. It's something I've always wondered about
... but I've wondered while reading reviews by authors who bracket titles
and then never remember to ask about it. :) I don't do it and had never seen
a rule about it, but so many people do it that I'd wondered if I was missing
something.

Dawn

--
~oOo~
Dawn Felagund
www.silmarillionwritersguild.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dawn,

Glad to clear that up! It's funny how often there are questions we don't
think about when we have the opportunity to ask them. It reminds me of
the old joke, about the hillbilly who said he couldn't repair his leaky
roof when it was raining because it was raining, but when it stopped
said he didn't have to now, because the roof didn't leak! *giggles*

Anyway, I suspect this is a question a lot of people have. I think if it
makes the reviewers more comfortable to put [square quotes] around their
story titles, that's completely fine; but it's not something anyone
should be obligated to do, and not against the rules.

Marta

Dawn Felagund wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM, melayton@gmail.com
> <mailto:melayton%40gmail.com> <melayton@gmail.com
> <mailto:melayton%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from doing it,
> > either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels more
> > comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise, it feels to
> > the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length.
>
> Thanks for clarifying this, Marta. It's something I've always wondered about
> ... but I've wondered while reading reviews by authors who bracket titles
> and then never remember to ask about it. :) I don't do it and had never seen
> a rule about it, but so many people do it that I'd wondered if I was missing
> something.
>
> Dawn
>

This may be a completely dopey question but ... *is* it against the rules to inflate a review so that it scores more points? I confess to being overly convoluted and chatty in a few reviews for stories that I really wanted to score well. Is that okay?
 
viv

http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama

--- On Wed, 7/16/08, melayton@gmail.com <melayton@gmail.com> wrote:







> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM, melayton@gmail. com
> <mailto:melayton% 40gmail.com> <melayton@gmail. com
> <mailto:melayton% 40gmail.com> >
> wrote:
> > It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from doing it,
> > either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels more
> > comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise, it feels to
> > the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length.
>













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/16/2008 2:18:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com writes:

I confess to being overly convoluted and chatty in a few reviews for stories
that I really wanted to score well. Is that okay?





I think that would be impossible to police--your chatty might be my normal
wordiness.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No, that's the whole point of the system--to give the most points to the
stories you think most deserve them. But the idea behind the brackets is so
that you are doing the work of inflation yourself, rather than just pasting
in a bunch of quotes to bring the points up.

In other words, it is a test of how much you *really* want a story to
do--are you willing to put in the effort.

(And trust me, it can be hard sometimes, especially if you are reviewing a
really short ficlet! LOL!)

Dreamflower

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Viv <spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This may be a completely dopey question but ... *is* it against the
> rules to inflate a review so that it scores more points? I confess to being
> overly convoluted and chatty in a few reviews for stories that I really
> wanted to score well. Is that okay?
>
> viv
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama
>
> --- On Wed, 7/16/08, melayton@gmail.com <melayton%40gmail.com> <
> melayton@gmail.com <melayton%40gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM, melayton@gmail. com
> > <mailto:melayton% <melayton%25> 40gmail.com> <melayton@gmail. com
> > <mailto:melayton% <melayton%25> 40gmail.com> >
> > wrote:
> > > It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from doing it,
> > > either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels more
> > > comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise, it feels to
> > > the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While I find my standard review earns three points with gusts up to
five on occasion. It seems difficult for me to get past that.
Bonnie L. Sherrell
Teacher at Large

"Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." LOTR

"Don't go where I can't follow."

I mourn for this nation.

I know! It's a little odd when, in the case of drabbles especially, the review is longer than the story. :)
 
viv

http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama

--- On Wed, 7/16/08, Barbara Rich <aelfwina@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Barbara Rich <aelfwina@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] quotes; was: a gentle reminder - signatures in reviews
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 2:23 PM

(And trust me, it can be hard sometimes, especially if you are reviewing a
really short ficlet! LOL!)

Dreamflower

In a message dated 7/16/2008 2:33:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com writes:

I know! It's a little odd when, in the case of drabbles especially, the
review is longer than the story. :)






I personally have a tendency to score by length, but that is an individual
preference option (I like to reward an author for intense, long periods of
sustained work: drabbles/ficlets 2-5; short stories: 4-7; novellas/novels -
7-10; but, obviously, I do make higher exceptions for really outstanding, amazing
pieces in very competitive categories.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Viv,

I think Dreamflower put it very well: when you're chatty, you're
actually thinking of what to say. That's not a problem.

The reason we put [square brackets] around quotes is that the reviewer
didn't have to think of those words; they just typed or copied them into
the review. Of course it takes effort to find the perfect quotes (I'm
editing my masters thesis, BELIEVE ME I know this fact!) but it's a
different type of effort... so we decide not to have such characters
count toward the length of the review. Some people choose to put titles
into [square brackets] for the same reason, because a really long title
can add up quick. For instance, Dwim's WIP title "Lie Down in Darkness,
Rise Up From the Ash" is thirty-four characters long. If it was in
competition this year, typing that full title three or four times could
bump you up a point. Even once could easily push you over the threshold
between points.

