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I have a question about whether the reuse of a poem or song in one tale makes another ineligible to compete.

If a small portion of a poem or song is present in a previously nominated work, does the presence of a longer version of that same poem or song in another story make the new work ineligible to compete?

The specific case I am thinking of involves a WIP that was nominated in 2007, and contains a short version of a poem/song; a longer version of this poem/song was later worked into a different tale written at a later date, which has not yet competed. The poem itself has never been nominated separately at any time.

Can the new tale with the longer version of the song compete?

And if it does compete, will it in any way affect the future competition of the WIP when it is completed?

Thanks for your help! I couldn't quite puzzle this one out myself.

Linawen

Hiya Lin,

I have to say this made me smile - it amazes me the sheer variety of
cases there are in fandoms when it comes to issues like this. Though I
don't suppose this is that different from Tolkien himself writing a poem
for the TCBS and it then appearing in the context of two or three later
tales over the course of his life! I understand why it happens, but it
still amazes me at times.

There are three rules that really come into play:

1. If a story is nominated as a WIP, then that story is only eligible
again when the WIP is finished.
----- This rule goes way back, I think to the start of the awards.

2. Assuming the poem and story are by the same author: If a story is
nominated and it contains a poem, then the poem isn't eligible in the
future. And if the poem is nominated then a story containing it isn't
eligible.
----- This rule affects stories nominated in 2008 or later, since it was
enacted in the 2007 post-mortem.

3. If a series is nominated as a finished piece, then its parts are no
longer eligible; and if a part of a finished series is nominated, then
the whole series is no longer eligible.
----- Again, this affects stories nominated in 2008 or later.

So: what we have here is a story A containing poem 1, and a different
story B containing poem 2. But as it happens poem 2 is a longer version
of poem 1. It's not quite the same as a series, but I'd say it's more or
less analogous, because there's a part of poem 2 that can obviously
function on its own (namely, poem 1). So I'm going to think of those two
things along the same lines as I'd think of a series.

(Here A is the 2007 WIP, B is the other story, 1 is the poem within the
2007 WIP, and 2 is the longer poem published within story B.)

Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
to make all this as simple as I can. :-)

*IF* story A competes again, once it's complete, that means poem 1 won't
be eligible again. This is a pretty clear application of the second rule
above.
--- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete again without dragging poem
1 along for the ride, poem 2 would not be eligible.
--- Moreover, since story B contains poem 2 (which is ineligible to
compete), story B couldn't compete -- *UNLESS* it could be posted
somewhere without the poem. (In some stories the poems aren't that
closely tied in to what the author is doing, and if they can be
extricated, then story B would be eligible again, published without the
poem.)

*IF* poem 1 competed on its own, then story A would not be eligible once
competed. Again, this is a pretty clear application of the second rule
above.
--- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete without poem 1 also
competing, poem 2 wouldn't be eligible.
--- And again, story B faces the same situation as above: it is
ineligible if it includes poem 2, but eligible if it can be posted
somewhere without the poem.

*IF* poem 2 competed on its own, then story B would not be eligible.
This is because of the second rule above: if a poem competes, a story
containing it is no longer eligible.
--- Moreover, poem 1 would be ineligible because it was part of poem 2
and so competed when poem 2 competed.
--- Also, story A faces the same situation as story B above. It would be
eligible again (when completed) only if it could be posted somewhere
without the poem.

Finally: *IF* story B competed on its own, then poem 2 would be
ineligible by the second rule. (Story competing ==> poem included in
story isn't eligible.)
--- Since poem 1 is included in poem 2, and poem 2 is ineligible, poem 1
is also ineligible.
--- Moreover, story A faces the same situation as in the last case: only
eligible if the poem can be extricated, and only then when completed.




Clear as mud? :-S Complicated, I know - but I hope this gives you a feel
for how the rules would be applied.