With both quotes and titles, the issue isn't so much making the review
longer, but *artificially* making it longer - adding to the length, not
by thinking of more content, but by putting in something written by
someone else. So as long as you're actually talking about the story in
your review, I think you're okay.

Of course, we're not NaNoWriMo ;-), so if you start adding your grocery
list to your reviews or describing how to format a bibliography, we may
have to talk about that. But so long as the chatting is actually related
to the story (even tangentially), I don't have a problem with it.

Marta

Viv wrote:

>
>
> This may be a completely dopey question but ... *is* it against the
> rules to inflate a review so that it scores more points? I confess to
> being overly convoluted and chatty in a few reviews for stories that I
> really wanted to score well. Is that okay?
>
> viv
>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama
> <http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama>
>

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Viv <spacellamaprincess@...> wrote:

>
> I know! It's a little odd when, in the case of drabbles especially,

the review is longer than the story. :)

I know, it takes practice <g>! I often have the feeling that I'm much
more babbling in drabbles than in longer stories where is more to
"hook on" for elaborating on different details in a review.

But if you think a poem or a drabble is outstanding, I think it's fair
to not judge it less *on principle*, only because of its shorter word
count, because, well, the shorter length is *part* of its
genre/structure/form/whatever you might call it, and part of what a
good drabbler/poet can work with/use to its best advantage.

Imhiriel

I don't know what others think about this one, but in past years I've
seen a few reviews that consisted entirely, or almost entirely, of
story summaries. I don't mean relating a bit of the plot here or
there in the course of your review, or talking about a part you
especially liked, I mean a straight summary with little or no
commentary (maybe just with "Great story!" at the end). Somehow that
doesn't seem quite cricket to me.

Kathy

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Rich" <aelfwina@...> wrote:
>
> No, that's the whole point of the system--to give the most points
to the
> stories you think most deserve them. But the idea behind the
brackets is so
> that you are doing the work of inflation yourself, rather than just
pasting
> in a bunch of quotes to bring the points up.
>
> In other words, it is a test of how much you *really* want a story
to
> do--are you willing to put in the effort.
>
> (And trust me, it can be hard sometimes, especially if you are
reviewing a
> really short ficlet! LOL!)
>
> Dreamflower
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Viv <spacellamaprincess@...> wrote:
>
> > This may be a completely dopey question but ... *is* it against
the
> > rules to inflate a review so that it scores more points? I
confess to being
> > overly convoluted and chatty in a few reviews for stories that I
really
> > wanted to score well. Is that okay?
> >
> > viv
> >
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama
> >
> > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, melayton@... <melayton%40gmail.com> <
> > melayton@... <melayton%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM, melayton@gmail. com
> > > <mailto:melayton% <melayton%25> 40gmail.com> <melayton@gmail.
com
> > > <mailto:melayton% <melayton%25> 40gmail.com> >
> > > wrote:
> > > > It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from
doing it,
> > > > either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels
more
> > > > comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise,
it feels to
> > > > the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length.
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sadly, that seems to be some reviewers' reviewing style. I know that even
outside the MEFAs I have a few reviewers who basically summarize the chapter
or story--it's as though they want you to know they paid attention in class,
if you know what I mean.

Usually they are younger readers, and will gradually develop a little more
finesse with their reviews as time goes by.

Dreamflower

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Kathy <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I don't know what others think about this one, but in past years I've
> seen a few reviews that consisted entirely, or almost entirely, of
> story summaries. I don't mean relating a bit of the plot here or
> there in the course of your review, or talking about a part you
> especially liked, I mean a straight summary with little or no
> commentary (maybe just with "Great story!" at the end). Somehow that
> doesn't seem quite cricket to me.
>
> Kathy
>
> --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com <MEFAwards%40yahoogroups.com>, "Barbara
> Rich" <aelfwina@...> wrote:
> >
> > No, that's the whole point of the system--to give the most points
> to the
> > stories you think most deserve them. But the idea behind the
> brackets is so
> > that you are doing the work of inflation yourself, rather than just
> pasting
> > in a bunch of quotes to bring the points up.
> >
> > In other words, it is a test of how much you *really* want a story
> to
> > do--are you willing to put in the effort.
> >
> > (And trust me, it can be hard sometimes, especially if you are
> reviewing a
> > really short ficlet! LOL!)
> >
> > Dreamflower
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:17 PM, Viv <spacellamaprincess@...> wrote:
> >
> > > This may be a completely dopey question but ... *is* it against
> the
> > > rules to inflate a review so that it scores more points? I
> confess to being
> > > overly convoluted and chatty in a few reviews for stories that I
> really
> > > wanted to score well. Is that okay?
> > >
> > > viv
> > >
> > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, melayton@... <melayton%40gmail.com> <
> > > melayton@... <melayton%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:31 AM, melayton@gmail. com
> > > > <mailto:melayton% <melayton%25> <melayton%25> 40gmail.com>
> <melayton@gmail.
> com
> > > > <mailto:melayton% <melayton%25> <melayton%25> 40gmail.com> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > It's not necessary, but I'm not going to stop people from
> doing it,
> > > > > either! Sometimes with really long titles, the reviewer feels
> more
> > > > > comfortable if they put it in [square brackets]; otherwise,
> it feels to
> > > > > the reviewer like they are inflating their review's length.
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/16/2008 3:25:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Larys.HMF@web.de writes:

But if you think a poem or a drabble is outstanding, I think it's fair
to not judge it less *on principle*, only because of its shorter word
count, because, well, the shorter length is *part* of its
genre/structure/genre/structure/<WBR>form/whatever you might call it, a
good drabbler/poet can work with/use to its best advantage.



We've had this discussion before, I know I really should stop raising it. I
do not think is the drabble is equivalent to poetry. Every single year, I do
find a few exceptions where the writer actually uses the genre to their
advantage; the vast majority simply are very short. Many would serve well as a
seed of a story (I often use them for that, to capture a thought and hold it),
but in and of themselves they usually feel incomplete to me--like the author
had an idea and jotted it down quickly. OK perhaps they had to go back and
carefully add or delete some words to make a perfect 100, but that is not the
same as poety. I think in a lot of cases the drabbles actually stop some
talented fanfic writers from developing and really expressing their storytelling
and creative potential. I get the feeling that people are easier on themselves
because the genre exists and it is popular.



**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You see that kind of review a lot on amazon.com and goodreads.com... more a recap than a reaction. It's helpful, I think, for people who use reviews to decide whether they want to read the longer work.
 
I tend to be a lot less concise and a lot more squee-y in my reviews. *blush*
 
viv

http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama

--- On Wed, 7/16/08, Kathy <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: Kathy <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: quotes; was: a gentle reminder - signatures in reviews
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:26 PM


I don't know what others think about this one, but in past years I've
seen a few reviews that consisted entirely, or almost entirely, of
story summaries. I don't mean relating a bit of the plot here or
there in the course of your review, or talking about a part you
especially liked, I mean a straight summary with little or no
commentary (maybe just with "Great story!" at the end). Somehow that
doesn't seem quite cricket to me.

Kathy

In a message dated 7/16/2008 3:26:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net writes:

I don't know what others think about this one, but in past years I've
seen a few reviews that consisted entirely, or almost entirely, of
story summaries. I don't mean relating a bit of the plot here or
there in the course of your review, or talking about a part you
especially liked, I mean a straight summary with little or no
commentary (maybe just with "Great story!" at the end). Somehow that
doesn't seem quite cricket to me.


Hey, if we were all great critics we could be writing for the Sunday New
York Times Book Review and making a lot of money. I think the point of the MEFAs
is it is a reader's choice. That one really like a story, does not
necessarily mean the reader is themself a terrific review writer.



**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe that drabbling serves an important purpose in developing writing skills, at least at the sentence level. A good drabble contains exquisite, worried-over word choices, tight attention to theme/purpose, and even, in some cases, poetic phrasing like alliteration or repetition. Just as a longer story forces me to work on my skills at plotting and characterization, drabbling forces me to hone the writing basics.

So having this philosophy of drabbling, I do just the opposite of beign "easier" on drabbles and drabblers: in fact, as a reader/reviewer (and as a writer), I hold drabbles to a higher standard as far as grammar and style errors go.

It's okay to dislike them, though. I can see how drabbles could be frustrating for readers who long for more meat-n-potatoes. :) To each his own, right? Happily, there are lots of different kinds of stories in MEFA this year.

viv

http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama

--- On Wed, 7/16/08, heartofoshun@aol.com <heartofoshun@aol.com> wrote:

From: heartofoshun@aol.com <heartofoshun@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: quotes; was: a gentle reminder - signatures in reviews
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:53 PM


I think in a lot of cases the drabbles actually stop some
talented fanfic writers from developing and really expressing their storytelling
and creative potential. I get the feeling that people are easier on themselves
because the genre exists and it is popular.

************ **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker. com!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/16/2008 4:07:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com writes:

It's okay to dislike them, though.
I appreciate your points. I sometimes say I dislike them in a fit of pique,
although that is not entirely true. I do find drabbles that are amazing and to
which I would not add a word. There are others that seem like a tease and a
cheat and you have to read a lot of them to find the awesome ones.

I'll be the first to admit that I am more careful with every single word in
a drabble or even a ficlet than I am in a novel (although it may be seem like
it, I do go over every sentence again and again in a novel--I am a slow
writer), but doesn't make my drabbles poetry.

I can see how drabbles could be frustrating for readers who long for more
meat-n-potatoes. :) To each his own, right? Happily, there are lots of
different kinds of stories in MEFA this year.