Marta

linaewen0 wrote:

>
>
>
> I have a question about whether the reuse of a poem or song in one tale
> makes another ineligible to compete.
>
> If a small portion of a poem or song is present in a previously
> nominated work, does the presence of a longer version of that same poem
> or song in another story make the new work ineligible to compete?
>
> The specific case I am thinking of involves a WIP that was nominated in
> 2007, and contains a short version of a poem/song; a longer version of
> this poem/song was later worked into a different tale written at a later
> date, which has not yet competed. The poem itself has never been
> nominated separately at any time.
>
> Can the new tale with the longer version of the song compete?
>
> And if it does compete, will it in any way affect the future competition
> of the WIP when it is completed?
>
> Thanks for your help! I couldn't quite puzzle this one out myself.
>
> Linawen
>

You're amazing, Marta! I knew you'd know what to do with it. :-) I think I get it, but just to be sure...

You said:

> Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
> because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
> effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
> A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
> are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
> the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
> into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
> to make all this as simple as I can. :-)

By this do you mean that if Story B is currently not nominated, it can be nominated now, because Story A and its poem came before the new rules took effect -- but if it is nominated during this (or any subsequent) season of the MEFAs it will mean that Story A (the WIP) will no longer be eligible when it is completed, because of the poem?

In order for Story B to compete without compromising Story A, does it need to have its poem removed?

It's my own stuff I'm talking about, and if Story B is nominated and I become the liaison for myself (which has already happened on another tale) I want to be sure I don't mess up and allow it to proceed if it is in fact ineligible -- or will make something else ineligible later. I don't want to compromise Story A for future competing when completed!

Thanks for your wisdom and being able to sort stuff like this out!

Lin

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta <marta.fandom@...> wrote:
>
> Hiya Lin,
>
> I have to say this made me smile - it amazes me the sheer variety of
> cases there are in fandoms when it comes to issues like this. Though I
> don't suppose this is that different from Tolkien himself writing a poem
> for the TCBS and it then appearing in the context of two or three later
> tales over the course of his life! I understand why it happens, but it
> still amazes me at times.
>
> There are three rules that really come into play:
>
> 1. If a story is nominated as a WIP, then that story is only eligible
> again when the WIP is finished.
> ----- This rule goes way back, I think to the start of the awards.
>
> 2. Assuming the poem and story are by the same author: If a story is
> nominated and it contains a poem, then the poem isn't eligible in the
> future. And if the poem is nominated then a story containing it isn't
> eligible.
> ----- This rule affects stories nominated in 2008 or later, since it was
> enacted in the 2007 post-mortem.
>
> 3. If a series is nominated as a finished piece, then its parts are no
> longer eligible; and if a part of a finished series is nominated, then
> the whole series is no longer eligible.
> ----- Again, this affects stories nominated in 2008 or later.
>
> So: what we have here is a story A containing poem 1, and a different
> story B containing poem 2. But as it happens poem 2 is a longer version
> of poem 1. It's not quite the same as a series, but I'd say it's more or
> less analogous, because there's a part of poem 2 that can obviously
> function on its own (namely, poem 1). So I'm going to think of those two
> things along the same lines as I'd think of a series.
>
> (Here A is the 2007 WIP, B is the other story, 1 is the poem within the
> 2007 WIP, and 2 is the longer poem published within story B.)
>
> Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
> because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
> effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
> A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
> are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
> the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
> into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
> to make all this as simple as I can. :-)
>
> *IF* story A competes again, once it's complete, that means poem 1 won't
> be eligible again. This is a pretty clear application of the second rule
> above.
> --- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete again without dragging poem
> 1 along for the ride, poem 2 would not be eligible.
> --- Moreover, since story B contains poem 2 (which is ineligible to
> compete), story B couldn't compete -- *UNLESS* it could be posted
> somewhere without the poem. (In some stories the poems aren't that
> closely tied in to what the author is doing, and if they can be
> extricated, then story B would be eligible again, published without the
> poem.)
>
> *IF* poem 1 competed on its own, then story A would not be eligible once
> competed. Again, this is a pretty clear application of the second rule
> above.
> --- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete without poem 1 also
> competing, poem 2 wouldn't be eligible.
> --- And again, story B faces the same situation as above: it is
> ineligible if it includes poem 2, but eligible if it can be posted
> somewhere without the poem.
>
> *IF* poem 2 competed on its own, then story B would not be eligible.
> This is because of the second rule above: if a poem competes, a story
> containing it is no longer eligible.
> --- Moreover, poem 1 would be ineligible because it was part of poem 2
> and so competed when poem 2 competed.
> --- Also, story A faces the same situation as story B above. It would be
> eligible again (when completed) only if it could be posted somewhere
> without the poem.
>
> Finally: *IF* story B competed on its own, then poem 2 would be
> ineligible by the second rule. (Story competing ==> poem included in
> story isn't eligible.)
> --- Since poem 1 is included in poem 2, and poem 2 is ineligible, poem 1
> is also ineligible.
> --- Moreover, story A faces the same situation as in the last case: only
> eligible if the poem can be extricated, and only then when completed.
>
>
>
>
> Clear as mud? :-S Complicated, I know - but I hope this gives you a feel
> for how the rules would be applied.
>
> Marta
>
> linaewen0 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a question about whether the reuse of a poem or song in one tale
> > makes another ineligible to compete.
> >
> > If a small portion of a poem or song is present in a previously
> > nominated work, does the presence of a longer version of that same poem
> > or song in another story make the new work ineligible to compete?
> >
> > The specific case I am thinking of involves a WIP that was nominated in
> > 2007, and contains a short version of a poem/song; a longer version of
> > this poem/song was later worked into a different tale written at a later
> > date, which has not yet competed. The poem itself has never been
> > nominated separately at any time.
> >
> > Can the new tale with the longer version of the song compete?
> >
> > And if it does compete, will it in any way affect the future competition
> > of the WIP when it is completed?
> >
> > Thanks for your help! I couldn't quite puzzle this one out myself.
> >
> > Linawen
> >
>

Hi Lin,

> You're amazing, Marta!

Thanks! :-)

> You said:
>
> > Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
> > because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
> > effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
> > A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
> > are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
> > the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
> > into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
> > to make all this as simple as I can. :-)
>
> By this do you mean that if Story B is currently not nominated, it can
> be nominated now, because Story A and its poem came before the new rules
> took effect --

Correct.

Well, to be pedantic about it - it may be ineligible for some completely
unrelated reason like too high a rating or bad URL. But you won't run
into any trouble on *this* count.

> but if it is nominated during this (or any subsequent)
> season of the MEFAs it will mean that Story A (the WIP) will no longer
> be eligible when it is completed, because of the poem?
>

Right. Because Story B *will* fall under the story/poem rule.

> In order for Story B to compete without compromising Story A, does it
> need to have its poem removed?
>

Correct again.

> It's my own stuff I'm talking about, and if Story B is nominated and I
> become the liaison for myself (which has already happened on another
> tale) I want to be sure I don't mess up and allow it to proceed if it is
> in fact ineligible -- or will make something else ineligible later. I
> don't want to compromise Story A for future competing when completed!
>

I understand that concern! Do remember that I'll be checking over your
form for you (I give the final approval on all forms), so you'll have at
least one other pair of eyes dissecting it inch by inch. And if you
can't tell already, I like details. :-)

> Thanks for your wisdom and being able to sort stuff like this out!
>

N/p. It's really more obsessiveness and a firsthand familiarity with the
awards than any great skill. But I'm glad I could help.

Marta

Okay, now that I understand it all properly, here's another muddying question that came to mind, in light of some of the things that were recently brought up over at MEFA Staff about editing nominated stories. :-)

In order to allow Story B to compete without compromising Story A's future eligibility as a completed WIP, can the poem be edited out of Story A (rather than Story B), even though its already been through a nominating season (but is not yet a completed WIP)?