I agree. I review a lot of drabbles also. But, for example, if the same
writer gives me a nice drabble and a good novel, which did they spend more time
on? To say tne two are equal is like a kick in shins to a novelist. Why spend a
year writer a novel when I could spend ever as much a two days perfecting
the best drabble I ever wrote and they are both worth 10 points in the view of
the world. Pretty discouraging for me.



**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

> We've had this discussion before, I know I really should stop

raising it.

<g> I can't resist either...

I

> do not think is the drabble is equivalent to poetry.

Of course a poem isn't equivalent to poetry. I merely mentioned poems
in combination with drabbles because poems, too, tend to be very
short, and therefore some people may feel they don't merit long reviews.

Every single year, I do

> find a few exceptions where the writer actually uses the genre to

their

> advantage; the vast majority simply are very short.

But, Oshun, don't you think this is exactly where you as a reviewer
can make a judgement call and don't give much or any points in the
review if you think the drabble isn't good on its own *as a drabble*?

I actually agree with you on many of your points, but when I see those
drabbles, I just go to the next until I find one I think actually
succeeds.

Like everywhere, there is good and there is (usually more) bad. And
you don't have to like everything. But I just feel that you can't say
drabbles *per se*, as a genre, deserves less regard, because perhaps
sometimes people use the form for the wrong (for you subjectively, or
objectively visible) reasons.

As an extreme example (because you said earlier that you liked long
stories), you could equally say that some novels are rambling and show
that the author can't get to the point and shows a lack of discipline?
I'd say if that is so, it's equally unfair to judge the whole genre of
the novel because of its *bad* examples, instead of what it can be if
it's done right.

Imhiriel

heartofoshun said:

We've had this discussion before, I know I really should stop raising it. I
do not think is the drabble is equivalent to poetry. Every single year, I do

find a few exceptions where the writer actually uses the genre to their
advantage; the vast majority simply are very short. Many would serve well as
a
seed of a story (I often use them for that, to capture a thought and hold
it),
but in and of themselves they usually feel incomplete to me--like the author

had an idea and jotted it down quickly. OK perhaps they had to go back and
carefully add or delete some words to make a perfect 100, but that is not
the
same as poety. I think in a lot of cases the drabbles actually stop some
talented fanfic writers from developing and really expressing their
storytelling
and creative potential. I get the feeling that people are easier on
themselves
because the genre exists and it is popular.

A lot of it depends upon the drabblist. I know of some writers who even use
the drabble as a basis for longer work--and no, not just as a springboard
for an idea, but as structure. They write drabble sets or drabble series,
and can be amazing, when you look at a story of, oh, say 1500 words, and
realize that it's constructed of 15 perfect one hundred word "chapters".

And then there are drabbles that say all they need to say in one hundred
words--perhaps we are just getting a look at a scene we already know from
canon from a new POV.

Of course, some do feel imcomplete and leave one wanting more. But that
also goes for regular stories too.

Dreamflower

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 3:53 PM, <heartofoshun@aol.com> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/16/2008 3:25:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Larys.HMF@web.de <Larys.HMF%40web.de> writes:
>
> But if you think a poem or a drabble is outstanding, I think it's fair
> to not judge it less *on principle*, only because of its shorter word
> count, because, well, the shorter length is *part* of its
> genre/structure/genre/structure/<WBR>form/whatever you might call it, a
> good drabbler/poet can work with/use to its best advantage.
>
> We've had this discussion before, I know I really should stop raising it. I
>
> do not think is the drabble is equivalent to poetry. Every single year, I
> do
> find a few exceptions where the writer actually uses the genre to their
> advantage; the vast majority simply are very short. Many would serve well
> as a
> seed of a story (I often use them for that, to capture a thought and hold
> it),
> but in and of themselves they usually feel incomplete to me--like the
> author
> had an idea and jotted it down quickly. OK perhaps they had to go back and
> carefully add or delete some words to make a perfect 100, but that is not
> the
> same as poety. I think in a lot of cases the drabbles actually stop some
> talented fanfic writers from developing and really expressing their
> storytelling
> and creative potential. I get the feeling that people are easier on
> themselves
> because the genre exists and it is popular.
>
> **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
> music
> scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
> (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112<http://www.tourtracker.com/?NCID=aolmus00050000000112>
> )
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/16/2008 4:29:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Larys.HMF@web.de writes:

I'd say if that is so, it's equally unfair to judge the whole genre of
the novel because of its *bad* examples, instead of what it can be if
it's done right.




It certainly is less grueling to read a mediocre drabble than to read a bad
novel (but like you I just wouldn't finish the bad novel, whereas the drabble
I finish and go "gah!"). But on the other hand, I would argue that the
greatest drabble took far less effort than a readable interesting novel.



**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/16/2008 4:30:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
aelfwina@gmail.com writes:

And then there are drabbles that say all they need to say in one hundred
words--perhaps we are just getting a look at a scene we already know from
canon from a new POV.