Sorry about all these questions! It's one way of learning to understand the one thing about nominating that had me worried, though. ;-)

Lin

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta <marta.fandom@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Lin,
>
> > You're amazing, Marta!
>
> Thanks! :-)
>
> > You said:
> >
> > > Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
> > > because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
> > > effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
> > > A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
> > > are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
> > > the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
> > > into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
> > > to make all this as simple as I can. :-)
> >
> > By this do you mean that if Story B is currently not nominated, it can
> > be nominated now, because Story A and its poem came before the new rules
> > took effect --
>
> Correct.
>
> Well, to be pedantic about it - it may be ineligible for some completely
> unrelated reason like too high a rating or bad URL. But you won't run
> into any trouble on *this* count.
>
> > but if it is nominated during this (or any subsequent)
> > season of the MEFAs it will mean that Story A (the WIP) will no longer
> > be eligible when it is completed, because of the poem?
> >
>
> Right. Because Story B *will* fall under the story/poem rule.
>
> > In order for Story B to compete without compromising Story A, does it
> > need to have its poem removed?
> >
>
> Correct again.
>
> > It's my own stuff I'm talking about, and if Story B is nominated and I
> > become the liaison for myself (which has already happened on another
> > tale) I want to be sure I don't mess up and allow it to proceed if it is
> > in fact ineligible -- or will make something else ineligible later. I
> > don't want to compromise Story A for future competing when completed!
> >
>
> I understand that concern! Do remember that I'll be checking over your
> form for you (I give the final approval on all forms), so you'll have at
> least one other pair of eyes dissecting it inch by inch. And if you
> can't tell already, I like details. :-)
>
> > Thanks for your wisdom and being able to sort stuff like this out!
> >
>
> N/p. It's really more obsessiveness and a firsthand familiarity with the
> awards than any great skill. But I'm glad I could help.
>
> Marta
>

Hi Lin,

> In order to allow Story B to compete without compromising Story A's
> future eligibility as a completed WIP, can the poem be edited out of
> Story A (rather than Story B), even though its already been through a
> nominating season (but is not yet a completed WIP)?
>

I think that should be okay. In order to be eligible in this case, story
A needs to be

--- completed (since it already ran as a WIP)
--- not use a poem that has already competed (as a stand-alone poem or
as part of a longer story like story B)

And what you're describing sounds like it meets both requirements.

The fact that story A included the poem when it was a WIP is irrelevant,
since that happened back in 2007.

Marta

For something as convoluted as this, Marta - how on earth is a lowly liaison
supposed to 'know' that a small poem or whatever - that has been 'hidden' in
a story - has been used again. There seems to be no way that 'we' can be
aware of such things.

Are we supposed to rely upon the author and perhaps the nominator to pay
attention to this and not use a piece/part of another tale?

It's a little disturbing....

Blessings,
Agape

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Marta <marta.fandom@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Hiya Lin,
>
> I have to say this made me smile - it amazes me the sheer variety of
> cases there are in fandoms when it comes to issues like this. Though I
> don't suppose this is that different from Tolkien himself writing a poem
> for the TCBS and it then appearing in the context of two or three later
> tales over the course of his life! I understand why it happens, but it
> still amazes me at times.
>
> There are three rules that really come into play:
>
> 1. If a story is nominated as a WIP, then that story is only eligible
> again when the WIP is finished.
> ----- This rule goes way back, I think to the start of the awards.
>
> 2. Assuming the poem and story are by the same author: If a story is
> nominated and it contains a poem, then the poem isn't eligible in the
> future. And if the poem is nominated then a story containing it isn't
> eligible.
> ----- This rule affects stories nominated in 2008 or later, since it was
> enacted in the 2007 post-mortem.
>
> 3. If a series is nominated as a finished piece, then its parts are no
> longer eligible; and if a part of a finished series is nominated, then
> the whole series is no longer eligible.
> ----- Again, this affects stories nominated in 2008 or later.
>
> So: what we have here is a story A containing poem 1, and a different
> story B containing poem 2. But as it happens poem 2 is a longer version
> of poem 1. It's not quite the same as a series, but I'd say it's more or
> less analogous, because there's a part of poem 2 that can obviously
> function on its own (namely, poem 1). So I'm going to think of those two
> things along the same lines as I'd think of a series.
>
> (Here A is the 2007 WIP, B is the other story, 1 is the poem within the
> 2007 WIP, and 2 is the longer poem published within story B.)
>
> Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
> because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
> effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
> A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
> are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
> the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
> into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
> to make all this as simple as I can. :-)
>
> *IF* story A competes again, once it's complete, that means poem 1 won't
> be eligible again. This is a pretty clear application of the second rule
> above.
> --- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete again without dragging poem
> 1 along for the ride, poem 2 would not be eligible.
> --- Moreover, since story B contains poem 2 (which is ineligible to
> compete), story B couldn't compete -- *UNLESS* it could be posted
> somewhere without the poem. (In some stories the poems aren't that
> closely tied in to what the author is doing, and if they can be
> extricated, then story B would be eligible again, published without the
> poem.)
>
> *IF* poem 1 competed on its own, then story A would not be eligible once
> competed. Again, this is a pretty clear application of the second rule
> above.
> --- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete without poem 1 also
> competing, poem 2 wouldn't be eligible.
> --- And again, story B faces the same situation as above: it is
> ineligible if it includes poem 2, but eligible if it can be posted
> somewhere without the poem.
>
> *IF* poem 2 competed on its own, then story B would not be eligible.
> This is because of the second rule above: if a poem competes, a story
> containing it is no longer eligible.
> --- Moreover, poem 1 would be ineligible because it was part of poem 2
> and so competed when poem 2 competed.
> --- Also, story A faces the same situation as story B above. It would be
> eligible again (when completed) only if it could be posted somewhere
> without the poem.
>
> Finally: *IF* story B competed on its own, then poem 2 would be
> ineligible by the second rule. (Story competing ==> poem included in
> story isn't eligible.)
> --- Since poem 1 is included in poem 2, and poem 2 is ineligible, poem 1
> is also ineligible.
> --- Moreover, story A faces the same situation as in the last case: only
> eligible if the poem can be extricated, and only then when completed.
>
> Clear as mud? :-S Complicated, I know - but I hope this gives you a feel
> for how the rules would be applied.
>
> Marta
>
> linaewen0 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a question about whether the reuse of a poem or song in one tale
> > makes another ineligible to compete.
> >
> > If a small portion of a poem or song is present in a previously
> > nominated work, does the presence of a longer version of that same poem
> > or song in another story make the new work ineligible to compete?
> >
> > The specific case I am thinking of involves a WIP that was nominated in
> > 2007, and contains a short version of a poem/song; a longer version of
> > this poem/song was later worked into a different tale written at a later
> > date, which has not yet competed. The poem itself has never been
> > nominated separately at any time.
> >
> > Can the new tale with the longer version of the song compete?
> >
> > And if it does compete, will it in any way affect the future competition
> > of the WIP when it is completed?
> >
> > Thanks for your help! I couldn't quite puzzle this one out myself.
> >
> > Linawen
> >
>
>
>



--
Life's been good to me so far!!! Praise God!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Agape,

There are several places where authors are asked about this: one is on the nomination form in the "Previously Competed" field. So as a liaison you can check the form, and if it's marked "Yes, this piece has previously competed as part of another piece, or is a series where part has previously competed," you can discuss with the author.

The other place is early in the nomination letter: "IMPORTANT - If your piece has ever competed in the MEFAs as part of another piece, please discuss this with me BEFORE completing the nomination form (discussed below). This also applies to series, where the individual parts might have competed as stand-alone pieces. There are special rules governing whether these pieces are eligible or not. I want to make sure your piece actually can compete before you do the work of approving your nomination."

So liaisons rely on authors to let them know about such situations.