I am actually writing a drabble right now, that I am not finished with. I am
letting it simmer and going back to it--it's for a challenge, of course. I
felt like a real hypocrite asking for concrit on it in my writers' group where
I routinely complain about drabbles. I have actually just written a glowing
review of a drabble series by someone who is a consistently good writer of
drabbles (but, ducking flying tomatoes, I wish she would have written a nice
juicy long story on the subject matter instead of the drabbles).

Separate point: a lot of drabbles work to the degree that they do, only
because they are fanfic and we all share the same body of canon knowledge.

Also, I am a real poetry freak. I love poetry, but only really great poets.
I cannot just tune in to any poem because it displays a moderate amount of
workmanship and good form and get excited about it either. I used to write a
lot of poetry but I gave it up, because I do not think it can be learned beyond
a certain point of minimal competence--it requires a type of genus, not just
elbow grease and effort.



**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

heartofoshun wrote:
Separate point: a lot of drabbles work to the degree that they do, only
because they are fanfic and we all share the same body of canon knowledge.

*Actually, this goes for all fanfic. There is a big difference when the
readership shares the author's mind for much of the backstory. In original
fiction, it's easy to assume the reader will know what one's writing about,
and be wrong. In fanfic, however, that shared knowledge can be used to good
effect. For example: almost any fic about Boromir has a certain amount of
foreshadowing to it, because everyone knows his fate (not talking AU here),
so that even something which appears fluffy on the surface has a bittersweet
subtext. A good fanfic writer can use that knowledge for the effect she
wants without ever referring to it directly.*
**
*It's actually a skill that makes good fanfic very different from good
original fic.*
**
*Dreamflower
*

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:45 PM, <heartofoshun@aol.com> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/16/2008 4:30:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> aelfwina@gmail.com <aelfwina%40gmail.com> writes:
>
> And then there are drabbles that say all they need to say in one hundred
> words--perhaps we are just getting a look at a scene we already know from
> canon from a new POV.
>
> I am actually writing a drabble right now, that I am not finished with. I
> am
> letting it simmer and going back to it--it's for a challenge, of course. I
> felt like a real hypocrite asking for concrit on it in my writers' group
> where
> I routinely complain about drabbles. I have actually just written a glowing
>
> review of a drabble series by someone who is a consistently good writer of
> drabbles (but, ducking flying tomatoes, I wish she would have written a
> nice
> juicy long story on the subject matter instead of the drabbles).
>
> Separate point: a lot of drabbles work to the degree that they do, only
> because they are fanfic and we all share the same body of canon knowledge.
>
> Also, I am a real poetry freak. I love poetry, but only really great poets.
>
> I cannot just tune in to any poem because it displays a moderate amount of
> workmanship and good form and get excited about it either. I used to write
> a
> lot of poetry but I gave it up, because I do not think it can be learned
> beyond
> a certain point of minimal competence--it requires a type of genus, not
> just
> elbow grease and effort.
>
> **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
> music
> scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
> (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112<http://www.tourtracker.com/?NCID=aolmus00050000000112>
> )
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/16/2008 5:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
aelfwina@gmail.com writes:

A good fanfic writer can use that knowledge for the effect she
wants without ever referring to it directly



That's an excellent point, Dreamflower. And on occasion it's a pure gift to
the writer. I have praised for poignancy of foreshadowing in certain WIPs,
when I had barely begun to think about that aspect of the story yet. LOL Hey,
don't look a gift horse in the mouth!



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hullo Everyone!


I haven't have a chance to read all of the posts on this subject so I apologise if this has already been touched upon...

I do understand that all reviewers have a different reviewing style and that is fine - and I understand that some reviewers style consists of recapping the story rather than actually commenting upon it. I *prefer* reviews that are more a reaction to the story but a review is a review - as long as they are careful to put a Spoiler Alert!

To me there is nothing more disappointing than to read a review, to see what others think of a story before I read it, only to have the actual story retold and all the plot points revealed and the ending given away! I think that not only does that give everything away, sometimes it also puts me off reading the actual story. I might have liked it overall had I read it, but?if it's revealed that X happens in the story when I don't generally like plots with X in them,?or if it's revealed that XX happens at the end and?I don't care for the outcome?I might pass over it - there are so many stories to read after all and I don't have time to read them all so I am less likely to read one which contains some little part that I don't generally like reading about, if you see what I mean, or if I already know how it ends. If there is a Spoiler Alert included I'm able to pass over that review and read only those reviews that don't give me the summary of the whole story!

Cheers

Marigold


-----Original Message-----
From: Viv <spacellamaprincess@yahoo.com>
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 9:55 pm
Subject: Re: [MEFAwards] Re: quotes; was: a gentle reminder - signatures in reviews






You?see that kind of review a lot on amazon.com and goodreads.com... more a recap than a reaction. It's helpful, I think, for people who use reviews to decide whether they want to read the longer work.
?
I tend to be a lot less concise and a lot more squee-y in my reviews. *blush*
?
viv

http://www.livejournal.com/users/spacellama

--- On Wed, 7/16/08, Kathy <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: Kathy <inkling-tcbs@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [MEFAwards] Re: quotes; was: a gentle reminder - signatures in reviews
To: MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 3:26 PM

I don't know what others think about this one, but in past years I've
seen a few reviews that consisted entirely, or almost entirely, of
story summaries. I don't mean relating a bit of the plot here or
there in the course of your review, or talking about a part you
especially liked, I mean a straight summary with little or no
commentary (maybe just with "Great story!" at the end). Somehow that
doesn't seem quite cricket to me.

Kathy





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, MarigoldCotton@... wrote:

> To me there is nothing more disappointing than to read a review, to

see what others think of a story before I read it, only to have the
actual story retold and all the plot points revealed and the ending
given away! I think that not only does that give everything away,
sometimes it also puts me off reading the actual story. I might have
liked it overall had I read it, but?if it's revealed that X happens in
the story when I don't generally like plots with X in them,?or if it's
revealed that XX happens at the end and?I don't care for the outcome?I
might pass over it - there are so many stories to read after all and I
don't have time to read them all so I am less likely to read one which
contains some little part that I don't generally like reading about,
if you see what I mean, or if I already know how it ends.

I'm curious: what happens if you *don't* know these things in advance
and then read the story? Are you annoyed when you discover X or XX
while actually reading the story? Do you think you've wasted your time
reading it when there are those things that you didn't like? (Which
would speak for those sorts of reviews actually being an advantage for
you in sorting out those stories)

Or is it that you can you tolerate it more if you don't know in advance?

Imhiriel

In a message dated 7/17/2008 12:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Larys.HMF@web.de writes:

Or is it that you can you tolerate it more if you don't know in advance?




I had the same question as Imhriel.

How do people feel about movies of books, if the spoilers that rountinely
popup in most publsihed book reviews bother them so much?



**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

>
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2008 12:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Larys.HMF@... writes:
>
>> Or is it that you can you tolerate it more if you don't know in
>> advance?
>
> I had the same question as Imhriel.
>
> How do people feel about movies of books, if the spoilers that
> rountinely popup in most publsihed book reviews bother them so much?

I think there is a huge difference between reviews in newspapers and
magazine as to the opposite of for example blog reviews written of
leaked pre-air episodes of tv shows, movies ect. Newspapers and
magazine's you simply can avoid if you want to see a movie or an
episode completely anew, without being told all the details. If you
don't want to know how it ends, don't read the reviews, that's what I
think. So that section is always skipped.

On the other hand I do not wish to be taken at unawares, by an e-mail
or a blog post (in between normal posts) revealing all plot details of
a tv show episode I wanted to watch for so long or a book I have been
wanting to read. It takes out all the fun of anticipation and the
rollercoaster ride when watching or reading. It is not so much about
tolerance I think, not to me.

However, I can imagine that when reviews are posted at this group and
e-mails/digests are delivered into your inbox, one has to dutifully
leave them unread, risking the chance to miss out those reviews
without spoilers, but those still might wet the appetite to read it. I
do think what Marigold wants to say here is that the line spoiler
alerts makes it easier for her to quickly skip over it to the review
without spoilers and are therefore muchly appreciated.

Rhapsody

I think I have really weird tolerance for spoilers unless they tell me the
final punch line of a story that is principally written to provide that "gasp!"
or huge surprise at the end. Or, obviously, tell me who the killer is in a
mystery novel.

I do think the "spoiler" warnings are great, if they make people happy. But
I am having a really hard time trying to avoid having to use them if I don't
have too. It is really hard. Without mentioning anything about a story, a
review becomes a string of assertions of excellence and adjectives.

I also presume, from what people have written here over time, that the
"spoiler" tags are meant to be used quite liberally--at the hint of a spoiler by
anybody's most conservative definition, a good citizen of the community will
slap one on. Someone even put a "spoiler" notice on a non-fiction academic
piece. Now that surprised me--not making this up.

I want to help showcase stories with my reviews. To me one of the huge
bonuses of the MEFAs is to expose the best stories of the year to a wider
audience. I am afraid if I write a review that I have label "spoiler," then many
people won't read the review and therefore can't be drawn to considere reading
the story.

On the other hand, If I can't mention any concrete details, then the review
floats out in space somewhere, simply a catalogue of generalizations. If you
know and trust me, you might read the story, otherwise no matter how many
ways I can think of insisting that it is interesting and well-written it's not
concrete. (Instead of a reader reading a review and saying "That sounds
fascinating. I really want to read it." They might read my generalizations and
think "Hmmm. Oshun liked it. But I don't always have the same taste she does." I
don't think one has to include a surpise ending. It's usually enough in that
case to say, the ending really surprised me.





**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

>
> I think I have really weird tolerance for spoilers unless they tell

me the

> final punch line of a story that is principally written to provide

that "gasp!"

> or huge surprise at the end. Or, obviously, tell me who the killer

is in a

> mystery novel.

It's the same with me. And I'm also struggling with the question of
just when to include a spoiler warning. I lean to using it very
judiciously, limiting it to punch lines, or unusual approaches or
twists when I can't find a way to write "around" it, or fear of
becoming too general, as you say.