HTH,
Kathy/Inkling

--- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Agape 4Rivendell <agape4rivendell@...> wrote:
>
> For something as convoluted as this, Marta - how on earth is a lowly liaison
> supposed to 'know' that a small poem or whatever - that has been 'hidden' in
> a story - has been used again. There seems to be no way that 'we' can be
> aware of such things.
>
> Are we supposed to rely upon the author and perhaps the nominator to pay
> attention to this and not use a piece/part of another tale?
>
> It's a little disturbing....
>
> Blessings,
> Agape
>
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Marta <marta.fandom@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hiya Lin,
> >
> > I have to say this made me smile - it amazes me the sheer variety of
> > cases there are in fandoms when it comes to issues like this. Though I
> > don't suppose this is that different from Tolkien himself writing a poem
> > for the TCBS and it then appearing in the context of two or three later
> > tales over the course of his life! I understand why it happens, but it
> > still amazes me at times.
> >
> > There are three rules that really come into play:
> >
> > 1. If a story is nominated as a WIP, then that story is only eligible
> > again when the WIP is finished.
> > ----- This rule goes way back, I think to the start of the awards.
> >
> > 2. Assuming the poem and story are by the same author: If a story is
> > nominated and it contains a poem, then the poem isn't eligible in the
> > future. And if the poem is nominated then a story containing it isn't
> > eligible.
> > ----- This rule affects stories nominated in 2008 or later, since it was
> > enacted in the 2007 post-mortem.
> >
> > 3. If a series is nominated as a finished piece, then its parts are no
> > longer eligible; and if a part of a finished series is nominated, then
> > the whole series is no longer eligible.
> > ----- Again, this affects stories nominated in 2008 or later.
> >
> > So: what we have here is a story A containing poem 1, and a different
> > story B containing poem 2. But as it happens poem 2 is a longer version
> > of poem 1. It's not quite the same as a series, but I'd say it's more or
> > less analogous, because there's a part of poem 2 that can obviously
> > function on its own (namely, poem 1). So I'm going to think of those two
> > things along the same lines as I'd think of a series.
> >
> > (Here A is the 2007 WIP, B is the other story, 1 is the poem within the
> > 2007 WIP, and 2 is the longer poem published within story B.)
> >
> > Now as things stand, the second and third rules don't apply. This is
> > because the story A was nominated in 2007 before the new rules came into
> > effect. So the two poems and story B are both still eligible, and story
> > A is eligible again when it's completed. (B/c by the first rule, WIPs
> > are eligible again when completed.) But if anything is nominated *now*,
> > the new rules about poems and the stories they're published in will come
> > into play, and I think you may need a scorecard to keep count. I'll try
> > to make all this as simple as I can. :-)
> >
> > *IF* story A competes again, once it's complete, that means poem 1 won't
> > be eligible again. This is a pretty clear application of the second rule
> > above.
> > --- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete again without dragging poem
> > 1 along for the ride, poem 2 would not be eligible.
> > --- Moreover, since story B contains poem 2 (which is ineligible to
> > compete), story B couldn't compete -- *UNLESS* it could be posted
> > somewhere without the poem. (In some stories the poems aren't that
> > closely tied in to what the author is doing, and if they can be
> > extricated, then story B would be eligible again, published without the
> > poem.)
> >
> > *IF* poem 1 competed on its own, then story A would not be eligible once
> > competed. Again, this is a pretty clear application of the second rule
> > above.
> > --- Moreover, since poem 2 couldn't compete without poem 1 also
> > competing, poem 2 wouldn't be eligible.
> > --- And again, story B faces the same situation as above: it is
> > ineligible if it includes poem 2, but eligible if it can be posted
> > somewhere without the poem.
> >
> > *IF* poem 2 competed on its own, then story B would not be eligible.
> > This is because of the second rule above: if a poem competes, a story
> > containing it is no longer eligible.
> > --- Moreover, poem 1 would be ineligible because it was part of poem 2
> > and so competed when poem 2 competed.
> > --- Also, story A faces the same situation as story B above. It would be
> > eligible again (when completed) only if it could be posted somewhere
> > without the poem.
> >
> > Finally: *IF* story B competed on its own, then poem 2 would be
> > ineligible by the second rule. (Story competing ==> poem included in
> > story isn't eligible.)
> > --- Since poem 1 is included in poem 2, and poem 2 is ineligible, poem 1
> > is also ineligible.
> > --- Moreover, story A faces the same situation as in the last case: only
> > eligible if the poem can be extricated, and only then when completed.
> >
> > Clear as mud? :-S Complicated, I know - but I hope this gives you a feel
> > for how the rules would be applied.
> >
> > Marta
> >
> > linaewen0 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have a question about whether the reuse of a poem or song in one tale
> > > makes another ineligible to compete.
> > >
> > > If a small portion of a poem or song is present in a previously
> > > nominated work, does the presence of a longer version of that same poem
> > > or song in another story make the new work ineligible to compete?
> > >
> > > The specific case I am thinking of involves a WIP that was nominated in
> > > 2007, and contains a short version of a poem/song; a longer version of
> > > this poem/song was later worked into a different tale written at a later
> > > date, which has not yet competed. The poem itself has never been
> > > nominated separately at any time.
> > >
> > > Can the new tale with the longer version of the song compete?
> > >
> > > And if it does compete, will it in any way affect the future competition
> > > of the WIP when it is completed?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help! I couldn't quite puzzle this one out myself.
> > >
> > > Linawen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Life's been good to me so far!!! Praise God!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Agape 4Rivendell wrote:

>
>
>
> For something as convoluted as this, Marta - how on earth is a lowly liaison
> supposed to 'know' that a small poem or whatever - that has been 'hidden' in
> a story - has been used again. There seems to be no way that 'we' can be
> aware of such things.
>
> Are we supposed to rely upon the author and perhaps the nominator to pay
> attention to this and not use a piece/part of another tale?
>
> It's a little disturbing....
>
> Blessings,
> Agape
>

Hi Agape,

You are supposed to rely on your authors, yes. And on me. :-) You have
my ear, and as I've said several times I am happy to work through
situations like this. Just post to the MEFAStaff group about this.

I understand your concern about the rules. However, it's really the only
way to do things without either

--- making all series ineligible to compete (so just the ficlets can
compete)
--- making all parts of series ineligible (so if a piece is posted as
part of a series, it can't compete on is own)
--- or giving series and parts of series twice as many chances to compete

The last option I'm not willing to do, because it simply isn't fair. The
first two options I'm not crazy about either, because it really does
penalize writers of series.

Which leaves us with our rather complicated rules, and my willingness to
interpret, apply and explain them! As Inkling mentioned authors are told
repeatedly to let you know if their story is a series or part of a
series, and if you need help knowing whether something is eligible,
please just let me know.

Marta

Thanks - as long as the onus is not on me. I would hate to 'approve' a
nomination and then find out later it was not eligible... I suppose that
happens - but I'm anal and like to make sure all the i's are dotted and the
t's are crossed.

Blessings,
Agape

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Marta <marta.fandom@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Agape 4Rivendell wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > For something as convoluted as this, Marta - how on earth is a lowly
> liaison
> > supposed to 'know' that a small poem or whatever - that has been 'hidden'
> in
> > a story - has been used again. There seems to be no way that 'we' can be
> > aware of such things.
> >
> > Are we supposed to rely upon the author and perhaps the nominator to pay
> > attention to this and not use a piece/part of another tale?
> >
> > It's a little disturbing....
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Agape
> >
>
> Hi Agape,
>
> You are supposed to rely on your authors, yes. And on me. :-) You have
> my ear, and as I've said several times I am happy to work through
> situations like this. Just post to the MEFAStaff group about this.
>
> I understand your concern about the rules. However, it's really the only
> way to do things without either
>
> --- making all series ineligible to compete (so just the ficlets can
> compete)
> --- making all parts of series ineligible (so if a piece is posted as
> part of a series, it can't compete on is own)
> --- or giving series and parts of series twice as many chances to compete
>
> The last option I'm not willing to do, because it simply isn't fair. The
> first two options I'm not crazy about either, because it really does
> penalize writers of series.
>
> Which leaves us with our rather complicated rules, and my willingness to
> interpret, apply and explain them! As Inkling mentioned authors are told
> repeatedly to let you know if their story is a series or part of a
> series, and if you need help knowing whether something is eligible,
> please just let me know.
>
> Marta
>
>
>



--
Life's been good to me so far!!! Praise God!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]