> I want to help showcase stories with my reviews. To me one of the huge
> bonuses of the MEFAs is to expose the best stories of the year to a

wider

> audience. I am afraid if I write a review that I have label

"spoiler," then many

> people won't read the review and therefore can't be drawn to

considere reading

> the story.

I'd be curious to know just how many people actually avoid reading
reviews with spoilers... Perhaps we could have a poll?

Imhiriel

I have a pretty high spoiler tolerance as well, I guess. If a story has a
twist or a surprise ending, of course I don't want to know exactly what that
is.

And, let's face it, by its very nature any non-AU fanfic is automatically
spoiled. If a pre-Quest story is about a sick Frodo, we know he'll get
well. If it's about Aragorn getting captured, we know he'll get away--after
all, we know they have to survive to go on quest. In fact, I feel one of
the greatest compliments I can pay a story is to say: "Well, even though I
know how it ends in canon, I was so caught up that I nearly forgot!"

So, if I'm reviewing a canon gapfiller that doesn't have any particular
surprise in it, I don't feel revealing a few things that happen call for a
spoiler alert. For example, I might say "This story is about Merry's and
Pippin's captivity by the Orcs." There's no spoiler there--we all know that
happened!

However, if it's AU, or taking place outside canon, e.g. Fourth Age, I'll
try to be a bit more cautious. I try not to reveal more than the author has
in her summary if I can, and if I can't, then I will check the spoiler alert
box.

It's a fine line to walk--it can be very difficult to write anything of
substance about a story without giving away any plot points at all!

Dreamflower

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:23 PM, <heartofoshun@aol.com> wrote:

> I think I have really weird tolerance for spoilers unless they tell me
> the
> final punch line of a story that is principally written to provide that
> "gasp!"
> or huge surprise at the end. Or, obviously, tell me who the killer is in a
> mystery novel.
>
> I do think the "spoiler" warnings are great, if they make people happy. But
>
> I am having a really hard time trying to avoid having to use them if I
> don't
> have too. It is really hard. Without mentioning anything about a story, a
> review becomes a string of assertions of excellence and adjectives.
>
> I also presume, from what people have written here over time, that the
> "spoiler" tags are meant to be used quite liberally--at the hint of a
> spoiler by
> anybody's most conservative definition, a good citizen of the community
> will
> slap one on. Someone even put a "spoiler" notice on a non-fiction academic
> piece. Now that surprised me--not making this up.
>
> I want to help showcase stories with my reviews. To me one of the huge
> bonuses of the MEFAs is to expose the best stories of the year to a wider
> audience. I am afraid if I write a review that I have label "spoiler," then
> many
> people won't read the review and therefore can't be drawn to considere
> reading
> the story.
>
> On the other hand, If I can't mention any concrete details, then the review
>
> floats out in space somewhere, simply a catalogue of generalizations. If
> you
> know and trust me, you might read the story, otherwise no matter how many
> ways I can think of insisting that it is interesting and well-written it's
> not
> concrete. (Instead of a reader reading a review and saying "That sounds
> fascinating. I really want to read it." They might read my generalizations
> and
> think "Hmmm. Oshun liked it. But I don't always have the same taste she
> does." I
> don't think one has to include a surpise ending. It's usually enough in
> that
> case to say, the ending really surprised me.
>
>
>
> **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
> music
> scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
> (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112<http://www.tourtracker.com/?NCID=aolmus00050000000112>
> )
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:

>
> I think I have really weird tolerance for spoilers unless they tell
> me the final punch line of a story that is principally written to
> provide that "gasp!" or huge surprise at the end. Or, obviously,
> tell me who the killer is in a mystery novel.
>
> I do think the "spoiler" warnings are great, if they make people
> happy. But I am having a really hard time trying to avoid having to
> use them if I don't have too. It is really hard. Without mentioning
> anything about a story, a review becomes a string of assertions of
> excellence and adjectives.

Well, I always attach it to be sure. Especially since a spoiler can
have a different meaning for somebody else. In the end you just keep
in ticking that box, just to be sure that you won't spoil anyone else.

<snip>

> I want to help showcase stories with my reviews. To me one of the
> huge bonuses of the MEFAs is to expose the best stories of the year
> to a wider audience. I am afraid if I write a review that I have
> label "spoiler," then many people won't read the review and
> therefore can't be drawn to considere reading the story.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to make this a discussion item during
post mortem, to re-evaluate it. Right now it is at it is and it is
left up to the reviewer's discretion to look at their reviews if it
might contain spoilers. It will most certainly not change the way in
how I review a piece, I just select an extra ticky box to be sure. It
doesn't bother me, but then I don't read the reviews prior to reading
the actual story :)

> On the other hand, If I can't mention any concrete details, then the
> review floats out in space somewhere, simply a catalogue of
> generalizations. If you know and trust me, you might read the
> story, otherwise no matter how many ways I can think of insisting
> that it is interesting and well-written it's not concrete. (Instead
> of a reader reading a review and saying "That sounds fascinating. I
> really want to read it." They might read my generalizations and
> think "Hmmm. Oshun liked it. But I don't always have the same taste
> she does." I don't think one has to include a surpise ending. It's
> usually enough in that case to say, the ending really surprised me.

Well I think as long if you don't say what did surprise you (Fëanor
jumping out of a cake for example), you're not spoiling. It are the
details (a death, the identity of a killer/thief ect) that might give
away the clue of a story. Imho of course.

Rhapsody

In a message dated 7/17/2008 3:22:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rhapsodybard@gmail.com writes:

Well I think as long if you don't say what did surprise you (Fëanor
jumping out of a cake for example), you're not spoiling. It are the
details (a death, the identity of a killer/thief ect) that might give
away the clue of a story. Imho of course.

Rhapsody


Actually, the "spoiler" label enabled me to have a lot more fun with a
review of one of your stories than I otherwise would have been able to engage in,
if I had to tiptoe around completely avoiding spoilers. So in that particular
instance it was a real boon for me. I wanted to mention the last few lines
of the story. Because they intrigued me and made me wonder.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/17/2008 3:21:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Larys.HMF@web.de writes:

I'd be curious to know just how many people actually avoid reading
reviews with spoilers... Perhaps we could have a poll?

Imhiriel


That would be fascinating to me.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey guys,

I'm not sure if you were asking that I or the other volunteers set up
a poll on this. I don't think I want to do that, for two main reasons.
First, I'm very busy with RL and don't have the time, I'm afraid! And
also, I don't really want to do this mid-awards. It's been my
experience that people tend to take review results as saying what they
should or shouldn't be doing. So if the results said most people
avoided reviews with spoilers, some people might interpret this as
saying that either they should be avoiding such reviews, or that they
should write reviews keeping in mind that most people would read them
even with a spoiler alert.

I'm not saying you intended that kind of consequences. However, for
that reason I think an official poll on this might not be the best
idea. It is a fascinating topic, though!

Btw, I changed the subject line of this post. If you guys want to keep
on discussing spoilers (which I'm not saying you can't do), maybe you
should change the subject line so people know what they are reading?

Thanks,

Marta

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, heartofoshun@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2008 3:21:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Larys.HMF@... writes:
>
> I'd be curious to know just how many people actually avoid reading
> reviews with spoilers... Perhaps we could have a poll?
>
> Imhiriel
>
>
> That would be fascinating to me.
>
>

I'm curious: what happens if you *don't* know these things in advance
and then read the story? Are you annoyed when you discover X or XX
while actually reading the story? Do you think you've wasted your time
reading it when there are those things that you didn't like? (Which
would speak for those sorts of reviews actually being an advantage for
you in sorting out those stories)

Or is it that you can you tolerate it more if you don't know in advance?

Imhiriel



If the story is a good one in most other respects then finding X in it is less of a blow I think. The quality of the story makes up for it. Also, the plot might be such that I don't see X coming?and so it comes as a surprise?and may even enhance the story depending upon the circumstances even though X is something that I wouldn't normally want to read.

?But if I know in advance than X is going to happen I find that I anticipate it, if you see what I mean, and it lessens my enjoyment of the overall story, knowing that it is going to pop up. The same for knowing the plot twists or ending in advance. If XX is a surprise to me, even if I don't like it, the overall quality of the story and the way that the author came to XX might mean that I do enjoy the story on several levels even though I didn't like the ending.

Because there are so many stories competing in the MEFA's means that I have to have some way of selecting what to read and if I don't know X and/or XX I'm far more likely to choose those stories to read.?The stories that I don't know in advance that contain something that I usually don't read are more likely to be read - because of time constraints I am going to try hard to read those and probably have to skip the ones that I know contain something that isn't normally something that I would enjoy.

Cheers!
?
Marigold






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "aure_enteluva" <melayton@...> wrote:

> I'm not sure if you were asking that I or the other volunteers set up
> a poll on this. I don't think I want to do that, for two main reasons.

No, I think you're right and that *if* we do such a thing, it should
wait until after voting season, when we all have one season of
experience with the spoiler feature under our belts. Post-mortem is a
good idea. I'll try to keep it in mind, and if the wish for a poll is
still there then, I could also set up a poll here or on the
MEFA-discussion site (and hope I can do it right, never having done
this before <g>).

Imhiriel

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, MarigoldCotton@... wrote:

> Because there are so many stories competing in the MEFA's means that

I have to have some way of selecting what to read and if I don't know
X and/or XX I'm far more likely to choose those stories to read.?The
stories that I don't know in advance that contain something that I
usually don't read are more likely to be read - because of time
constraints I am going to try hard to read those and probably have to
skip the ones that I know contain something that isn't normally
something that I would enjoy.

Thank you, Marigold, for explaining your reasoning; I always find it
very interesting to compare with my own strategy and those I know of
others.

Imhiriel